TM28/TM30 avoiding fines if on extensions.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Well i am probably a bit thick, i am still confused. My partner owns our house, i have a yellow book. Lets say we want to travel to Chiang Mai from Surin, my Partner has to supply the immigration with a TM 30 to say the farang is leaving the province, in Chiang Mai the hotel makes out a TM 30 online,when we get back my missus has to file another TM 30 to say we are back and i have to file a new TM 28 is that correct ?

No; there is no requirement to report anything when leaving.

The rest is correct to the letter of the law, but in practice it's fine if she does it once for every entry to Thailand; not when travelling within Thailand.

[fcgprg]

Was that my yellow book(yes)Did we own our house(yes showed my name on the chanote and leas, then he said you are already IN THE SYSTEM you don't need to apply.

With a yellow tabien baan you have a 13 digits Thai registration number. You are in the system. Another reason to get one. But another immigration guy somewhere else will still tell you the complete opposite.

With the yellow book as I see it with the 13 digit Thai ID number you must be in the system. Which could easily be found by immigration looking up your ID number on the system.

You speak of 'the system' as tho everything is one cohesive integrated linked up system..

When in Thailand have you ever known that to be the case ??

Everything connected to a specific ID number would be visible .

[NotEinstein]

OK, so this makes sense of our recent experience.

Every time I return from an overseas trip my wife fills in a TM30 as the house owner within 24 hours.

She takes my passport, even though it shouldn't be required, as the details are on the TM30 attachment form.

The processing officer makes my wife complete the bottom slip with my name instead of hers, that is now required to be in my passport, as we discovered last week when visiting the back office with the mother-in-law to verify my residence.

This was required because I had to let my non-imm O marriage visa end, as I had to leave before it was due for extension and wouldn't be back until after expiry. I actually had an extension appointment booked, but because of the 30 days under consideration, it would have still expired while I was away. Upon return with a new 90 day visa I was processed as a new visa first extension, needing to provide divorce papers and a new KR3 from Amphur office on top of the usual.

It seems that a TM30 = TM30+TM28 for private residences.

[LivinLOS]

Anyway, I have done my TM28.. I dont give a hoot about my landlords reporting.. And I will take care not to generate TM30s at hotels. Any attempted fining given that compliance will be met with firm refusal.

Resisting handing over ID when checking into a hotel sounds like a great way to get flagged to immigration/police to come talk to you.

Versus absolutely no downside to just providing ID and let them run the TM30. It's their responsibility anyway, why does it even matter to you if they do it or don't do it?

I just don't see the point. (Other than when checking into a hotel in a place where I really shouldn't be, and then my wife finding out because privacy doesn't exist in this country. I bet if my wife showed up at Immigration they'd readily give her a list of any hotel I ever checked into, from the Four Seasons all the way to the Naughty Inn in Soi Bua Khao.. )

Because then I legally need to do another TM28 within 24 hours when I come home.. And legally should be doing one there at the hotel destination..

I am sure this isnt going to end up applied.. But thats the rules as she was saying them.

[LivinLOS]

With the yellow book as I see it with the 13 digit Thai ID number you must be in the system. Which could easily be found by immigration looking up your ID number on the system.

You speak of 'the system' as tho everything is one cohesive integrated linked up system..

When in Thailand have you ever known that to be the case ??

Everything connected to a specific ID number would be visible .

Well a captain in the immigration department said differently. I even asked this question explicitly. She stated neither the TM47 90 day reporting, or the yellow housebook, negated the need to do the TM28/TM30 reporting.

Until I hear otherwise I will take her word over your guess.

[steve73]

Even if you use a short-time hotel and they want your PP, you don't need to submit a TM28 unless you stay at that same place for more than 24 hours.... if you keep all your stays to less than 24 hours, you shouldn't even need to resubmit one when you return home (maybe).

I was under the impression that even if you leave Thailand, as long as you return to your previously registered address (TM28/30) you do not need to resubmit... or is this now required?

It would be useful if we could submit TM28's and TM30's (as private individuals) on-line in the same way we can (sometimes) do 90 day reports.

One further point I like clarified.. If a farangs' Thai partner rents a house in their name, then the Thai renter can submit the TM30 - no need of the "owner" to be required to submit it. So if the farang rents in their own name, then they should also be able to submit BOTH the TM30 and 28 (if supported by lease contract). Many farang rent private houses owned by Thais currently residing overseas, where it is totally impossible for the owner to submit the TM30...

Many corners of this latest can of worms still to unearth..... IMO.

[LivinLOS]

Many corners of this latest can of worms still to unearth..... IMO.

Precisely why I included all the angles and issues in the long OP..

Its a huge can of worms.. opening it leads all kinds of ways, none of which seem really good.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

One further point I like clarified.. If a farangs' Thai partner rents a house in their name, then the Thai renter can submit the TM30 - no need of the "owner" to be required to submit it. So if the farang rents in their own name, then they should also be able to submit BOTH the TM30 and 28 (if supported by lease contract).

Not in the understanding of many immigration department officials. Which I can understand, because TM30 in nature is designed for "some home/hotel property owner/manager" to report on foreigners staying at his place. It is implied in the minds of many that this would be a Thai person or entity.

So you probably avoid some hassle if you just let your Thai partner submit it. Like LivinLOS said: even the owner's mia noi can do it; they basically don't give a %@ as long as it results in a form that 'looks' normal and has a valid address on it, in the unlikely case that anyone ever digs it up. And normal would mean submitted by a Thai entity as per the apparent intent of the TM30 regulation.

A whole lot of what any official in Thailand decides to do on any given day is determined by his mood and his desire to cover his butt, the latter usually taking precedence.

Edited December 3, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[sandyf]

I was under the impression that even if you leave Thailand, as long as you return to your previously registered address (TM28/30) you do not need to resubmit... or is this now required?

Required for what exactly. As I posted earlier, I had no problem doing a 90 day online so despite what some are suggesting there is no link between the two.

It really is a question of playing it by ear with your own office rather than what my take place elsewhere. When I did the last extension my wife was just handed the form as previously. We had been out of the country 3 times since the previous submission but nothing was said, no warnings or threats of fines.

Until they say otherwise I will continue as normal, even if a fine is imposed it would be cheaper and more convenient than running back and forth to immigration several times a year.

Not so much a can of worms as a hornets nest and if you keep on poking you could get stung.

[narkeddiver]

Does the TM28 need to be done in person?

If I go to Bangkok for the weekend and get back on Sunday evening do I have to take Monday off work to go and do the TM28 reporting?

[Sparkles]

Was that my yellow book(yes)Did we own our house(yes showed my name on the chanote and leas, then he said you are already IN THE SYSTEM you don't need to apply.

With a yellow tabien baan you have a 13 digits Thai registration number. You are in the system. Another reason to get one. But another immigration guy somewhere else will still tell you the complete opposite.

With the yellow book as I see it with the 13 digit Thai ID number you must be in the system. Which could easily be found by immigration looking up your ID number on the system.

You speak of 'the system' as tho everything is one cohesive integrated linked up system..

When in Thailand have you ever known that to be the case ??

I don't believe there is a system. It was the immigration guy that said I was in the system not us.Now if we go to the old Immigration office tomorrow, not Promenada, I guarantee there will be another explanation or fine. A friend whent to a Police station in Petchabun and they laughed and told him to have nice day,The whole thing is a joke ,the only good news is its a max 2,000b max fine, at the moment ! Like many others I notice when we book in at a resort the staff would rather have my wifes ID than my passport details ,must save then a lot of paperwork.In the past it was my passport they wanted.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Does the TM28 need to be done in person?

If I go to Bangkok for the weekend and get back on Sunday evening do I have to take Monday off work to go and do the TM28 reporting?

Well, first of all Monday is a holiday so you already have a day off. And Immigration will be closed.

But as for taking a day off: by all means, but doing the TM28 took about 5 minutes at Promenada; it's all done by the intern chicklets.

Bring signed copies of your passport (photo page and page with entry stamp and Departure card. So all that's needed is taking an early lunch so that you're there at 11:40am or whatever.

Let us know how it goes. BTW: I wouldn't do this every single time I travel somewhere within Thailand, but it doesn't hurt to do it once per entry into Thailand for the location that you stay at.

Edited December 4, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[idontknow]

Thought I would share my experience today at the Airport Immigration location.

We have been living in the same house for 3 years. I read about this topic and felt we needed to do the right thing (go submit the TM28 and TM30) as our visas are up for renewal.

Our landlord has never heard of any of this. We sat in the office, explained our story, and they fined our landlord 3,200 Baht, "because we have lived here so long"

The officer told us they are being very strict now to make landlords afraid of disobeying the law.

[soalbundy]

The way i see it, i may be wrong, it doesn't matter that much if you haven't left the country at all. When i applied for for my extension last week and had to force the official to do my 90 day report ( you don't need that until your extension is confirmed) nobody mentioned a TM 28 / 30 but then i haven't left the country for 10 years.

[davehowden]

So if I have the TM28/ TM30 for an address in CM and I go to BKK for a night does anyone really believe that they will know that I have been away through their incredibly non-integrated TM28/ TM30 system!!

[NancyL]

Thought I would share my experience today at the Airport Immigration location.

We have been living in the same house for 3 years. I read about this topic and felt we needed to do the right thing (go submit the TM28 and TM30) as our visas are up for renewal.

Our landlord has never heard of any of this. We sat in the office, explained our story, and they fined our landlord 3,200 Baht, "because we have lived here so long"

The officer told us they are being very strict now to make landlords afraid of disobeying the law.

This is another example of the office at the Immigration office near the airport being quite strict. Remember that's an "enforcement" office.

The office at Promenada Mall is for submitting TM28/TM30s and the reports are that they are not as strict about fining people, even when they are grossly overdue.

Incidentally, did your landlord receive a receipt for the 3200 baht fine?

[NancyL]

Does the TM28 need to be done in person?

If I go to Bangkok for the weekend and get back on Sunday evening do I have to take Monday off work to go and do the TM28 reporting?

Several Immigration officers AND the juristic person mgr in our building have told me new reports need to be filed when you re-enter the country, not when you return from a trip within the country.

Doesn't make sense to me, but everyone is telling the same story.

I'm very lucky at our condo office files the TM30 reports for us and issues a receipt for our passport on the spot. Must remember to give the staff a nice bonus during the holidays!

[mania]

Thought I would share my experience today at the Airport Immigration location.

We have been living in the same house for 3 years. I read about this topic and felt we needed to do the right thing (go submit the TM28 and TM30) as our visas are up for renewal.

Our landlord has never heard of any of this. We sat in the office, explained our story, and they fined our landlord 3,200 Baht, "because we have lived here so long"

The officer told us they are being very strict now to make landlords afraid of disobeying the law.

This is another example of the office at the Immigration office near the airport being quite strict. Remember that's an "enforcement" office.

The office at Promenada Mall is for submitting TM28/TM30s and the reports are that they are not as strict about fining people, even when they are grossly overdue.

Incidentally, did your landlord receive a receipt for the 3200 baht fine?

As his/her name suggests "they dont know"

I would not put too much faith in a poster who just joined TVF to post this 1 & only BS post

Edited December 5, 2015 by mania

[idontknow]

Thought I would share my experience today at the Airport Immigration location.

We have been living in the same house for 3 years. I read about this topic and felt we needed to do the right thing (go submit the TM28 and TM30) as our visas are up for renewal.

Our landlord has never heard of any of this. We sat in the office, explained our story, and they fined our landlord 3,200 Baht, "because we have lived here so long"

The officer told us they are being very strict now to make landlords afraid of disobeying the law.

This is another example of the office at the Immigration office near the airport being quite strict. Remember that's an "enforcement" office.

The office at Promenada Mall is for submitting TM28/TM30s and the reports are that they are not as strict about fining people, even when they are grossly overdue.

Incidentally, did your landlord receive a receipt for the 3200 baht fine?

As his/her name suggests "they dont know"

I would not put too much faith in a poster who just joined TVF to post this 1 & only BS post

[idontknow]

Yes, I did in fact join TVF to post this one and only BS post. Thank you for pointing that out.

Yes, Immigration did give a receipt for the fine.

Yes, during the time at immigration I felt this was a BS situation.

I posted to make others aware of what has happened

[ThaiPauly]

Yes, I did in fact join TVF to post this one and only BS post. Thank you for pointing that out.

Yes, Immigration did give a receipt for the fine.

Yes, during the time at immigration I felt this was a BS situation.

I posted to make others aware of what has happened

So does your Landlord know he has been fined?

[MadMac]

So who are they going to fine if you own your place? Getting just more ridiculous.

[davehowden]

MANIA:

You say:

" As his/her name suggests "they dont know"

I would not put too much faith in a poster who just joined TVF to post this 1 & only BS post"

Why do you feel the need to be so rude to somebody who is offering their experience of the situation?

[idontknow]

ThaiPauly:

Yes, we went with our landlord to the office in order to do the necessary reporting.

[NancyL]

When I've observed people reporting TM28/TM30 at Imm. Prom. it usually seems to be a Thai landlord or real estate agent and the tenants coming in together (looking rather confused about what they have to do and why) They are served quickly and no money (for fines) seems to change hands.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I'm very lucky at our condo office files the TM30 reports for us and issues a receipt for our passport on the spot. Must remember to give the staff a nice bonus during the holidays!

Will you also be giving them a nice bonus for paying their income tax, or complying with whichever other regulations apply to condominiums?

Submitting TM30 information is just a requirement on their part for being in the condo business.

So if I have the TM28/ TM30 for an address in CM and I go to BKK for a night does anyone really believe that they will know that I have been away through their incredibly non-integrated TM28/ TM30 system!!

Of course they will. Plug in your Departure card number (or passport number + nationality) and all your hotel stays will pop right up. Although as has been said many times, you only need to do this when returning from abroad, in their current understanding/implementation.

Our landlord has never heard of any of this. We sat in the office, explained our story, and they fined our landlord 3,200 Baht, "because we have lived here so long"

The officer told us they are being very strict now to make landlords afraid of disobeying the law.

I think this depends a whole lot on how you go in, and who you meet and what their mood is. My wife went into the airport office, with me having stayed at her house since she bought it 8 years ago, and not having done TM30 reports on other rental places ever, since about 2 years or so. No charge, no fine. Although at the same time there was a guesthouse owner in there, who was also going to be let off without a fine, but then he volunteered that his dad had been running the guesthouse for the last 30 years. So then they said that therefore they really should have known about the requirement and he was fined after all.

I think it's best to keep it simple, do it at the Promenada office and don't volunteer any information.

Edited December 6, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So who are they going to fine if you own your place? Getting just more ridiculous.

Your condominium owner/manager.

[LivinLOS]

So if I have the TM28/ TM30 for an address in CM and I go to BKK for a night does anyone really believe that they will know that I have been away through their incredibly non-integrated TM28/ TM30 system!!

Of course they will. Plug in your Departure card number (or passport number + nationality) and all your hotel stays will pop right up. Although as has been said many times, you only need to do this when returning from abroad, in their current understanding/implementation.

Quite clearly not the understanding of the officer I spoke with. Trips out of the province made a need to refile.

But when I tried to drill into how long she was evasive.. One night 'ok' but more than one week 'no no.. too long'..

And yes I am sure its very much officer and mood dependent but how fair is that ?? That multi 1000b fines are just being randomly handed out for a law that even the officers directed to explaining it, cant and wont define.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

And yes I am sure its very much officer and mood dependent but how fair is that ?? That multi 1000b fines are just being randomly handed out for a law that even the officers directed to explaining it, cant and wont define.

Yes, I too moved to Thailand for the world class civil service, governance and consistent and fair law enforcement. I'm a little disappointed. :/

Edited December 6, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Dante99]

And yes I am sure its very much officer and mood dependent but how fair is that ?? That multi 1000b fines are just being randomly handed out for a law that even the officers directed to explaining it, cant and wont define.

Yes, I too moved to Thailand for the world class civil service, governance and consistent and fair law enforcement. I'm a little disappointed. :/

Exactly, none of this grey area stuff, absolutely muct be black and white just like the othere countries of the world.

Who are these guys anyway?