New York Times puts gun control editorial on Page 1

[jpinx]

This isn't 1990, when newspapers held a lot of weight. NYT is still big, I get that, but 'Front Page' can't be nearly as noteworthy as now.

Did you see what was on front page of Twitter, drudgereport, etc......??

Not just the NYT -- the topic is high in the headline list in many news sources of many countries. A lot of people are looking at USA and wondering if it has lost the place,,,,,,

[up2u2]

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

[tai4de2]

Well, you did kinda leave out a few key parts of the dialog:

You: Can we stop allowing blind people to drive?

Me: I could be down with that. What did you have in mind?

You: First, all car owners must admit that they and all Republicans are racist, Trump-supporting knuckle-dragging inbred redneck morons.

Me: What does that have to do with stopping blind people from driving?

You: It would be theraputic in reducing a car culture which fosters blind driving

You: Assault cars -- those with a gas tank with capacity greater than 10 gallons -- would be banned.

Me: What does that have to do with stopping blind people from driving?

You: Stop parroting Automobile Club of America talking points.

...

Me: DON'T TAKE MY CAR!

Much of the logic (illogic) is enough to make most sane people want to sit down and weep.

Imagine.... same logic.... Can we stop allowing blind people to drive? Answer: DON'T TAKE MY CAR! How would that, in any way, be a rational response?

[Chicog]

Unfortunately the douchebags that run the NRA have a very effective propaganda machine.

Normal people's version: "We should look at ways to reduce gun violence, including limiting weapons that are clearly meant for war, not hunting or target shooting".

NRA: "Obama wants to take away ALL of our guns!".

Normal people: "We should look at gun violence from a public health perspective".

NRA: "Obama wants to take away ALL of our guns!".

etc. etc. etc.

You can't argue with retards that swallow that kind of logic.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Chicog

[movieplay]

I realize there alot of stupid people out there, but i'm not one of them so fk them.. there is also alot of stupid people racing on public roads like they are in a Formula 1 event like Paul Walker-they kill themselves and innocent others..many more people die in careless traffic accidents that would have been prevented if they wern't so stuipid..

but you can't take away everyone's freedom because there are stupid people.. at the end of the day no gun in the house means you are at the mercy of any home invader AND with guns banned they will know you are defenseless especially when they are armed.. i'll say it again and you can't assiagn a statistic to this:

major factor in america that is keeping the home invaders at bay is the fact that the home invaders know america is an armed society and when they break in, they are playing Russian roulette with their lives.

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

[notmyself]

I believe there are already some restrictions to gun ownership such as felony conviction and age. If I am correct then what is the reasoning behind such restrictions?

[up2u2]

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found thatmore than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

[Pinot]

Unfortunately the douchebags that run the NRA have a very effective propaganda machine.

Normal people's version: "We should look at ways to reduce gun violence, including limiting weapons that are clearly meant for war, not hunting or target shooting".

NRA: "Obama wants to take away ALL of our guns!".

Normal people: "We should look at gun violence from a public health perspective".

NRA: "Obama wants to take away ALL of our guns!".

etc. etc. etc.

You can't argue with retards that swallow that kind of logic.

Excellent point, mame. It's impossible to argue illogic. It's wrestling with a pig.

The GOP base is convinced it is living in a dystopian novel where the end of America is imminent and only they, this plucky band of armed, mobility-scooter-riding freedom fighters, can save it.

[jpinx]

What's that old saying about -- "Never argue with an idiot -- he'll only drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience!"

[Chicog]

The GOP base is convinced it is living in a dystopian novel where the end of America is imminent and only they, this plucky band of armed, mobility-scooter-riding freedom fighters, can save it.

Too funny!

[chuckd]

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.

Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found thatmore than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.

• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

From a report dated 2000. It's only 14 years out of date.

" In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property"

Interestingly, 1% of 318.9 Million is..3,189,000.

[stevenl]

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.

Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found thatmore than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.

• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

From a report dated 2000. It's only 14 years out of date.

" In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property"

Interestingly, 1% of 318.9 Million is..3,189,000.

From your link

"However, our results should not be extrapolated to obtain population based estimates of the absolute number of gun uses. If we have as little as 1% random misclassification, our results could be off by orders of magnitude."

"While it is sometimes presumed that self defense gun use is beneficial for society, that notion has been viewed with increasing skepticism. It is noteworthy that in prison surveys, about half of convicted felons who have fired a gun claim to have done so in self defense."

"The possibility of using a gun in a socially useful manner—against a criminal during the commission of a crime—will rarely, if ever, occur for the average gun owner. By contrast, at any other moment, the use of a gun against another human is illegal, and socially undesirable. Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution or on when it is proper to use a firearm, have many opportunities for inappropriate gun use. People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with others in the course of a lifetime. We might expect that unlawful “self defense” gun uses will outnumber the legitimate and socially beneficial ones."

etc.

[chuckd]

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.

Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found thatmore than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.

• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

From a report dated 2000. It's only 14 years out of date.

" In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property"

Interestingly, 1% of 318.9 Million is..3,189,000.

From your link

"However, our results should not be extrapolated to obtain population based estimates of the absolute number of gun uses. If we have as little as 1% random misclassification, our results could be off by orders of magnitude."

"While it is sometimes presumed that self defense gun use is beneficial for society, that notion has been viewed with increasing skepticism. It is noteworthy that in prison surveys, about half of convicted felons who have fired a gun claim to have done so in self defense."

"The possibility of using a gun in a socially useful manner—against a criminal during the commission of a crime—will rarely, if ever, occur for the average gun owner. By contrast, at any other moment, the use of a gun against another human is illegal, and socially undesirable. Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution or on when it is proper to use a firearm, have many opportunities for inappropriate gun use. People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with others in the course of a lifetime. We might expect that unlawful “self defense” gun uses will outnumber the legitimate and socially beneficial ones."

etc.

Or in plain English...caveat emptor.

[stevenl]

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.

Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found thatmore than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.

• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

From a report dated 2000. It's only 14 years out of date.

" In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property"

Interestingly, 1% of 318.9 Million is..3,189,000.

From your link

"However, our results should not be extrapolated to obtain population based estimates of the absolute number of gun uses. If we have as little as 1% random misclassification, our results could be off by orders of magnitude."

"While it is sometimes presumed that self defense gun use is beneficial for society, that notion has been viewed with increasing skepticism. It is noteworthy that in prison surveys, about half of convicted felons who have fired a gun claim to have done so in self defense."

"The possibility of using a gun in a socially useful manner—against a criminal during the commission of a crime—will rarely, if ever, occur for the average gun owner. By contrast, at any other moment, the use of a gun against another human is illegal, and socially undesirable. Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution or on when it is proper to use a firearm, have many opportunities for inappropriate gun use. People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with others in the course of a lifetime. We might expect that unlawful “self defense” gun uses will outnumber the legitimate and socially beneficial ones."

etc.

Or in plain English...caveat emptor.

In plain English: the article you quoted is concluding something completely different from your claims here.

Maybe next time better read the whole article you're quoting, some people do read.

[chuckd]

From a report dated 2000. It's only 14 years out of date.

" In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property"

Interestingly, 1% of 318.9 Million is..3,189,000.

From your link

"However, our results should not be extrapolated to obtain population based estimates of the absolute number of gun uses. If we have as little as 1% random misclassification, our results could be off by orders of magnitude."

"While it is sometimes presumed that self defense gun use is beneficial for society, that notion has been viewed with increasing skepticism. It is noteworthy that in prison surveys, about half of convicted felons who have fired a gun claim to have done so in self defense."

"The possibility of using a gun in a socially useful manner—against a criminal during the commission of a crime—will rarely, if ever, occur for the average gun owner. By contrast, at any other moment, the use of a gun against another human is illegal, and socially undesirable. Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution or on when it is proper to use a firearm, have many opportunities for inappropriate gun use. People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with others in the course of a lifetime. We might expect that unlawful “self defense” gun uses will outnumber the legitimate and socially beneficial ones."

etc.

Or in plain English...caveat emptor.

In plain English: the article you quoted is concluding something completely different from your claims here.

Maybe next time better read the whole article you're quoting, some people do read.

Sometimes people that do read, do not understand.

What you have provided is a disclaimer from the years old survey that says. We may be mistaken by orders of magnitude but trust us anyway.

He felt compelled to put the 1% figure out there.

I felt compelled to show how ridiculous his 1% really is.

[Publicus]

Veritas in posting.

The article cautioned against extrapolating.

Period.

[up2u2]

Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers.
• A woman's chances of being killed by her abuser increase more than 5 times if he has access to a gun.
• One study found that women in states with higher gun ownership rates were 4.9 times more likely to be murdered by a gun than women in states with lower gun ownership rates.

[SgtRock]

For all the ban the gun crew.

In the UK yesterday.

A man who died during a police operation to foil an alleged plot to free prisoners was shot by a firearms officer, the IPCC has confirmed.

http://news.sky.com/story/1604402/prison-van-plot-man-was-shot-dead-by-police

The last sentence will show you how effective draconian gun control measures are.

There have also been more than 350 firearms-related incidents in the capital so far this year, up 15% on the 2014 figure.

[up2u2]

For all the ban the gun crew.

In the UK yesterday.

A man who died during a police operation to foil an alleged plot to free prisoners was shot by a firearms officer, the IPCC has confirmed.

http://news.sky.com/story/1604402/prison-van-plot-man-was-shot-dead-by-police

The last sentence will show you how effective draconian gun control measures are.

There have also been more than 350 firearms-related incidents in the capital so far this year, up 15% on the 2014 figure.

15%? Get back to us when it is 450%. That is the difference in gun violence between a sensibly restricted gun ownership Nation like the UK and a society awash with totally unrestricted gun ownership like America.

'350 firearms related incidents' is a Saturday afternoon in Chicago.

All this report is saying is gun controls need to be tightened and policed better.

[SgtRock]

up2u2, on 12 Dec 2015 - 07:58, said:

SgtRock, on 12 Dec 2015 - 07:44, said:

For all the ban the gun crew.

In the UK yesterday.

Quote

A man who died during a police operation to foil an alleged plot to free prisoners was shot by a firearms officer, the IPCC has confirmed.

http://news.sky.com/story/1604402/prison-van-plot-man-was-shot-dead-by-police

The last sentence will show you how effective draconian gun control measures are.

Quote

There have also been more than 350 firearms-related incidents in the capital so far this year, up 15% on the 2014 figure.

15%? Get back to us when it is 450%. That is the difference in gun violence between a sensibly restricted gun ownership Nation like the UK and a society awash with totally unrestricted gun ownership like America.

'350 firearms related incidents' is a Saturday afternoon in Chicago.

All this report is saying is gun controls need to be tightened and policed better.

The 350 firearms related incidents and % increase are for ONE City, not the entire UK.

Other than an outright ban for everyone, UK gun controls cannot get any tighter.

What the report is saying is that the UK's draconian laws work on law abiding Citizens, but mean jack for criminals.

[up2u2]

15%? Get back to us when it is 450%. That is the difference in gun violence between a sensibly restricted gun ownership Nation like the UK and a society awash with totally unrestricted gun ownership like America.

'350 firearms related incidents' is a Saturday afternoon in Chicago.

All this report is saying is gun controls need to be tightened and policed better.

The 350 firearms related incidents and % increase are for ONE City, not the entire UK.

Other than an outright ban for everyone, UK gun controls cannot get any tighter.

What the report is saying is that the UK's draconian laws work on law abiding Citizens, but mean jack for criminals.

Yes in an entire year compared to a Saturday afternoon in Chicago. What it means is tighter restrictions and an emphasis on policing those laws. More guns = more gun violence. It is pretty simple to get your head around.

This 'criminals don't obey laws so nations should not have laws' is idiots thinking out loud. I have no idea why people buy into this stupidity.

[SgtRock]

up2u2, on 12 Dec 2015 - 08:17, said:

SgtRock, on 12 Dec 2015 - 08:06, said:

up2u2, on 12 Dec 2015 - 07:58, said:

15%? Get back to us when it is 450%. That is the difference in gun violence between a sensibly restricted gun ownership Nation like the UK and a society awash with totally unrestricted gun ownership like America.

'350 firearms related incidents' is a Saturday afternoon in Chicago.

All this report is saying is gun controls need to be tightened and policed better.

The 350 firearms related incidents and % increase are for ONE City, not the entire UK.

Other than an outright ban for everyone, UK gun controls cannot get any tighter.

What the report is saying is that the UK's draconian laws work on law abiding Citizens, but mean jack for criminals.

Yes in an entire year compared to a Saturday afternoon in Chicago. What it means is tighter restrictions and an emphasis on policing those laws. More guns = more gun violence. It is pretty simple to get your head around.

This 'criminals don't obey laws so nations should not have laws' is idiots thinking out loud. I have no idea why people buy into this stupidity.

I am merely pointing out that policing those laws are not working, especially in the UK.

More guns does not equal more gun violence, as is evidenced by various reports. There are Countries with fewer guns than the US but have more gun violence. It is the mindset that is the problem, not guns.

You are now twisting my words. I did not and never will say that Nations should not have laws because criminals do not obey them. I will advocate a law being looked at changed when it is clearly not working.

What I have said on this thread is that, of course the US has a problem. Even with its draconian gun laws so does the UK. The answer is not draconian gun laws, neither is a free for all in gun ownership.

A balance needs to be found and a severe change of mindset is needed.

[Pinot]

Americans need gun laws, the more draconian, the better. The NRA owns the Republican party thus we have ridiculous gun laws.

[chuckd]

Americans need gun laws, the more draconian, the better. The NRA owns the Republican party thus we have ridiculous gun laws.

[55Jay]

Americans need gun laws, the more draconian, the better. The NRA owns the Republican party thus we have ridiculous gun laws.

He's got to spice up his life somehow. Weird but as they say, horses for courses.

[Chicog]

The 350 firearms related incidents and % increase are for ONE City, not the entire UK.

Other than an outright ban for everyone, UK gun controls cannot get any tighter.

What the report is saying is that the UK's draconian laws work on law abiding Citizens, but mean jack for criminals.

Just be aware that "firearms related incidents" does not mean simply shootings.

They are recorded separately as already posted.

[tai4de2]

I believe there are already some restrictions to gun ownership such as felony conviction and age. If I am correct then what is the reasoning behind such restrictions?

The reasoning is that contrary to the hysterical anti-gun wingnuts' talking points, the law and most Americans actually do support "reasonable restrictions," and the ones you mentioned are among them.

[CMNightRider]

Britain banned guns in 1997. Britain now has a knife attack every 4 minutes. That's about 130,000 a year. Please don't sign on with all this anti-gun nonsense, otherwise we could end up like Britain.

[CMNightRider]

After viewing many of the more moronic anti-gun comments on this site, I feel blessed to be an American,. As an American citizen, I still have the right to own a firearm. God bless America, and pass the ammunition.

[simple1]

Britain banned guns in 1997. Britain now has a knife attack every 4 minutes. That's about 130,000 a year. Please don't sign on with all this anti-gun nonsense, otherwise we could end up like Britain.

Numbers were based upon a survey. UK government figures for England & Wales for the year ending March 2015, the police recorded 26,370 offences involving a knife or sharp instrument.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/year-ending-march-2015/stb-crime-march-2015.html#tab-Offences-involving-knives-and-sharp-instruments

In the bigger picture there are far less homicides per 100,00 people p.a. in the UK compared to the USA