Full bilateral ties only after democracy restored: US envoy

[LomSak27]

If you are on the troll team, and hey, there is nothing wrong with that. You need to up your game, or find yourself slinging burgers or another boiler room gig.

Hey don't let that bother you

[jayboy]

The Thai TV news showed the meeting and showed the General greeting the Americans in a welcoming and affable manner. The narrative only presented positive sounding quotes. The picture shown here must be after the meeting and reflects the General not being pleased with the results. I really do not think the US should be lecturing any country regarding their internal affairs. The United States shows a lack of consistency in its dealings with countries. Egypt had a coup and was not criticized because the coup leader ousted a democratically elected leader who leaned towards being an Islamist. The Obama administration shows it knows little of what happens in Thailand or the real reason behind the coup. The American Ambassador's speech in a public forum was an error in policy and shows the lack of understanding on behalf of the US.

You are entitled to your opinion and I share your views that the approach to Egypt (not just the US but the Western world) shows a lack of consistency.

Where your post becomes absurd is your claim that the US knows little about Thailand or the reasons behind the coup.

[JAG]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Neither of them has ever been a true democracy. USA is a republic, while Thailand is a plutocracy.

Depends on your definition of democracy. Splitting hairs methinks:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/

I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.

The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

........................

To be sure, in addition to being a representative democracy, the United States is also a constitutional democracy, in which courts restrain in some measure the democratic will. And the United States is therefore also a constitutional republic. Indeed, the United States might be labeled a constitutional federal representative democracy. But where one word is used, with all the oversimplification that this necessary entails, “democracy” and “republic” both work. Indeed, since direct democracy — again, a government in which all or most laws are made by direct popular vote — would be impractical given the number and complexity of laws that pretty much any state or national government is expected to enact, it’s unsurprising that the qualifier “representative” would often be omitted. Practically speaking, representative democracy is the only democracy that’s around at any state or national level.

What is more they don't bang you up incommunicado in a military Gaol for liking Facebook posts!

[Thaidream]

It's not that simple. Thailand was not a democracy before as the election was bought and paid for by a fugitive living in another country. Its called money politics. It's the same type of politics that runs the United States only there it is more sophisticated. Had the former Prime Minister remained in power there would most likely been an ending that would be a lot worse than what happened. Everyone would prefer a fair and honest election where money cannot buy anyone- but please tell me how that is possible and who the candidates are that would be running in that election. If an election was called today, Thailand would have the same old recycled dinosaurs of the past. You might call it democracy but most people would call it for what it really is- money politics. As far as my comment on Egypt- it shows the inconsistency of American foreign policy which is why the American vision of the World is tainted and shows a lacking of understanding.

In regard to the US not understanding the real reasons for the coup- I will clarify this by saying the US may know the real reasons behind the coup but their public statements show a lack of understanding regarding Thai culture and sentiments.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Thaidream

[craigt3365]

Full relations can not be restored until elections happen again. It's the law in the US.

[jayboy]

The Thai TV news showed the meeting and showed the General greeting the Americans in a welcoming and affable manner. The narrative only presented positive sounding quotes. The picture shown here must be after the meeting and reflects the General not being pleased with the results. I really do not think the US should be lecturing any country regarding their internal affairs. The United States shows a lack of consistency in its dealings with countries. Egypt had a coup and was not criticized because the coup leader ousted a democratically elected leader who leaned towards being an Islamist. The Obama administration shows it knows little of what happens in Thailand or the real reason behind the coup. The American Ambassador's speech in a public forum was an error in policy and shows the lack of understanding on behalf of the US.

I guarantee Obama and his administration know exactly what's going on here. More than we do....as exposed by Wikileaks.

Agreed.I am always amazed though I'm not an American that some query the US's ability to understand Thailand.The US has along with Australia the greatest store of talented Thai focused scholars, an intense diplomatic and military relationship over many decades, the wonderful Cornell Thai Studies establishment, a strong Thai focus in the State Department, a strong and well staffed local Embassy presence, a direct line based on personal friendships with high ranking military officers etc etc.

And yet there are still those, judging by their posts not the sharpest knives in the drawer, who think the US "doesn't get Thailand".

[LannaGuy]

It's not that simple. Thailand was not a democracy before as the election was bought and paid for by a fugitive living in another country. Its called money politics. It's the same type of politics that runs the United States only there it is more sophisticated. Had the former Prime Minister remained in power there would most likely been an ending that would be a lot worse than what happened. Everyone would prefer a fair and honest election where money cannot buy anyone- but please tell me how that is possible and who the candidates are that would be running in that election. If an election was called today, Thailand would have the same old recycled dinosaurs of the past. You might call it democracy but most people would call it for what it really is- money politics. As far as my comment on Egypt- it shows the inconsistency of American foreign policy which is why the American vision of the World is tainted and shows a lacking of understanding.

In regard to the US not understanding the real reasons for the coup- I will clarify this by saying the US may know the real reasons behind the coup but their public statements show a lack of understanding regarding Thai culture and sentiments.

election 'bought'? you are making it up sir! even the Dems admit it had no impact and as for 'same old recycled dinosaurs' you must think this lot are 'fresh liberated free-thinkers'? interesting misconception of what has happened

[Thaidream]

While I agree with most of your post- I still question the fact that an American Ambassador would speak in a public forum on a subject that was bound to stir the ire of the Thai government. His comments would have had to been approved by the US State Department. A real diplomat would have expressed his comments in private with his counterpart or requested a meeting with the PM himself. To me, this shows a lack of understanding regarding Thai sensitivities and does nothing to advance a democratic Thailand. While there are many Thai scholars around the World in both academia and government, that does not mean that the people in power in America actually utilize their expertise.

[LannaGuy]

While I agree with most of your post- I still question the fact that an American Ambassador would speak in a public forum on a subject that was bound to stir the ire of the Thai government. His comments would have had to been approved by the US State Department. A real diplomat would have expressed his comments in private with his counterpart or requested a meeting with the PM himself. To me, this shows a lack of understanding regarding Thai sensitivities and does nothing to advance a democratic Thailand. While there are many Thai scholars around the World in both academia and government, that does not mean that the people in power in America actually utilize their expertise.

Because they will want to show the watching world they are taking a stand AND in private they would have said a lot, lot more trust me!

[Thaidream]

Elections have been bought in Thailand for eons as well as in the United States. We can disagree on this point if you like. No, I certainly do not think that the current regime in Thailand is a liberal, free thinking and progressive bunch. I find some of the comments made by the PM to be rude and patronizing. However, I also find that there is no young, upcoming politicians in Thailand who express any of the philosophy needed that will propel the country forward. The questions remains- who are the leaders of the future and where will they be found. It's not just Thailand who is suffering from a dearth of leaders. Take a look at the American election and the debates that are going on now. There is not one candidate that has a plan to help America's poor or sinking middle class. The so called leader of democracy looks pretty hopeless to me,. Yet, they see fit to lecture other countries.

[Srikcir]

The photo is interesting. Under most circumstances, both parties would want to be seen as having a respectful meeting. I am wondering if the photo was an official one given to The Nation, or The Nation had some choices. Either way, it sends a message of disrespect, and is sure to give some satisfaction to those opposed to the US. But efforts like this tend to backfire. What do we remember: the snub by the PM, or the PM's petulance?

The article itself is the usual disjointed stenography typical of the Thai press. A bunch of quotes strung together, with poor attribution (wait, who is being quoted in this sentence...??).

I sometimes wonder if The Nation does this on purpose to make the government look disorganized, but I think journalistic incompetence is the easier explanation.

Interesting photo. Prayut is giving Russel a brush-off mai pen rai (whatever) handshake.

Very disrespectful. But not so surprising attitude towards a representative of an elected democractic republic.

[Plutojames88]

Thais need to realise their sensitivities are the problem and need addressing.

Over reacting to ""likes "" on Facebook isn't an internal matter.

It's a universal breach of human rights.

Thais may choose to crawl around carpets and spend their time on their knees .

That's all well and good.

But in the 21st century the line is drawn when you lock people up for offending another human being.

And quite Frankly the Thais deserve far more scorn

[Plutojames88]

Thais need to realise also this junta is non elected and under international law deserve little respect.

They are in fact still banned from visiting Australia so make no illusions on correct protocol .

They are dont qualify for careful consideration

Edited December 17, 2015 by Plutojames88

[Enoon]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Neither of them has ever been a true democracy. USA is a republic, while Thailand is a plutocracy.

"The United States is the world's oldest surviving federation. It is a constitutional republic and representative democracy, "in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law".

[Enoon]

The photo itself looks like the PM had been told politely but in no uncertain terms his Government must be replaced by a democratically elected one where the result is fully decided by the populace or your F&/@ed in the future.

The face shows a powerful egocentric man brought to ground and now forced meekly for cameras sake to shake hands but utterly disappointed and shaken by what's been said.

A fly on the wall might have been invaluable if only it could tell us.

Given Russell 's form he might have really shaken the guy up.

But "" off the record "" stuff tends to meet Thai spin ...."" You need to do your homework and study why we do this stuff "" BS .

Similarly the Yanks might have said "" look keep locking kids up and well end up bombing your mother F&8king barracks ....got it"".?

Perhaps wishful thinking ....but the big guy certainly looks aghast

And Mr Russell has just a hint of "How do you like them apples?" written on his face?

[robblok]

The photo is interesting. Under most circumstances, both parties would want to be seen as having a respectful meeting. I am wondering if the photo was an official one given to The Nation, or The Nation had some choices. Either way, it sends a message of disrespect, and is sure to give some satisfaction to those opposed to the US. But efforts like this tend to backfire. What do we remember: the snub by the PM, or the PM's petulance?

The article itself is the usual disjointed stenography typical of the Thai press. A bunch of quotes strung together, with poor attribution (wait, who is being quoted in this sentence...??).

I sometimes wonder if The Nation does this on purpose to make the government look disorganized, but I think journalistic incompetence is the easier explanation.

Interesting photo. Prayut is giving Russel a brush-off mai pen rai (whatever) handshake.

Very disrespectful. But not so surprising attitude towards a representative of an elected democractic republic.

Sure but what gives the US the right to interfere. Look at the mess they made in the middle east. Besides they won't boycot Thailand too much so all it is is some talk nothing that harms the current PM. Lot of hot air from the US without any bite. If they were serious there would be sanctions now it is just some meaningless words.

All talk no action, besides as others have pointed out the US supports dictators as long as it is in their best interests.

[LannaGuy]

Elections have been bought in Thailand for eons as well as in the United States. We can disagree on this point if you like. No, I certainly do not think that the current regime in Thailand is a liberal, free thinking and progressive bunch. I find some of the comments made by the PM to be rude and patronizing. However, I also find that there is no young, upcoming politicians in Thailand who express any of the philosophy needed that will propel the country forward. The questions remains- who are the leaders of the future and where will they be found. It's not just Thailand who is suffering from a dearth of leaders. Take a look at the American election and the debates that are going on now. There is not one candidate that has a plan to help America's poor or sinking middle class. The so called leader of democracy looks pretty hopeless to me,. Yet, they see fit to lecture other countries.

Bernie Saunders but let's not keep bringing up America's domestic politics back on topic? yes, I agree, Thailand has no emerging, clean, leader BUT that does not make it right

[JAG]

It's not that simple. Thailand was not a democracy before as the election was bought and paid for by a fugitive living in another country. Its called money politics. It's the same type of politics that runs the United States only there it is more sophisticated. Had the former Prime Minister remained in power there would most likely been an ending that would be a lot worse than what happened. Everyone would prefer a fair and honest election where money cannot buy anyone- but please tell me how that is possible and who the candidates are that would be running in that election. If an election was called today, Thailand would have the same old recycled dinosaurs of the past. You might call it democracy but most people would call it for what it really is- money politics. As far as my comment on Egypt- it shows the inconsistency of American foreign policy which is why the American vision of the World is tainted and shows a lacking of understanding.

In regard to the US not understanding the real reasons for the coup- I will clarify this by saying the US may know the real reasons behind the coup but their public statements show a lack of understanding regarding Thai culture and sentiments.

Actually you know it is quite simple.The Thai people chose the last government in an election which was recognised Internationally and Domestically as free.Just about every sentient being who cast a vote for Pheu-Thai understood that Yingluck was the candidate and what's more understood the relationship between and involvement of Thaksin with that party. They had voted for him twice before, a and they voted for his proxies twice.In 2014, faced with the likelihood that he would win again, his opponents ensured that the election was prevented, and then the military took power.

The rest of your post is just blether, an attempt to justify a junta regime because you prefer that to an elected government you dislike.

Cut to the chase - it is as simple as that.

[2fishin2]

Elections have been bought in Thailand for eons as well as in the United States. We can disagree on this point if you like. No, I certainly do not think that the current regime in Thailand is a liberal, free thinking and progressive bunch. I find some of the comments made by the PM to be rude and patronizing. However, I also find that there is no young, upcoming politicians in Thailand who express any of the philosophy needed that will propel the country forward. The questions remains- who are the leaders of the future and where will they be found. It's not just Thailand who is suffering from a dearth of leaders. Take a look at the American election and the debates that are going on now. There is not one candidate that has a plan to help America's poor or sinking middle class. The so called leader of democracy looks pretty hopeless to me,. Yet, they see fit to lecture other countries.

There are no young leaders because the Junta does not foster any relationships nor allow anybody to do so. There are NO free-thinking people except from colleges/universities. The Junta will not allow any of that on their watch and have been arresting anybody attempting any so called free speech.

They "lecture" other countries because they can and are a world leader. They invest MILLIONS of US $ into the country and are asked for even more. When is the last time Thailand gave anything to another country? They cant even keep their own affairs in order.

Thailand is doomed forever until the people wake up and realize the country is their own and not a bunch of military grunts hiding behind "a veil"

Again the reason Thailand has no upcoming young leaders is because the junta and military do not want it and therefore will not allow it to happen. I need to point out that the military only allows their own views to be expressed how about a couple examples....the demonstration at the US embassy, and SUTHEP which they allowed to happen as a excuse to take the country back from the people. Need to also remind you that the recent student protest about the park was shut down even before they arrived at the park.

Your arguments are selective and do not reflect the current state of affairs in the least. They are factually incorrect.

Edited December 17, 2015 by 2fishin2

[craigt3365]

The photo is interesting. Under most circumstances, both parties would want to be seen as having a respectful meeting. I am wondering if the photo was an official one given to The Nation, or The Nation had some choices. Either way, it sends a message of disrespect, and is sure to give some satisfaction to those opposed to the US. But efforts like this tend to backfire. What do we remember: the snub by the PM, or the PM's petulance?

The article itself is the usual disjointed stenography typical of the Thai press. A bunch of quotes strung together, with poor attribution (wait, who is being quoted in this sentence...??).

I sometimes wonder if The Nation does this on purpose to make the government look disorganized, but I think journalistic incompetence is the easier explanation.

Interesting photo. Prayut is giving Russel a brush-off mai pen rai (whatever) handshake.

Very disrespectful. But not so surprising attitude towards a representative of an elected democractic republic.

Sure but what gives the US the right to interfere. Look at the mess they made in the middle east. Besides they won't boycot Thailand too much so all it is is some talk nothing that harms the current PM. Lot of hot air from the US without any bite. If they were serious there would be sanctions now it is just some meaningless words.

All talk no action, besides as others have pointed out the US supports dictators as long as it is in their best interests.

What sanctions would you recommend? And if they did so, you'd be complaining they are not minding their own business. The EU has also suspended diplomatic relations with Thailand.

As for best interests, name one country that doesn't do this? Just one.

P.S. the mess in the ME was started a long time ago. The US has made it worse, but it's been a mess for a long time. Caused by an entirely different set of players.

[robblok]

The photo is interesting. Under most circumstances, both parties would want to be seen as having a respectful meeting. I am wondering if the photo was an official one given to The Nation, or The Nation had some choices. Either way, it sends a message of disrespect, and is sure to give some satisfaction to those opposed to the US. But efforts like this tend to backfire. What do we remember: the snub by the PM, or the PM's petulance?

The article itself is the usual disjointed stenography typical of the Thai press. A bunch of quotes strung together, with poor attribution (wait, who is being quoted in this sentence...??).

I sometimes wonder if The Nation does this on purpose to make the government look disorganized, but I think journalistic incompetence is the easier explanation.

Interesting photo. Prayut is giving Russel a brush-off mai pen rai (whatever) handshake.

Very disrespectful. But not so surprising attitude towards a representative of an elected democractic republic.

Sure but what gives the US the right to interfere. Look at the mess they made in the middle east. Besides they won't boycot Thailand too much so all it is is some talk nothing that harms the current PM. Lot of hot air from the US without any bite. If they were serious there would be sanctions now it is just some meaningless words.

All talk no action, besides as others have pointed out the US supports dictators as long as it is in their best interests.

What sanctions would you recommend? And if they did so, you'd be complaining they are not minding their own business. The EU has also suspended diplomatic relations with Thailand.

As for best interests, name one country that doesn't do this? Just one.

P.S. the mess in the ME was started a long time ago. The US has made it worse, but it's been a mess for a long time. Caused by an entirely different set of players.

I don't recommend any sanctions but just words are not going to cut it. So its all hot air not backed up by anything. So its just an act because if they were serious they would do more then just this.

Same with the EU if they were serious they would ramp up sanctions, and they are not. So both the US and EU don't care enough to make problems over this.

For the record I am against the US interfering in other countries business, seen them do it to my country to with their idiot drug laws that they changed back now. Now if there is a humanitarian crisis people dying by the thousands sure.. but otherwise stop messing around.

As for the middle east your off base the US made it many times worse as it was, and every time they invaded they left behind a bigger mess. (as for the humanitarian crisis I was talking about they made them over there not solved them) Just look at how much people get killed on a day to day basis by terrorists in Irak and how many died a day during Saddam. (sorry for going OT but it just shows that the US makes a mess all over the globe) For the record I got nothing against Americans, just against their foreign policy so please don't take it personal.

[toybits]

Wow! Frosty the Snowman is probably in town.

[oneday]

It is widely believed that his attitude toward the junta and the military-led government has led to a chill in bilateral ties since the May 22, 2014 coup.

...and by the state department sending him back for these talks it says he and what he says is fully supported by the US government. Bravo.

Prayut responded to Russel's comments by saying that his government was trying to achieve a balance between democracy and human rights as well as national security and stability.

Now this just kills me. If you have full and real Democracy then humans right will not be an issue. It will come naturally; there is no balancing needed. Also, Democracy and human rights have nothing to do with "National Security". It is so sad and troubling to see this government use that excuse for what they do time and time again.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Weird, what a curious photo accompanying the article. In this case, is the photo really worth a 1000 words?

1. It barely looks like they're shaking hands, just barely.

2. P is looking away, not at R, in fact away from him, with a so-dour look on his face.

Hardly the stuff of normal diplomatic niceties.

Perhaps R doesn't understand the meaning of Thainess. Or perhaps P got taken to the diplomatic woodshed.

[scorecard]

Weird, what a curious photo accompanying the article. In this case, is the photo really worth a 1000 words?

1. It barely looks like they're shaking hands, just barely.

2. P is looking away, not at R, in fact away from him, with a so-dour look on his face.

Hardly the stuff of normal diplomatic niceties.

Perhaps R doesn't understand the meaning of Thainess. Or perhaps P got taken to the diplomatic woodshed.

And perhaps the yank is overstepping the mark.

Is he also talking this direct to the PMs of Malaysia and Singapore and the many other countries in the world that are not copies of the amazing and pure US model of democracy and are not complying with US demands to immediately be copies of the amazing and pure model of democracy?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Not throwing Thais in jail for liking Facebook pages would be a good start, even if not "pure" democracy, wouldn't you agree??

BTW, it's not only the U.S. that's looking with dismay at what's going on here. Add the UK to that club, and probably a lot of other countries that simply don't have the cojones or place in the world to publicly say so.

[Thaidream]

Most of the Thais that I know have grown weary over the debate of whether Thaksin and his minions were good or bad for Thailand. Most people just want to get on with their lives and have a living income. I, for one, believe Thaksin and his nominees were a disaster for Thailand. The corruption was at an all time high and he used an American political model of seeming to give groups political pork while doing little to actually to move the country forward. Yingluck was a disaster, attempting to ram an amnesty bill through that would set the stage for the Thai messiah to return as a phoenix rising from his perch from abroad. In addition, she destroyed Thailand's rice industry and did nothing to help citizens cope with the flood.

Along comes Suthep and his merry band posing as the savior of the masses causing more disruptions in the Kingdom that was causing a massive problem just to move around Bangkok. Prior to that we had a group seize the International Airport and an armed camp by another group set up in the middle of downtown Bangkok.

If such a thing happened in our own countries- I have every reason to believe martial law would be declared and the military would move in. It has happened many times in American history especially during the civil rights days. Thailand's military had every right and duty to move in and attempt to sort out the chaos. To do this, they had to seize the mantle of government and to prevent it from happening again and they have to impose some restrictions. One of the real problems is that the leader of the pack is not very skilled at explaining his positions and his goals. I would agree that it is time to scale back some of the rhetoric and restrictions. The use of Section 44 to make decisions is a very dangerous power and has eliminated the give and take that is needed to hopefully reach a consensus and a good decision. While I support why the Junta had to seize power, it is time for them to realize the people are starting to become restive and move the Kingdom more towards elected leadership. The future problem is going to be how to find good, young, articulate leadership that will move the country into the 21st Century . Thailand has huge potential but it needs to be cultivated. .

Edited December 17, 2015 by Thaidream

[MZurf]

Weird, what a curious photo accompanying the article. In this case, is the photo really worth a 1000 words?

1. It barely looks like they're shaking hands, just barely.

2. P is looking away, not at R, in fact away from him, with a so-dour look on his face.

Hardly the stuff of normal diplomatic niceties.

Perhaps R doesn't understand the meaning of Thainess. Or perhaps P got taken to the diplomatic woodshed.

It really is a priceless photo. There you see the face of a man that's constantly surrounded by sycophants right after having been given some honest opinions from a person that has absolutely no fear (nor respect) of him.

[Squeegee]

The interesting picture may be because it was the best The Nation could get, from an odd angle after the handshake is almost over. Meanwhile someone hails the PM and he turns round to them as said handshake is finishing.

That's one completely neutral explanation that covers everything in the picture, is realistic and yet has no politic-gossipy 'he must have said, she must have said.'

In support of this take, note the location of the diplomats, to the right of the pic: seems a photoshoot may have been taken from the left and The Nation were in the cheap seats.

Having said all that, by the looks and sounds of things and given the context... he must have said, she must have said!

Edited December 17, 2015 by Squeegee

[Jools]

Meddling.....always meddling. USA should take its own advice.