UK Residents in Thailand - The harsh truth about the NHS service

[evadgib]

A FoI request might establish what happened to the 10 year rule.

Related link:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35128887

[soalbundy]

Lucky for me I've never been outside the EU.

Wonder how they found out she had been living in the USA?

NB : it is all based on examining PASSPORTS. You now have to present them for hospital procedures in the UK - i have done this recently. So it's simple - ah madam you landed in the US in 2010 (for example) and your passport shows no returns to the UK until now (2015), and only short trips to (say) Mexico and Canada in the intervening 5 years. Conclusion : you live in the US !

you want to see my passport? but i don't have one, i always go to Brighton on holiday

[Pdavies99]

Lucky for me I've never been outside the EU.

Wonder how they found out she had been living in the USA?

NB : it is all based on examining PASSPORTS. You now have to present them for hospital procedures in the UK - i have done this recently. So it's simple - ah madam you landed in the US in 2010 (for example) and your passport shows no returns to the UK until now (2015), and only short trips to (say) Mexico and Canada in the intervening 5 years. Conclusion : you live in the US !

What utter rubbish!! Firstly UK passports do not show date of entry or date of exit to the UK.

NHS hospitals would have no reason to ask a british person for his passport and indeed he could say he does not have one.

Secondly the UK government dont even know how many foreign overstayers there in the UK as they are not ever stamped out of the UK at immigration, so how would they know dates from a Uk passport, other than entry dates in other countries.

Look at the rules, yes if you are granted residency in another country then issues can occur, but this is Thailand who have long and laborious hoops to jump through and cost to gain a residency permit.(and for what?)

Of course maybe if you state you live abroad then you can get issues, but like many UK passport holders they are always entitled to immeduite NHS care if they say they have returned permanently??? Who is to say different?

Finally living in Thailan does not grant you residency in Thailand in general, more likely you have a tourist or retirement extension which is not residency and look at your passport, you are a resident domicile UK.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Pdavies99

[darren84310]

A change made just in April this year, but that's what you get for electing a Conservative government. I'm inclined to think that people get what they deserve when voting for that lot.

I don't have to worry, I've got enough to supply my health care needs, so screw people who haven't : it's the Tory way!

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

IMHO I think that at the next general election, The Labour party if they are still under Jeremy Corbyn will not win, the Tories who will not be under Big Dave Cameron will lose a lot of seats, the Lib/Dems under Tim Fallon (I had to look who it was on Wikipedia) shot their bolt last time probably don't stand much chance either. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond probably won't do that much out of Scotland.

To me that leaves Nigel Farage with UKIP, the Green Party under Natalie Bennett and a hodgepodge of other parties with no clear ideas or directions to fight the Tories.

For myself I truly believe that if UKIP don't win they will be a very strong opposition party to the winners.

Then perhaps things may start to get better for us expats and for the UK as a whole.

Best thing for the UK would be Donald Trump to win the presidency and start telling the PC brigade to go do one.... when people see that all the hype about him creating WW3 is only hype and the USA becomes more successful... then the UK might just vote in UKIP.

Most people just can't see through their dislike for Trump's character.

[thonglorjimmy]

This thread is at least the third on this issue in the last few weeks.

I complained to Jeremey Hunt, though as expected my letter never made it past the Correspondence Unit. In their reply to me they advised that there were difficult issues facing the NHS and they had to protect it for future generations. They went on to say that my NI contributions meant nothing as they were used to fund benefits, adding that the NHS is funded from general taxation.

I responded by advising that I was fully aware that my 44 years didn't entitle me to NHS cover, that's why I didn't mention it, I added that their generic response wasn't helpful and indicated to me that they hadn't actually read my grievance.

I went onto to thank them for confirming that the NHS is funded from general taxation adding that as a current UK taxpayer, at up to 40%, I should therefore be covered. I added that having had health issues here I'm finding it difficult to obtain cover, so they were in effect forcing me to consider returning to the UK where I will be covered from day one. I suspect they are relying on the probability that very few people would actually return.

They told me that they would pass on my concerns to the Policy Unit and get back to me, no response to date and I'm not holding my breath.

[MrTee]

Lucky for me I've never been outside the EU.

Wonder how they found out she had been living in the USA?

NB : it is all based on examining PASSPORTS. You now have to present them for hospital procedures in the UK - i have done this recently. So it's simple - ah madam you landed in the US in 2010 (for example) and your passport shows no returns to the UK until now (2015), and only short trips to (say) Mexico and Canada in the intervening 5 years. Conclusion : you live in the US !

you want to see my passport? but i don't have one, i always go to Brighton on holiday

I've never been asked for my passport. I know exactly what Id say if they did ask me.

The only time folk asked for passports is if they are suspected of being a health tourist.

Anyone with an NHS number and\or NHS history wouldn't be asked.

[tebee]

Having just looked at the regulations - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/474278/Implementing_overseas_charging_regulations_2015.pdf - I can help wondering if the cost of trying to work out is any particular person should be charged is going to be more that the charges they can make and recover !

Checking passports won't tell them all the time - I'm English but live in France most of the time , though I go back to the UK both visiting and working and spend 3-6 months in Thailand each year. But no one stamps my passport between UK and France and I have no French visa as the need for both are negated by EU free movement regulations. I have a couple of Thai one-year-by-marriage visas in my passport, but I'm never in Thai for the whole of that year. They would have to check each entry/exit pair made complicated that I'm been to other counties too.

[chiang mai]

Lucky for me I've never been outside the EU.

Wonder how they found out she had been living in the USA?

NB : it is all based on examining PASSPORTS. You now have to present them for hospital procedures in the UK - i have done this recently. So it's simple - ah madam you landed in the US in 2010 (for example) and your passport shows no returns to the UK until now (2015), and only short trips to (say) Mexico and Canada in the intervening 5 years. Conclusion : you live in the US !

What utter rubbish!! Firstly UK passports do not show date of entry or date of exit to the UK.

NHS hospitals would have no reason to ask a british person for his passport and indeed he could say he does not have one.

Secondly the UK government dont even know how many foreign overstayers there in the UK as they are not ever stamped out of the UK at immigration, so how would they know dates from a Uk passport, other than entry dates in other countries.

Clearly if you state you live abroad then you can get issues, but like many UK passport holders they are always entitled to immeduite NHS care if they say they have returned permanently??? Who is to say different?

I recommend you read the documents in the link that I posted earlier, they address most of the points you raise.

In summary, passports don't show departure from the UK but they do show the most recent departure from another country, aka a departure stamp from Thailand and from that, along with the rest of the stamps in your passports, assumptions can be made or not and further questions asked.

OK so you simply say, I don't have a passport, what comes next. Likely they will ask for your address in the UK and proof of it, along with evidence of a UK bank account and recent activity on that account (as per the NHS check list of questions to be asked). Another check might be the electoral register, are you on it.

As for being entitled to immediate care: you would have to say that you have returned permanently and have some proof this was the case, the NHS check list suggests looking for the disposal of assets in the foreign country and/or sale of overseas property and/or transfer of funds to the UK, from overseas.

Another aspect to consider is that even if you do declare that you are in the UK to stay, you cannot be considered resident in under three months (I believe), this according to the UK government residency tests - http://www.cambridgetax.co.uk/ctp/New_Residence_Rules.html

In summary, I think perhaps you, like many other people who will be reading this thread, are only just now coming to understand the scope and impact of the changes and have yet to believe that they could be so severe and limiting, understandable really, it takes time to register, it certainly did with me.

[MAJIC]

First observation - she was given the treatment she needed regardless of who she was, where she was from or her ability to pay.

Second observation - the bill is not enforceable to the US where she lives

Third observation - she's a resident of the US, why does she not have travel insurance to come to the UK?

If she had travel insurance, or indeed if her health insurance in the US covers her for travel, they pick up the bill for the risk they received payment for and it is therefore right and proper for the NHS to claim the payment.

Expats in Thailand ought perhaps pay more attention to who will pay their medical bills if they face a similar medical emergency in Thailand.

British expats in Thailand who say they will never set foot back in the UK need not pay any attention to what the NHS does, they're never going to use its services (or so they claim).

Couldn't agree more. Someone I know living a very unhealthy life style had an enormous hospital bill here in Thailand which could not be paid..eventually was discharged...no payment.

Was that a Thai???

[theoldgit]

I've never been asked for my passport. I know exactly what Id say if they did ask me.

The only time folk asked for passports is if they are suspected of being a health tourist.

Anyone with an NHS number and\or NHS history wouldn't be asked.

Whether we want to accept it or not various NHS Trusts are being proactive in enforcing these rules, indeed not everyone has a passport, but they can soon check your address and ascertain if you're on the Electoral Register and if you pay Council Tax, if you have an address, are on the Electoral Register and pay Council Tax then I suspect you'd be fine.

There is at least one regular and well respected TV member who has been caught out by these new rules already.

It's totally unfair and morally wrong but we can huff and puff as much as we like, but there's a good chance we could get caught out.

[Ian Curtis]

So, if they are refusing to honour the fact that we have contributed then perhaps they will refund all our NHS contributions. In my case from 1954

[jacky54]

When I was home last time I presented my NHS medical card at the local large medical center to get the address changed. Person on reception said he had never seen one before gave it me back and told me it was not worth bothering. I certainly would not be handing over my passport.

[chiang mai]

So, if they are refusing to honour the fact that we have contributed then perhaps they will refund all our NHS contributions. In my case from 1954

Only if you want to give up your UK state pension also!

[Konini]

In one of the documents in the link it says that the home office and NHS are linked and information shared - your passport number goes into the system and your movements in and out of UK are checked to ensure that you are a resident and entitled to care.

As I read it passport info is only requested if you tell them or they suspect that you live overseas, but they will enter your name, address DOB and get a match if they are not 100% sure that you are resident. In the future, it will be everybody treated, schooled, council taxed, tv licenced, pretty much everything all on one big database. Big brother will catch up with everyone, the cross checks will be (if they are not already) automated and people will be caught out.

Bit of a bugger if you still pay tax on your pension or superannuation. The rule is the same in Australia - we still pay taxes there and are officially resident, but Medicare can refuse us cover if they suspect then prove that we've been out of the country for a certain amount time, not sure how long, we go back once or twice a year to touch base and take care of business but I'm not sure that's enough.

[Pdavies99]

Lucky for me I've never been outside the EU.

Wonder how they found out she had been living in the USA?

NB : it is all based on examining PASSPORTS. You now have to present them for hospital procedures in the UK - i have done this recently. So it's simple - ah madam you landed in the US in 2010 (for example) and your passport shows no returns to the UK until now (2015), and only short trips to (say) Mexico and Canada in the intervening 5 years. Conclusion : you live in the US !

What utter rubbish!! Firstly UK passports do not show date of entry or date of exit to the UK.

NHS hospitals would have no reason to ask a british person for his passport and indeed he could say he does not have one.

Secondly the UK government dont even know how many foreign overstayers there in the UK as they are not ever stamped out of the UK at immigration, so how would they know dates from a Uk passport, other than entry dates in other countries.

Look at the rules, yes if you are granted residency in another country then issues can occur, but this is Thailand who have long and laborious hoops to jump through and cost to gain a residency permit.(and for what?)

Of course maybe if you state you live abroad then you can get issues, but like many UK passport holders they are always entitled to immeduite NHS care if they say they have returned permanently??? Who is to say different?

Finally living in Thailan does not grant you residency in Thailand in general, more likely you have a tourist or retirement extension which is not residency and look at your passport, you are a resident domicile UK.

My apologies for getting annoyed, but really read the rules, they are in general talking about non UK passport holders or UK passport holders who have taken up residency in another country, simply living in Thailand on a Visa does not grant you Thai residency.

[chiang mai]

And you probably never will be Thai resident, no matter how long you stay, that's irrelevant.

Also, you need to understand the new UK residency rules in conjunction with the NHS changes, for it all to make sense.

[Konini]

you want to see my passport? but i don't have one, i always go to Brighton on holiday

They don't need to see it - as in my post above, the systems are now linked and once your name, date of birth and NI number are entered into the NHS computer it can easily be compared to the Home Office computer which logs arrivals and departures. From the wording of the link on Information Sharing, I would say that it is not automated yet, but as a former code writer I'd say it's coming in the future, once the system has been bedded in and bugs sorted out. The government of every country wants one central database; no democracy has been or will ever be able to achieve that, but 'sharing information' allows all of the individual systems to be linked. I would wager that there are similar documents on information sharing on the DVLC site, your council tax site etc, etc, etc.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist and don't believe in the new world order or any of that nonsense, I'm just sitting here looking at systems that have been built to be able to be linked to each other and surmising that the government will be able to link everything up at some time in the not too distant future.

[chiang mai]

+1 the Australian system is nightmarish in that respect, Immigration automatically reports departure and arrival dates to the Pension folks at Centrelink/point/thingy. It is the way of the future I'm afraid.

[billd766]

A change made just in April this year, but that's what you get for electing a Conservative government. I'm inclined to think that people get what they deserve when voting for that lot.

I don't have to worry, I've got enough to supply my health care needs, so screw people who haven't : it's the Tory way!

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

IMHO I think that at the next general election, The Labour party if they are still under Jeremy Corbyn will not win, the Tories who will not be under Big Dave Cameron will lose a lot of seats, the Lib/Dems under Tim Fallon (I had to look who it was on Wikipedia) shot their bolt last time probably don't stand much chance either. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond probably won't do that much out of Scotland.

To me that leaves Nigel Farage with UKIP, the Green Party under Natalie Bennett and a hodgepodge of other parties with no clear ideas or directions to fight the Tories.

For myself I truly believe that if UKIP don't win they will be a very strong opposition party to the winners.

Then perhaps things may start to get better for us expats and for the UK as a whole.

You can't be much of an opposition with one seat - and I don't see the Torys bringing in proportional representation during the current parliament.

First past the post means that in every constituency you only need perhaps 5 more votes than the next party to win the seat. The Tory party has been running since the 19th century and the UKIP since 1991, some 24 years. I believe that at the next election they will gain far more than 1 seat. If proportional representation was in force at the last election they would have had over 80 seats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party

UKIP was founded in 1991 by the historian Alan Sked as the Anti-Federalist League, a single-issue Eurosceptic party. Renamed UKIP in 1993, the party adopted a wider right-wing platform and gradually increased its support. Under Farage's leadership, from 2009 the party tailored its policies towards the white working-class, before making significant breakthroughs in the 2013 local elections and the 2014 European elections, where UKIP received the most votes. At the 2015 general election, the party gained the third largest vote share and one seat in the House of Commons.

[NoshowJones]

"It is probably only a matter of time before they get wise and seize your passport until you pay". The NHS has no authority over your passport at all.

I may be wrong, but it seems the lady did not use a UK address when she went to the hospital.

If I had to go back to the UK for hospital treatment, and they gave me a bill, I would tear it up and throw it on the floor in front of them.

[NoshowJones]

The continued decline of a once great nation,despicable beyond belief how they can shun their own only to allow thousands of immigrants the same very rights they are denying those that have kept the cogs of social security turning for so long.

RIP Great Britain.

Great post, but I don't think anyone alive today can ever remember the UK as "a great nation".

[i claudius]

If you have never informed anyone that you have left ,have a UK address and go to the doctor when you are over ,they will not know you live abroad ,a friend of mine needed an operation ,he flew over ,got a private consultation ,about 150 quid ,and was given a date about 6 months in the future ,he came back here and a week before it was due flew to the UK he is now back here after having his operation ,no one asked him anything and it cost him nothing ,now this is not second hand as I saw him off at the airport and picked him up some weeks later

[NoshowJones]

A change made just in April this year, but that's what you get for electing a Conservative government. I'm inclined to think that people get what they deserve when voting for that lot.

I don't have to worry, I've got enough to supply my health care needs, so screw people who haven't : it's the Tory way!

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

IMHO I think that at the next general election, The Labour party if they are still under Jeremy Corbyn will not win, the Tories who will not be under Big Dave Cameron will lose a lot of seats, the Lib/Dems under Tim Fallon (I had to look who it was on Wikipedia) shot their bolt last time probably don't stand much chance either. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond probably won't do that much out of Scotland.

To me that leaves Nigel Farage with UKIP, the Green Party under Natalie Bennett and a hodgepodge of other parties with no clear ideas or directions to fight the Tories.

For myself I truly believe that if UKIP don't win they will be a very strong opposition party to the winners.

Then perhaps things may start to get better for us expats and for the UK as a whole.

Excellent post Bill, and I hope you are right.

[robertson468]

UK residents in Thailand

How can someone be a UK resident if he's living in Thailand?

Did you mean a UK citizen resident in Thailand?

It must be a real challenge for citizens of nanny states to live in a world where you have to pay for things yourself.

Imagine you'll be one of those expats who stiffs a Thai hospital, which means the rest of us have to pay more to cover the costs of deadbeats.

You can be classified as a UK Resident if you own a house in the UK. The House is termed as your Home and Home is the key phrase. You don't have to live in it, only prove that you own it and you are then entitled to NHS Treatment. I am in the process of buying a house in the UK, which I will rent out so I have a reasonable health care safety net in the UK. I also have sufficient income to pay up to 500,000 baht health care here in Thailand (but at a healthy 71 cannot get Insurance), which should cover any immediate needs. I also have a Niece who is about to qualify as a Doctor in Thailand so will also have very good "connections" if need be. If you live in "the Wild West" you need to take steps to take care of yourself.

[eliotness]

A change made just in April this year, but that's what you get for electing a Conservative government. I'm inclined to think that people get what they deserve when voting for that lot.

I don't have to worry, I've got enough to supply my health care needs, so screw people who haven't : it's the Tory way!

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

IMHO I think that at the next general election, The Labour party if they are still under Jeremy Corbyn will not win, the Tories who will not be under Big Dave Cameron will lose a lot of seats, the Lib/Dems under Tim Fallon (I had to look who it was on Wikipedia) shot their bolt last time probably don't stand much chance either. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond probably won't do that much out of Scotland.

To me that leaves Nigel Farage with UKIP, the Green Party under Natalie Bennett and a hodgepodge of other parties with no clear ideas or directions to fight the Tories.

For myself I truly believe that if UKIP don't win they will be a very strong opposition party to the winners.

Then perhaps things may start to get better for us expats and for the UK as a whole.

[/quot

I like your thinking. I voted UKIP too. But the powers behind the "throne" in the UK will not allow it to happen, they'll either fiddle the system or buy UKIP off. The very sad reality of supposed democracy in the real world.

[chiang mai]

If you have never informed anyone that you have left ,have a UK address and go to the doctor when you are over ,they will not know you live abroad ,a friend of mine needed an operation ,he flew over ,got a private consultation ,about 150 quid ,and was given a date about 6 months in the future ,he came back here and a week before it was due flew to the UK he is now back here after having his operation ,no one asked him anything and it cost him nothing ,now this is not second hand as I saw him off at the airport and picked him up some weeks later

Let's be clear about this, again:

The changes we're discussing here apply ONLY to those people who are not UK resident and have declared themselves as not UK resident.

Those UK citizens who are living here in Thailand but have created false residency in the UK by using a relatives address or similar, probably don't have too much to worry about, unless you get caught out somewhere.

[NoshowJones]

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

So what electoral system do you want to see, and which part of 'British' society do you think it would most benefit..... think very carefully before you answer... and very cautious in what you wish for.

Nothing could be worse than the way the UK is now, a change to UKIP could only be an improvement.

Am I starting to go off topic? not sure.

[mizztraveller]

Lucky for me I've never been outside the EU.

Wonder how they found out she had been living in the USA?

NB : it is all based on examining PASSPORTS. You now have to present them for hospital procedures in the UK - i have done this recently. So it's simple - ah madam you landed in the US in 2010 (for example) and your passport shows no returns to the UK until now (2015), and only short trips to (say) Mexico and Canada in the intervening 5 years. Conclusion : you live in the US !

What? I've never been asked to show my passport for any NHS service. Some UK residents have never travelled overseas and don't possess a passport.

[uptheos]

Lucky for me I've never been outside the EU.

Wonder how they found out she had been living in the USA?

They probably knew her personally as she had been a nurse there for fifty years....

Anyway, as I said, the acid test these days is whether you are registered with a UK GP? It is very easy to check.

I've been registered with my GP for more years I care to recall.

Whenever I used to pop home, I'd go in there with a backache or something.

"Haven't seen you for a few years"

"No, I exercise, eat healthy and try to avoid doctors"

"Take these Ibuprofen and see how it goes"

"OK doc, thanks a lot, hope I don't see you for another three years"

If you can take a trip home you are resident from day one and if you're a pensioner notify the DWP that you're back and your pension will be upgraded for the time you're there. Whether you tell them you're leaving is up to you.

If you've got an address, relative, friend go and sign up in a GP surgery and get a NHS number if you don't have one.

If you go to hospital, no-one is going to ask to see your passport or they'd have to ask everyone.

[NoshowJones]

I've never been asked for my passport. I know exactly what Id say if they did ask me.

The only time folk asked for passports is if they are suspected of being a health tourist.

Anyone with an NHS number and\or NHS history wouldn't be asked.

Whether we want to accept it or not various NHS Trusts are being proactive in enforcing these rules, indeed not everyone has a passport, but they can soon check your address and ascertain if you're on the Electoral Register and if you pay Council Tax, if you have an address, are on the Electoral Register and pay Council Tax then I suspect you'd be fine.

There is at least one regular and well respected TV member who has been caught out by these new rules already.

It's totally unfair and morally wrong but we can huff and puff as much as we like, but there's a good chance we could get caught out.

What about the Gypos who live in camp sites, they have no address, don't pay council tax, are not on electoral register.

If you have to go to a UK hospital from Thailand, tell them you are a Gypo and live in a caravan.