Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[Sawan Chan 7]

No, it appears the evidence of sex supports the case of murder--at least in the eyes of the court.

If DNA from B2 were found inside Ms. Witheridge, it would seem they had sex; which, of course does not prove rape. However, DNA evidence could have been eliminated from the hoe handle and the DNA found may be that of the authorities who handled the hoe afterward, rather than the DNA of the actual murderer.

It is possible B2 had casual consensual sex with Ms. Witheridge and she was later murdered with Mr. Miller by parties whose DNA resides on the hoe.

Of course, all of this only proves one thing; we do not have enough evidence to make a decision.

There was also the possibility the hoe in evidence was not the original murder weapon pictured on the beach. These pics show one having a missing corner (original) while the second, introduced as evidence was intact...

HoeA.jpg HoeB.jpg

This is the last post I make here, this verdict is filling me with intense anger as I believe a terrible injustice was done today and I am ashamed that I have called this place home for so long. That cannot continue for me.

Rather over the top.You must have been living a sheltered life or just here for a short time. Don't you ever read the Thai newspapers?

[Caspersfriend]

If this case had come before a court in the UK there would be a decision by jury; and perhaps the outcome might be different.

If the accused were found to be not guilty they would instantly become 'celebrities' and would feature on the many TV programmes: Different culture different ways.

There are [possibly] only two people who know whether those found to be guilty of the crimes were in fact guilty.

Sadly, for many and varied reasons, many die in Thailand on each and every day. At least some of us [other than those directly affected] spare a thought for these two.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Caspersfriend

[flyingdoc]

Incredible !

[Artisi]

And so the bubble pops...

The people saying that no evidence was presented are in complete denial, the main evidence against them, DNA found inside the rape victim was presented by the prosecution and not contested in any meaningful way by the defense.

Would like to see the judges' rationale on how they arrived at the verdict.

The judge is supposed to put in writing the rationale behind the decision, I hope someone takes the time and effort to translate it into English, in toto and without creative interpretations or convenient omissions as it has been the norm for the press work on issues related to this case.

Hold on a second!

Are you saying these 2 men were not being tried for murder?

That they received the death sentence for rape?

No, it appears the evidence of sex supports the case of murder--at least in the eyes of the court.

If DNA from B2 were found inside Ms. Witheridge, it would seem they had sex; which, of course does not prove rape. However, DNA evidence could have been eliminated from the hoe handle and the DNA found may be that of the authorities who handled the hoe afterward, rather than the DNA of the actual murderer.

It is possible B2 had casual consensual sex with Ms. Witheridge and she was later murdered with Mr. Miller by parties whose DNA resides on the hoe.

Of course, all of this only proves one thing; we do not have enough evidence to make a decision.

Correct, it could have consensual sex and not rape nor murder. This was floated as a possibility way back in discussions but of course doesn't suit the model being presented by the BIB etc. As far as extrapolating this into a murder charge without further evidence is quiet a stretch.

[clockman]

A great pity the unnamed judge, could not have seen. The BBC report. It sums it up nicely. Justice is distant bell. Rarely heard in Thailand.!

[Sooo Upto Me]

Well for once in the land of scams I'm speechless, I've never known such a corrupt country. Just lies an so called village mafia an of course the main 2 things money an loss of face.

If it wasn't for my 2 cats here (sod the wife) I would be on the first plane bac home to loopy London.

An absolute disgrace

Rant Over, but not a happy chappy.

HAPPY XMAS

[laobali]

The complete lack of law and order/justice is the main reason that I no longer live in Thailand.

I cannot understand why the rest of you are still there.

Some of us are stuck here economically. Sadly.

And others for the love of a partner and/or children. Obliviously.

[Transporter]

I've read some appalling stuff on this forum but the comments attacking the British victims' family and alleging that they would agree to anything that they did not really believe to be the truth about the murders of their dear ones and are actually involved in a conspiracy with the Thai Government, the Thai Poilice, the UK Government, the UK Police, the Mafia and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, stoops to the depths lower than the muck on the bottom of my shoe. Those who are citing and supporting Jonathan Head and the BBC, wait to see what happens if they dare make the same allegations against the family directly in the UK that some of the depraved idiots have made here so far.

Yeah, we all should fall in line.

Even many have the feeling, that justice wasn't done, even many think, that 2 innocent people (2 MORE innocent people) are suffering...

Let's just all bow our heads, because some one says so!

So everyone else is expected to believe the twisted utterings of people like you who would have sensible people believe that a decent, grieving family has bowed their heads, because you say so! Where is YOUR evidence for that!!! People can have their views on the case, the trial and the result but to make unfounded and disgraceful insinuations against the family makes them no better than the ones they say "we should all fall in line with".

It is interesting how few people believe that justice has been done. Drivers are being fined 200 Baht accused of jumping red lights when they were green, speeding when they were not and not wearing a seat belt even when they were and whilst driving a car which has a loud and annoying beep if you dont wear it, yet we are all meant to believe the RTP in this case did everything correctly? What a sham!

[soalbundy]

To stealthenergiser.

Good on Andy Hall. What were the results of this crucial statement by the defence? The judge was satisfied with the way the forensics was conducted which rather stopped them in their tracks. I'm sick and tired of these petty technical admissions getting in the way of real hard evidence.

Nothing is petty issue when the death penalty is involved suggest you go and do some more reading JtJ

I've done all the reading I need to do and have come to my verdict. I say they are guilty on the evidence I've seen and fully concur with that, as passed down by the residing judge(s) in the case.

Bet you park in invalid spaces...?

That was uncalled for,he has a right to express his opinion

[phuketandsee]

Hate to be a broken record here but the only "evidence" offered by the prosecution was DNA which, if (and a very big if) is genuine, only goes to rape. Hardly "overwhelming" so how did the Miller's come up with this conclusion?

[springheeled jack]

I have said all along these two boys are not guilty and they were convenient scapegoats the thai court said the evidence proves they were the killers no evidence was produced to prove their point the dna evidence proved otherwise .the thai court said they were guilty and sentenced them to death thai justice prevails so they don't lose face .

[wvavin]

Too bad. They are Burmese.

[oneday]

"We believe what happened today represents justice for Hannah and David,"

It’s very disturbing that one or more family members are satisfied justice was done. That statement could not possibly have been made by a rational human being who watched the prosecutions case fall apart day by day. It can only mean they want to see someone convicted and don’t really care if a fair trial was conducted to determine if they really did murder the young couple. This case would have been thrown out in the first day or two in any western country due to incredibly sloppy police and forensic work.

“…adding that the two men had shown no remorse for what they had done…”

I also would not show remorse if I was innocent.

[dunroaming]

It is on the major news channels in the UK now including comments by Jonathon Head. They are being careful how they report it but the underlying tone is that justice has not been served. A radio phone in station is also covering it and that also calls the verdict into doubt. Lots of people calling in saying it is a stitch up.

The appeal will go ahead and the Burmese men will stay in prison for years until everyone forgets about the case unless of course they decide to "commit suicide" which is a definite possibility.

My heart goes out to the families.

[Nigeone]

Statement on behalf of the family of Hannah Witheridge

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1450938246

Very dignified and it's all so sad for them...

[Artisi]

Luck11 said,

" "If DNA from B2 were found inside Ms. Witheridge, it would seem they had sex; which, of course does not prove rape"

I think, if I was you, that I would edit this while you have the chance, otherwise it will surely draw ridicule!!

Why don't you read what you wrote again and try to see the errors in your words."

Lucky, you seem a bit confused. Are you saying a man's DNA evidence inside a woman means rape? If that were the case my poor ill-informed friend, almost all sex would be rape.

Nothing new with statement about confused

[Guitar God]

17 pages of "Thailand sucks" but little discussion about the fact that the family of the male victim said they were convinced that the correct verdict was returned. They were at the trial, they were at the hearing and I'm sure they had a translator.

I'm curious why the people who lost a son and who were privy to more evidence and discussion about the case that everyone here put together are convinced that Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun were to two people responsible for their sons' death. If it were my son who was murdered I wouldn't be satisfied until the person responsible was caught and brought to justice. I wouldn't settle for just killing two random innocent people and calling it even. I doubt the Miller's would either.

If the two Burmese guys didn't do it, they're the unluckiest people on the planet.

There is CCTV footage of them an a third Burmese laborer on a scooter going to 7-11 to buy cigarettes and beer.

Their friend Muang Muang , on the scooter places them at the beach shortly before the murders.

Cigarette butts with their DNA was found at the scene of the crime.

Both of their DNA was found in the female victims vagina.

The female victim's telephone was found at Zaw Lin's lodging with his fingerprints on it.

They confessed. What's the point of confessing to a crime where the penalty is death?

The unspoken accusation is that some son of a rich Thai did it and his father either bought everyone off or threatened people to rig the trial.

Where's the evidence that anyone else did it? Did the public see anyone else, did cameras, did the police find any evidence linking anyone else to the crime?

Was it a perfect investigation? No. Was the crime scene secured properly? No. What the trial 100% objective and free of outside interference? Who know. Could everything have been handled better, probably. Is this a purely Thai phenomenon, absolutely not. People still discuss and second guess the Oscar Pistorius trial, the OJ trial, Michael Jackson, Phil Spector, Amanda Knox, George Zimmerman and even the Scopes "monkey" trial.

If anybody has a more convincing version of what happened, with real verifiable facts, not just pulled out of their a$$, I'd enjoy reading it.

[Arandora]

I've read some appalling stuff on this forum but the comments attacking the British victims' family and alleging that they would agree to anything that they did not really believe to be the truth about the murders of their dear ones and are actually involved in a conspiracy with the Thai Government, the Thai Poilice, the UK Government, the UK Police, the Mafia and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, stoops to the depths lower than the muck on the bottom of my shoe. Those who are citing and supporting Jonathan Head and the BBC, wait to see what happens if they dare make the same allegations against the family directly in the UK that some of the depraved idiots have made here so far.

You are being quite judgemental in your presumptions that people here are being subjective in their comments rather than obective.

Many people who come here as a result of trials etc.. are at the mercy of interpreters and numerous other aspects of an unfamiliar culture and language. There is no doubt that they believe sincerely what is being said to them and the explanations that they are receiving. I believe it is the opinion of some members that these explanations are dubious and as such they are entitled to express those opinions. To deride someone whose opinion is not the same as others is to be petulant.

Also, if you are having a problem with the muck on the bottom of your shoe then you could always try standing elsewhere.

I've not commented on the views of anyone on the outcome of the trial. They have a right to express them, right, wrong or indifferent. My comments were at those who made IMO totally unfounded and insinuations and allegations about one of the victim's families. On what basis do you defend those allegations as being objective? On what evidence? The main argument by those who disagree with the verdict is lack of evidence. They then commit the same "crime" by disregarding any in their comments against the family. My comments were subjective and in support of the family. I would say the same if the defendants' families came out and said something and allegations were made against them. You seem to have a most peculiar view of petulance.

[wvavin]

A great miscarriage of justice!

[Sawan Chan 7]

Now will they get death or life in a Thai jail?

I'd choose death over life in any jail, especially a Thai one

[Artisi]

Expert witness Dr Porntip's statement, that the police's DNA evidence was flawed and therefore unreliable, was not taken into account. According to Jonathon head on BBC.

That may well be advantageous if this case is ever appealed - it could be a very important point in the hands of a competent defence lawyer.

[Laza 45]

From the family of Jack.. victim of brutal assault on Kho Samui... RESPONSE to TODAY'S GUILTY VERDICT from KOH SAMUI:

As a family we are deeply saddened and distressed by the verdict delivered today against the two Burmese lads Win and Saw in the murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller. As a family caught up in the judicial system of Koh Samui we understand how overwhelming the process can be and how easily one can be led by the police to believe that certain things are happening or that leads are being investigated. They are extraordinarily easy to believe in fact as they are in 'sheeps clothing' and all too kind and all too gracious.
The information passed on in Jack's case, as well as in this case we believe, has been altered along the way at different points to fit the Public Prosecutors end game. In was made public that the Public Prosecutor was advising the police on their written report of David and Hannah's case, very early on. This assistance helps to play into the 'end game' as it is envisioned by the Public Prosecutor to help the most affluent persons.
We sit here as a family today in Bangkok watching David Miller's family bravely face the media from the court house, with very heavy hearts.The family believe that today's verdict is right and they believe what they have been told, clearly advocating for the police and admonishing the thousands of us worldwide who have tried in some small way to ensure that this case was on a path to justice..
Let's be clear. Today justice was NOT serviced. The Miller family has been poorly served and poorly informed. They will come to know this.
Win and Saw have been sentenced to death for murders that they unequivocally did not commit. And yes, by way of Jack's case being held in the same area at around the same time, we were privy to a lot of information on this case due to the investigations occurring concurrently.
So we speak from a place of knowledge. Today we are broken-hearted like the hundreds and thousands of people around the world.

[Sawan Chan 7]

So much for all the do-gooders and their team of top lawyers. Little do they know the power of the Thai mafia.

[anto]

>>still no closure for the Families <<

Why do people still keep repeating this ?Its reported that the families are happy with this decision .Not the sharpest tools in the shed ,but if they are happy etc ,etc .

[Crash999]

https://twitter.com/olireports/status/679882939455295488'>

I feel sorry for their loss.

But this does not excuse their celebrating this verdict.

If they know something that gives reason for their opinion they should let everybody know

- so people can peacefully agree with the verdict

If not they have been brainwashed - or may be even bribed??

What a disgusting accusation.

The UK police investigation shared their findings with the family of the victims. It is for them to know and there is no obligation for them to divulge private information to whacko online conspiracy theorists.

[catsanddogs]

17 pages of "Thailand sucks" but little discussion about the fact that the family of the male victim said they were convinced that the correct verdict was returned. They were at the trial, they were at the hearing and I'm sure they had a translator.

I'm curious why the people who lost a son and who were privy to more evidence and discussion about the case that everyone here put together are convinced that Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun were to two people responsible for their sons' death. If it were my son who was murdered I wouldn't be satisfied until the person responsible was caught and brought to justice. I wouldn't settle for just killing two random innocent people and calling it even. I doubt the Miller's would either.

If the two Burmese guys didn't do it, they're the unluckiest people on the planet.

There is CCTV footage of them an a third Burmese laborer on a scooter going to 7-11 to buy cigarettes and beer.

Their friend Muang Muang , on the scooter places them at the beach shortly before the murders.

Cigarette butts with their DNA was found at the scene of the crime.

Both of their DNA was found in the female victims vagina.

The female victim's telephone was found at Zaw Lin's lodging with his fingerprints on it.

They confessed. What's the point of confessing to a crime where the penalty is death?

The unspoken accusation is that some son of a rich Thai did it and his father either bought everyone off or threatened people to rig the trial.

Where's the evidence that anyone else did it? Did the public see anyone else, did cameras, did the police find any evidence linking anyone else to the crime?

Was it a perfect investigation? No. Was the crime scene secured properly? No. What the trial 100% objective and free of outside interference? Who know. Could everything have been handled better, probably. Is this a purely Thai phenomenon, absolutely not. People still discuss and second guess the Oscar Pistorius trial, the OJ trial, Michael Jackson, Phil Spector, Amanda Knox, George Zimmerman and even the Scopes "monkey" trial.

If anybody has a more convincing version of what happened, with real verifiable facts, not just pulled out of their <deleted>, I'd enjoy reading it.

You need to get you facts right. Your post contains serious inaccuracies. Most on here will be aware of those inaccuracies, but for those who are not, you should do some research and repost with the correct information.

[OnTheRun]

I don't why people are knocking the system, two innocent British tourists were killed and I'm sure Cameron pressed Prayut to get this sorted. No other suspects were brought forward and they had a 7 strong of lawyers to defend them!

I suspect the reason people are knocking it is because. 1. The BiB made a complete arse of the case, 2. The early main suspect was removed from the investigation and the policeman who suspected him was transferred. 3 The early main suspect refused a DNA test and when he did comply he was cleared in 9 hours (that time includes the transfer of the sample from Samuii to Bangkok). 4. The evidence was flimsy, poorly handled, poorly put forward and in some cases downright unbelievable (run out of sample for further DNA testing, erm no wait a minute we've lost it) and the main one as far as I'm concerned 5. Rich, powerful or influential Thai people do not get prosecuted. In this case there was so much international focus on the case they had to secure a conviction.

The above is only the tip of the iceberg, so much has went on in this case it's hard to keep up. I feel for the families of the victims.

[connda]

I thought it was against forum rules to adversely comment on a Thai courts decision.

So I won't.

Agreed.

[Artisi]

Appeal time, this isnt done, world media is going to be all over this.

One more nail in the Juntas coffin.

Why would this be a nail in the Juntas coffin they have done their duty to the people who brought them in. The ruling criminal elite.

Was it not prayut who said "There is enough evidence to convict" , not to prosecute but to convict. In anywhere but this 3rd world backwater, that statement would have been enough to drop all charges as somebody in Prayuts position would have been seen as influencing the outcome. And he would have been removed from office.

Ah well

What would possess a Pm to come out with such a statement, I think before all evidence was collected. This man does not have to bow to any criminal elite so why, whats he hiding, why did he remove the original officer in charge for a lapdog officer. Whats big enough to make the PM jump. Maybe its in the DNA or the DNA that was never sampled

The latter.

[condobrit001]

They were probably found 99.3% guilty, which in Thai-speak would be innocent!