Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[geTITstraight]

Bear with me. So sick of it. They ARE pulling it off again. And THEM eying some other girl on Koh Tao tonight, now, as we are speaking, on Christmas Eve.. You remember the policeman with the blond wig. Him. Mon. Nomsod. Roaming. Enjoying. Thainess. Oh man. Got to go.

[BangkokHank]

It's bad enough to knowingly let the REAL murderer walk away unpunished just because he is well-connected. But to be willing to see two innocent young people executed for a crime that you know they didn't commit? That's pure evil.

[annabel]

Appeal time, this isnt done, world media is going to be all over this.

One more nail in the Juntas coffin.

Not so sure about that /.... the world right now doesn't really care about what happens in Thailand as they are more concerned with the fears imposed by ISIL

Very true, this will be old news tomorrow. Verdict was guilty, tomorrow is Christmas Day and after that it will be about Sangin or Syria. I doubt the British press will even report on any appeal.

I wouldn't be surprised if the timing of the announcement of the verdict was in the hope that Xmas would dilute any outrage. I can see the Drama Mail headline now. "Buddhists use Christian holiday to cover up injustice."

You are right it is going to be an uphill struggle to keep this in the international eye.

I so agree with you... they specifically picked Dec 24th for that reason .. How did not deduct that when a month ago they said the verdict would be announced on Dec 24th ?? Guess we are also living in our own little bubbles ... what a sad tragedy for these 2 poor boys...

One more point I want to ask... does Thailand not have a choice for the defendants to chose a Jury versus Judges to put out a verdict ?? Are defendants not allowed to chose ??

[tribalfusion001]

Appeal time, this isnt done, world media is going to be all over this.

One more nail in the Juntas coffin.

Not so sure about that /.... the world right now doesn't really care about what happens in Thailand as they are more concerned with the fears imposed by ISIL

Very true, this will be old news tomorrow. Verdict was guilty, tomorrow is Christmas Day and after that it will be about Sangin or Syria. I doubt the British press will even report on any appeal.

I wouldn't be surprised if the timing of the announcement of the verdict was in the hope that Xmas would dilute any outrage. I can see the Drama Mail headline now. "Buddhists use Christian holiday to cover up injustice."

You are right it is going to be an uphill struggle to keep this in the international eye.

Mail Online has relegated the story already, all about a Costa car crash, Telegraph half way down and same on BBC News.

There is no outrage on this story, the victims relatives are happy with the verdict and so are UK and Thai governments.

[tribalfusion001]

Good job RTP. Just because their DNA was not on the "hoe" does not mean they did not use it. Mistakes are made by the police in every single investigation. Some minor and some big but mistakes do not in themselves make the subjects "not guilty". The judges heard all the evidence, the objections, the Defense objections and after all that they decided "Guilty". I agree with the conviction and believe based on what I have heard it is a just decision. The weight of the world was on these judges and they ruled appropriately. Good for them, good for the investigators and sorry for the two defendants. I hope now they get the ultimate sentence. "Death". In my opinion.

Do you think that if the exact same trial and the exact same proceedings happened in the US or the UK then the verdict would have been guilty?

Probably.

[catsanddogs]

Appeal time, this isnt done, world media is going to be all over this.

One more nail in the Juntas coffin.

Not so sure about that /.... the world right now doesn't really care about what happens in Thailand as they are more concerned with the fears imposed by ISIL

Very true, this will be old news tomorrow. Verdict was guilty, tomorrow is Christmas Day and after that it will be about Sangin or Syria. I doubt the British press will even report on any appeal.

Your last sentence - I think you are wrong. The verdict being announced on Christmas Eve in the UK has actually bought the case to a huge audience - people who had never even heard about the murders previously. I believe the British press have been silenced to a degree for the past 15 months and that that now that will change. I am confident that any appeal will be widely reported in the UK and coverage will serve would-be-travellers to Koh Tao with the warning signal necessary that the island is not the place to find yourself needing a swift police response, legal assistance or a straightforward honest and transparent process.

[KunMatt]

Good job RTP. Just because their DNA was not on the "hoe" does not mean they did not use it. Mistakes are made by the police in every single investigation. Some minor and some big but mistakes do not in themselves make the subjects "not guilty". The judges heard all the evidence, the objections, the Defense objections and after all that they decided "Guilty". I agree with the conviction and believe based on what I have heard it is a just decision. The weight of the world was on these judges and they ruled appropriately. Good for them, good for the investigators and sorry for the two defendants. I hope now they get the ultimate sentence. "Death". In my opinion.

Do you think that if the exact same trial and the exact same proceedings happened in the US or the UK then the verdict would have been guilty?

Probably.

Sorry if you are confused as you must be thinking of a different trial. I am referring to the trial where the police claimed they had processed DNA in their little outpost in 12 hours by a trainee linking the B2 to a rape and murder and then couldn't produce it in court or even prove that Hannah was raped, or prove that the heavy alleged murder weapon was used to caused multiple small lacerations.

The same case where 2 suspects were caught on CCTV and said to be "definitely implicated" by the investigating police chief and then it was all forgotten about as soon as the police chief was quickly changed.

The same trial where the police answered "I don't know" to every question of the defense and failed to attend any human rights meetings to discuss the torture of the defendants.

The same trial where the police said they didn't have the budget to print out photos of the crime scene but they didn't waste any time in posting the gory photos on social media.

And so many many more things.

If you really believe that guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a Western trial then you are deluded. In any just country the B2 would have been freed long ago and sued the hell out of everyone involved and the real killers would have been tried instead.

[DiscoDan]

The defense told you the police forensic department was not at intl standard or ISO 17025 like Pornthips which is true

But what they dont tell you is neither are the UK police only people providing services for the police.

http://www.publicati...h/855/85506.htm

102. As already noted, all FSPs providing services for the police must be accredited to ISO 17025—this is a requirement under the current procurement strategy. However, police in-house forensic services are currently not subject to the same requirement.

Do the UK police use their own in-house forensic services for extracting DNA from murdered and possibly raped victims or do they use it for DNA collection of normal arrests, there's a huge difference. Do UK Crown courts allow the presentation of DNA from murdered victims to be taken as evidence knowing its not passed the standard ISO 17025? (I doubt it) but without knowing that your link is irrelevant.

This is going to appeal, quite rightly so, the due process of law is not over yet.

Uk police in house forensics don't need to be ISO 17025 try to twist it as much as you like its still a fact,

Its the same as the gait evidence by the company Acume forensics,it has no mention of gait technology on its website the guy also didn't take the stand Andy Hall bought a few grainy stills with a couple of blue arrows on it and said its not WP, after the the propaganda machine started to post pics on facebook saying its 100% not WP this was a lie.

[tribalfusion001]

Good job RTP. Just because their DNA was not on the "hoe" does not mean they did not use it. Mistakes are made by the police in every single investigation. Some minor and some big but mistakes do not in themselves make the subjects "not guilty". The judges heard all the evidence, the objections, the Defense objections and after all that they decided "Guilty". I agree with the conviction and believe based on what I have heard it is a just decision. The weight of the world was on these judges and they ruled appropriately. Good for them, good for the investigators and sorry for the two defendants. I hope now they get the ultimate sentence. "Death". In my opinion.

Do you think that if the exact same trial and the exact same proceedings happened in the US or the UK then the verdict would have been guilty?

Probably.

Sorry if you are confused as you must be thinking of a different trial. I am referring to the trial where the police claimed they had processed DNA in their little outpost in 12 hours by a trainee linking the B2 to a rape and murder and then couldn't produce it in court or even prove that Hannah was raped, or prove that the heavy alleged murder weapon was used to caused multiple small lacerations.

The same case where 2 suspects were caught on CCTV and said to be "definitely implicated" by the investigating police chief and then it was all forgotten about as soon as the police chief was quickly changed.

The same trial where the police answered "I don't know" to every question of the defense and failed to attend any human rights meetings to discuss the torture of the defendants.

The same trial where the police said they didn't have the budget to print out photos of the crime scene but they didn't waste any time in posting the gory photos on social media.

And so many many more things.

If you really believe that guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a Western trial then you are deluded. In any just country the B2 would have been freed long ago and sued the hell out of everyone involved and the real killers would have been tried instead.

The fact that they are migrants would affect any trial in the UK. Public opinion in the UK is anti migrant and the result would be the same especially if it was murder against a tourist.

[tribalfusion001]

Appeal time, this isnt done, world media is going to be all over this.

One more nail in the Juntas coffin.

Not so sure about that /.... the world right now doesn't really care about what happens in Thailand as they are more concerned with the fears imposed by ISIL

Very true, this will be old news tomorrow. Verdict was guilty, tomorrow is Christmas Day and after that it will be about Sangin or Syria. I doubt the British press will even report on any appeal.

Your last sentence - I think you are wrong. The verdict being announced on Christmas Eve in the UK has actually bought the case to a huge audience - people who had never even heard about the murders previously. I believe the British press have been silenced to a degree for the past 15 months and that that now that will change. I am confident that any appeal will be widely reported in the UK and coverage will serve would-be-travellers to Koh Tao with the warning signal necessary that the island is not the place to find yourself needing a swift police response, legal assistance or a straightforward honest and transparent process.

I've been on all of the online UK newspapers today, no outrage, some balanced reports, but it's old news already. Why would any of the UK media run the appeal, the verdict will be the same?

[KunMatt]

Good job RTP. Just because their DNA was not on the "hoe" does not mean they did not use it. Mistakes are made by the police in every single investigation. Some minor and some big but mistakes do not in themselves make the subjects "not guilty". The judges heard all the evidence, the objections, the Defense objections and after all that they decided "Guilty". I agree with the conviction and believe based on what I have heard it is a just decision. The weight of the world was on these judges and they ruled appropriately. Good for them, good for the investigators and sorry for the two defendants. I hope now they get the ultimate sentence. "Death". In my opinion.

Do you think that if the exact same trial and the exact same proceedings happened in the US or the UK then the verdict would have been guilty?

Probably.

Sorry if you are confused as you must be thinking of a different trial. I am referring to the trial where the police claimed they had processed DNA in their little outpost in 12 hours by a trainee linking the B2 to a rape and murder and then couldn't produce it in court or even prove that Hannah was raped, or prove that the heavy alleged murder weapon was used to caused multiple small lacerations.

The same case where 2 suspects were caught on CCTV and said to be "definitely implicated" by the investigating police chief and then it was all forgotten about as soon as the police chief was quickly changed.

The same trial where the police answered "I don't know" to every question of the defense and failed to attend any human rights meetings to discuss the torture of the defendants.

The same trial where the police said they didn't have the budget to print out photos of the crime scene but they didn't waste any time in posting the gory photos on social media.

And so many many more things.

If you really believe that guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a Western trial then you are deluded. In any just country the B2 would have been freed long ago and sued the hell out of everyone involved and the real killers would have been tried instead.

The fact that they are migrants would affect any trial in the UK. Public opinion in the UK is anti migrant and the result would be the same especially if it was murder against a tourist.

Nonsense.

[T_Dog]

Torture reports need investigating.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/press-releases/thailand-torture-claims-in-koh-tao-murder-case-must-be-investigated#.VnwlzidnO8I.twitter

Edited December 24, 2015 by T_Dog

[Nigeone]

Bear with me. So sick of it. They ARE pulling it off again. And THEM eying some other girl on Koh Tao tonight, now, as we are speaking, on Christmas Eve.. You remember the policeman with the blond wig. Him. Mon. Nomsod. Roaming. Enjoying. Thainess. Oh man. Got to go.

Does anyone else read into this message what I'm seeing ??

[greenchair]

Very hard explain how David's phone came to be in their possession. Hard to explain why they tried to conceal a phone that they knew was from the crime scene.

[Luang]

Bear with me. So sick of it. They ARE pulling it off again. And THEM eying some other girl on Koh Tao tonight, now, as we are speaking, on Christmas Eve.. You remember the policeman with the blond wig. Him. Mon. Nomsod. Roaming. Enjoying. Thainess. Oh man. Got to go.

Does anyone else read into this message what I'm seeing ??

Drunken local expat ? Maybe knows something maybe just drunk?

[DiscoDan]

The family of Mr Miller said after hearing the evidence that the Thai police investigation was "not the so-called shambles it was made out to be".

"We hope the campaigners who have relentlessly promoted this case will respect the process of law and the decision of the court."

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/483362/Backpackers-murdered-death-penalty-Hannah-Witheridge-David-Miller

[off road pat]

September 25, 2014

“Pol Gen Somyot pointed to groundless reports posted on social media that obstructed the investigation and confused the investigators.”

“We haven't targeted anyone and have not concluded whether the murderers are still in the area,'' he said.”

“The mystery surrounding the identities of the killers had grown over reports, which he denied, that a suspect had fled the island and was hiding in Bangkok."

"I was surprised at the news.”

http://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-police-blame-koh-tao-probe-delays-on-social-media-48872.php

Yet, two days prior:

September 23, 2014

“Police in Thailand said today they had identified two men they wanted to speak to as part of the inquiry into the murder of two British tourists.”

“One of the suspects had been questioned while the other had left the island where the killings took place.”

“Lt Gen Panya Mamen, a senior southern police commander, said the suspects were related to the village leader on the island of Koh Tao.”

“The police chief said they were liaising with officers in the capital to try and detain the second man.”

“Police said they looking into claims Ms Witheridge and Mr Miller had argued with a Thai man in a bar before they were killed.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thailand-beach-murders-police-identify-two-suspects-over-deaths-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-9751056.html

September 23, 2014

“The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.”

“Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.”

“He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.”

“He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.”

“He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.”

“He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.”

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

September 30, 2014

“A Thai man said he was beaten up by police after he turned down a police offer of reward money if he agreed to be a witness in the murder case of two British tourists in Thailand’s tourist island of Koh Tao, southern Surat Thani Province”

“Pornprasit said the police detained him at 1.30 pm on Monday.”

“During the interrogation, the police investigators asked him to agree to pretend to have knowledge of the incident, Pornprasit said.”

“The police allegedly offered him a 700,000 baht reward and guaranteed him witness status.”

“However, since he was not involved with the crime and did not have any knowledge related to it, Pornprasit declined the police offer.”

“That made the police angry, he said.”

“The police allegedly beat him up before releasing him on Monday at 6.30 pm.”

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4373

October 2, 2014

“Prasit brought the issue up with Assawin sae-Phoo, head of local taxi drivers on the tourist island, citing "fear for his life after turning down the offer".

"Assawin later took Prasit's complaint to Korbchai Saowalak, the kamnan of tambon Koh Tao.”

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-promised-cash-reward-to-buy-false-testimony-30244573.html

October 30, 2014

“Royal Thai Police commissioner Pol Gen Somyot Phumphanmuang today warned of tough legal action for anyone who posted false information on the social network criticizing the handling of the Koh Tao murder case by the police which he said could cause rift and a threat to economy.”

“Pol Gen Somyot, however, made clear that the DNA test on the son would have no impact on the police case file which has been finished with all circumstantial and forensic evidence submitted to the prosecutor for indictment of the two Myanmar suspects.”

“He said he has designated the computer crime suppression police to investigate and bring the poster to trial as the post has hurt tourism and economy.”

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/national-police-chief-warns-distorted-information-koh-tao-murder

November 04, 2014

Police refuse to answer torture claim

“Police handling the Koh Tao murders case have again stood up the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), which has repeatedly invited investigators to its headquarters to clear up allegations they tortured two Myanmar suspects to confess.”

“The NHRC would begin debating whether it should file a complaint against forensic police, Police Region 8 and the Metropolitan Police Bureau after the three departments failed to show up for the fourth time.”

http://www.nhrc.or.th/2012/wb/en/news_detail.php?nid=3376&parent_id=1&type=new

And of course, there is this;

September 19, 2014

"On arriving the day after the murders, the senior police officer on the island assured us the culprit could not have been a Thai person."

"No Thai could possibly commit such a crime, he said, forgetting the equally ghastly murder of Welsh tourist Katherine Horton in 2006, by, it turned out, two Thai fishermen."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29262496

Until Senior Southern Police Commander, Lt Gen Panya Mamen showed up on September 23, 2014.

And that all changed.

"He also dismissed any suggestion of local mafias or influential people that could twist the investigation with promise that local influence would pose no obstacle to the police investigation."

"Instead the police will eliminate all these mafias, he said."

Then they changed him. Transferred out.

Great job looking for all this information or did you keep it ?

I red all this from the beginning of the Koh Tao murder Case, but unfortunately didn't keep all this information.

Thanks for reminding me and some of us.

Best Regards, Off Road Pat

[off road pat]

Good job RTP. Just because their DNA was not on the "hoe" does not mean they did not use it. Mistakes are made by the police in every single investigation. Some minor and some big but mistakes do not in themselves make the subjects "not guilty". The judges heard all the evidence, the objections, the Defense objections and after all that they decided "Guilty". I agree with the conviction and believe based on what I have heard it is a just decision. The weight of the world was on these judges and they ruled appropriately. Good for them, good for the investigators and sorry for the two defendants. I hope now they get the ultimate sentence. "Death". In my opinion.

Do you think that if the exact same trial and the exact same proceedings happened in the US or the UK then the verdict would have been guilty?

Probably.

Sorry if you are confused as you must be thinking of a different trial. I am referring to the trial where the police claimed they had processed DNA in their little outpost in 12 hours by a trainee linking the B2 to a rape and murder and then couldn't produce it in court or even prove that Hannah was raped, or prove that the heavy alleged murder weapon was used to caused multiple small lacerations.

The same case where 2 suspects were caught on CCTV and said to be "definitely implicated" by the investigating police chief and then it was all forgotten about as soon as the police chief was quickly changed.

The same trial where the police answered "I don't know" to every question of the defense and failed to attend any human rights meetings to discuss the torture of the defendants.

The same trial where the police said they didn't have the budget to print out photos of the crime scene but they didn't waste any time in posting the gory photos on social media.

And so many many more things.

If you really believe that guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a Western trial then you are deluded. In any just country the B2 would have been freed long ago and sued the hell out of everyone involved and the real killers would have been tried instead.

The fact that they are migrants would affect any trial in the UK. Public opinion in the UK is anti migrant and the result would be the same especially if it was murder against a tourist.

Nonsense.

Oh yesss, this is so well said,....You should have been a lawyer....!! Really , RESPECT !!

Best regards. Off Road Pat

[tribalfusion001]

Bear with me. So sick of it. They ARE pulling it off again. And THEM eying some other girl on Koh Tao tonight, now, as we are speaking, on Christmas Eve.. You remember the policeman with the blond wig. Him. Mon. Nomsod. Roaming. Enjoying. Thainess. Oh man. Got to go.

Does anyone else read into this message what I'm seeing ??

Lots of capitals? Give me a clue...

Edited December 24, 2015 by tribalfusion001

[monk213]

I have only one question, where is the Scottish Sean? Shaun? However you want to spell his name, his is the key here and he has been lost, just as you lose the key to your house you cannot get in, here nobody can get closure or justice, it's <deleted> up

[pieeyed]

All I see is some people not telling the truth. The poor pay. The mafia carry on?

[Luang]

The fact that they are migrants would affect any trial in the UK. Public opinion in the UK is anti migrant and the result would be the same especially if it was murder against a tourist.

. I'm British and can say unequivocally you are talking horse poo. Thankfully your anti-migrant mentality is not embraced by the majority as you would have us believe.

[iReason]

@off road pat

Kept it.

These are just the highlights...

Basically trying to educate the Trolls. How's that for an oxymoron?

One particular goof here, appears to just like to hear himself talk.

Stunningly clueless he is.

Regards

[tribalfusion001]

The fact that they are migrants would affect any trial in the UK. Public opinion in the UK is anti migrant and the result would be the same especially if it was murder against a tourist.

. I'm British and can say unequivocally you are talking horse poo. Thankfully your anti-migrant mentality is not embraced by the majority as you would have us believe.

99.3% agree with anti-migrant, the rest are a bunch of Corbyn supporting dandies!

[off road pat]

New Years headline "Convicted B2 found hanged in cells, police suspect suicide"...

No need for appeals then !!

Maybe,...one of the multiple possibility's....?!?!?!?

[Mudcrab]

They will be put to death soon and anyone who expected a not guilty verdict was a fool. Too much loss of face to get that kind of verdict here.

no they won't

not soon

and probably never.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Mudcrab

[Nerone]

I still feel the strong statement from David Millers brother means he must have heard something in this case that convinced him that the evidence is good enough. As an observer and not knowing all the facts it's very difficult to understand for most people . We are not closer to the truth ,if they are scapegoats or not.

Personally I believe they were present on the beach that night, close to the murder scene, but that someone else did the actual killings.

But I'm pretty sure they will appeal and the sentence will not be death, unless new evidence is provided that will clear their names, this will probably end up as a life sentence. That could take a couple of years.

I believe this crime was committed by more than two people, and that the B2 may have indeed been on the scene at the behest of their employers at the time.

Their employers who btw people that believe that this verdict is correct, have been pictured mocking these events. They have been posted here before.

You might be right, they could be guilty, but someone at the scene is missing...

[Chuckles78]

But in a statement outside court, Miller’s family said they believed the police investigation and forensic work “was not the so-called shambles it was made out to be”.

“David was hacked from behind, dragged into the sea and left to die,” said Miller’s brother, Michael, standing by his parents, Ian and Sue. “That will live with us forever. What happened to Hannah Witheridge is unspeakable. David always stood up for justice and justice is what has been delivered today. We came to realise that the police investigation and the forensic work performed was not the so-called shambles it was made out to be.”

He added: “Having listened carefully to all the evidence and despite what their lawyers say, it is our opinion that the evidence against Wai Phyo and Zaw Lin is absolutely overwhelming.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/24/thailand-backpacker-murders-bar-workers-found-guilty-of-killing-british-tourists

Looks like the police did their job, then again forum readers who were never there probably know better

[Luang]

But in a statement outside court, Miller’s family said they believed the police investigation and forensic work “was not the so-called shambles it was made out to be”.

“David was hacked from behind, dragged into the sea and left to die,” said Miller’s brother, Michael, standing by his parents, Ian and Sue. “That will live with us forever. What happened to Hannah Witheridge is unspeakable. David always stood up for justice and justice is what has been delivered today. We came to realise that the police investigation and the forensic work performed was not the so-called shambles it was made out to be.”

He added: “Having listened carefully to all the evidence and despite what their lawyers say, it is our opinion that the evidence against Wai Phyo and Zaw Lin is absolutely overwhelming.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/24/thailand-backpacker-murders-bar-workers-found-guilty-of-killing-british-tourists

Looks like the police did their job, then again forum readers who were never there probably know better

“David was hacked from behind, dragged into the sea and left to die,” said Miller’s brother, Michael, standing by his parents, Ian and Sue. “That will live with us forever. What happened to Hannah Witheridge is unspeakable. David always stood up for justice and justice is what has been delivered today. We came to realise that the police investigation and the forensic work performed was not the so-called shambles it was made out to be.”

So, I guess the other BIG guy was restraining Hannah, whilst his equally BIG friend was wiping the floor with 6ft+ David? No worries (or noise) and then then both nonchalantly raped Hannah as the sun rose on paradise, 50-100m from their residences? Some story, don't you think?!!

[berybert]

The fact that they are migrants would affect any trial in the UK. Public opinion in the UK is anti migrant and the result would be the same especially if it was murder against a tourist.

. I'm British and can say unequivocally you are talking horse poo. Thankfully your anti-migrant mentality is not embraced by the majority as you would have us believe.

99.3% agree with anti-migrant, the rest are a bunch of Corbyn supporting dandies!

As a Brit living in Britain I am anti migrant. Would I be happy to see a migrant take a fall for a British murderer. 100% not, so maybe you might want to educate yourself a little better.

Edited December 24, 2015 by berybert