Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[greenchair]

Why not?

The Thai police do it to peoples lives in 'safe rooms' to get the answers they want; why can't it work the other way?

A bit nearer the mark are the serious allegations of Torture by the Thai police of the B2 which still haven't been investigated and probably never will be despite calls from Amnesty and HRW

Amnesty International last week called for an independent investigation into allegations that torture was used to get confessions in the case. The two men said they were innocent and gave confessions in fear of their lives. The Thai government denied the torture claims.

Human Rights Watch called for the ruling to be reviewed, in a statement following the verdict.

In a trial where torture allegations by the two accused were left uninvestigated and DNA evidence was called into question by Thailand's most prominent forensic pathologist, both the ruling and these death sentences are profoundly disturbing, said Phil Robertson, the deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Asia division.

You'll notice that amnesty international is protesting about the way the confession was obtained. Not about the verdict or the b2 innocence. These are separate cases. If the b2 are guilty of murder, they still are entitled to their rights. And as such have the right to file a separate case against the police.

The burmese government is not against the guilty verdict either, but would like to have the death penalty sentence removed.

The judge said the sentence was based on the evidence presented by the prosecutors, and lack of reasonable arguments by the defense.

The verdict had little to do with the confession.

You'll also notice HRW has called for the ruling to be reviewed but perhaps you missed that bit.........conveniently.

Yes, they are. Given that they are against the death penalty.

It seems you are having trouble distinguishing between "they are innocent and we will fight to set them free " and "we are opposed to the death penalty and would like a review of the ruling. Perhaps you missed the the slight difference there. ..

Conveniently.

[HUH]

You'll also notice HRW has called for the ruling to be reviewed but perhaps you missed that bit.........conveniently.

Yes, they are. Given that they are against the death penalty.

It seems you are having trouble distinguishing between "they are innocent and we will fight to set them free " and "we are opposed to the death penalty and would like a review of the ruling. Perhaps you missed the the slight difference there. ..

Conveniently.

Not sure what part your reading but here it is again:

Human Rights Watch called for the ruling to be reviewed, in a statement following the verdict.

In a trial where torture allegations by the two accused were left uninvestigated and DNA evidence was called into question by Thailand's most prominent forensic pathologist, both the ruling and these death sentences are profoundly disturbing, said Phil Robertson, the deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Asia division.

Edited January 3, 2016 by HUH

[lucky11]

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.[/size]

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:

[/size]Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .[/size]

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

Where there is no chain of custody DNA evidence is meaningless. Simple are that.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, unless you have an agenda.

I was just about to respond to another of this member's posts, then saw your response. That's my conclusion too, this guy is posting over and over on this thread pushing what he himself admits at one point is just his opinion--the B2 did it--but ridiculing the opposing view, gloating over the verdict, and otherwise acting like he's either got a stake in the outcome, or, sad to say, is over-involved to an unhealthy extent with the case, as some times happens.

I mean, look at that sentence above, completely misconstruing the significance of Taupin's statement, twisting it to the disadvantage of the defendants, and augmenting the wows and exclamation points with an applauding emoticon. That's nearly deranged in my book.

Are you profiling me? I've never heard of NEARLY deranged before, what does that mean? A bit like, almost perfect or nearly exactly!!

Edited January 3, 2016 by lucky11

[iReason]

Back for more misdirection.

Pointless.

Edited January 3, 2016 by iReason

[AGareth2]

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.[/size]

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:

[/size]Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .[/size]

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

Where there is no chain of custody DNA evidence is meaningless. Simple are that.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, unless you have an agenda.

I was just about to respond to another of this member's posts, then saw your response. That's my conclusion too, this guy is posting over and over on this thread pushing what he himself admits at one point is just his opinion--the B2 did it--but ridiculing the opposing view, gloating over the verdict, and otherwise acting like he's either got a stake in the outcome, or, sad to say, is over-involved to an unhealthy extent with the case, as some times happens.

I mean, look at that sentence above, completely misconstruing the significance of Taupin's statement, twisting it to the disadvantage of the defendants, and augmenting the wows and exclamation points with an applauding emoticon. That's nearly deranged in my book.

Are you profiling me? I've never heard of NEARLY deranged before, what does that mean? A bit like, almost perfect or nearly exactly!!

typo maybe

could be an r instead of an n

[Artisi]

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.[/size]

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:


[/size]Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .[/size]

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

Where there is no chain of custody DNA evidence is meaningless. Simple are that.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, unless you have an agenda.

I was just about to respond to another of this member's posts, then saw your response. That's my conclusion too, this guy is posting over and over on this thread pushing what he himself admits at one point is just his opinion--the B2 did it--but ridiculing the opposing view, gloating over the verdict, and otherwise acting like he's either got a stake in the outcome, or, sad to say, is over-involved to an unhealthy extent with the case, as some times happens.

I mean, look at that sentence above, completely misconstruing the significance of Taupin's statement, twisting it to the disadvantage of the defendants, and augmenting the wows and exclamation points with an applauding emoticon. That's nearly deranged in my book.

Are you profiling me? I've never heard of NEARLY deranged before, what does that mean? A bit like, almost perfect or nearly exactly!!

typo maybe
could be an r instead of an n

Rearly sounds about right - a real pain in the arse.....

[Khun Han]

Isn't it strange: hardly so much as a peep at the thread from The Team since Friday, then Team Leader pops up and suddenly they're all here, even the really daft 'headless chicken' one .

[iReason]

“Jaktip Chaijinda, deputy head of national police, said a quick resolution of the case would result in a speedy recovery of tourist numbers.”

He went on: “Today the case should be finished. We want to clear it up as soon as possible so our tourist industry can bounce back.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-police-defend-4374673#ixzz3FAJYIY2b

[Khun Han]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I would be into my government like a dog after a bone, national newspapers, the beeb, Sky News, the lot.

[lucky11]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I'll have a go - in the way they performed from start to finish, absolutely not, it was abysmal!! Regards, getting the right people that raped my daughter (before killing both her and David) absolutely.

[lucky11]

“Jaktip Chaijinda, deputy head of national police, said a quick resolution of the case would result in a speedy recovery of tourist numbers.”

He went on: “Today the case should be finished. We want to clear it up as soon as possible so our tourist industry can bounce back.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-police-defend-4374673#ixzz3FAJYIY2b

All governments would act the same. It's called damage limitation after a situation that reflects your country in a negative way.

[sartoric]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I'll have a go - in the way they performed from start to finish, absolutely not, it was abysmal!! Regards, getting the right people that raped my daughter (before killing both her and David) absolutely.

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

[lucky11]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I'll have a go - in the way they performed from start to finish, absolutely not, it was abysmal!! Regards, getting the right people that raped my daughter (before killing both her and David) absolutely.

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

......Because, they were found guilty by the court, as the DNA evidence showed beyond doubt that they had raped her - asked Jonathon Head or David's brother, they know. Andy Hall also knows, but is in denial mode as he is not man enough to admit that he made the 'mother of errors' with his initial stance.

[AGareth2]

DNA does not show rape

it only shows physical presence

rape is about consent

[Khun Han]

Jaktip Chaijinda, deputy head of national police, said a quick resolution of the case would result in a speedy recovery of tourist numbers.

He went on: Today the case should be finished. We want to clear it up as soon as possible so our tourist industry can bounce back.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-police-defend-4374673#ixzz3FAJYIY2b

All governments would act the same. It's called damage limitation after a situation that reflects your country in a negative way.

More nonsense from you. First World countries don't mention such things because their leaders and spokespeople are almost invariably emotionally mature and politically savvy people who understand how insensitive and selfish such comments sound. As highlighted by IReason, it's all we seem to keep hearing from the Thai authorities (not to mention a bizarre and wildly inaccurate comment by the PM), and particularly from the RTP who should have been focussing solely on solving the case.

[lkv]

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

......Because, they were found guilty by the court, as the DNA evidence showed beyond doubt that they had raped her - asked Jonathon Head or David's brother, they know. Andy Hall also knows, but is in denial mode as he is not man enough to admit that he made the 'mother of errors' with his initial stance.

If they performed abysmally from start to finish ===> DNA evidence is not reliable. The way this DNA evidence was obtained is unreliable.

If the DNA evidence is not reliable, that means the DNA evidence does NOT show beyond doubt what you are describing.

Therefore, the verdict was based on unreliable evidence.

Do you now get it?

Edited January 3, 2016 by lkv

[smedly]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I would find out the truth from certain people

[sartoric]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I'll have a go - in the way they performed from start to finish, absolutely not, it was abysmal!! Regards, getting the right people that raped my daughter (before killing both her and David) absolutely.

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

......Because, they were found guilty by the court, as the DNA evidence showed beyond doubt that they had raped her - asked Jonathon Head or David's brother, they know. Andy Hall also knows, but is in denial mode as he is not man enough to admit that he made the 'mother of errors' with his initial stance.

Right, a squeaky clean and transparent court eh ?

The DNA evidence was rubbish.

You took Jonathan Heads tweets out of context to misconstrue their meaning.

David's brother is grieving and likely ignorant of the Thai way.

Andy Hall is working on the appeal.

Damn, I vowed not to engage the serfs.

Edited January 3, 2016 by sartoric

[lucky11]

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

......Because, they were found guilty by the court, as the DNA evidence showed beyond doubt that they had raped her - asked Jonathon Head or David's brother, they know. Andy Hall also knows, but is in denial mode as he is not man enough to admit that he made the 'mother of errors' with his initial stance.

If they performed abysmally from start to finish ===> DNA evidence is not reliable. The way this DNA evidence was obtained is unreliable.

If the DNA evidence is not reliable, that means the DNA evidence does NOT show beyond doubt what you are describing.

Therefore, the verdict was based on unreliable evidence.

Do you now get it?

Nothing to do with how it was obtained - more to do that it was shown to belong to the B2. The BIB you are referring to would not have obtained this anyway, it would have been the available forensics team who would carried out the sampling.

[Khun Han]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I'll have a go - in the way they performed from start to finish, absolutely not, it was abysmal!! Regards, getting the right people that raped my daughter (before killing both her and David) absolutely.

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

......Because, they were found guilty by the court, as the DNA evidence showed beyond doubt that they had raped her - asked Jonathon Head or David's brother, they know. Andy Hall also knows, but is in denial mode as he is not man enough to admit that he made the 'mother of errors' with his initial stance.

I've reported this post to moderators because of the poster's continuing mis-representation of Jonathan Head.

[AleG]

Isn't it strange: hardly so much as a peep at the thread from The Team since Friday, then Team Leader pops up and suddenly they're all here, even the really daft 'headless chicken' one .

Joined up recently and already stalking people?

[daveAustin]

A question which I know will be ignored by some......

If your daughter were Hannah would you be happy with the BiB stuff...........?

Just answer my question..........If 'some' ignore I will take it further...

I'll have a go - in the way they performed from start to finish, absolutely not, it was abysmal!! Regards, getting the right people that raped my daughter (before killing both her and David) absolutely.

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

......Because, they were found guilty by the court, as the DNA evidence showed beyond doubt that they had raped her - asked Jonathon Head or David's brother, they know. Andy Hall also knows, but is in denial mode as he is not man enough to admit that he made the 'mother of errors' with his initial stance.

If not trolling or a five-minute newbie you are very green, my friend. Just take a look at all the cockups regards the dna and all the dirt on Nomsod et al. The brother and Head will simply believe what they've been told. They're as green as you.

[Khun Han]

So, if they performed abysmally from start to finish, how can you be sure they got the right people ?

......Because, they were found guilty by the court, as the DNA evidence showed beyond doubt that they had raped her - asked Jonathon Head or David's brother, they know. Andy Hall also knows, but is in denial mode as he is not man enough to admit that he made the 'mother of errors' with his initial stance.

If they performed abysmally from start to finish ===> DNA evidence is not reliable. The way this DNA evidence was obtained is unreliable.

If the DNA evidence is not reliable, that means the DNA evidence does NOT show beyond doubt what you are describing.

Therefore, the verdict was based on unreliable evidence.

Do you now get it?

Nothing to do with how it was obtained - more to do that it was shown to belong to the B2. The BIB you are referring to would not have obtained this anyway, it would have been the available forensics team who would carried out the sampling.

Wasn't it kept in Voranai Tuvichien's fridge for a while?

[lucky11]

How can you possibly take something such as what he tweeted out of context? He said the DNA evidence was sound and the verdict also.

So you think he still believes they are innocent?

[MaxLee]

"therefore, COMPLETELY erroneous (wrong) to claim a DNA match on the basis of the position of mere alleles on a DNA molecule without statistics to determine the probability"

Exactly. Asian people are the most similar DNA phenotype (except for Native Americans).

Any two Americans (large ethnic mixture from all over the world) have about a 7% chance of matching any given loci on a chromosome.

I would guess any two Asians would be even higher.

Is it 100%? 90%? 80%? 70%?

This would change the interpretation of the DNA tests considerably.

when this verdict was made public on the 24th I made a point about who the Judge consulted to reach his conclusion about DNA as he could hardly be considered an expert, it seems all he did was accept testimoney from mostly the police who claimed they tested DNA and it was a match, the defence was very weak on this and as I said they could have done more but again maybe they were waiting for an expected appeal either way. I still maintain that original samples need to be produced (if they exist) and from there retested, it is then up to the defence if results from any retest they carry out are released in court, either way by all accounts the claimed DNA testing carried out by the police is unsound and shambolic

It is also worth noting that the hang'em high club have effectively been silenced

WRONG, those nifty judges were threatened and bribed behind closed doors by the powerful influential Koh Tao mafia to push through their planned outcome, that all of us witness now....

Money talks, corruption IS the law in Thailand.....

..... (Especially as a tiny little judge), you mess around with those influential island Mafia, you end up dead the next morning,.... as a powerless tiny judge, you wanna end up dead???? ...... No???.... Absolutely not, right?

Edited January 3, 2016 by MaxLee

[Khun Han]

Isn't it strange: hardly so much as a peep at the thread from The Team since Friday, then Team Leader pops up and suddenly they're all here, even the really daft 'headless chicken' one .

Joined up recently and already stalking people?

You're unlikely to get any sympathy outside of your little team matey. By the way, your emoticons seem to be stuck.

[lucky11]

How can something HE tweeted be deemed as being misrepresentation?

Andy Hall was trying his utmost to get him to revert back to his original position. This implies to me that the tweet is genuine and this cannot be argued against.

[sartoric]

How can you possibly take something such as what he tweeted out of context? He said the DNA evidence was sound and the verdict also.

So you think he still believes they are innocent?

He said "IF the DNA evidence was sound, the verdict wa sound".

You missed out the "if" you also missed the sarcasm.

[lkv]

Nothing to do with how it was obtained - more to do that it was shown to belong to the B2. The BIB you are referring to would not have obtained this anyway, it would have been the available forensics team who would carried out the sampling.

So if say hypothetically speaking, and forgive my language, I would be law enforcement, take you in a room, suffocate you and then put a gun to your head and tell you to masturbate, and then your DNA would magically appear in a vagina, it would not matter how it was obtained would it?

[AleG]

DNA does not show rape

it only shows physical presence

rape is about consent

Right, andthrough out all this they forgot to mention anything about having consentual sex with the victim, to anyone at any time.