SURVEY: Do you believe the 2 Burmese found guilty of the Koh Tao Murders are guilty?

[ianf]

No and Never, these two Burmese are purely innocent, but seem to be guilty of committing crimes in the first place coming to works in Thailand.

How can they be purely innocent

You can not argue against DNA

Read the family statement

They where actually in Court.

Yes they were in court, not understanding a word of Thai or the nuances of the sweetness of the Thai Wai.

[ianf]

The B2 went back to the crime scene at 5am to clean up, retreive their belongings, drag David Miller into the water, and wash the blood from their bodies in the sea. If murder and rape wasn't enough they then stole David's phone which they discovered during the cleanup. It's a pity their execution is not going to be shown live as a deterrent to other itinerant misfits.

What an utter disgraceful post.

[TheCruncher]

I think it would put the story to rest if the UK did get a semen sample and have a DNA profile (which going by the Millers reaction I think they did) I think there is evidence that the public are not informed about.

You can tell what has been done by looking at his reaction " amazing" so they're guilty in your opinion ?

The only DNA found was supposed to have been found in Hannah. Now why would the Millar family be happy with the verdict yet Hannah's family are not ?

Do you think Hannah's family were not told ?

Do you have a link to a source that proves your claim?

In the statement from Hannah's family I couldn't find any comment where they said if they were happy or unhappy with the verdict.

[Delcavom]

I believe they are guilty...DNA is hard to dispute.....

However botched the investigation turned out to be DNA does not lie....

The DNA would prove what? Rape? Certainly not murder.

So the DNA proves rape...OK so those boys raped and someone else came along and killed the two...

I guess it is possible...

The DNA could prove that if you believe it. How they were able to test it only once and not verify it because they ran out of DNA is an absolute joke. You dont find that a little strange? Do you know how little DNA you need for testing but they are not able to give us any to verify?

[smotherb]

I believe they are guilty...DNA is hard to dispute.....

However botched the investigation turned out to be DNA does not lie....

The DNA would prove what? Rape? Certainly not murder.

Consensual sex?

No, the DNA does not prove consensual sex, rape, or murder. If the DNA tests were correct, it may prove sex.

[jing jing]

I think it would put the story to rest if the UK did get a semen sample and have a DNA profile (which going by the Millers reaction I think they did) I think there is evidence that the public are not informed about.

You can tell what has been done by looking at his reaction " amazing" so they're guilty in your opinion ?

The only DNA found was supposed to have been found in Hannah. Now why would the Millar family be happy with the verdict yet Hannah's family are not ?

Do you think Hannah's family were not told ?

Do you have a link to a source that proves your claim?

In the statement from Hannah's family I couldn't find any comment where they said if they were happy or unhappy with the verdict.

Don't be obtuse. If you have not yet read the Witheridge family's statement, please do so, then compare and contrast the wording of it with that of the Millers'.

If you are unable to detect the profound difference between the two families' reactions to this ill-conceived verdict, then that would go a long way toward clarifying how you are able to defend it.

[zoza]

Until the statement by the Miller family, I would have naturally said no. That statement changed everything. If they can clearly and categorically say that after all they've been through and all the evidence they must have combed through and along with advice they must have received from the UK police, I have to say the same thing. GUILTY.

The so called "evidence" has been going through so many stages I don't think anyone in a normal court could do anything but discredit it and make a either let them go or make a retrial....

In the first reports I thought I read dna cleared them and they were released by the police.....

After a few weeks they decided the dna does match and arrested them again?

I don't know the exact facts but I hope these boys get a fair trial with a good lawyer..

If they did it hang em high..... As long as they guilty.....

There is a ton of wrong information out there. The Burmese were interviewed and DNA and fingerprints collected right after the murder happened. Same with dozens of other people. DNA testing started a couple days later and some of the first suspects like the Brit were ruled out. First arrest came a week later. And a couple days after the second arrest as the second guy had fled the island and changed his appearance.

the after court announcements by the media.stated the announcements by the police that they had DNA matches on

the two Burmese boys was dated two days BEFORE the DNA test date on the DNA documents. not very reassuring and throws doubt on

the whole DNA tests credibility even before you get to the disappearing DNA sample/clothes/cctv/phone/ect.ect

this information was released on or after the 24th of December (nice date)and was not played up as much as you

would of thought but neither did all the other things that were wrong in most peoples eyes.

DNA testing never ruled the Burmese out.

[smotherb]

Ask yourself a couple of questions (1) I am a migrant worker with limited education and I committed a vicous crime, would I hang around from time of the crime until Oct 3rd to be arrested, or flee like hell out of dodge ?

(2) I am an Island Boy/Man with connections and feel I am isolated from justice, just do it and sit back and watch the chips fall !!

If there is a strong Mafia on the Island, the Army needs to break it up or kill them !!

Donald? I didn't know you were on TV.

[TheCruncher]

You can tell what has been done by looking at his reaction " amazing" so they're guilty in your opinion ?

The only DNA found was supposed to have been found in Hannah. Now why would the Millar family be happy with the verdict yet Hannah's family are not ?

Do you think Hannah's family were not told ?

Do you have a link to a source that proves your claim?

In the statement from Hannah's family I couldn't find any comment where they said if they were happy or unhappy with the verdict.

Don't be obtuse. If you have not yet read the Witheridge family's statement, please do so, then compare and contrast the wording of it with that of the Millers'.

If you are unable to detect the profound difference between the two families' reactions to this ill-conceived verdict, then that would go a long way toward clarifying how you are able to defend it.

I did read the statement, as I made clear in my previous post already, but I only read what is written and don't make insinuations about the mind of people I don't know.

The difference I saw was that the Miller family clearly stated they were happy with the verdict, while the Witheridge family said they would evaluate the verdict and make a statement later, but clearly there was no mention if they agreed or not.

I think with the last line of your post you perfectly described yourself, not me.

[smotherb]

Maybe this is a time for all countries in the world to establish a consensus of INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE SYSTEM with detailed procedures, etc. ?

Great idea; as I tell my graduate students. Now, just HOW do you do that?

Other than the myriad problems trying to get all countries to reach a consensus, especially with detailed procedures; just how would you enforce such an agreement?

[smotherb]

I don't know whether or not they were guilty but by American Standards of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt", they should have been acquitted, since there was so much contradictory evidence. By Thai standards of "saving face" over administration of justice they were a convenient scapegoat.

How much face has been saved when the overwhelming majority don't believe they're guilty

You mean the overwhelming majority of TV posters? Not sure our opinions have much effect on Thai face.

[smotherb]

Very interesting news article being run by the BBC back in the UK.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35170419

I guess it's not just the members of this forum that feel they were unfairly tried.

Good article, but what I found interesting was that they never mentioned anything about them having David's cell phone in the article. Why? Shouldn't that be as important to refute as the DNA "evidence" ?

A cell phone can be stolen, found, given, or planted. It does not prove murder.

[scorecard]

Maybe this is a time for all countries in the world to establish a consensus of INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE SYSTEM with detailed procedures, etc. ?

Great idea; as I tell my graduate students. Now, just HOW do you do that?

Other than the myriad problems trying to get all countries to reach a consensus, especially with detailed procedures; just how would you enforce such an agreement?

I see merit in establishing 'global' standards in some areas and justice or some areas of justice should be one of them.

Easy to say of course but nobody would disagree it would be a long very hard road to get it established.

But that doesn't mean the world should not try!

On a different slant, IMHO the real mandate of the UN is to work towards establishing a 'civil world'.

What have they achieved in this regard on any front? Zero.

In regard to graduate students, I too tell my grad students to think big / think about the big picture / think global / think global civil society.

Edited December 28, 2015 by scorecard

[smotherb]

The B2 went back to the crime scene at 5am to clean up, retreive their belongings, drag David Miller into the water, and wash the blood from their bodies in the sea. If murder and rape wasn't enough they then stole David's phone which they discovered during the cleanup. It's a pity their execution is not going to be shown live as a deterrent to other itinerant misfits.

I looked into that same retroactive crystal ball you must have and saw B2 stumbling upon the crime scene, finding the two already murdered, and . . . .

Edited December 28, 2015 by smotherb

[jing jing]

Don't be obtuse. If you have not yet read the Witheridge family's statement, please do so, then compare and contrast the wording of it with that of the Millers'.

If you are unable to detect the profound difference between the two families' reactions to this ill-conceived verdict, then that would go a long way toward clarifying how you are able to defend it.

I did read the statement, as I made clear in my previous post already, but I only read what is written and don't make insinuations about the mind of people I don't know.

The difference I saw was that the Miller family clearly stated they were happy with the verdict, while the Witheridge family said they would evaluate the verdict and make a statement later, but clearly there was no mention if they agreed or not.

I think with the last line of your post you perfectly described yourself, not me.

I would submit that had the Witheridges agreed with the results of the investigation and trial, they most likely would have so stated, as the Millers did so vociferously. The ambiguous, though restrained and diplomatic nature of their response suggests otherwise.

The subtleties of this entire tragic episode apparently escape those who would opine in favor of the prosecution and the verdict rendered.

[smotherb]

Maybe this is a time for all countries in the world to establish a consensus of INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE SYSTEM with detailed procedures, etc. ?

Great idea; as I tell my graduate students. Now, just HOW do you do that?

Other than the myriad problems trying to get all countries to reach a consensus, especially with detailed procedures; just how would you enforce such an agreement?

I see merit in establishing 'global' standards in some areas and justice or some areas of justice should be one of them.

Easy to say of course but nobody would disagree it would be a long very hard road to get it established.

But that doesn't mean the world should not try!

On a different slant, IMHO the real mandate of the UN is to work towards establishing a 'civil world'.

What have they achieved in this regard on any front? Zero.

In regard to graduate students, I too tell my grad students to think big / think about the big picture / think global / think global civil society.

Your response would not earn a good grade in my class. You have avoided the direct question and responded by pontification. I did not trivialize the potential benefits of global standards, but I did ask HOW you could do it.

[smotherb]

Well, on a lazy Monday morning, I read through this topic, made several comments, and came to the conclusion that like any other controversial issue, there will be differences of opinion.

I can understand not wanting to comment if you have issues with the government, police, or judicial systems. I can understand a not guilty vote if you have not seen enough evidence to deny reasonable doubt. I can understand a guilty vote if you believe enough evidence ties B2 to the scene. I can understand wanting a third selection(s) in the vote; however, in reality, there are only two selections—guilty or not guilty.

I think we need to put this into perspective. There appears among many of us an element of Thai bashing: a pronounced distrust in the system, a belief that money usurps fact, that scapegoats are an easy solution, etc., ad infinitum.

I think there is little argument that the reporting was and is inadequate; that evidence may have been overlooked, contaminated, or otherwise mishandled; and that a better system may make it more difficult to engineer a verdict.

Consequently, those common beliefs may have clouded our objectivity. I think it has clouded mine.

I would like to think the B2 are innocent, but the only concrete evidence I have seen reported is the DNA found in Ms. Witheridge came from B2—remember the inadequacies not only in reporting, but in the handling of the DNA testing.

As has been said, DNA evidence, even if correct, does not necessarily make them guilty of murder. However, to many guilt-sayers, it may just be the crux of their decision. Nonetheless, I still have reasonable doubt.

Edited December 28, 2015 by smotherb

[Dogmatix]

The Burmese might have done it because they were definitely on the beach that night but the evidence that they committed the murders is purely circumstantial and not terrible convincing IMHO. If they are to be executed one would hope that their guilt would be established beyond reasonable doubt. Perhaps the appeals will establish that, if the convicted men live long enough. I can only say that I think it is unlikely that they committed the murders but I can't rule it out.

Philosophically this survey is flawed because it only allows a one shot choice of two Burmese suspects and evidence for and against other potential suspects, including Thais, has not been fully explored and made available to the public. This is not a criticism of the judicial proceedings because the judiciary was only at liberty to consider the evidence presented in the prosecution's case which relied solely on evidence provided by police, who in Thailand have the monopoly on investigation (some other countries allow prosecutors and judges to do their own investigation). So the court had only a one shot choice too. Perhaps they would have judged differently with a broader field. We will never know.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Dogmatix

[Moonsterk]

The investigation got off to a good start:

"The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok."

"He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders"

"The southern police chief also assured the public that there was no arrest of scapegoats in this murder case as it now is a focal attention of the world.

He also dismissed any suggestion of local mafias or influential people that could twist the investigation with promise that local influence would pose no obstacle to the police investigation."

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

But soon turned into a farce. The real killers are still having their merry way out there…….

That was one of the first reporting errors in this case and was later corrected.

Mon was not arrested but brought in for questioning.

And yes, I believe Mon and Nom Sod and their gang of boyz-will-be-boyz drug-rapers had everything to do with this and the Myanmar lads are innocent, convicted on circumstantial evidence, judiciary inertia and a nation soured beyond redemption with corruption.

So.... how's that monastery, Nom Sod, getting any absolution there?

[Aj Mick]

manarak,

In another article on TV, we are told by a spokesman of the Courts of Justice that the decision was based on evidence and the summary was now available for everyone to view (in English).

Unfortunately, we are not told where that summary can be found - see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?/topic/882014-Myanmar-military-chief-weighs-in-on-Koh-Tao-murder-case

I reformatted the Summary as-best-I-could as posted on Andy Hall's Twitter page:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=356900

Go to 400% on page 1 -- pages are not in sequence.

After many long days (21, was it?) of hearings, spread over several months, the judges' summary and verdict was, in its English version, a six page document.

Page 1 outlines the charges.

Page 2 and most of page 3 deals outlines the RTP's rape story and DNA evidence in somewhat salacious detail. It states "under commonly accepted international standard the is DNA testing is beyond reasonable doubt, persuasive and obviously proves the offenders identities". Toward the bottom of page 3 the murder, as described by the RTP comes into the summary.

Page 4 continues with the RTP version of the murder, then goes on to the charges of an alien entering and residing without a permit….. interestingly, no one has been charged with employing an undocumented alien.

Page 5, in the top third, mentions the defence arguments, which are adjudged to be "without grounds and not sufficient to refute the veracity of the evidence established by the prosecutor with respect to the DNA testing, or thereby affect the Court's ruling"

Page 5, the remainder, and page 6 cover the verdict and the sentencing.

In short the muddled case presented by the Prosecutor and the RTP was accepted. If the defence was considered in chambers, it was not presented or discussed in the judges' summary and verdict.

Verily, a sad day for justice and Thailand….. Closure for the Miller family, maybe, but the Witheridge family are more circumspect, with good reason…… and let's not forget a pair of young men wasting their days away in shackles on death row for the crime of well connected thugs, protected by the full force of the so called law enforcers.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Aj Mick

[Aj Mick]

2 young Brits brutally murdered.

2 young men sentenced to death.

How do we handle that?

Let's make a poll to increase traffic and entertain the readership (the other thread on the subject is slowing down)

Or is it only me??

Makes sense to have the poll. The "Suspects found guilty" thread seems to have become dominated by supporters of the Prosecution and RTP case…… A vociferous few who are determined to keep the heat off the well connected thugs who should be on trial.

A poll establishes where people stand. Despite the efforts of a few shills here and the powers that be to keep this travesty quiet, folks just don't wear corrupt incompetence.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Aj Mick

[StealthEnergiser]

2 young Brits brutally murdered.

2 young men sentenced to death.

How do we handle that?

Let's make a poll to increase traffic and entertain the readership (the other thread on the subject is slowing down)

Or is it only me??

Makes sense to have the poll. The "Suspects found guilty" thread seems to have become dominated by supporters of the Prosecution and RTP case…… A vociferous few who are determined to keep the heat off the well connected thugs who should be on trial.

A poll establishes where people stand. Despite the efforts of a few shills here and the powers that be to keep this travesty quiet, folks just don't wear corrupt incompetence.

We'll Said AJ Mick

[superal]

I believe they are guilty...DNA is hard to dispute.....

However botched the investigation turned out to be DNA does not lie....

The DNA would prove what? Rape? Certainly not murder.

Consensual sex?

No, the DNA does not prove consensual sex, rape, or murder. If the DNA tests were correct, it may prove sex.

If the DNA testing / results were conclusive and irrefutable against the B2 for me it would be a case of guilty of rape and murder . Do you think that the two crimes were carried out by two different parties ? So first there was the rape and 1 hour later the murder ? what motive for murder ? a mobile phone ? Do you think the victims would have hung around the same scene after a rape had taken place ? My only question is what took place first , rape or murder .

Has a report been given by the UK observation police who may be able to comment on the vital DNA analysis credibility ? At this stage from what I have learnt , there is insufficient evidence to even bring this case to court if in the western world . However this is Thailand and as we all now know things work differently here and are pretty scary . Stay out of trouble over here I say .

[spidermike007]

There is an absolute presumption that the rape and murder were committed by the same person or persons. What if Nomsod raped her and then had his punks kill her? If he did not spill there would not be much of his DNA present. Therefore no evidence.

But, to answer the survey, absolutely not. No chance on earth they are guilty. Not one iota.

[Heng]

Just internet scuttlebutt, but the supposed cost of this 'guilty' verdict was between 100-150 million.

[boomerangutang]

If this case were going on in the US jurisdiction, things would be different. On the one hand, the US has a provision for 'cold case' files can be looked at again (months/years later), particularly re; major crimes without statute of limitations, such as murder. In Thailand, the statute is 20 years, and looking again at a cold case murder rarely if ever happens here.

But we're in Thailand, so all that sort of comparison is moot. However, being in Thailand, where defamation of character lawsuits are threatened and tossed around by rich well-connected VIP's with abandon.... why couldn't the defendants file defamation suits against their accusers - the RTP? Of course that couldn't happen, but I mention it as a thought experiment. The defendants are poor and powerless. Yet, if they were from rich Thai families, the dynamics would be 180 degrees different.

[greenchair]

The B2 went back to the crime scene at 5am to clean up, retreive their belongings, drag David Miller into the water, and wash the blood from their bodies in the sea. If murder and rape wasn't enough they then stole David's phone which they discovered during the cleanup. It's a pity their execution is not going to be shown live as a deterrent to other itinerant misfits.

That's right. take out the dna. Take out the bungled investigation. It is the b2s own story that is off with the fairies. They went swimming for no apparent reason at 1 o'clock in the morning in the rain. They went back to their room leaving many things behind. Including a guitar which is a red flag in itself. Some say the guitar was left at ac bar. So what was the urgency to go pick it up at 5am. Some say it was left at the beach. to leave that guitar on the beach, they must have been in a huge hurry to get outta there. If they were going back to ac bar to get the guitar, why did Wei Phyo then go back to the beach. Oh that's right, he left his shoes there for some reason. But the most damning thing is this telephone that he miraculously found at 5am. I supported their story of the night time activities completely. It was slightly strange, but plausible. But when you add the 5am activities , By god you would need to be a good defense lawyer to explain that away. I do not support the death penalty, though people should understand that in Thailand it is always commutted to life. They will receive the kings pardon of 5 years every year. They will spend about 20 years in prison. Then begin their lives again. Hannah will not have that privilege, neither will David.

[Heng]

Was the DNA evidence just on the cigarettes (evidence of the suspects being at the crime scene) or actually on the victims (more indicative of being involved in the crime)?

[smotherb]

smotherb said, “No, the DNA does not prove consensual sex, rape, or murder. If the DNA tests were correct, it may prove sex.”

superal said, “If the DNA testing / results were conclusive and irrefutable against the B2 for me it would be a case of guilty of rape and murder . Do you think that the two crimes were carried out by two different parties ? So first there was the rape and 1 hour later the murder ? what motive for murder ? a mobile phone ? Do you think the victims would have hung around the same scene after a rape had taken place ? My only question is what took place first , rape or murder . . . ”

First, you say, “If the DNA testing / results were conclusive and irrefutable against the B2 for me it would be a case of guilty of rape and murder . . . ”

You have provided a possibility which contradicts your guilty of rape and murder statement. Can you deny it is possible Ms. Witheridge had sex with someone, then was later murdered by another?

You must agree it is possible because you then try to justify your statement of guilt by saying, “ . . . Do you think that the two crimes were carried out by two different parties ? So first there was the rape and 1 hour later the murder ? what motive for murder ? a mobile phone ? Do you think the victims would have hung around the same scene after a rape had taken place ? ”

The only new issue you bring is motive. Remember where you are; motive may be as simple as loss of face.

Then you bring up another rather unpleasant possibility, you say, “My only question is what took place first , rape or murder .”

Therefore, if the murder came first, B2 may have had sex with Ms. Witheridge’s corpse?

A scenario which fits your statements may be B2 found Ms. Witheridge’s and Mr. Miller’s bodies on the beach, stole Mr. Miller’s cell phone, then committed necrophilia.

Although, this is a rather distasteful scenario, one cannot deny its possibility.

Surely, the most logical consequence a rational person can reach is there is not enough known evidence to conclude a guilty verdict beyond a reasonable doubt; as so many posters have previously stated.

[swoods58]

A lot of people are saying guilty. Once you've got two people arrested it's not hard to get their DNA is it? And leave 2 21 year olds in a locked room for a week with some pornography and a box of tissues and I'd think you would have a sperm sample too. It's all about the chain of evidence with DNA not the actual DNA. Anyone can get DNA.