chilli42 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I was under the impression permanent residence was a prerequisite for a citizenship application. I am planning to apply next year. I believe your understanding is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli42 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Hello, can I know the reason why someone would apply for PR ? No more immigration visit even once a year ? No visa required after a PR. You only need a re-entry permit to get in and out of the country. Best to get multiple which is open ended but needs to be renewed every 12 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB2 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I was under the impression permanent residence was a prerequisite for a citizenship application. I am planning to apply next year. I believe your understanding is correct No - under the new regulations introduced during 2014, it no longer a requirement to hold PR status for 5 years prior to requesting naturalization You can now apply for Thai citizenship directly - the latest rules are given here(Thai-website) and here(English pdf document) The explanation given to me for the changes (faster processing of RP applications, and an easier naturalization process) was that the new military government wants to encourage foreign business investment (both from new investors - and improve confidence for further long term investment by existing foreign investors) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB2 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) Unless you denounce your own citizenship your not likely to get Thai citizenship. Absolute horse poo... Well.... at the risk of going off topic... Not completely - there's sufficient smoke to suspect the need to "denounce your own citizenship" in the latest Thai naturalization requirements online here The naturalization process does require you to produce a letter of intention to relinquish your existing nationality - see wording below:- ... The guidelines for consideration to naturalize foreigners into Thai given by the Interior Minister and approved on October 14, 2009 require the applicant for naturalization into Thai to show a document submitted to the embassy or consulate of the country he/she holds nationality to indicate his/her intention to relinquish his/her current nationality upon approval of naturalization into Thai. ... Further, on you receiving Thai nationality, the Ministry of the Interior will inform your embassy that you have now been issued with Thai nationality as per the paragraph below:- ... Section 6. After the applicant has been naturalized into Thai, in case the country of the applicant has an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the embassy or consulate in Thailand of the Thai naturalization. And if the country of the applicant does not have an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to notify the country of the applicant of the Thai naturalization. ... So you are required to denounce/relinquish you own citizenship as part of the application for Thai citizenship - but do you actually have to go through with it? That is the big question. I am aware that 'letters of Intent' exist in a grey legal area (see link here ) however, if you refuse to play ball, potentially the Ministry of the Interior could also cancel your newly issued nationality since the applicant has not acted in good faith. Dual citizenship for minors up to 20 years old is permitted in Thailand. Dual citizenship for adults is 'unclear' though tolerated. I wonder though what some of this forums Thai legal experts have to say about the above naturalization requirements? Edited January 4, 2016 by SteveB2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesthailand Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Just to clarify: the 2008 Nationality Act relaxed the rules for a foreigner married to a Thai woman to allow them to obtain Thai nationality without PR; if you are a foreign man without a Thai wife, you still need 5 years PR. Since the OP has a Thai wife, I would suggest applying for Thai nationality rather than PR, provided his current country of citizenship allows for dual nationality. The 70,000 baht salary is enough. I was under the impression permanent residence was a prerequisite for a citizenship application.I am planning to apply next year. I believe your understanding is correct No - under the new regulations introduced during 2014, it no longer a requirement to hold PR status for 5 years prior to requesting naturalization You can now apply for Thai citizenship directly - the latest rules are given here(Thai-website) and here(English pdf document) The explanation given to me for the changes (faster processing of RP applications, and an easier naturalization process) was that the new military government wants to encourage foreign business investment (both from new investors - and improve confidence for further long term investment by existing foreign investors) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aronp1 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Thailand doesn't permit dual nationality. Who told you this? 5555555 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MobileContent Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Just to clarify: the 2008 Nationality Act relaxed the rules for a foreigner married to a Thai woman to allow them to obtain Thai nationality without PR; if you are a foreign man without a Thai wife, you still need 5 years PR. Since the OP has a Thai wife, I would suggest applying for Thai nationality rather than PR, provided his current country of citizenship allows for dual nationality. The 70,000 baht salary is enough. 70k is not enough. All the farangs I have known in Thailand have more then 500k in monthly salaries, a Character witness (mainly owner of of one of the Banking Groups in Thailand or an owner of one of the Thai Industrial groups) and the applicant should pay plenty of taxes every month and over 100 million Baht in Thailand. Giving for charity is always a requirement for Thai citizenship and as more you spend as better your chances are of getting approved. 500k should do the trick but it has to be paid at least 6 months before you applied citizenship. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB2 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Just to clarify: the 2008 Nationality Act relaxed the rules for a foreigner married to a Thai woman to allow them to obtain Thai nationality without PR; if you are a foreign man without a Thai wife, you still need 5 years PR. Since the OP has a Thai wife, I would suggest applying for Thai nationality rather than PR, provided his current country of citizenship allows for dual nationality. The 70,000 baht salary is enough. 70k is not enough. All the farangs I have known in Thailand have more then 500k in monthly salaries, a Character witness (mainly owner of of one of the Banking Groups in Thailand or an owner of one of the Thai Industrial groups) and the applicant should pay plenty of taxes every month and over 100 million Baht in Thailand. Giving for charity is always a requirement for Thai citizenship and as more you spend as better your chances are of getting approved. 500k should do the trick but it has to be paid at least 6 months before you applied citizenship. Yes - Oh what a coincidence... The figures and other details you mentioned above exactly match the feedback I received from a high level contact this week during casual discussions. The gent was polite enough not to laugh in my face when I suggested applying for naturalization based on my own relatively meagre financial means, but added "that even with a top scoring application in accordance with the published rules, a 'charity contribution' of 450K" would be needed to get the ball rolling, and that this should come as no surprise since charity contributions to Thai society are clearly mentioned in the assessment criteria scoring system (though not the amount - presumably the amount of 'charity contribution' also has a scoring system) You have to smile... in the land of smiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post samran Posted January 4, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) Unless you denounce your own citizenship your not likely to get Thai citizenship.Absolute horse poo... Well.... at the risk of going off topic... Not completely - there's sufficient smoke to suspect the need to "denounce your own citizenship" in the latest Thai naturalization requirements online here The naturalization process does require you to produce a letter of intention to relinquish your existing nationality - see wording below:- ... The guidelines for consideration to naturalize foreigners into Thai given by the Interior Minister and approved on October 14, 2009 require the applicant for naturalization into Thai to show a document submitted to the embassy or consulate of the country he/she holds nationality to indicate his/her intention to relinquish his/her current nationality upon approval of naturalization into Thai. ... Further, on you receiving Thai nationality, the Ministry of the Interior will inform your embassy that you have now been issued with Thai nationality as per the paragraph below:- ... Section 6. After the applicant has been naturalized into Thai, in case the country of the applicant has an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the embassy or consulate in Thailand of the Thai naturalization. And if the country of the applicant does not have an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to notify the country of the applicant of the Thai naturalization. ... So you are required to denounce/relinquish you own citizenship as part of the application for Thai citizenship - but do you actually have to go through with it? That is the big question. I am aware that 'letters of Intent' exist in a grey legal area (see link here ) however, if you refuse to play ball, potentially the Ministry of the Interior could also cancel your newly issued nationality since the applicant has not acted in good faith. Dual citizenship for minors up to 20 years old is permitted in Thailand. Dual citizenship for adults is 'unclear' though tolerated. I wonder though what some of this forums Thai legal experts have to say about the above naturalization requirements? It is still horse poo.The intention to renounce is simply a letter of intent. The letter is sent to the embassy, but unless one formally renounces ones original citizenship there is very little thailand can do about it. Formal renounciation isn't a requirement otherwise they wouldnt have issue the citizenship documents in the first place. There is no regulation stating that Thai citizenship will be revoked if the foreign citizenship isn't renounced. Dual citizenship for minors who gained their non Thai citizenship through their birth parent is indeed legal. There is also no issue with it after 20. All the law says is that Thai a child born to a foriegn parent is entitled to renounce Thai citizenship for the one year following their 20th birthday. No penalty if they don't. How do I know this? As a dual Thai australian citizen I've has my thai citizenship status most recently examined in 2013 by the citizenship granting committee at the ministry of interior as part of the process for my wife's granting of Thai citizenship due to being married to a Thai husband. They had no issue with it and my wife's Thai citizenship was subsequently granted. It is important to read the law on the age 20 issue in the context of how the law used to look. Version 2 of the nationality act was explicit that at 20 had to choose or lose Thai citizenship if they didn't. Version 3 of the law, passed in March 1992, dropped the explicit requirement to choose and this has been upheld in versions 4 and 5. Edited January 4, 2016 by samran 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I was under the impression permanent residence was a prerequisite for a citizenship application. I am planning to apply next year. No, I don't think so. If he can, the citezenship would be the cheaper way to go (residency about 190,000 Baht plus 8K to apply). Thailand doesn't permit dual nationality so would he have to give up his original nationality? Anyway, as someone else here has pointed out, he's missed this years dates for application for residency. There is a window of about 3 weeks during Nov/Dec when they accept applications and then the process takes about 18 months. And also it used to be the case that only 100 applicants were accepted per country per year. Not sure if those '100 per country' are simply allocated on a first come first served basis, or whether a 'preferred' 100 applications per country are selected from all applications received during the period of accepting applications... The 100 per nationality rule was introduced in the 50s to curb Chinese immigration because PR was previously easy to obtain and was the only way to stay longer than 3 months. The fee was raised astronomically at the same time and the measures were successful in knocking new Chinese immigration on the head. Today it is still being used to limit Chinese applications for PR as it is the only nationality that hits the quota on a regular basis, although India has also hit on occasions. I don't think it is done on a strictly first come first served basis (perhaps you can use your imagination to think of alternative selection procedures that might apply in Thailand). However, it is not going to affect you, unless you are Chinese or Indian. AFAIK no other nationality has ever hit the quota. Brits and Americans commonly hit 40 pa and other farang nationalities less than that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Having been through both processes, I would strongly urge the OP to consider applying for citizenship, rather than PR, since he is easily qualified. The fees are much less and the documentation required is much less burdensome. The time taken may be about the same but both are unpredictable and you can apply for citizenship any working day of the week. Anyone considering applying for citizenship should start making donations to registered Thai charities, which is required, and keep the receipts (B5,000 a year should be enough but no minimum is specified). Also get yourself in a yellow tabian baan which is another requirement, preferably in Bangkok, as it is the only province that has a dedicated Special Branch unit for processing citizenship applications (some provincial Special Branch offices may refuse to do it or mess it up, although those in places like Phuket or Chonburi where there are many foreigners seem to have improved). . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadychris Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Just to clarify: the 2008 Nationality Act relaxed the rules for a foreigner married to a Thai woman to allow them to obtain Thai nationality without PR; if you are a foreign man without a Thai wife, you still need 5 years PR. Since the OP has a Thai wife, I would suggest applying for Thai nationality rather than PR, provided his current country of citizenship allows for dual nationality. The 70,000 baht salary is enough. 70k is not enough. All the farangs I have known in Thailand have more then 500k in monthly salaries, a Character witness (mainly owner of of one of the Banking Groups in Thailand or an owner of one of the Thai Industrial groups) and the applicant should pay plenty of taxes every month and over 100 million Baht in Thailand. Giving for charity is always a requirement for Thai citizenship and as more you spend as better your chances are of getting approved. 500k should do the trick but it has to be paid at least 6 months before you applied citizenship. Say whaaat ???You must move ONLY in very elite circles if ALL the farangs you know have salaries of more than 500k baht per month - that would equate to more than £120,000 pa! And where on earth do you get the idea that its necessary to have 100M Bht (£2M) in the country or that the character witness has to be the owner of a bank or a leading industrialist? I think people with the kind of wealth and income streams, and who move in the social circles you describe tend to retire to Monte Carlo or the Seychelles, not to Thailand... The only accurate info in your post is that a sole recent donation to charity, made in order to expedite an application will be disregarded. Other than that, it is mostly BS. Edited January 5, 2016 by Shadychris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB2 Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Unless you denounce your own citizenship your not likely to get Thai citizenship.Absolute horse poo... Well.... at the risk of going off topic... Not completely - there's sufficient smoke to suspect the need to "denounce your own citizenship" in the latest Thai naturalization requirements online here The naturalization process does require you to produce a letter of intention to relinquish your existing nationality - see wording below:- ... The guidelines for consideration to naturalize foreigners into Thai given by the Interior Minister and approved on October 14, 2009 require the applicant for naturalization into Thai to show a document submitted to the embassy or consulate of the country he/she holds nationality to indicate his/her intention to relinquish his/her current nationality upon approval of naturalization into Thai. ... Further, on you receiving Thai nationality, the Ministry of the Interior will inform your embassy that you have now been issued with Thai nationality as per the paragraph below:- ... Section 6. After the applicant has been naturalized into Thai, in case the country of the applicant has an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the embassy or consulate in Thailand of the Thai naturalization. And if the country of the applicant does not have an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to notify the country of the applicant of the Thai naturalization. ... So you are required to denounce/relinquish you own citizenship as part of the application for Thai citizenship - but do you actually have to go through with it? That is the big question. I am aware that 'letters of Intent' exist in a grey legal area (see link here ) however, if you refuse to play ball, potentially the Ministry of the Interior could also cancel your newly issued nationality since the applicant has not acted in good faith. Dual citizenship for minors up to 20 years old is permitted in Thailand. Dual citizenship for adults is 'unclear' though tolerated. I wonder though what some of this forums Thai legal experts have to say about the above naturalization requirements? It is still horse poo.The intention to renounce is simply a letter of intent. The letter is sent to the embassy, but unless one formally renounces ones original citizenship there is very little thailand can do about it. Formal renounciation isn't a requirement otherwise they wouldnt have issue the citizenship documents in the first place. There is no regulation stating that Thai citizenship will be revoked if the foreign citizenship isn't renounced. Dual citizenship for minors who gained their non Thai citizenship through their birth parent is indeed legal. There is also no issue with it after 20. All the law says is that Thai a child born to a foriegn parent is entitled to renounce Thai citizenship for the one year following their 20th birthday. No penalty if they don't. How do I know this? As a dual Thai australian citizen I've has my thai citizenship status most recently examined in 2013 by the citizenship granting committee at the ministry of interior as part of the process for my wife's granting of Thai citizenship due to being married to a Thai husband. They had no issue with it and my wife's Thai citizenship was subsequently granted. It is important to read the law on the age 20 issue in the context of how the law used to look. Version 2 of the nationality act was explicit that at 20 had to choose or lose Thai citizenship if they didn't. Version 3 of the law, passed in March 1992, dropped the explicit requirement to choose and this has been upheld in versions 4 and 5. OK - Got it now. That must have been quite a process to go through 'Letters of Intent' (LOI) exist in a very grey legal area, that's for sure - guess that's why they are universally hated by lawyers because of their lack of proper legal status. This being so, It just seamed that to be requested to personally issue a LOI to renounce one's citizenship in accordance with the naturalization requirements but with no intention of ever going through with the content of the LOI right from the start , seamed to me to be miss leading by the applicant, or at least to not be acting in good faith. How very interesting that the loop hole is allowed to exist. Additionally, your own recent Thai citizenship review indicates that there is no intention to enforce those already holding Thai citizenship to renounce any other citizenships they may hold. Which begs the question... Why the hell include a requirement to produce a LOI to renounce one's previous citizenship in the naturalization process and inform the Embassies etc? That bit, I truly don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesthailand Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Which begs the question... Why the hell include a requirement to produce a LOI to renounce one's previous citizenship in the naturalization process and inform the Embassies etc? That bit, I truly don't understand. There seem to be some people in the Interior Ministry that feel that anybody naturalizing as a Thai ought to be forced to give up their existing nationality. The current law doesn't allow them to do this, so they are getting as close as they can. At the time I applied for citizenship, it wasn't yet a requirement to submit the letter of intent, but I was asked by the interviewing committee at the Interior Ministry whether I would be willing to give up my current citizenship "as the law required". I bit my lip and resisted the temptation to argue with them as to the requirements of the current law, and said something to the effect that I would be willing to do so, if the law required it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Well.... at the risk of going off topic... Not completely - there's sufficient smoke to suspect the need to "denounce your own citizenship" in the latest Thai naturalization requirements online here The naturalization process does require you to produce a letter of intention to relinquish your existing nationality - see wording below:- ... The guidelines for consideration to naturalize foreigners into Thai given by the Interior Minister and approved on October 14, 2009 require the applicant for naturalization into Thai to show a document submitted to the embassy or consulate of the country he/she holds nationality to indicate his/her intention to relinquish his/her current nationality upon approval of naturalization into Thai. ... Further, on you receiving Thai nationality, the Ministry of the Interior will inform your embassy that you have now been issued with Thai nationality as per the paragraph below:- ... Section 6. After the applicant has been naturalized into Thai, in case the country of the applicant has an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the embassy or consulate in Thailand of the Thai naturalization. And if the country of the applicant does not have an embassy or consulate in Thailand, the Interior Ministry shall notify the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to notify the country of the applicant of the Thai naturalization. ... So you are required to denounce/relinquish you own citizenship as part of the application for Thai citizenship - but do you actually have to go through with it? That is the big question. I am aware that 'letters of Intent' exist in a grey legal area (see link here ) however, if you refuse to play ball, potentially the Ministry of the Interior could also cancel your newly issued nationality since the applicant has not acted in good faith. Dual citizenship for minors up to 20 years old is permitted in Thailand. Dual citizenship for adults is 'unclear' though tolerated. I wonder though what some of this forums Thai legal experts have to say about the above naturalization requirements? It is still horse poo.The intention to renounce is simply a letter of intent. The letter is sent to the embassy, but unless one formally renounces ones original citizenship there is very little thailand can do about it. Formal renounciation isn't a requirement otherwise they wouldnt have issue the citizenship documents in the first place. There is no regulation stating that Thai citizenship will be revoked if the foreign citizenship isn't renounced. Dual citizenship for minors who gained their non Thai citizenship through their birth parent is indeed legal. There is also no issue with it after 20. All the law says is that Thai a child born to a foriegn parent is entitled to renounce Thai citizenship for the one year following their 20th birthday. No penalty if they don't. How do I know this? As a dual Thai australian citizen I've has my thai citizenship status most recently examined in 2013 by the citizenship granting committee at the ministry of interior as part of the process for my wife's granting of Thai citizenship due to being married to a Thai husband. They had no issue with it and my wife's Thai citizenship was subsequently granted. It is important to read the law on the age 20 issue in the context of how the law used to look. Version 2 of the nationality act was explicit that at 20 had to choose or lose Thai citizenship if they didn't. Version 3 of the law, passed in March 1992, dropped the explicit requirement to choose and this has been upheld in versions 4 and 5. OK - Got it now. That must have been quite a process to go through 'Letters of Intent' (LOI) exist in a very grey legal area, that's for sure - guess that's why they are universally hated by lawyers because of their lack of proper legal status. This being so, It just seamed that to be requested to personally issue a LOI to renounce one's citizenship in accordance with the naturalization requirements but with no intention of ever going through with the content of the LOI right from the start , seamed to me to be miss leading by the applicant, or at least to not be acting in good faith. How very interesting that the loop hole is allowed to exist. Additionally, your own recent Thai citizenship review indicates that there is no intention to enforce those already holding Thai citizenship to renounce any other citizenships they may hold. Which begs the question... Why the hell include a requirement to produce a LOI to renounce one's previous citizenship in the naturalization process and inform the Embassies etc? That bit, I truly don't understand. One can only speculate, but probably an old guard faction futilely standing in the way of what has been pretty steady liberalisation of the rules since 1992. The letter was most likely a face saving measure for them. The letter would have no legal standing in the eyes of most peoples original citizenship. They simply wouldnt care. Only countries with strict one citizenship requirements (eg singapore) would follow up on such a letter. Edited January 7, 2016 by samran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payanak212 Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Does anyone have any current information on the time period from successfully submitting the application for PR and it being granted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Does anyone have any current information on the time period from successfully submitting the application for PR and it being granted? Five years for me and that was an average to good wait in recent times. But this is one of the areas where the military government has actually be making improvements. They have approved a good number of applications for citizenship (and PR) and have taken steps to speed up the process from when it leaves the police, who are actually rather efficient in this area. Nowadays the MoI seems to have been forced to speed up the interview process, which is a bottleneck, and batch up applicants who applied at the same time more or less together and not inexplicably leave some poor sods behind for years and let others through in a year or 18 months. A lot of this seemed to be quite at random in the past. If we go back to a democratic government, I imagine the bureaucrats will slip back into their old ways, which presumably makes them feel very powerful and Kafkaesque. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB2 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Does anyone have any current information on the time period from successfully submitting the application for PR and it being granted? Hi Payanak212, For those who had their PR applications accepted during the December 2015 window, Thai language interviews by the Sub-committee of Immigration took place at Chaeng Wattana BKK last week. I will estimate there were total 70 applicants being interviewed during the 1 week process. Fresh from Dor.Mor. Chaeng Wattana today I received the updated 2016 schedule for processing a successfully submitted PR application (see attached document) Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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