The End Of Organic Farming Might Be Sooner Than We Thought

[GuestHouse]

You do get to wonder whatever else we are being lied about.

There's a fine line between being cautious and letting fear get the better of you. Letting our imaginations run free is more the latter. All companies act in their own best financial interest and this is often seen by detractors as lying by omission. All we need to do is ensure that the necessary legal framework and regulatory oversight is in place so that the public isn't exposed to actual danger.

Just for my own info, what was the alleged Monsanto lie? I like to be as informed as possible when it comes to this company.

Companies acting in their own best financial interest also includes lobbying government to ensure that laws are not put in place that threaten company profits. This lobbying may of course be legal, but in other cases may not be legal at all and may include bribery to circumvent laws that are already in place that are against a company's own best financial interests. By example: http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/faculty/garrett/monsanto.pdf

Which is precisely why public participation, and of civil society, anti-corporate protest and lobbying is essential to keep the balance of control over government and the laws that government make.

[attrayant]

Which is precisely why public participation, and of civil society, anti-corporate protest and lobbying is essential to keep the balance of control over government and the laws that government make.

As long as that public participation isn't borne out of hatred driven by ignorance fueled by fear ("I don't fully understand this technology so I want it outlawed!"), then I have no problem with that.

[GuestHouse]

Which is precisely why public participation, and of civil society, anti-corporate protest and lobbying is essential to keep the balance of control over government and the laws that government make.

As long as that public participation isn't borne out of hatred driven by ignorance fueled by fear ("I don't fully understand this technology so I want it outlawed!"), then I have no problem with that.

Tough it out attrayant, as we have discussed before, you might benefit from expanding your thinking beyond the utility of science and technology into the human sciences around sociology and politics.

Human decisions are made on the basis of human thinking which includes emotional as well as intellectual thinking, that is the way it is and the way it always will be. The utilitarian arguments you fall back on and have their roots in JS Mills have been roundly refuted, though they have on several occasions been adopted as the basis of political decision making by various authoritarian regimes.

Certainly it is not acceptable to leave decisions on the food we grow and eat solely in the hands of government and corporations when these matters have such wide reaching impact on society.

The link I provided above gives a counter argument to your simplistic fear and hate cartoon.

The cycle of corruption between the agrochemical business and governments. There is much to fear from the agrochemical business' lobbying of government and there and plenty of fact based evidence of their activities (see link above).

The Organic movement is not simply about growing or raising food organically, it is a social political movement, you clearly fail to understand this with your insistence on a narrowly defined argument that negates any point of view you can't deal with.

But as has been clearly demonstrated throughout this thread, Organic farming is not about to die soon, organic farming is expanding and the organic movement is also growing nicely.

[attrayant]

Tough it out attrayant, as we have discussed before, you might benefit from expanding your thinking beyond the utility of science and technology into the human sciences around sociology and politics. Human decisions are made on the basis of human thinking which includes emotional as well as intellectual thinking, that is the way it is and the way it always will be.

In other words, people are ignorant and we just have to live with that. Nope, I'm not going to accept that (or "tough it out" as you so eloquently phrase it).

The link I provided above gives a counter argument to your simplistic fear and hate cartoon.

The cycle of corruption between the agrochemical business and governments. There is much to fear from the agrochemical business' lobbying of government and there and plenty of fact based evidence of their activities (see link above).

You either didn't read past the first page or you didn't understand it. What you have provided is an example of the 'fear + ignorance = hate' cartoon, not an argument against it.

But you knew that readers probably wouldn't look any further than the first page, which says "UNITED STATED OF AMERICA v. MONSANTO COMPANY ... CRIMINAL NO..."

Wow that just looks awful if you stop reading there, doesn't it? For those not wanting to read through all 27 pages, here's the summary:

Monsanto detected fraudulent activity by one of its Indonesian consultants and reported the matter to the DOJ. Got that? The company that you love to hate so much did the right thing. Monsanto worked with the DOJ to build a case against the consultant and get him caught & convicted.

Not that this will change your opinion of them. You'll no doubt do dumpster-diving through google in search of some other propaganda to justify your hatred. As long as you can find one bad apple in a company, that means the whole company is rotten, right?

I find your contributions to this and other threads to be shallow and disingenuous in the extreme. I hope people will see this example (that you yourself have so thoughtfully provided) and view your future contributions in light of this.

[farmerjo]

Which is precisely why public participation, and of civil society, anti-corporate protest and lobbying is essential to keep the balance of control over government and the laws that government make.

As long as that public participation isn't borne out of hatred driven by ignorance fueled by fear ("I don't fully understand this technology so I want it outlawed!"), then I have no problem with that.

Tough it out attrayant, as we have discussed before, you might benefit from expanding your thinking beyond the utility of science and technology into the human sciences around sociology and politics.

Human decisions are made on the basis of human thinking which includes emotional as well as intellectual thinking, that is the way it is and the way it always will be. The utilitarian arguments you fall back on and have their roots in JS Mills have been roundly refuted, though they have on several occasions been adopted as the basis of political decision making by various authoritarian regimes.

Certainly it is not acceptable to leave decisions on the food we grow and eat solely in the hands of government and corporations when these matters have such wide reaching impact on society.

The link I provided above gives a counter argument to your simplistic fear and hate cartoon.

The cycle of corruption between the agrochemical business and governments. There is much to fear from the agrochemical business' lobbying of government and there and plenty of fact based evidence of their activities (see link above).

The Organic movement is not simply about growing or raising food organically, it is a social political movement, you clearly fail to understand this with your insistence on a narrowly defined argument that negates any point of view you can't deal with.

But as has been clearly demonstrated throughout this thread, Organic farming is not about to die soon, organic farming is expanding and the organic movement is also growing nicely.

Guesthouse,

Who makes up this Organic movement besides over educated university graduates who could not find a job and turned green.

I'm sure the people in the fields busting their backs aren't driving it.

[attrayant]

It's all driven by Big Organic now. Companies have seen the willingness of consumers to pay big bucks for food because they're laboring under the false belief that it's healthier (it's not) or doesn't use pesticides (it certainly does). In short, fools are surely being parted from their money. Guesthouse doesn't seem to have a problem with companies preying on the consumer's ignorance (just tough it out!).

Just for the record, Whole Foods reported earnings nearly equal to that of Monsanto in 2014. The little farmer may not be doing very well trying to get small organic farms off the ground, but Big Organic Inc. sure is. All they need to do is keep consumers in the dark about the nutritional and safety differences between organic and conventional produce, and profits will continue to roll in.

[GuestHouse]

You do understand how plea bargaining works don't you Attrayant.

Monsanto get caught out paying bribes in Indonesia so they confess in the US to keep their directors out of gaol.had they not payed the bribes in the first place they would not need confess.

Doint the right thing is only because the foreign corrupt practices act (widely suuported by civil society but widel oposed by the business world) holds directors of companies personslly responsible for any member of their organisation 'being caught' paying a bribe to an agent of a foreign government.

[GuestHouse]

Farmerjo, if the worst thing you can say about people in the organic movement is that they are over educated ... You've probably said more about yourslf.

Nevertheless, the organic movement is far broader than people who comitted the sin of getting an education.

And it is growing rather well.

Even Attrayant is starting to fear "Big Organic"

He'll be following his fear/hate model anytime soon.

[farmerjo]

Farmerjo, if the worst thing you can say about people in the organic movement is that they are over educated ... You've probably said more about yourslf.

Nevertheless, the organic movement is far broader than people who comitted the sin of getting an education.

And it is growing rather well.

Even Attrayant is starting to fear "Big Organic"

He'll be following his fear/hate model anytime soon.

Got any names for these organic movements(activists)

[GuestHouse]

Got any names for these organic movements(activists)

Have you tried Google yet. It's quite a good way to find information on almost any topic.

[farmerjo]

Got any names for these organic movements(activists)

Have you tried Google yet. It's quite a good way to find information on almost any topic.

I took your advice and googled social political movements and could not find any names.

This was there.

http://listverse.com/2015/08/05/10-misguided-social-and-political-movements-of-our-time/

[GuestHouse]

Got any names for these organic movements(activists)

Have you tried Google yet. It's quite a good way to find information on almost any topic.

I took your advice and googled social political movements and could not find any names.

This was there.

http://listverse.com/2015/08/05/10-misguided-social-and-political-movements-of-our-time/

You ask me for names of organic movements/activists and then Google "Social Political Movements"

Try Googling "Organic Movement"

Or "Organic Activist"

Seek and you will find.

[farmerjo]

Got any names for these organic movements(activists)

Have you tried Google yet. It's quite a good way to find information on almost any topic.

I took your advice and googled social political movements and could not find any names.

This was there.

http://listverse.com/2015/08/05/10-misguided-social-and-political-movements-of-our-time/

You ask me for names of organic movements/activists and then Google "Social Political Movements"

Try Googling "Organic Movement"

Or "Organic Activist"

Seek and you will find.

Yep , i looked up organic activist and this came up.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/23/time-for-organic-activists-to-stop-spreading-lies/

Still no names.

[IsaanAussie]

Lets talk a little about small holding Thai village farming communities like the one my farm is in and the massive changes of the last 10 years. Active farmer numbers have halved, and aged by ten years. Wages doubled almost overnight. Mechanisation has almost replaced labour based rice farming entirely. Co-operative planting and harvesting has all but disappeared. Debt levels have exploded. Farm gate prices decreased. It seems a bleak picture for the future of all farming in Isaan villages.

[cooked]

Lets talk a little about small holding Thai village farming communities like the one my farm is in and the massive changes of the last 10 years. Active farmer numbers have halved, and aged by ten years. Wages doubled almost overnight. Mechanisation has almost replaced labour based rice farming entirely. Co-operative planting and harvesting has all but disappeared. Debt levels have exploded. Farm gate prices decreased. It seems a bleak picture for the future of all farming in Isaan villages.

I'm afraid I have to agree with that. None of the young people in this village seem to be even remotely interested in working in the hot sun all day. The tendency seems to be towards bigger farms even in Isaan. A local Chinese guy has, by hook or (mainly) by crook taken over at least 150 Rai that I know of in the last three years from people that had got themselves into debt. Some big machines will be appearing soon I am sure (at the moment, irrigation pools and access roads are being constructed). I doubt that big operators will be interested in organic farming when they have invested so much and have so much to lose.

By the way, the same guy has started up a weekly organic vegetables market! The produce looked much to pristine to be organic to me... judging by my experiences in Farangland.

[GuestHouse]

Lets talk a little about small holding Thai village farming communities like the one my farm is in and the massive changes of the last 10 years. Active farmer numbers have halved, and aged by ten years. Wages doubled almost overnight. Mechanisation has almost replaced labour based rice farming entirely. Co-operative planting and harvesting has all but disappeared. Debt levels have exploded. Farm gate prices decreased. It seems a bleak picture for the future of all farming in Isaan villages.

I'm afraid I have to agree with that. None of the young people in this village seem to be even remotely interested in working in the hot sun all day. The tendency seems to be towards bigger farms even in Isaan. A local Chinese guy has, by hook or (mainly) by crook taken over at least 150 Rai that I know of in the last three years from people that had got themselves into debt. Some big machines will be appearing soon I am sure (at the moment, irrigation pools and access roads are being constructed). I doubt that big operators will be interested in organic farming when they have invested so much and have so much to lose.

By the way, the same guy has started up a weekly organic vegetables market! The produce looked much to pristine to be organic to me... judging by my experiences in Farangland.

I have a friend who, while studying at NIDA, started to write his PhD thesis on changes of rural land ownership in Thailand. A few months into his studies he had to change projects when all cooperation over requests for information from the land registry department dried up.

One day interviews and data were available, next day they were not.

You are correct, there has been a massive movement of land ownership, but it has nothing to do with Organic or indeed 'industrial farming' and everything to do with the politics around rice and debt in rural Thailand.

Nevertheless, as you observe, the outcome does impact farming practices.

[Foreverford]

Dr Treelove's post shows that there are alternatives to the toxic overdosing methods and materials used for so long. The Ag Chem companies will have to move towards offering LESS RISKY options in the near future, it's either that or oblivion for them if current awareness grows.

But there will remain the need to make corporate profits and I wonder if the net result will offer any benefit to the smallholding farmer. Hopefully consumer health will benefit and with it society healthcare costs will be reduced. But I doubt the structure of modern agriculture and its supply chain will change much. I suppose the best we can hope for is the gap between conventional agriculture and natural farming produce will close and with it the ridiculous burden of proof and associated certification cost will be lifted from the organic farmer.

Ultimately "independent" testing of marketable produce under a common set of rules would level the playing field. Can't see that being allowed to happen though.

IT IS HAPPENING! And that's what is exciting these days, in the US at least - I know first hand, and I think around the world. . Major ag chemical companies are following the trend and public demand for organic program compatible products, a demand that is huge and cannot be overlooked any more. Organic growing methods are mainstream and not going away, but ever increasing. University IPM programs are growing, and promoting Intelligent Plant Management, considering growing conditions, soil and water management, rather than the old reactionary methods of "got a bug, choose a chemical to kill it". That's why I said the title of this thread is a ridiculous notion. The opposite is happening, through public awareness, laws and regulations that protect the environment and sustainability.

For example, I am currently living and working in Santa Cruz County California where the strawberry industry is huge. In 2006 I attended an organic strawberry production seminar put on by the University of California Cooperative Extension, a UC and County Agricultural Dept collaboration. A lot of the movement toward organic strawberry production is due to new regulations against the use of methyl bromide soil fumigation to control phytophthora root rot. You know Phytophthora as a genus of fungus-like organisms called water molds, common plant pathogens (Irish potato famine of 1840s, avocado root rot, citrus crown rot, sudden oak death). In the organic seminar, methods of crop rotation were discussed that use broccoli and incorporating crop residues from the broccoli crop into the soil, which naturally suppresses phytophthora, reducing the need for harsh chemical treatment. And there is much much more, and new R&D (research and development) of products and methods all the time. This week I am meeting with a compost tea producer who now has a blueberry farm in Watsonville, where he is using strictly organic methods and materials. He sells his actively aerated compost tea (similar to what is called EM, effective micro-organisms in Thailand) to other berry growers for fertigation (irrigation system distributed liquid fertility applications), and his business is booming. Because the market and the money is in the organics, and California's strict pesticide laws are making IPM essential.

In the 1970s I was active in an arborist association in California, and when it was my turn to arrange a speaker for a meeting, I brought in a husband and wife team of biological control experts who were pioneering an IPM project at UC Berkeley. After their talk I was villanized by some of the members whose chemical pesticide spraying business was perceived as challenged by the concept of biological control. I was told that me and my hippie friends should not come back, we were no longer welcome! These were PhD entomologists! Hippie friends? As a contrast and sign of the times, I recently gave a presentation to a Pesticide Applicators Professional Association. The subject was Plant Health Care for Trees and transitioning to less toxic alternatives for pest control, to meet the public demand and ever greater pesticide regulations. My talk was well received, no negative reactions that I know of, and I have gained valuable business associates through this presentation. What a difference 40 years has made, and I've lived to see it!

End of organic farming? I don't think so!

[Foreverford]

Dr Treelove's post shows that there are alternatives to the toxic overdosing methods and materials used for so long. The Ag Chem companies will have to move towards offering LESS RISKY options in the near future, it's either that or oblivion for them if current awareness grows.

But there will remain the need to make corporate profits and I wonder if the net result will offer any benefit to the smallholding farmer. Hopefully consumer health will benefit and with it society healthcare costs will be reduced. But I doubt the structure of modern agriculture and its supply chain will change much. I suppose the best we can hope for is the gap between conventional agriculture and natural farming produce will close and with it the ridiculous burden of proof and associated certification cost will be lifted from the organic farmer.

Ultimately "independent" testing of marketable produce under a common set of rules would level the playing field. Can't see that being allowed to happen though.

IT IS HAPPENING! And that's what is exciting these days, in the US at least - I know first hand, and I think around the world. . Major ag chemical companies are following the trend and public demand for organic program compatible products, a demand that is huge and cannot be overlooked any more. Organic growing methods are mainstream and not going away, but ever increasing. University IPM programs are growing, and promoting Intelligent Plant Management, considering growing conditions, soil and water management, rather than the old reactionary methods of "got a bug, choose a chemical to kill it". That's why I said the title of this thread is a ridiculous notion. The opposite is happening, through public awareness, laws and regulations that protect the environment and sustainability.

For example, I am currently living and working in Santa Cruz County California where the strawberry industry is huge. In 2006 I attended an organic strawberry production seminar put on by the University of California Cooperative Extension, a UC and County Agricultural Dept collaboration. A lot of the movement toward organic strawberry production is due to new regulations against the use of methyl bromide soil fumigation to control phytophthora root rot. You know Phytophthora as a genus of fungus-like organisms called water molds, common plant pathogens (Irish potato famine of 1840s, avocado root rot, citrus crown rot, sudden oak death). In the organic seminar, methods of crop rotation were discussed that use broccoli and incorporating crop residues from the broccoli crop into the soil, which naturally suppresses phytophthora, reducing the need for harsh chemical treatment. And there is much much more, and new R&D (research and development) of products and methods all the time. This week I am meeting with a compost tea producer who now has a blueberry farm in Watsonville, where he is using strictly organic methods and materials. He sells his actively aerated compost tea (similar to what is called EM, effective micro-organisms in Thailand) to other berry growers for fertigation (irrigation system distributed liquid fertility applications), and his business is booming. Because the market and the money is in the organics, and California's strict pesticide laws are making IPM essential.

In the 1970s I was active in an arborist association in California, and when it was my turn to arrange a speaker for a meeting, I brought in a husband and wife team of biological control experts who were pioneering an IPM project at UC Berkeley. After their talk I was villanized by some of the members whose chemical pesticide spraying business was perceived as challenged by the concept of biological control. I was told that me and my hippie friends should not come back, we were no longer welcome! These were PhD entomologists! Hippie friends? As a contrast and sign of the times, I recently gave a presentation to a Pesticide Applicators Professional Association. The subject was Plant Health Care for Trees and transitioning to less toxic alternatives for pest control, to meet the public demand and ever greater pesticide regulations. My talk was well received, no negative reactions that I know of, and I have gained valuable business associates through this presentation. What a difference 40 years has made, and I've lived to see it!

End of organic farming? I don't think so!

Looks as if my last two hours of typing vanished into Thaivisa world of press a button and it is swallowed and not backed up and I failed to back it up so to summarize.......... good on ya Don and Tony for your input, i think what I had written was reinforcing your guy's info.

Bottom line "Organic", the word, on any label must also show what organization certified you to put that word on the label ie: Thai ACT, USDA, CCOF and other national or international laws of standards that satisfy the country and their designated label, no label no organic sweet simple.

Our farm uses the utmost standards of the organic process but we call our products "Chem Free Sustainably Grown" . By law it is all we can do in the labeling criteria.

Buyers should always try to become intimate with their growers (Dr Treelove shows that there are many things outthere that you may not want on your food or in the earth in any or excessive amounts even though allowedin the organic laws of most nations) and farms as no two operations will ever be the same and it is critical that if you want to eat organic, or chem free that you the consumer must take on some of the work to avail yourself to all material available to secure what you feel is the best product available. Ever try to buy "organic" Chinese or Himalayan goji berries??

I always felt the key to growing and succeeding in any farming was to be able to do some form of on-farm retail selling of your product. Now with the internet resources for selling I am seeing things slightly different. Just saw Hom Mali, USDA certified and labeled rice, selling (and I mean selling) for 350 baht a kilo. This 350 baht kilo was a nice blend of different classes of Hom Mali but in USA you can buy white organic Jasmine at very reasonable prices and people are glad and excited to be able to pay the premium of around 10 baht a serving to be able to eat organic from Thailand.

The real bottom line is that a good sustainable farm feeds the entire family throughout the year and has enough excess to be able to barter and sell to assist in hopefully all of the farming operations and buy a pencil or two for school and in good years (more to come as more markets become available) maybe a few extra satang to put in the old sock.

Sorry as the last post that may appear, or is gone forever, (I think had a few jokes and such but........swell okay here was the first joke and their were many references in my original gobbled up post alluding to my hammer but the joke goes something like this.......There was an organic farmer ... nahh ain't got itin me as too too long on the machine here. wait i see there is an "auto save" could the old Post somehow be in anew place in my ForeverFord world???? Many moons since you have heard from me here and so will give it a look and wish me well but good on you Doc Treelove and Issan Aussie for spending plenty many time trying to educate a few good folks that joined this discussion.

Wish me choke dee and know when the moon is full and fire is exploding from the arth it isn't a Naga throwing fireballs just the good old Ford tractor firing on all cylinders at 90% throttle in sixth gear and planting another crop of sunn hemp to flourish and flower with Fords Forever (push the buttomn you idiot before you lose this one no preview presssssssitt!!!!!!!!

[Foreverford]

Dr Treelove's post shows that there are alternatives to the toxic overdosing methods and materials used for so long. The Ag Chem companies will have to move towards offering LESS RISKY options in the near future, it's either that or oblivion for them if current awareness grows.

But there will remain the need to make corporate profits and I wonder if the net result will offer any benefit to the smallholding farmer. Hopefully consumer health will benefit and with it society healthcare costs will be reduced. But I doubt the structure of modern agriculture and its supply chain will change much. I suppose the best we can hope for is the gap between conventional agriculture and natural farming produce will close and with it the ridiculous burden of proof and associated certification cost will be lifted from the organic farmer.

Ultimately "independent" testing of marketable produce under a common set of rules would level the playing field. Can't see that being allowed to happen though.

IT IS HAPPENING! And that's what is exciting these days, in the US at least - I know first hand, and I think around the world. . Major ag chemical companies are following the trend and public demand for organic program compatible products, a demand that is huge and cannot be overlooked any more. Organic growing methods are mainstream and not going away, but ever increasing. University IPM programs are growing, and promoting Intelligent Plant Management, considering growing conditions, soil and water management, rather than the old reactionary methods of "got a bug, choose a chemical to kill it". That's why I said the title of this thread is a ridiculous notion. The opposite is happening, through public awareness, laws and regulations that protect the environment and sustainability.

For example, I am currently living and working in Santa Cruz County California where the strawberry industry is huge. In 2006 I attended an organic strawberry production seminar put on by the University of California Cooperative Extension, a UC and County Agricultural Dept collaboration. A lot of the movement toward organic strawberry production is due to new regulations against the use of methyl bromide soil fumigation to control phytophthora root rot. You know Phytophthora as a genus of fungus-like organisms called water molds, common plant pathogens (Irish potato famine of 1840s, avocado root rot, citrus crown rot, sudden oak death). In the organic seminar, methods of crop rotation were discussed that use broccoli and incorporating crop residues from the broccoli crop into the soil, which naturally suppresses phytophthora, reducing the need for harsh chemical treatment. And there is much much more, and new R&D (research and development) of products and methods all the time. This week I am meeting with a compost tea producer who now has a blueberry farm in Watsonville, where he is using strictly organic methods and materials. He sells his actively aerated compost tea (similar to what is called EM, effective micro-organisms in Thailand) to other berry growers for fertigation (irrigation system distributed liquid fertility applications), and his business is booming. Because the market and the money is in the organics, and California's strict pesticide laws are making IPM essential.

In the 1970s I was active in an arborist association in California, and when it was my turn to arrange a speaker for a meeting, I brought in a husband and wife team of biological control experts who were pioneering an IPM project at UC Berkeley. After their talk I was villanized by some of the members whose chemical pesticide spraying business was perceived as challenged by the concept of biological control. I was told that me and my hippie friends should not come back, we were no longer welcome! These were PhD entomologists! Hippie friends? As a contrast and sign of the times, I recently gave a presentation to a Pesticide Applicators Professional Association. The subject was Plant Health Care for Trees and transitioning to less toxic alternatives for pest control, to meet the public demand and ever greater pesticide regulations. My talk was well received, no negative reactions that I know of, and I have gained valuable business associates through this presentation. What a difference 40 years has made, and I've lived to see it!

End of organic farming? I don't think so!

Looks as if my last two hours of typing vanished into Thaivisa world of press a button and it is swallowed and not backed up and I failed to back it up so to summarize.......... good on ya Don and Tony for your input, i think what I had written was reinforcing your guy's info.

Bottom line "Organic", the word, on any label must also show what organization certified you to put that word on the label ie: Thai ACT, USDA, CCOF and other national or international laws of standards that satisfy the country and their designated label, no label no organic sweet simple.

Our farm uses the utmost standards of the organic process but we call our products "Chem Free Sustainably Grown" . By law it is all we can do in the labeling criteria.

Buyers should always try to become intimate with their growers (Dr Treelove shows that there are many things outthere that you may not want on your food or in the earth in any or excessive amounts even though allowedin the organic laws of most nations) and farms as no two operations will ever be the same and it is critical that if you want to eat organic, or chem free that you the consumer must take on some of the work to avail yourself to all material available to secure what you feel is the best product available. Ever try to buy "organic" Chinese or Himalayan goji berries??

I always felt the key to growing and succeeding in any farming was to be able to do some form of on-farm retail selling of your product. Now with the internet resources for selling I am seeing things slightly different. Just saw Hom Mali, USDA certified and labeled rice, selling (and I mean selling) for 350 baht a kilo. This 350 baht kilo was a nice blend of different classes of Hom Mali but in USA you can buy white organic Jasmine at very reasonable prices and people are glad and excited to be able to pay the premium of around 10 baht a serving to be able to eat organic from Thailand.

The real bottom line is that a good sustainable farm feeds the entire family throughout the year and has enough excess to be able to barter and sell to assist in hopefully all of the farming operations and buy a pencil or two for school and in good years (more to come as more markets become available) maybe a few extra satang to put in the old sock.

Sorry as the last post that may appear, or is gone forever, (I think had a few jokes and such but........swell okay here was the first joke and their were many references in my original gobbled up post alluding to my hammer but the joke goes something like this.......There was an organic farmer ... nahh ain't got itin me as too too long on the machine here. wait i see there is an "auto save" could the old Post somehow be in anew place in my ForeverFord world???? Many moons since you have heard from me here and so will give it a look and wish me well but good on you Doc Treelove and Issan Aussie for spending plenty many time trying to educate a few good folks that joined this discussion.

Wish me choke dee and know when the moon is full and fire is exploding from the arth it isn't a Naga throwing fireballs just the good old Ford tractor firing on all cylinders at 90% throttle in sixth gear and planting another crop of sunn hemp to flourish and flower with Fords Forever (push the buttomn you idiot before you lose this one no preview presssssssitt!!!!!!!!

Okay I tried to find my oiginal 2+ hour post and lost it to too much going on as while scrolling through here to look at who was involved in the remainder of the other half of this (as I jumped into it in the middle) Thaivisa kept shooting me off to different places as quite sensitive to a scrolling troll. So it appears if I knew waht I was doing earlier I could have gotten to "auto saved" and it would have been my savior. the damn thing asked me to edit it and when I did it said icouldn't with a big red notice and when i went back boo hoo gone good-by so same on y'all and a single link this tijme

see ya at Impact Arena on Feb 29th with these guys playing my theme song for 2016

peace love exodus and FordsForeverrrr

[Foreverford]

organic farming in California is growing exponentially, in any of the larger cities you can eat 100% organically at very reasonable, seasonable (the key to low cost) prices and many towns cities and communities are running at least seasonal direct "farmer markets" Many are all year affairs 52 weeks a year come shine or rain.

Never to worry Thailand and the world will follow there is no way it can't as the thing most precious to any and all is the food we put into our bodies and to think that the market for that is going to decline for quality products doesn't take any kind of marketing genius to understand. Here in Thailand as in many places those geniuses end up having the highest profit margins in the entire chain as they usually always have a profit. Not the situation to the farmer but such is the game, but more markets will bring more options. Far from finished just fledgeing faithfully for the future to future farmers flailing the fandango following their Fords Forever

[kickstart]

Meanwhile in Thailand, about 2 months ago Farmer Jo had some of his soil analysed by a lab ,the results come back ,soil short/lacking in N P K ,and just about all the trace elements .

Last Isann farmers meeting the host farmers gave an outline of they enterprises ,they said they sent a soil sample to the usa for analysing ,results come back ,same as Farmerjo's short on everything .

Some years ago the DPO ,the milk producing arm of the Thai Denmark milk company ,sampled the soil ,on dairy farms nationwide ,and again ,same as above .soil shot of everything.

As IA said ,no one is taking up farming as occupation,farms are getting bigger ,management using chemical fertilizers and sprays only ,the soil will say enough is enough ,yields drop ,big companies not making a profit ,will abandon the land,small farmers will leave the land ,emigrate to the city's ,causing problems there, Thailand will become an importer of food .May be the script of a Hollywood film ,or in the future a near truth ,who knows .

Organic farming in Thailand, as we know it has a long way to go ,never will be popular ,but if the farmers could be educated into things like green manuring , that would be a start, using less sprays.

Education will have to play a big part ,doing it the Thai way ,the above posts about organic farming in farangland, can not see it working in Thailand .

[IsaanAussie]

I disagree about foreign organic farming principles not working in Thailand. The objective is the same globally, surely. Healthy soil. Feed the soil and let it feed the crops. It appears to me that we need to go back to that first step rather than analysing what nutrient requirements the crop needs and just providing those.

What has governed farm profits farms is the balance between fertiliser expenditure and crop yields. Not much thought, if any, given to future soil condition. In years of poor farm gate prices, costs must be cut to maintain profits. It was no surprise that rice prices would be low this season, yet most in my area continued to spend as if things were "normal".

Regardless of farming methods used, future sustainability means reducing external costs. To me organic methods provide a way of doing just that. Perhaps the only viable way other than large scale "factory farming". Mono-cropping a small holding simply will not work. The prices of inputs are too well regulated and farm gate prices too low. Waste nothing, use everything, buy as little as possible.

[farmerjo]

Thailand,unlike western countries i would think tax deductions don't play a part to small farmers here or not easy to obtain for small holdings.

At the slightest hint of getting contract labour in to help and we all know your profit is heavily reduced here in all types of farming.

It's also got to the stage where to buy manure is more expensive than ever,even more than chemical fertilizers..

Being an ex fertilizer spreading contractor in a western country i agree it's the first thing deducted from the budget,but that's for nitrogen and phosphate for pasture spreading normally to boosts yields to above average.The cycle for soil admendments stays in the budget.

The days of spreading seed and adding water to grow a crop are well gone.

If your fortunate enough to have a natural good PH you may have a few good years ahead otherwise a lot of hours of hard work.

[kickstart]

I disagree about foreign organic farming principles not working in Thailand. The objective is the same globally, surely. Healthy soil. Feed the soil and let it feed the crops. It appears to me that we need to go back to that first step rather than analysing what nutrient requirements the crop needs and just providing those.

What has governed farm profits farms is the balance between fertiliser expenditure and crop yields. Not much thought, if any, given to future soil condition. In years of poor farm gate prices, costs must be cut to maintain profits. It was no surprise that rice prices would be low this season, yet most in my area continued to spend as if things were "normal".

Regardless of farming methods used, future sustainability means reducing external costs. To me organic methods provide a way of doing just that. Perhaps the only viable way other than large scale "factory farming". Mono-cropping a small holding simply will not work. The prices of inputs are too well regulated and farm gate prices too low. Waste nothing, use everything, buy as little as possible.

What you say is correct ,I think the problem is Thailand is the banks, BAAC ,and the Government savings bank ,both seem to hand out money to farmers, with out thinking will we ever get it back, my area is the same as yours, farmers are just spending ,ever seen/heard of a farmer preparing a budget for the bank ,has a bank manager , ever studied economics .

Something you wrote ,reminds me of an a guy who was our farm fitter many years ago ,when I was working on a farm ,the land was sandy and took some looking after especially in a very dry year , he use to say "Feed the land ,and the land will feed you ". this was 30 years ago ,I think it is still relevant to day ,maybe more so .Organic farming will play a big part in it .and some form of crop rotation ,all this mono-culture ,can not go on , education is the key. especially here in Thailand.

[Allgeier]

We have here a organic Farmer who sell he's product on a market? And market it's in my eys the local market on the countryside. Not some high price market in Bangkok.

The Organic Produkt should not more cost then commercial Produkt. Also the "poor" or low income labour have the right to buy some healthy and clean food.

[IsaanAussie]

We have here a organic Farmer who sell he's product on a market? And market it's in my eys the local market on the countryside. Not some high price market in Bangkok.

The Organic Produkt should not more cost then commercial Produkt. Also the "poor" or low income labour have the right to buy some healthy and clean food.

Of course there are organic farms here. They are usually operated by the same low income people you describe as having the right to healthy food. This topic is discussing the ability of those farmers to make a living. Be a product grown with natural inputs or chemical, it becomes commercial when you try to sell it at a price that the consumer is prepared to pay. That price my friend is dictated by the consumers ability and willingness to pay. So let me ask you, why wouldn't an organic farmer sell his product to the most profitable market he can?

[Allgeier]

I not talking about Thaipeople who run a Organicfarm. Who from the member here run a Organic farm?

If i am a Organicfarmer in our small Thaivillage. There will be the first Question where to sell my Produkt? And how many from the small Farmer have its own Pick Up? To bring the Produkt to the next town.

And in this Town. The Customer are ready to pay more for Organic than for commercial? NO. Not on the countryside.

[IsaanAussie]

I would invite you read through the topics across this forum in order to make a list of those members with some interest in organics. You will find many.

In my village there are several pickup owners who provide transport for people and goods, if you need a lift I am sure you will find one for a few baht. I used minibuses to transport pork to Bangkok over 500kms away.

Perhaps you should spend some time researching the demographics of your area's markets. I did so locally and found that there are informed people who will buy organic produce if available. You just have to find them.

[khwaibah]

I can show you dozens of organic farms, including my wife in the Surin/Bururam provinces along with the Green markets that the products are sold in. All you have to do is get out of the cities and look.

[farmerjo]

I can show you dozens of organic farms, including my wife in the Surin/Bururam provinces along with the Green markets that the products are sold in. All you have to do is get out of the cities and look.

Nice to hear,how does your wife find the workload for organic.