Something Strange with electrics on my bike!

[menzies233]

I didn't want to put this in the biking forum and it probably doesn't fit in the electrical forum, so I thought I would post here and see if anyone has any ideas (Crossy?)

My bike is fitted with a coupling direct to the battery to allow a quick connect for a CTEK 0.8Amp. battery tender which I generally leave connected while the bike is standing.

My son complained that he got a shock when he touched the brake lever - I just laughed thinking it might be static. We tried a few more times and I did get what felt like a mild "BUZZ"

I got my multimeter and checked for DC, nothing at all, then checked for AC, to my surprise I had readings of between 137Volts and about 60 Volts on the brake lever (probe to the lever - other probe in my hand standing with boots on on concrete)

I switched the meter to Frequency and it is 50 Hz. which seems likely to be mains.

I also have a 12V outlet on the bars for charging/power out, this is direct from the battery via a fuse. when I measure here from live to ground I get 13V DC, but I also get a 3.75Volt AC superimposed.

It is something to do with the charger as it stops when I unplug the charger. Everything else seems fine, just wondering if anyone had any idea what is causing it?

Really strange. If you measure anywhere that is on the earth side of the bike, frame, bare clutch cable etc. there is this medium to high voltage AC.

If you grab the brake lever you cannot really notice it, it is sort of when you brush against it that you get the shock.

[lostinisaan]

Your charger is causing it.

[menzies233]

Your charger is causing it.

I suspected that, but cannot understand why there is 60-130V AC on the frame side of the bike and 3.7V AC on the positive side, it is a bit strange. The charger seems to be working, it does not behave the same on my car or on my other motorbike.

[lostinisaan]

Your charger is causing it.

I suspected that, but cannot understand why there is 60-130V AC on the frame side of the bike and 3.7V AC on the positive side, it is a bit strange. The charger seems to be working, it does not behave the same on my car or on my other motorbike.

Please try and put the Minus cable on the frame. And check the Minus cable from the battery to the frame as well.

Then let somebody you dislike figure it out if it's gone. Good luck.

[Gsxrnz]

Is the 12vDC outlet on the handlebars connected directly to the battery terminals or is it switched through the ignition.

It's possible that the earthing of this is somehow carrying a current from the battery charger setup when connected.

Just a thought - disconnect the 12vDC outlet and see if the situation changes.

[menzies233]

Is the 12vDC outlet on the handlebars connected directly to the battery terminals or is it switched through the ignition.

It's possible that the earthing of this is somehow carrying a current from the battery charger setup when connected.

Just a thought - disconnect the 12vDC outlet and see if the situation changes.

Yes the 12V outlet is direct to the battery via an inline fuse. I pulled the fuse and disconnected it but the AC voltage is still there. I sent an e mail to CTEK to see if they know what it might be. I am just worried that it could damage something on the bike or possibly turn nasty with a high current. Nice deterrent though for theft! Sit on the bike, grab the bars and get electrocuted.

[VocalNeal]

What you have is technically called AC ripple.

Is the "other" bike parked close by? And the car? Which ironically is not grounded! Are both bikes on the centre stand? Concrete is continuous? Where do you live? Is it very dry or rocky there? Are all the batteries about the same vintage?

Nothing to do with anything but I have a small switchable DC power supply and I just measure 2.5VAC both + and - to me and I'm sitting on a chair with plastic wheels on a wooden floor!

Edited January 7, 2016 by VocalNeal

[menzies233]

What you have is technically called AC ripple.

Is the "other" bike parked close by? And the car? Which ironically is not grounded! Are both bikes on the centre stand? Concrete is continuous? Where do you live? Is it very dry or rocky there? Are all the batteries about the same vintage?

Nothing to do with anything but I have a small switchable DC power supply and I just measure 2.5VAC both + and - to me and I'm sitting on a chair with plastic wheels on a wooden floor!

I never had AC Ripple from this charger before. Both bikes are parked within 2 metres of each other, the car is maybe 3 metres. None of the bikes have centre stands, they are both on sidestands. Yes, the land here is extremely dry, but has deep grounding rods into the ground - more than 2 metres - however the power supply to the CTEK is only 2 pin, no earth. Not sure what you mean about the concrete being "Continuous" It is a tile floor - ceramic, 144 square metres. Bike batteries are pretty new, as is the car battery, nothing older than two years.

Edited January 7, 2016 by menzies233

[VocalNeal]

We are on the same page. Just a thought but a lot of bike electrical problems are attributable to a poor connection between the battery negative cable and the frame because of either a loose connection of corrosion, Might be worth having a look or at least undo it and re tighten it. As the 12v negative of the charger is obviously not grounded. Doesn't explain the car though:-)

Edited January 7, 2016 by VocalNeal

[menzies233]

We are on the same page. Just a thought but a lot of bike electrical problems are attributable to a poor connection between the battery negative cable and the frame because of either a loose connection of corrosion, Might be worth having a look or at least undo it and re tighten it. As the 12v negative of the charger is obviously not grounded. Doesn't explain the car though:-)

It is definitely something strange with the charger, I do not understand why the AC ripple is on the negative and not on the positive too? 3.7V ripple on the 12 V, up to 130V on the negative - maybe see what CTEK has to say if they bother to reply. As far as cables and connections, I have been through this bike from top to bottom, all connections are good, no corrosion, most connectors have been gone over with contact cleaner. This is just an AC voltage everywhere you would expect to find ground.

[menzies233]

OK, I did some more checking with my meter and am more confused than when I started. Refitted the battery leads after cleaning with contact cleaner, nice and tight - this is the results with the charger running.

AC Voltages measured:

Live - Ground (across battery terminals) 0V.

Negative terminal to the frame, 0V.

Positive terminal to frame 0V.

Positive battery terminal, negative lead of the meter held in my hand- 33V.

Negative terminal of battery, other lead held in my hand - 33V

One lead to any part of the frame, the other lead in my hand - 33V.

Today it is not strong enough to shock and is very consistent at 33V,

[AllanB]

Just a thought, have you tried putting a wire from the charger's casing to the earth in your house, that is what they did with my microwave which also had a two pin plug? When I first plugged in the microwave I got a mild shock when I touched the door to use it, after the earth wire mod it was okay.

Some appliances are designed to have an earth in the real world and get fitted with a two pin plug in Thailand.

PS. I am no electrician.......

[papa al]

Do you get the same effect on both bikes?

Do read the same effect with another person?

Do you have a heart pacemaker?

[menzies233]

Just a thought, have you tried putting a wire from the charger's casing to the earth in your house, that is what they did with my microwave which also had a two pin plug? When I first plugged in the microwave I got a mild shock when I touched the door to use it, after the earth wire mod it was okay.

Some appliances are designed to have an earth in the real world and get fitted with a two pin plug in Thailand.

PS. I am no electrician.......

I understand where you are coming from as I have had shocks from casings of PC's etc. Unfortunately, the outer casing of the CTEK charger is made from plastic, there is no option for an Earth. I e mailed CTEK support three days ago and they still have not bothered to even reply.

I hooked it up to my kid's MSX today and got the same 33V AC reading, but again, it was not enough to feel any shocks.

I am not sure what the pulse cycle is for these chargers, but apparently when the battery gets to the 95-100% full level, the charger goes into "pulse" mode, maybe this is what is getting picked up? Who knows.

[menzies233]

Do you get the same effect on both bikes?

Do read the same effect with another person?

Do you have a heart pacemaker?

I am seeing the same effect on both bikes now.

Yes, we get the same effect with two different people, my son feels it a lot worse than me, he gets a real jolt from it at times.

No, I don't have a pacemaker.

[AllanB]

Just looked at the BS promo video (Aston Martin and Porsche), it is purely a two wire AC.....bought something similar for my boat and every time I returned to find it tripped out with some or other light showing and my battery flatter. Threw it in the bin and bought a low tech cheapo, plus a little £10 solar panel, end of problem. Now I have another boat with a built in system.

I think it is time to ditch it and go solar. Expensive isn't always best.

[Crossy]

Nothing mysterious going on here.

It's almost certainly leakage through the charger's mains filter, a lot of technology has these.

If the charger has a 3-pin plug ensure it's correctly grounded, if not try reversing the plug in the outlet.

The shock isn't hazardous apart from being annoying, if it upsets you ground the frame of the bike to a short rod in the flower bed (don't forget to remove the wire before riding off) or connect the rod to the negative lead of the charger.

[AllanB]

Nothing mysterious going on here.

It's almost certainly leakage through the charger's mains filter, a lot of technology has these.

If the charger has a 3-pin plug ensure it's correctly grounded, if not try reversing the plug in the outlet.

The shock isn't hazardous apart from being annoying, if it upsets you ground the frame of the bike to a short rod in the flower bed (don't forget to remove the wire before riding off) or connect the rod to the negative lead of the charger.

137volt is most definitely hazardous, chuck it in the bin.

[Dellboy218]

You should obviously not get any ripple through A CTEK/Optimate or any other dedicated sealed lead acid battery charger. It is the high ripple on standard chargers that help to damage sealed batteries. Of course there is no indication of what current is available with the ripple you have. 137 is not that odd a value, If your nuetral is not earthed or on a very long run from an earthing point then measure either side to earth and see what you get. Where I work we do not have a live and earthed nuetral and that is in the same area as I would expect to see when measured to earth. I would agree with Crossy except I would suggest a capacitor has either gone leaky or open (perhaps). Either way fix it or dump it.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Dellboy218

[papa al]

Nothing mysterious going on here.

It's almost certainly leakage through the charger's mains filter, a lot of technology has these.

If the charger has a 3-pin plug ensure it's correctly grounded, if not try reversing the plug in the outlet.

The shock isn't hazardous apart from being annoying, if it upsets you ground the frame of the bike to a short rod in the flower bed (don't forget to remove the wire before riding off) or connect the rod to the negative lead of the charger.

137volt is most definitely hazardous, chuck it in the bin.

Even 10,000 volts with low amperage is benign.

[menzies233]

Well, I got an E mail from CTEK last night - seems like this is "Normal"

​

They said that the shock effect was due to current leakage and whilst being unpleasant was within tolerances and not at all dangerous! so looks like you are correct Crossy! Cheers, I must admit I was a bit surprised though. Glad there is nothing wrong with the charger after all.

Edited January 13, 2016 by menzies233

[Crossy]

Nothing mysterious going on here.

It's almost certainly leakage through the charger's mains filter, a lot of technology has these.

If the charger has a 3-pin plug ensure it's correctly grounded, if not try reversing the plug in the outlet.

The shock isn't hazardous apart from being annoying, if it upsets you ground the frame of the bike to a short rod in the flower bed (don't forget to remove the wire before riding off) or connect the rod to the negative lead of the charger.

137volt is most definitely hazardous, chuck it in the bin.

At significantly less than 1mA via the mains filter? Nah, it will make you jump but nothing else.

[VocalNeal]

Menzies,

Just had a thought. Put an electric fence around your house and connect it to the brake lever?

Edited January 14, 2016 by VocalNeal

[papa al]

we usta grab the cattle electric fence as kids

[menzies233]

Menzies,

Just had a thought. Put an electric fence around your house and connect it to the brake lever?

I want to find a way to harness the power to electrocute the bloody cats that jump up on the vinyl seat and use it to sharpen their damned claws!