2016 Toyota Fortuner

[Nordlys]

Does anyone know if the new Fortuner still runs on diesel (2.8V 4WD) or do they only come with petrol (benzine) engine? It's not clear from Toyota Thailand website. I have a 2005 Fortuner with an air scoop on its hood for turbo intercooler that came only with the diesel version and that seems to be gone from all new Fortuners.

And does the price of new Fortuner on Toyota Thailand website already reflect the new excise tax rate or am I to anticipate the price go up? And what tax rate is applicable for both 2.2L and 2.8L (I understand it depends on carbon emission rather than displacement)?

[JoeW]

2.8 & 2.4 are both diesel engines.

The 2.7 is a gasoline engine.

I would expect the TMT website already reflects the new prices, but not quite sure.

[IMHO]

What Joe said.

And yes, the website shows 2016 prices, but it's rumored the Pajero Sport and Fortuner will see a further price rise sometime this year.

[Jitar]

The specification page on Toyota Thailand web page note the Fuel type for each model.

THe web site prices look right for 2016. There was some discussion on another thread about the top Fortuner price (1.63M) not increasing much for 2016 because it is undercut by the PJS and outclassed by the more expensive Everest. Sorry cant recall the thread title.

I do remember someone recently reposting a chart showing the old and new tax rates in the following tread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/886888-new-car-purchase-situation/page-3

[mogandave]

The hood scoop is mostly cosmetic.

I thought the old 2.7 was a gas-burner, no?

[fredob43]

The hood scoop is mostly cosmetic.

I thought the old 2.7 was a gas-burner, no?

Hood scoop is there to feed air into the intercooler, so not cosmetic.

2.7 is petrol. By the way it's bloody slow compared to the 3lt Diesel also thirsty.

Most peeps have brought them so they can change to Gas. Why I don't know but TIT.

[ChesneyHawkes]

What Joe said.

And yes, the website shows 2016 prices, but it's rumored the Pajero Sport and Fortuner will see a further price rise sometime this year.

Dealer added 30k to the price of the top spec whenI asked them last week.

[mogandave]

The hood scoop is mostly cosmetic.

I thought the old 2.7 was a gas-burner, no?

Hood scoop is there to feed air into the intercooler, so not cosmetic.

2.7 is petrol. By the way it's bloody slow compared to the 3lt Diesel also thirsty.

Most peeps have brought them so they can change to Gas. Why I don't know but TIT.

I said mostly cosmetic.

By gas-burner I meant "petrol" not LP/CNG

[fredob43]

The hood scoop is mostly cosmetic.

I thought the old 2.7 was a gas-burner, no?

Hood scoop is there to feed air into the intercooler, so not cosmetic.

2.7 is petrol. By the way it's bloody slow compared to the 3lt Diesel also thirsty.

Most peeps have brought them so they can change to Gas. Why I don't know but TIT.

I said mostly cosmetic.

By gas-burner I meant "petrol" not LP/CNG

Don't want to get into an argument about Cosmetic. But if you look under the Bonnet/Hood of a Toyota Tuna/Vigo that has a scoop you will find that once it down the rubber set up on the underside of the scoop totally covers the intercooler all the air going in goes through the intercooler. So nothing cosmetic about it at all.

Sorry about the Gas bit being English we refer to it as Petrol. Gas is what you cook with+++.

[IMHO]

There is a little confusion in the thread

There is no 2.2L option - that's a Ford/Mazda engine

The MY15 Fortuner is available with 3 engine choices: 2.4L diesel, 2.7L gasoline, or 2.8L diesel.

There is also no hood scoop anymore - the intercooler has now been moved to the front bumper. The fact that your last one had a hood scoop indicates that it was the old 3.0L diesel, in which case you'd probably want the new 2.8L diesel version to give you the performance you remember.

The 2.4L makes more torque than the 3.0L on paper, but it's over such a narrow RPM range that the 3.0L was still a better engine to drive.

[IMHO]

On the subject of tax rates, all new Fortuner variants are taxed at the 25% rate - i.e. all are claimed to emit < 200g/KM CO2.

What magic they have used to achieve this feat, I don't know.

Toyota Thailand have officially self-assessed the Fortuner 2.8L V 6AT 4x4 as: 191g/KM CO2, and 7.2L / 100KM FE.

http://car.go.th/new/compareCar?TranId=34c1723b03fc4996aa01c82a452ea3bb

But Toyota Australia self-assesed the same basic car as: 228g/KM and 8.6L/100KM FE.

https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/ (sorry no direct link available, you'll need to search).

As I understand it, both countries use similar test cycles. Obviously not as similar as I thought?

That said though, here's some numbers from similar cars:

Ford Everest Titanium 3.2L 6AT AWD:

Thailand: 233g/KM, 8.8L / 100KM

Australia: 224g/KM, 8.5L / 100KM

Mitsubishi Pajero Sport 2.4L 8AT 4x4:

Thailand: 199g/KM, 7.5L / 100KM

Australia: 212g/KM, 8.0L / 100KM

In the case of the Everest though, the Australian version makes slightly less HP and uses AdBlue to reduce emissions.

Perhaps someone with more insight than me can explain this differences?

[IMHO]

Any ex VW engineers here?

[ChesneyHawkes]

On the subject of tax rates, all new Fortuner variants are taxed at the 25% rate - i.e. all are claimed to emit < 200g/KM CO2.

What magic they have used to achieve this feat, I don't know.

Toyota Thailand have officially self-assessed the Fortuner 2.8L V 6AT 4x4 as: 191g/KM CO2, and 7.2L / 100KM FE.

http://car.go.th/new/compareCar?TranId=34c1723b03fc4996aa01c82a452ea3bb

But Toyota Australia self-assesed the same basic car as: 228g/KM and 8.6L/100KM FE.

https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/ (sorry no direct link available, you'll need to search).

As I understand it, both countries use similar test cycles. Obviously not as similar as I thought?

That said though, here's some numbers from similar cars:

Ford Everest Titanium 3.2L 6AT AWD:

Thailand: 233g/KM, 8.8L / 100KM

Australia: 224g/KM, 8.5L / 100KM

Mitsubishi Pajero Sport 2.4L 8AT 4x4:

Thailand: 199g/KM, 7.5L / 100KM

Australia: 212g/KM, 8.0L / 100KM

In the case of the Everest though, the Australian version makes slightly less HP and uses AdBlue to reduce emissions.

Perhaps someone with more insight than me can explain this differences?

Toyota's figures have looked like a fudge in all the reviews I've read. They've all mentioned the fuel economy doesn't get anywhere near the official results. I can only assume they've doing a VW and the system detects when it's being assessed for emissions.

Funnily enough this doesn't just happen with cars, Samsung does a similar thing with phones (actually the opposite, but still inflating their scores to look better). When a performance test is run on the phone, it can detect this and allows the processors to run and full speed. When in normal use, performance is usually throttled to save battery power.

Overall the differences between Thailand and Australia don't seem that drastic if you take into consideration the following:

* the quality of the diesel being different in each country.

* Thai labs probably only run the test once, whereas Australian labs probably run the test multiple times and get an average

* The EV uses ad blue http://www.shell.com.au/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/adblue.html for anyone wanting a quick explanation of what it is.

[IMHO]

Toyota's figures have looked like a fudge in all the reviews I've read. They've all mentioned the fuel economy doesn't get anywhere near the official results. I can only assume they've doing a VW and the system detects when it's being assessed for emissions.

And let's not forget that those reviews are from Australia - i.e. citing a big difference between real-world and the Australian claimed numbers - which are around 16% worse than the Thai claimed numbers.

[IMHO]

OK, let's look at some cars that aren't as likely to cross the threshold

Camry 2.5L 6AT

Thailand: 188g/KM, 8.0L / 100KM

Australia: 183g/KM, 7.8L / 100KM

Hilux 2.4L 6MT 4x4:

Thailand: 189g/KM, 7.2L / 100KM

Australia: 191g/KM, 7.3L / 100KM

Hilux 2.8L 6MT 4x4:

Thailand: 195g/KM, 7.4L / 100KM

Australia: 201g/KM, 7.6L / 100KM

[Jitar]

Toyota Thailand have officially self-assessed the Fortuner 2.8L V 6AT 4x4 as: 191g/KM CO2, and 7.2L / 100KM FE.

http://car.go.th/new/compareCar?TranId=34c1723b03fc4996aa01c82a452ea3bb

But Toyota Australia self-assesed the same basic car as: 228g/KM and 8.6L/100KM FE.

https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/ (sorry no direct link available, you'll need to search).

Wonder how long self assessments will continue in a post Diesel-gate world?

[mogandave]

The hood scoop is mostly cosmetic.

I thought the old 2.7 was a gas-burner, no?

Hood scoop is there to feed air into the intercooler, so not cosmetic.

2.7 is petrol. By the way it's bloody slow compared to the 3lt Diesel also thirsty.

Most peeps have brought them so they can change to Gas. Why I don't know but TIT.

I said mostly cosmetic.

By gas-burner I meant "petrol" not LP/CNG

Don't want to get into an argument about Cosmetic. But if you look under the Bonnet/Hood of a Toyota Tuna/Vigo that has a scoop you will find that once it down the rubber set up on the underside of the scoop totally covers the intercooler all the air going in goes through the intercooler. So nothing cosmetic about it at all.

Sorry about the Gas bit being English we refer to it as Petrol. Gas is what you cook with+++.

Can we at least argue about mostly?

[Jitar]

Toyota Thailand have officially self-assessed the Fortuner 2.8L V 6AT 4x4 as: 191g/KM CO2, and 7.2L / 100KM FE.

http://car.go.th/new/compareCar?TranId=34c1723b03fc4996aa01c82a452ea3bb

Interesting how few actual test results are noted on this link.

I wonder what process the car makers go through to convince the Thai Government of the CO2 => tax payable considering there's more than a few shillings at stake here.

[IMHO]

Toyota Thailand have officially self-assessed the Fortuner 2.8L V 6AT 4x4 as: 191g/KM CO2, and 7.2L / 100KM FE.

http://car.go.th/new/compareCar?TranId=34c1723b03fc4996aa01c82a452ea3bb

Interesting how few actual test results are noted on this link.

I wonder what process the car makers go through to convince the Thai Government of the CO2 => tax payable considering there's more than a few shillings at stake here.

The Govt has the luxury of time - they can look at it all more seriously any time they want, and ask for back taxes any time they want too. No need for them to get all serious about it, yet

[sebastion]

Maybe the difference (Aus v Thai) in numbers comes down to the quality of fuels.

[Nordlys]

Thanks all for all the inputs, especially IMHO for digging out all the specifics. So can I conclude the price on TMT website as based on new 25% excise tax rate?

I bought my Fortuner new 11 years ago. It was then a top model (3.0L diesel turbo intercooler full time 4X4 with traction/differential control) and cost me about 1.26 million Baht if my memory serves right. It didn't have 6 air bags (only two front), cruise control, touch-screen navigation system, back camera (but sensors) and many other features that comes with the 2016 Fortuner but I'm struggling to understand almost 400,000 Baht price hike in 10 years (despite the tax hike, about 30% up in price). And however nice those new features are,1.62 million Baht for a pick up variant. That's when domestic auto sales is on downward trend for four years in row. Believe the excise tax of the Fortuner when I bought it was 20%. I wonder if there is any hidden tax included in the new Fortuner price?

Business is so bad for me and despite 11 years old and 170,000km my 2005 Fortuner is still in fairly good condition so I'm not in a rush to replace it any time so soon but It looks like new Pajero Sport is more sensible choice. Bit I just hate the rear view of that car.

Thanks again for all the inputs.

[IMHO]

Maybe the difference (Aus v Thai) in numbers comes down to the quality of fuels.

How does that explain the very narrow differences in the Camry and Hilux numbers then?

How does it explain that an Automatic Fortuner, has lower CO2 and better FE than a Manual Hilux when tested in Thailand - but Australian tests show that same combination results in the Fortuner doing ~10% worse then the Hilux?

AFAIK, both countries use the UNECE R101 test cycle.

[IMHO]

Thanks all for all the inputs, especially IMHO for digging out all the specifics. So can I conclude the price on TMT website as based on new 25% excise tax rate?

I bought my Fortuner new 11 years ago. It was then a top model (3.0L diesel turbo intercooler full time 4X4 with traction/differential control) and cost me about 1.26 million Baht if my memory serves right. It didn't have 6 air bags (only two front), cruise control, touch-screen navigation system, back camera (but sensors) and many other features that comes with the 2016 Fortuner but I'm struggling to understand almost 400,000 Baht price hike in 10 years (despite the tax hike, about 30% up in price). And however nice those new features are,1.62 million Baht for a pick up variant. Believe the excise tax of the Fortuner when I bought it was 20%. I wonder if there is any hidden tax included in the new Fortuner price?

Business is so bad for me and despite 11 years old and 170,000km my 2005 Fortuner is still in fairly good condition so I'm not in a rush to replace it any time so soon but It looks like new Pajero Sport is more sensible choice. Bit I just hate the rear view of that car.

Thanks again for all the inputs.

It probably cost you less than 1.26M. When they were first released, the top spec was around the 1M mark.

[Nordlys]

IMHO, 1,26M was the price on price tag. We might have received a small discount for having bought it during the spring motor show but I remember we waived the discount in lieu of accessories like bulbar.

[sebastion]

Maybe the difference (Aus v Thai) in numbers comes down to the quality of fuels.

How does that explain the very narrow differences in the Camry and Hilux numbers then?

How does it explain that an Automatic Fortuner, has lower CO2 and better FE than a Manual Hilux when tested in Thailand - but Australian tests show that same combination results in the Fortuner doing ~10% worse then the Hilux?

AFAIK, both countries use the UNECE R101 test cycle.

It was just a thought. Octane differences and all that.

Carry on..

[Nordlys]

Sorry for going off topic, but why does Mitsubishi Pajero Sport produce more horsepower (181ps) at 2.4L than new Fortuner at 2.8L (177ps)? Does that mean Pajero Sport save more fuel than 2.8L Fortuner given the same condition?

[IMHO]

Sorry for going off topic, but why does Mitsubishi Pajero Sport produce more horsepower (181ps) at 2.4L than new Fortuner at 2.8L (177ps)? Does that mean Pajero Sport save more fuel than 2.8L Fortuner given the same condition?

Headline numbers don't tell the whole story... IMHO, the best story is always told by comparing torque curves, which more clearly shows how an engine performs through the entire rev range you actually use.

Here's one I created that has the engines you seem to be interested in:

As you can see from this, the Mitsubishi 2.4L diesel spends most of it's rev range with a torque deficit compared to the Toyota 2.8L diesel, but at the same time is also clearly superior to the Toyota 2.4L, and the old 3.0L....

[Nordlys]

As you can see from this, the Mitsubishi 2.4L diesel spends most of it's rev range with a torque deficit compared to the Toyota 2.8L diesel, but at the same time is also clearly superior to the Toyota 2.4L, and the old 3.0L....

Thanks for that IMHO. Wow, so you're saying Pajero Sport at 2.4L is not only more powerful than my 3.0L, 11 years old Fortuner but also more torqueful? Hmmm... wonder why anyone chooses 2.8L Fortuner over 2.4L Pajero Sport?

I haven't really compared two models spec by spec but how do you explain the price difference between 1,629,000 Baht of Fortuner and 1,469,000 Baht of Pajero Sport (both top models) and which one would you buy and why if it was up to you? If there's any clear win to Fortuner over Pajero Sport in both specs and features that can justify 200,000 Baht difference it's not obvious to me and I can't help thinking the premium is actually for Toyota's brand name recognition over Mitsubishi.

[IMHO]

As you can see from this, the Mitsubishi 2.4L diesel spends most of it's rev range with a torque deficit compared to the Toyota 2.8L diesel, but at the same time is also clearly superior to the Toyota 2.4L, and the old 3.0L....

Thanks for that IMHO. Wow, so you're saying Pajero Sport at 2.4L is not only more powerful than my 3.0L, 11 years old Fortuner but also more torqueful? Hmmm... wonder why anyone chooses 2.8L Fortuner over 2.4L Pajero Sport?

I haven't really compared two models spec by spec but how do you explain the price difference between 1,629,000 Baht of Fortuner and 1,469,000 Baht of Pajero Sport (both top models) and which one would you buy and why if it was up to you? If there's any clear win to Fortuner over Pajero Sport in both specs and features that can justify 200,000 Baht difference it's not obvious to me and I can't help thinking the premium is actually for Toyota's brand name recognition over Mitsubishi.

Yes, the new Mistubishi 2.4L makes more power and torque than the Toyota 3.0L no matter which angle you look at it from. Then again, the Ford 2.2L diesel also beats it Technology has moved on...

The only features that are available on the Fortuner but not on the Pajero Sport are:

* Curtain airbags for the 3rd row seats

* Electric tailgate

But there's several features available on the Pajero Sport that are not available on the Fortuner...

There have been a couple of threads already comparing all the SUV's in this class (PPV):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/844998-2015-ppv-body-on-frame-suv-comparison/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/866174-mitsubishi-pajero-vs-toyota-fortuner-vs-ford-everest-201516/

Since then, the only things that have changed in the segment are the 2016 price increases, and the Everest Titanium+ getting adaptive cruise control and even more safety systems - but at the same time the biggest price hike too...

[DavisH]

It makes me wonder at what price point would the pjs/everest outsell the fortuner. Would the fortuner need to exceed 2M baht - 400K to 500K more than their competitors? How much would Thai consumers take before they switch brands? It still outsells the others despite being deficient in a number of areas. The mindset is changing....but slowly.