Offshore Biz and Thai Residency

[No1inbangkok]

Hi friends,

I'm establishing a business offshore as I can't be arsed with the hassle of it in Thailand. I want full ownership and so on and so on however I do live here at present.

I want to remain living here while running my offshore business. I will be conducting business with Thai and regional customers.

Any suggestions about the best way to remain, I don't mind doing 90 day visa runs etc, I just can't get my head around whether I need to return home to Europe to apply for business visa? Can I apply from HK? Do I need non immigrant b instead?

Can somebody shed some light?

All the best,

[Maestro]

The type of visa you need for Thailand depends on the purpose of your trip.

[No1inbangkok]

I guess you would call it consulting however I'd need to spend little if no time actually with my clients or working from their sites. I'd be based at home or in drop in office/coffee shops or similar.

I'm looking for the most effective way to remain long term with the odd week or two working in countries of my other clients - Oz, HK, Malaysia etc.

[elviajero]

You cannot legally operate a business within Thailand without a work permit. It doesn't matter that the business is offshore as you're not. You will either need to form a new company, which although you could only have 49% ownership, you can still retain control.

A non immigrant 'B' visa doesn't help. They are issued for someone wanting to work for a Thai company or for someone that wants to conduct business. You might get the business version if one of your Thai contacts was prepared to supply the invitation/paperwork. It limits you to conducting "business" (meetings) only, and you still cannot operate your business.

To be legal and get a long term visa/extension of stay you will need to be employed by your own or another Thai company.

[Maestro]

I guess you would call it consulting however I'd need to spend little if no time actually with my clients or working from their sites. I'd be based at home or in drop in office/coffee shops or similar.

I'm looking for the most effective way to remain long term with the odd week or two working in countries of my other clients - Oz, HK, Malaysia etc.

If you have clients in Thailand you could try at the consulate in Hong Kong for a multiple-entry non-B visa to visit these clients for business discussions on behalf of your company.

[JLCrab]

The Non-IMM 'B' Doing Business option seems much more geared to companies ex-Thailand buying from companies in Thailand than to companies ex-Thailand selling to companies in Thailand.

[onetime]

Structure your off-shore company. (BVI, Seychelles)

Establish a banking relationship in a tax haven with banking privacy laws.

Get your long term visa using a manner not associated with your off-shore company.

Work from home.

Keep your trap shut.

Job done.

[JLCrab]

Structure your off-shore company. (BVI, Seychelles)

Establish a banking relationship in a tax haven with banking privacy laws.

Get your long term visa using a manner not associated with your off-shore company.

Work from home.

Keep your trap shut.

Job done.

That depends on whether his 'conducting business' with his Thai customers is strictly on a remote basis or whether he will be at some point physically walking into their offices or other premises.

[No1inbangkok]

Occasionally I would attend customer meetings with my Thai customers. I could make this as often or as little as I like to be honest, one weekly, once monthly...

How will anybody know if I'm sitting in my condo or in coffee shop working? I'll not have an office or staff in Thailand....

Why could I not apply for a business visa in the name of my Australian or Singaporean business to enter Thailand for 90 days at a time for the odd meetings and to 'work' from home?

I'll more than likely have customers which would provide proof of meetings/emails etc...

Regards,

D

[JLCrab]

Up to you and the embassy/consulate where you apply for your visa.

[jspill]

How will anybody know if I'm sitting in my condo or in coffee shop working? I'll not have an office or staff in Thailand....

They wouldn't know, correct. Many do it, including myself and have had no issues. There haven't been any convictions for being a digital nomad, in fact there are highly visible Facebook groups, meetups in co-working spaces, and an annual digital nomad summit.

Working without a permit is illegal but it isn't explicitly defined anywhere if an online job with an offshore entity is considered working here. It's been debated for years.

It isn't actually possible to get a work permit for online work.

[ubonjoe]

Occasionally I would attend customer meetings with my Thai customers. I could make this as often or as little as I like to be honest, one weekly, once monthly...

How will anybody know if I'm sitting in my condo or in coffee shop working? I'll not have an office or staff in Thailand....

Why could I not apply for a business visa in the name of my Australian or Singaporean business to enter Thailand for 90 days at a time for the odd meetings and to 'work' from home?

I'll more than likely have customers which would provide proof of meetings/emails etc...

Regards,

D

You could possibley get a multiple entry non-b visa. Normally it would need to be applied for in your home country. You will not be able to get one within the region.

[RabC]

The Non-IMM 'B' Doing Business option seems much more geared to companies ex-Thailand buying from companies in Thailand than to companies ex-Thailand selling to companies in Thailand.

Its not slanted one way or the other, I have had a non B multi entry on many occasions and have never been asked what business I was doing. My UK company sponsored me and I got a letter of invitation from the Thai company I was visiting. Both sponsorship and invitation letters just said business meetings.

[elviajero]

How will anybody know if I'm sitting in my condo or in coffee shop working? I'll not have an office or staff in Thailand....

They wouldn't know, correct. Many do it, including myself and have had no issues. There haven't been any convictions for being a digital nomad, in fact there are highly visible Facebook groups, meetups in co-working spaces, and an annual digital nomad summit.

Working without a permit is illegal but it isn't explicitly defined anywhere if an online job with an offshore entity is considered working here. It's been debated for years.

It isn't actually possible to get a work permit for online work.

Online work doesn't need to be defined anywhere as the law is clear that work requires permission. Online work has not been deemed exempt.

The OP is not a DN in the way you are. He will be conducting business within Thai customers.

[elviajero]

Occasionally I would attend customer meetings with my Thai customers. I could make this as often or as little as I like to be honest, one weekly, once monthly...

How will anybody know if I'm sitting in my condo or in coffee shop working? I'll not have an office or staff in Thailand....

Why could I not apply for a business visa in the name of my Australian or Singaporean business to enter Thailand for 90 days at a time for the odd meetings and to 'work' from home?

I'll more than likely have customers which would provide proof of meetings/emails etc...

Regards,

D

They wouldn't know what you do.

If you could get a Thai customer to supply the paperwork you should be able to get a non 'B' visa for conducting business. It's probably your best option.

[JLCrab]

The Non-IMM 'B' Doing Business option seems much more geared to companies ex-Thailand buying from companies in Thailand than to companies ex-Thailand selling to companies in Thailand.

Its not slanted one way or the other, I have had a non B multi entry on many occasions and have never been asked what business I was doing. My UK company sponsored me and I got a letter of invitation from the Thai company I was visiting. Both sponsorship and invitation letters just said business meetings.

Fine - I received several one-year Multi-entry B visas a few years back as well. While it for a different IB visa it states the following:

2.3 Non-Immigrant Visa Category “IB” (Investment and Business Visa) is issued to foreign citizens employed to work on investment projects which are under the auspices of the Board of Investment of Thailand (BOI). Such projects must be involved in or bring benefit to Thailand in the following ways:

- Export-promotion

- Increasing employment

- Utilising local raw materials

- Projects engaging the provinces

- Encouraging technology transfer to Thai nationals

- Not hindering existing domestic businesses

So I would still state that that is really how the B is slanted as well and that is what they generally want to see.

[Maestro]

Occasionally I would attend customer meetings with my Thai customers. I could make this as often or as little as I like to be honest, one weekly, once monthly...

How will anybody know if I'm sitting in my condo or in coffee shop working? I'll not have an office or staff in Thailand....

Why could I not apply for a business visa in the name of my Australian or Singaporean business to enter Thailand for 90 days at a time for the odd meetings and to 'work' from home?

I'll more than likely have customers which would provide proof of meetings/emails etc...

Regards,

D

You could possibley get a multiple entry non-b visa. Normally it would need to be applied for in your home country. You will not be able to get one within the region.

I wonder, should it not be possible, at least theoretically, to get the multiple-entry non-B at a Thai consulate in the country where the employer (company) is domiciled?

[ubonjoe]

Maybe in Australia in his case. But certainly not in Singapore.

[RabC]

The Non-IMM 'B' Doing Business option seems much more geared to companies ex-Thailand buying from companies in Thailand than to companies ex-Thailand selling to companies in Thailand.

Its not slanted one way or the other, I have had a non B multi entry on many occasions and have never been asked what business I was doing. My UK company sponsored me and I got a letter of invitation from the Thai company I was visiting. Both sponsorship and invitation letters just said business meetings.

Fine - I received several one-year Multi-entry B visas a few years back as well. While it for a different IB visa it states the following:

2.3 Non-Immigrant Visa Category “IB” (Investment and Business Visa) is issued to foreign citizens employed to work on investment projects which are under the auspices of the Board of Investment of Thailand (BOI). Such projects must be involved in or bring benefit to Thailand in the following ways:

- Export-promotion

- Increasing employment

- Utilising local raw materials

- Projects engaging the provinces

- Encouraging technology transfer to Thai nationals

- Not hindering existing domestic businesses

So I would still state that that is really how the B is slanted as well and that is what they generally want to see.

Quote from Thai Embassy London which is where I always got my visas:

Category "B" To conduct business, to work, to study teaching course, to work as an English teacher, to take scuba diving or boxing lessons, to work as a sport coach, to do an internship, to work as a film-producer, journalist or reporter for a short period.

My application and sponsorship letters said the purpose was to conduct business, nothing more and nothing less. Also previously as a consultant I received business visas when travelling to conduct inspections/training of Thai facilities or personnel.

[elviajero]

The Non-IMM 'B' Doing Business option seems much more geared to companies ex-Thailand buying from companies in Thailand than to companies ex-Thailand selling to companies in Thailand.

Its not slanted one way or the other, I have had a non B multi entry on many occasions and have never been asked what business I was doing. My UK company sponsored me and I got a letter of invitation from the Thai company I was visiting. Both sponsorship and invitation letters just said business meetings.

Fine - I received several one-year Multi-entry B visas a few years back as well. While it for a different IB visa it states the following:

2.3 Non-Immigrant Visa Category “IB” (Investment and Business Visa) is issued to foreign citizens employed to work on investment projects which are under the auspices of the Board of Investment of Thailand (BOI). Such projects must be involved in or bring benefit to Thailand in the following ways:

- Export-promotion

- Increasing employment

- Utilising local raw materials

- Projects engaging the provinces

- Encouraging technology transfer to Thai nationals

- Not hindering existing domestic businesses

So I would still state that that is really how the B is slanted as well and that is what they generally want to see.

Quote from Thai Embassy London which is where I always got my visas:

Category "B" To conduct business, to work, to study teaching course, to work as an English teacher, to take scuba diving or boxing lessons, to work as a sport coach, to do an internship, to work as a film-producer, journalist or reporter for a short period.

My application and sponsorship letters said the purpose was to conduct business, nothing more and nothing less. Also previously as a consultant I received business visas when travelling to conduct inspections/training of Thai facilities or personnel.

'B' and 'IB' are two different categories of non immigrant visa. I don't see how the OP would qualify for the 'IB'. He would need a 'B' to conduct business.

[JLCrab]

Those are your personal circumstances. Some other persons might be evaluated differently and 'conducting business' alone would not be sufficient answer to 'Purpose of current visit'. Whether or not that person might have similar purpose and objectives to those stated in the IB Visa might make the difference.

I am not suggesting that the OP would qualify for an IB just that similar reasons are underlying when evaluating some B visa applications.

[blackcab]

How will anybody know if I'm sitting in my condo or in coffee shop working? I'll not have an office or staff in Thailand....

They wouldn't know, correct. Many do it, including myself and have had no issues. There haven't been any convictions for being a digital nomad, in fact there are highly visible Facebook groups, meetups in co-working spaces, and an annual digital nomad summit.

Working without a permit is illegal but it isn't explicitly defined anywhere if an online job with an offshore entity is considered working here. It's been debated for years.

It isn't actually possible to get a work permit for online work.

Incorrect. I know two people in Thailand who have work permits for conducting online business. The only thing is that they don't conduct the business for themselves. One works for a hotel chain based in Thailand while the other works for a software company.

The fact is though that the work permits have been issued. If a company fulfilled the requirements (4 staff, etc etc) I'm sure they could get a work permit too.

[jspill]

I mean, I can't be an individual with a 100% online business and get a work permit. It'd have to be tied to some company based here and the permit is for some specific job.

No equivalent of e.g. Germany's freelancer visa that'd allow me to pay taxes and be an alternative option to tourist visas or the Thai Elite Card.

[JLCrab]

I mean, I can't be an individual with a 100% online business and get a work permit. It'd have to be tied to some company based here and the permit is for some specific job.

No equivalent of e.g. Germany's freelancer visa that'd allow me to pay taxes and be an alternative option to tourist visas or the Thai Elite Card.

... and as per the list above for the Non-IMM IB visa you bring none of those 'benefits to Thailand' as an individual with a 100% online business, I would not expect that situation to change anytime soon.

[No1inbangkok]

Can I apply for IB from Hong Kong?

I currently have an IB through my employer, am I amble to apply for one for myself or a business visa in the name of my ltd company whilst still holding one through my employer? (If I quit my job they will cancel my current Non-Imm B within 7 days)

[ubonjoe]

Can I apply for IB from Hong Kong?

I currently have an IB through my employer, am I amble to apply for one for myself or a business visa in the name of my ltd company whilst still holding one through my employer? (If I quit my job they will cancel my current Non-Imm B within 7 days)

The non-ib visa is normally only issued as a single entry visa so that a work permit and extension of stay can be obtained. To get one you need a letter from the BOI, state owned enterprise and etc.

[IMA_FARANG]

Structure your off-shore company. (BVI, Seychelles)

Establish a banking relationship in a tax haven with banking privacy laws.

Get your long term visa using a manner not associated with your off-shore company.

Work from home.

Keep your trap shut.

Job done.

That depends on whether his 'conducting business' with his Thai customers is strictly on a remote basis or whether he will be at some point physically walking into their offices or other premises.

----------------------------------

Not legally.

If he is physically located in Thailand, he is doing business in Thailand

The fact that he is using a computer located in Thailand to interview a client means he is doing business from Thailand.

He needs a Thai work permit to do that.

And the only way he can do that legally in Thailand is to have a legal Thai business established.

[jspill]

Not legally.

If he is physically located in Thailand, he is doing business in Thailand

The fact that he is using a computer located in Thailand to interview a client means he is doing business from Thailand.

He needs a Thai work permit to do that.

And the only way he can do that legally in Thailand is to have a legal Thai business established.

No, actually it's something of a grey area when it's 100% online, and none of us are an authority to state things so black and white.

'Generally speaking, to work in Thailand, foreigners should hold non-immigrant B visas and must obtain work permits from their employers. However, the increasing number of people working online does not fit into any neat visa category. Digital nomads – people working remotely or running online businesses – in Thailand can legally work there on tourist visas, said immigration officials in Chiang Mai.'

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/08/thai-immigration-officials-say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/

That article isn't a definite answer either, and has it's own issues. Also the longer someone does it, the more of an issue it might become.

[elviajero]

Not legally.

If he is physically located in Thailand, he is doing business in Thailand

The fact that he is using a computer located in Thailand to interview a client means he is doing business from Thailand.

He needs a Thai work permit to do that.

And the only way he can do that legally in Thailand is to have a legal Thai business established.

No, actually it's something of a grey area when it's 100% online, and none of us are an authority to state things so black and white.

'Generally speaking, to work in Thailand, foreigners should hold non-immigrant B visas and must obtain work permits from their employers. However, the increasing number of people working online does not fit into any neat visa category. Digital nomads – people working remotely or running online businesses – in Thailand can legally work there on tourist visas, said immigration officials in Chiang Mai.'

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/08/thai-immigration-officials-say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/

That article isn't a definite answer either, and has it's own issues. Also the longer someone does it, the more of an issue it might become.

There is no grey area whatsoever regarding the legality of a foreigner working in Thailand. The Immigration act is crystal clear that you cannot carry out any occupation or employment without permission.

Immigration Act, Section 37.

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the law concerned.

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf

You quote the Asian Correspondent article only because it misrepresents what was said at the Chiang Mai seminar and fits your persistent claims.

The City News article doesn't say it's legal as claimed by the Asian Correspondent. It only says that they can work. In other words that immigration tolerate the activity even though it's illegal.

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

Operating a business in Thailand is illegal. Accept the fact and be grateful that you have a window of opportunity to exploit a situation brought about by a flaw in the system.

It is completely reasonable for any nation to allow a tourist to keep up with his work/business whilst on holiday. As Thailand have no limit in the number of tourist visas one can have or the length of time one can live here entering as a tourist, they have to treat all "tourists" the same way. The only grey area is in who is a tourist and who is not in the spirit of Thailand's policy when issuing a tourist visa.

I look forward to the day when you post a link to something that is actually relevant to the topic, point being made and without bias.

[rwdrwdrwd]

It entirely depends upon whether the activity the OP is performing is considered to be work as per the definition of 'work' within Thai legislation by the DOL (and at the end of the day a judge).

The definition of 'work' in that legislation is self referential and as such is entirely unclear, nobody on this forum is qualified to declare that a particular activity is 'work' or not (unless they happen to be a Thai judge, and even then it can only be their own interpretation).

My opinion is that the OP's activities probably would be construed as 'work', since they refer to 'consulting' as well as Thai clients. But opinion it remains - it can't be stated as fact since the definition of work simply says 'working is working'.

Having 'business meetings' with Thai clients would be fine - this is allowed on a tourist visa, but this situation sounds like more than that.