One map, one more problem: PM Prayut told survey cut out 1,200 rai

[rooster59]

One map, one more problem: PM Prayut told survey cut out 1,200 rai



PHUKET: Officials in Bangkok are fuming after Prime Minister Gen Prayut Chan-o-cha was told that the ‘One Map’ project, aimed at seeing state agencies using a map set at the same scale, sliced off about 50 billion baht's worth of national park and forestry land in Phuket for the benefit of private investors.

In the past, the use of maps with different scales led to encroachment on forest areas and the fraudulent issuance of ownership documents, as areas often overlapped due to the varying scales, explained Justice Minister Gen Paiboon Koomchaya, who is also the chair of the national state land boundary enhancement committee.

The project was proposed last year as part of a solution to tackle the widespread issue of encroachment and deforestation.

When the 1:4000 scale map is officially used nationwide, it will be impossible to issue land ownership documents that are fraudulent, and authorities will be able to take more effective action against people who encroach on forestland, Gen Paiboon said.

However, the Prime Minister last week received a complaint from Damrong Phidet, a member of the National Reform Steering Assembly and former director general of the Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation (DNP).

“I have obtained and passed on information incriminating officials who abused their power and sold off about 1,200 rai of forestry and park land,” said Mr Damrong. “I was informed by a number of officials who were working on the One Map project about inaccurate information being used to mark park and forestry land. They did not want to sign off on the measurements, as they knew that land was missing.”

Full story: http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/One-map-one-problem-PM-Prayut-told/62940?desktopversion#ad-image-0

-- Phuket Gazette 2016-01-23

[LivinginKata]

Is this any surprise .... no

[Pattaya28]

Appears unstoppable corruption is on the devious increase.

How will the PM address this instant ?

[Konaboy1]

Is this any surprise .... no

Eventually there will be no more nationaal land to steaL??

[NCC1701A]

it is called a land survey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveying

more endless stupidly.

sometimes a powerful wizard called a land surveyor uses magic from the sky called GPS to help in this process.

ok, now back to reading for four year old children. "i do not like green eggs and ham, Sam I am"

[tuanku]

it will be impossible to issue land ownership documents that are fraudulent, and authorities will be able to take more effective action against people who encroach on forestland,

Oh no it won't ways will be found.

Incidentally GPS technology has been around for 30 years now - I suppose it is too much to expect any one involved with the land offices or national parks to know any uses for it other than finding your way to the nearest massage parlour.

[maoro2013]

What has the scale of the map to do with anything. Maps are relative to their surroundings. Total BS

[smedly]

who are they stealing from might be worth mentioning

[gandalf12]

It is the co-ordinates that are used and can be found using GPS

[LivinginKata]

who are they stealing from might be worth mentioning

They are stealing national park land = the Thai people

[RIJoe]

Maoro, if two people have maps of different scale, one or both of the people, may not be bright enough to understand why one border is 5 cm but on the other map it's 3 cm.

[Doc46]

It is the co-ordinates that are used and can be found using GPS

Yea we all know that,,,,It's the Idiots Who are reading the GPS Who Stuffing things up,(they are the ones who get paid to read the GPS WRONG),,,,

[Coyoti]

My guess is that they used mostly manual land survey and cartographic techniques, possibly with the help of GPS control. However you do it, you still have to “connect the dots” with the legal property descriptions. They could do so much more in the way of determining property boundaries and in managing infrastructure and resources if they’d create a true Geographic Information System (GIS) using controlled orthophotography as the base. With a GIS the scale is variable and dependent only on the accuracy of the underlying control via GPS. Due to the cost and technology involved, and the scale dependency mentioned, I doubt that’s how they created the map or it would be mentioned along the lines of “see how we used modern mapping technology”. I don’t see creating a GIS here happening anytime soon. This is Thailand. I’m skeptical anybody in government has even considered it.

[chilli42]

Hey, maybe they can bring in those clowns from the Oregon bird sanctuary, snipers and overweight operators, to put things right.

[tuanku]

who are they stealing from might be worth mentioning

officials who abused their power and sold off about 1,200 rai of forestry and park land,

They are stealing from the people - like all the other influential and unusually rich

Who is doing the stealing would make a better story but the cowed Thai media is unlikely to go there.

[tuanku]

My guess is that they used mostly manual land survey and cartographic techniques, possibly with the help of GPS control. However you do it, you still have to connect the dots with the legal property descriptions. They could do so much more in the way of determining property boundaries and in managing infrastructure and resources if theyd create a true Geographic Information System (GIS) using controlled orthophotography as the base. With a GIS the scale is variable and dependent only on the accuracy of the underlying control via GPS. Due to the cost and technology involved, and the scale dependency mentioned, I doubt thats how they created the map or it would be mentioned along the lines of see how we used modern mapping technology. I dont see creating a GIS here happening anytime soon. This is Thailand. Im skeptical anybody in government has even considered it.

Both the words "information" and system are swearwords as far as the current management is concerned. (Geographic simply isn't understood)

(have you ever tried to buy a real map in Thailand - the RTSD refuses on the grounds of National Security!)

Edited January 23, 2016 by tuanku

[Happy Grumpy]

The maps are to blame.

[Reigntax]

More crap. The scale of a map makes no difference to boundary location. It may however, require some very basic maths to compare one map scale against another.

[tigermoth]

Scale has nothing to do with it. This is just an excuse for letting officials off the hook. Again shows the appalling lack of education and honesty of our esteemed leaders. I am astounded that Mr. Prayut should use this excuse. Yet another foot in the mouth.

[diehard60]

They will never get rid of all the corruption. This how these rich people get even richer.

[Coyoti]

More crap. The scale of a map makes no difference to boundary location. It may however, require some very basic maths to compare one map scale against another.

Surely you can use math to compare map scales. What you sacrifice when trying to interpolate from a small scale to a larger scale is accuracy. Any map is only as good as the underlying data and processes used to create it. Without getting into the socio-political aspects of this, I do think the One Map project is implementing the wrong solution to the problem of standardizing mapping. I’m not surprised at the short sightedness of what they are doing though.

[GreasyFingers]

Most of you blokes (except Coyoti) do not know anything about surveying boundaries. If you have an old map of an isolated parcel of land it will not have co-ordinates so GNSS (GPS is only the American system) would be of no help as scaling even approximate co-ordinates off a large scale map could be hundreds of metres out. Original boundary marks need to be found and then coordinated. It takes a long time to set up a proper GIS system.

[LivinginKata]

Most of you blokes (except Coyoti) do not know anything about surveying boundaries. If you have an old map of an isolated parcel of land it will not have co-ordinates so GNSS (GPS is only the American system) would be of no help as scaling even approximate co-ordinates off a large scale map could be hundreds of metres out. Original boundary marks need to be found and then coordinated. It takes a long time to set up a proper GIS system.

Yes, I agree. In the not so distant past land boundaries in Thailand were not that well defined. Couple of years ago my wife's land (inherited from her mother) was granted a Chanote title. Wife always thought about 3.5 rai, Chanote paper says 7.5 rai after the survey and Chanote posts installed.

[Coyoti]

Most of you blokes (except Coyoti) do not know anything about surveying boundaries. If you have an old map of an isolated parcel of land it will not have co-ordinates so GNSS (GPS is only the American system) would be of no help as scaling even approximate co-ordinates off a large scale map could be hundreds of metres out. Original boundary marks need to be found and then coordinated. It takes a long time to set up a proper GIS system.

Thanks for the compliment. GPS is actually a global system for determining locations on the earth. The survey system in the western part of the US is call the Public Land Survey System (PLSS).

After researching the system used in Thailand I discovered that the Thailand Department of Land (DOL) does in fact have the basis of a GIS or “casdastre” (digital record of land ownership), and it was likely used as the basis for the 1:4,000 mapping project. Although it’s pretty basic and incomplete at this point, DOL is further along than I gave them credit for in my earlier post in this thread. It remains to be seen how they continue to develop their system and what political ramifications come out of it. Obviously, exposing land encroachment won’t sit well with many rich and powerful people.

See: http://fig.net/resources/proceedings/fig_proceedings/fig2010/papers/ts08k/ts08k_utesnan_3966.pdf

[GreasyFingers]

Most of you blokes (except Coyoti) do not know anything about surveying boundaries. If you have an old map of an isolated parcel of land it will not have co-ordinates so GNSS (GPS is only the American system) would be of no help as scaling even approximate co-ordinates off a large scale map could be hundreds of metres out. Original boundary marks need to be found and then coordinated. It takes a long time to set up a proper GIS system.

Thanks for the compliment. GPS is actually a global system for determining locations on the earth. The survey system in the western part of the US is call the Public Land Survey System (PLSS).

After researching the system used in Thailand I discovered that the Thailand Department of Land (DOL) does in fact have the basis of a GIS or “casdastre” (digital record of land ownership), and it was likely used as the basis for the 1:4,000 mapping project. Although it’s pretty basic and incomplete at this point, DOL is further along than I gave them credit for in my earlier post in this thread. It remains to be seen how they continue to develop their system and what political ramifications come out of it. Obviously, exposing land encroachment won’t sit well with many rich and powerful people.

See: http://fig.net/resources/proceedings/fig_proceedings/fig2010/papers/ts08k/ts08k_utesnan_3966.pdf

Sorry to be technical but GPS is the American satellite system. Most countries outside the USA now use Global Navigation Satellite System that uses the European, Russian, Asian and other satellite systems as well.

[billd766]

My guess is that they used mostly manual land survey and cartographic techniques, possibly with the help of GPS control. However you do it, you still have to connect the dots with the legal property descriptions. They could do so much more in the way of determining property boundaries and in managing infrastructure and resources if theyd create a true Geographic Information System (GIS) using controlled orthophotography as the base. With a GIS the scale is variable and dependent only on the accuracy of the underlying control via GPS. Due to the cost and technology involved, and the scale dependency mentioned, I doubt thats how they created the map or it would be mentioned along the lines of see how we used modern mapping technology. I dont see creating a GIS here happening anytime soon. This is Thailand. Im skeptical anybody in government has even considered it.

Both the words "information" and system are swearwords as far as the current management is concerned. (Geographic simply isn't understood)

(have you ever tried to buy a real map in Thailand - the RTSD refuses on the grounds of National Security!)

I had very few problems buying maps of Thailand when I needed them a few years ago before GPS properly came on line. Certain maps were not for sale but they were the border areas. I used to buy from book stores, The survey department and even from the Army on occasion.

AFAIK they are still available in good book shops.

[NamKangMan]

The maps are to blame.

Thailand tried this one in the World Court with it's dispute over ownership of the Preah Vihear Temple with Cambodia.

It was laughable.

[Coyoti]

Most of you blokes (except Coyoti) do not know anything about surveying boundaries. If you have an old map of an isolated parcel of land it will not have co-ordinates so GNSS (GPS is only the American system) would be of no help as scaling even approximate co-ordinates off a large scale map could be hundreds of metres out. Original boundary marks need to be found and then coordinated. It takes a long time to set up a proper GIS system.

Thanks for the compliment. GPS is actually a global system for determining locations on the earth. The survey system in the western part of the US is call the Public Land Survey System (PLSS).

After researching the system used in Thailand I discovered that the Thailand Department of Land (DOL) does in fact have the basis of a GIS or “casdastre” (digital record of land ownership), and it was likely used as the basis for the 1:4,000 mapping project. Although it’s pretty basic and incomplete at this point, DOL is further along than I gave them credit for in my earlier post in this thread. It remains to be seen how they continue to develop their system and what political ramifications come out of it. Obviously, exposing land encroachment won’t sit well with many rich and powerful people.

See: http://fig.net/resources/proceedings/fig_proceedings/fig2010/papers/ts08k/ts08k_utesnan_3966.pdf

Sorry to be technical but GPS is the American satellite system. Most countries outside the USA now use Global Navigation Satellite System that uses the European, Russian, Asian and other satellite systems as well.

I stand corrected. I thought the Europeans were using the Galileo program. I have no idea what the Thai use. The point is not what system they use for the underlying control, but that they are developing a GIS, property maps will get more accurate and that is going to make some people mad. I saw many political disputes over the cost and use of GIS technology years ago in the US when I was involved in developing one for a major city. I suspect similar disputes will be even more intense here given the way the government and other powerful people work. I hope that doesn't extend to forcing the current efforts to be side tracked

[billphillips]

Even with the newly revised map a .5 (half a millimetre) drawing line is 2 meters on the ground. Iv been involved in boundary disputes in the uk, costing thousands of pounds, to try and resolve; on whose property, or what side of the boundary a fence has been built. That's virtual impossible with maps and deeds dating back over 100 years. Flat and level ground is not to bad to survey, but once a sloping site enters the equation, add in ancient deeds etc then take natural erosion into account ... It's going to be guesswork even with gps.

However I can assure anyone that is not fully familiar with land / boundary disputes that it would not be acceptable to vary from map to ground to an error of more than 4 meters (and then; only in exceptional circumstances). It has to be understood that today we have the advantage of gps. When the maps were drawn it was probably a more basic technique. In the past, over here .... that could, and probably does, mean anything.

[Coyoti]

Even with the newly revised map a .5 (half a millimetre) drawing line is 2 meters on the ground. Iv been involved in boundary disputes in the uk, costing thousands of pounds, to try and resolve; on whose property, or what side of the boundary a fence has been built. That's virtual impossible with maps and deeds dating back over 100 years. Flat and level ground is not to bad to survey, but once a sloping site enters the equation, add in ancient deeds etc then take natural erosion into account ... It's going to be guesswork even with gps.

However I can assure anyone that is not fully familiar with land / boundary disputes that it would not be acceptable to vary from map to ground to an error of more than 4 meters (and then; only in exceptional circumstances). It has to be understood that today we have the advantage of gps. When the maps were drawn it was probably a more basic technique. In the past, over here .... that could, and probably does, mean anything.

You bring up a good point. I agree with you. Still, the more accurate data can be used to compare with what’s “on the ground” as a way to identify the large discrepancies to investigate and resolve on a case-by-case basis. That may well be how it could be used politically to go after less influential owners but conveniently don’t address property discrepancies when more powerful figures are involved. A major focus with the One Map project seems to be National Parks, which one hopes have fairly well defined boundaries.