Dodgy Employer

[Cockwomble]

I hate to start with "I have a friend....", however in this case it is correct and I would like some advice.

This friend is working for a German Boss, in Eastern Thailand. He has been working with the company since July 2015, and has covered a lot of additional work which he has not been renumerated for; they have also renegaded on a promised pay rise at the end of the year. There is evidence of bullying from his superior, and persistent harassment - it is certainly unpleasant and unethical. Over the past month he has become quite unwell, and has been signed off by the Doctor. Yesterday, he noticed that his company email had been closed, and access to his on line work files been locked.

My real questions are, can an employee dismiss a person whilst they are on medical sick leave? Is there any legal precedent on constructive dismissal? Can an employee be dismissed by email?

it would be interesting to know of others experience and knowledge. I have suggested to him that the place is not somewhere that anyone would continue to wish to work given the numerous issues. He has engaged a legal representative and spoken to the Labour Office yesterday.

[lovelomsak]

Has he been dismissed? Mt wife worked at a school she got sick they just kept putting off when she could come back till she quit. because it went on for months afetr she was well.

Who says your friend is dismissed?He is not at work so cannot respond to emails or anything work related. So I see it as the best interest of the company to protect their work force by closeing his email and files till he comes back. When he comes comes back to work probably get email back and files will open.. Has he ask or made any effort to deal with it or ask employer? Or is just assuming and speculating.

[Cockwomble]

Why would an email account be closed / disabled?

I have never witnessed that in my time working for other organisations governmental, multi national and local.

I did not say in the email that he has been dismissed at this poit, the question was, "can you be dismissed whilst on sick leave?"

[colinneil]

Why would an e-mail account be closed/disabled?

Easy probably contains sensitive/private information.

[Cockwomble]

Why would an e-mail account be closed/disabled?

Easy probably contains sensitive/private information.

It would be if he was dismissed, but he is still an employee

[lovelomsak]

Why would an e-mail account be closed/disabled?

Easy probably contains sensitive/private information.

It would be if he was dismissed, but he is still an employee

He is an employee away from his job.Who will answer his emails if some does email him? Best to close forcing people to contact people in the work force at the moment.

[geronimo]

The labour department will take up his case, leave it to them, and tell your friend he doesn't need a lawyer, they will provide that (if they think he has a case).

[NickJ]

geronimo is right. The labour Dept. does act fast and hard here. It never ceases to amaze me how Farang operating a business here ignore this fact.......

[tonray]

Did he try calling the office and asking ?

[PattayaAl]

I will say only 1 thing and many employees are not going to like it, but tough luck.

Companies and employers do not mistreat good staff.

Companies and employers mistreat ONLY staff who does not do their job.

Naturally employees always think they work very hard, clearly it is not the case.

Email is not disabled but most likely changed password because your "friend" is not at work and clients should still be attended to and clearly company does not trust your friend to do the right thing no matter what your friend thinks.

Your friend did not get a pay rise because he/she is not performing up to company standards or expectations.

Firing him would be costly, so the cheapest and easiest way to get rid of useless employee is to make their life miserable, so they just quit.

[PattayaAl]

The labour department will take up his case, leave it to them, and tell your friend he doesn't need a lawyer, they will provide that (if they think he has a case).

What does labor department have to do with limited access to emails?

[Don Mega]

Firing him would be costly, so the cheapest and easiest way to get rid of useless employee is to make their life miserable, so they just quit.

He has been an employee for about 7 months. it will cost zero to fire him.

As to the emails and document stuff.... Our work servers are sometimes offline for periods of time. during this time they cannot be accessed.

[PattayaAl]

Firing him would be costly, so the cheapest and easiest way to get rid of useless employee is to make their life miserable, so they just quit.

He has been an employee for about 7 months. it will cost zero to fire him.

As to the emails and document stuff.... Our work servers are sometimes offline for periods of time. during this time they cannot be accessed.

It will cost severance pay to fire him

[camble]

I think I understand the situation. The employer exercised poor judgement in hiring someone without the necessary skills to perform the job. Most likely the employer does not have the expertise to effectively evaluate talent. For several months, the employee has been compensated more than what his skills warrant and is now resorting to phony doctor's excuses in an attempt to squeeze more money from the employer. So, who's unethical?

[Don Mega]

Firing him would be costly, so the cheapest and easiest way to get rid of useless employee is to make their life miserable, so they just quit.

He has been an employee for about 7 months. it will cost zero to fire him.

As to the emails and document stuff.... Our work servers are sometimes offline for periods of time. during this time they cannot be accessed.

It will cost severance pay to fire him:thumbsup:

My bad. you are correct. I did not realise severance was payable after 120 days of employment (I thought it was 1 year) so the person would be owed 30 days severance.

also this "Employees entitled to severance pay are also entitled to an additional 30 days salary if they are terminated without 30 days notice."...............

[Cockwomble]

I think I understand the situation. The employer exercised poor judgement in hiring someone without the necessary skills to perform the job. Most likely the employer does not have the expertise to effectively evaluate talent. For several months, the employee has been compensated more than what his skills warrant and is now resorting to phony doctor's excuses in an attempt to squeeze more money from the employer. So, who's unethical?

From my understanding you are way off the mark. Regarding phony sickness, definatley not. So generally all comments invalid.

I have asked a couple of simple questions, none of which have been answered yet other than to suggest that its the employees fault.

Anyway, imo he is best off out of it if hes unhappy.

[blackcab]

Q: Can an employee dismiss a person whilst they are on medical sick leave?

A: Yes, however in most cases the employee would be entitled to 30 days notice or 30 days pay in lieu of notice plus severance pay. Depending on the circumstances, such termination might also be considered unfair dismissal (see below).

Q: Is there any legal precedent on constructive dismissal?

A: Constructive dismissal as a legal term does not exist in Thai law. Unfair dismissal is the closest similar term. My understanding is that there are legal precedents set by the Supreme Court. Broadly speaking, unfair dismissal could be claimed for similar reasons as constructive dismissal. You would of course need proof of your claims.

Q: Can an employee be dismissed by email?

A: Yes.

[PattayaAl]

I think I understand the situation. The employer exercised poor judgement in hiring someone without the necessary skills to perform the job. Most likely the employer does not have the expertise to effectively evaluate talent. For several months, the employee has been compensated more than what his skills warrant and is now resorting to phony doctor's excuses in an attempt to squeeze more money from the employer. So, who's unethical?

From my understanding you are way off the mark. Regarding phony sickness, definatley not. So generally all comments invalid.

I have asked a couple of simple questions, none of which have been answered yet other than to suggest that its the employees fault.

Anyway, imo he is best off out of it if hes unhappy.

Fairly safe to assume he has been " sick" for a while now.

As someone mentioned he has only worked for 7 months so sick days would be around 15 days.

Since he has spoken to labor department and yet you felt the need to make a post , would I be wrong to assume labor department did not take his side or the case?

Now more interesting question to you, according to you, his email access has been blocked , so why would you ask if he could be fired by email ? When he has no access to it?

[Cockwomble]

I would Assume Al, that work places also have workers alternative email addresses from their application forms? I actually understand that there is a proper procedure under dismissal, and i don't believe email is a form that can be used. Might be some that have been through the process.

As for "sick for a while" ; 10 days i understand.

Much is hypothetical as he hasnt been notified of dismissal, as of yet. I guess he will know more come Tuesday.

No one really has answered the simple questions, other than to pick holes. I must try to write in a clearer language in future, with some pictures to accompany it. The info about Labour department being supportive is also my understanding, thankyou.

[blackcab]

No one really has answered the simple questions, other than to pick holes.

If you look back a few posts hopefully you will see that I tried.

[blackcab]

I actually understand that there is a proper procedure under dismissal, and i don't believe email is a form that can be used. Might be some that have been through the process.

Email can be used. The question is whether the company would want to. The reason a registered letter is used as standard practice is that there is no way of denying the letter was signed for. Conversely it is rarely provable an email has been read. In which case the company could be made to pay extra to terminate the employee as it could be deemed notice had not been served.

Don't forget that employees can be terminated face to face too.

Edited February 21, 2016 by blackcab

[Don Mega]

I would Assume Al, that work places also have workers alternative email addresses from their application forms? I actually understand that there is a proper procedure under dismissal, and i don't believe email is a form that can be used. Might be some that have been through the process.

As for "sick for a while" ; 10 days i understand.

Much is hypothetical as he hasnt been notified of dismissal, as of yet. I guess he will know more come Tuesday.

No one really has answered the simple questions, other than to pick holes. I must try to write in a clearer language in future, with some pictures to accompany it. The info about Labour department being supportive is also my understanding, thankyou.

you expect conclusive replies to simple questions based on a hypothetical situation.

Allrighty then.

[camble]

When this employee was interviewed for the job he was asked by AZ whether he could do it. He responded affirmatively so AZ provided a premium salary and is holding him responsible for lying during the interview. This guy is NOT going to get any severance pay, nor does he deserve any.

[PattayaAl]

When this employee was interviewed for the job he was asked by AZ whether he could do it. He responded affirmatively so AZ provided a premium salary and is holding him responsible for lying during the interview. This guy is NOT going to get any severance pay, nor does he deserve any.

Incorrect, he is still entitled to severance pay,

[camble]

When this employee was interviewed for the job he was asked by AZ whether he could do it. He responded affirmatively so AZ provided a premium salary and is holding him responsible for lying during the interview. This guy is NOT going to get any severance pay, nor does he deserve any.

Incorrect, he is still entitled to severance pay,

Only according to Thai law, but not according to AZ's law which I am quite familiar with because I worked for him 6 years. The smartest thing the employee can do now is quit.

[blackcab]

Actually if the employee wants severance pay the smartest thing he can do is wait to get dismissed.

If he quits he gets nothing.

[camble]

Actually if the employee wants severance pay the smartest thing he can do is wait to get dismissed.

If he quits he gets nothing.

If he quits he saves his health and self respect. It appears he can't handle emotional stress and expects to be rewarded for incompetence.

[blackcab]

If that's the case then he has realistic expectations. The labour board really don't care if the employee is incompetent or not.

If an employee gets dismissed then the employer has to pay the correct severance.

In the last company I worked for we had notice served on the company to appear within 7 days, and the judgement against us was made within the month.

We got hit with the maximum payout.

[PattayaAl]

When this employee was interviewed for the job he was asked by AZ whether he could do it. He responded affirmatively so AZ provided a premium salary and is holding him responsible for lying during the interview. This guy is NOT going to get any severance pay, nor does he deserve any.

Incorrect, he is still entitled to severance pay,

Only according to Thai law, but not according to AZ's law which I am quite familiar with because I worked for him 6 years. The smartest thing the employee can do now is quit.

Sorry, who or what is AZ law? Is it the name of the company?

Sadly in Thailand, company rules or regulations have little meaning when it comes to Labor Law,

The way it is seen in Thailand is if employee came to work, then he must be paid.

Company can deduct money for losses employee has caused, providing company can show irrefutable evidence.

Even if company catches employee stealing red handed, by law, company can withhold stolen amount, but still must pay for the worked days.

As insane as it sounds, this is how it is