Gay parents fight for custody with surrogate in Thailand

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Gay parents fight for custody with surrogate in Thailand

YING PANYAPON, Associated Press

BANGKOK (AP) — An American-Spanish same-sex couple opened a high-profile custody battle in Thailand on Wednesday for a baby girl born to a surrogate mother, who decided she wanted to keep the child when she found out they were gay.

The case is complicated by the fact that Thai law does not recognize same-sex marriages and also by a new law that bans commercial surrogacy, which took effect after baby Carmen's birth.

The couple — American Gordon Lake and Spaniard Manuel Santos, both 41 — have been stuck in Thailand since launching their legal battle after Carmen was born in January 2015.

"It's the day we've been waiting for — for a long, long time. Today is one of the most important days of our lives," Lake said outside Bangkok's Juvenile and Family Court. "The court should give us custody of Carmen because it's the right thing to do."

Lake is the biological father of baby Carmen, who is now 14 months old, while the egg came from an anonymous donor, not the Thai surrogate, Patidta Kusolsang.

When Carmen was born, Patidta handed over the baby to Lake and Santos, who left the hospital with the infant. But they say Patidta then changed her mind and refused to sign the documents to allow Carmen to get a passport so they could leave Thailand.

Lake and Santos were told she had thought they were an "ordinary family and that she worried for Carmen's upbringing," according to a message Lake posted on a crowd funding site that has raised $36,000 to help cover the costs of the trial and staying in Thailand.

Patidta's lawyer declined to speak to reporters at the court Wednesday. Testimony from both sides is scheduled to end March 31.

Lake has said he doesn't know why the surrogate says she didn't know he was gay. He says he was clear about that from the start with their surrogacy agency, called New Life, which has branches in several countries.

The Bangkok-based New Life office has closed since commercial surrogacy was outlawed in Thailand in July 2015, following several high-profile scandals. There was a grace period provided for parents whose babies were already on the way, and Lake says he hopes the judge is sympathetic to them.

"It was always known it was a surrogacy agreement. We're the intended parents. We're the people that wanted to have a child," said Lake, who is originally from New Jersey. "We just want to go home and we just want to be a family. A normal boring family."

Carmen has lived with the couple since her birth, and they carried her into the court on Wednesday.

The couple's lawyer, Rachapol Sirikulchit, says he is confident they will be awarded custody and take the baby with them to Spain, where they live.

"Baby Carmen has the right to be with her biological father, who supports her financially and has cared for her since she was born," Rachapol said. "The priority is to consider the benefit for children and that they have the right to live with their biological parent."

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-03-23

[Jingthing]

Best of luck to the happy parents!

[worgeordie]

With so many orphans in the World,many living in dire circumstances,

a better choice would have been to adopt one of them,give the child

a better life,instead of bringing another soul into the World.

regards Worgeordie

[Jingthing]

This child exists. Too late for morality lectures about how adoption is better. Which I agree with but not relevant to this case.

[thesetat2013]

This child exists. Too late for morality lectures about how adoption is better. Which I agree with but not relevant to this case.

Agreed and the law didn't take effect until after the birth. Unless that law specified it was enforceable prior to its approval then it is pointless mentioning it in the article.

[jspill]

Strange in a country very tolerant towards homosexuality.

More likely the mother just became attached to the child and wanted to keep it, along with the money.

[lkv]

Strange in a country very tolerant towards homosexuality.

More likely the mother just became attached to the child and wanted to keep it, along with the money.

I think this article can better explain the difference between tolerance and acceptance in Thailand.

http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/gay-dads/

[rkidlad]

Strange in a country very tolerant towards homosexuality.

More likely the mother just became attached to the child and wanted to keep it, along with the money.

I think this article can better explain the difference between tolerance and acceptance in Thailand.

http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/gay-dads/

I have to agree. Thailand isn't always the cool gay friendly place everyone thinks it is.

Gays are very often stereotyped here. Gays are assumed to be camp, funny and outgoing. Overweight gays are not allowed to be anything else. Gays are often referred to as 'not real men' and when's the last time you saw anyone of any real power in this country who is openly gay?

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of idiots in my country who will verbally attack someone for being gay. This unfortunately comes with freedom of speech. But at least we have laws recognising gay men and women who are married as equal to heterosexuals under the eyes of the law.

If she's become attached to the baby, fair enough. It's a hard one. If she just wants more money, or believes gays shouldn't be allowed to have children, she's a pretty deplorable/ignorant human being.

[lostinisaan]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

[uthaithanirules]

This child exists. Too late for morality lectures about how adoption is better. Which I agree with but not relevant to this case.

Egg donor obviously thai though

So I wouldnt be surprised if the judge says no

1/2 thai baby, thai surrogate wants to look after it, thai judge

[jvs]

Lostinisaan,you are very very wrong imo.You say you have nothing against gay people and then you start your rant against them.

Anyway the woman is not the real mother?She did carry the baby but it was not her egg,does that make her the legal mother?

I can not predict the outcome of this case but i hope the baby will grow up being truly loved.

[richard_smith237]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

I don't think I've ever read a more ignorant post on this forum.

Giver - taker ??? Really... These are your issues with this case?

Is it really important who takes the young girl to school when the time comes?

A loving and environment environment is all that's required... I worry more for the child of ignorant, bigoted parents.

This child may face battles, but none more than many other children... For example those of mixed marriages, single parent families, children born into economic hardship, alcoholic parents....etc etc.... Perhaps some kids may face the affliction of an incredibly ignorant and brainless parent.... Did you have a child lostinissan?

[ronrat]

They could save the kid getting a rash by having a shave.

[teacherpaul]

Strange in a country very tolerant towards homosexuality.

More likely the mother just became attached to the child and wanted to keep it, along with the money.

I think this article can better explain the difference between tolerance and acceptance in Thailand.

http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/gay-dads/

I have to agree. Thailand isn't always the cool gay friendly place everyone thinks it is.

Gays are very often stereotyped here. Gays are assumed to be camp, funny and outgoing. Overweight gays are not allowed to be anything else. Gays are often referred to as 'not real men' and when's the last time you saw anyone of any real power in this country who is openly gay?

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of idiots in my country who will verbally attack someone for being gay. This unfortunately comes with freedom of speech. But at least we have laws recognising gay men and women who are married as equal to heterosexuals under the eyes of the law.

If she's become attached to the baby, fair enough. It's a hard one. If she just wants more money, or believes gays shouldn't be allowed to have children, she's a pretty deplorable/ignorant human being.

Nothing wrong with stereotyping gays. At least you know what you're dealing with.

[teacherpaul]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

I don't think I've ever read a more ignorant post on this forum.

Giver - taker ??? Really... These are your issues with this case?

Is it really important who takes the young girl to school when the time comes?

A loving and environment environment is all that's required... I worry more for the child of ignorant, bigoted parents.

This child may face battles, but none more than many other children... For example those of mixed marriages, single parent families, children born into economic hardship, alcoholic parents....etc etc.... Perhaps some kids may face the affliction of an incredibly ignorant and brainless parent.... Did you have a child lostinissan?

It is you that is being ignorant. Marriage and parenthood is for men and women. That poor kid will get bullied at school for having same sex parents and the selfish "parents" don't seem to care about that, as long as they have their cute little Asian "toy". The whole thing rightly turns my stomach. Let's hope the judge throws the case out and the child either stays with the mother or gets adopted by a man and a woman. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

[captspectre]

This child exists. Too late for morality lectures about how adoption is better. Which I agree with but not relevant to this case.

Egg donor obviously thai though

So I wouldnt be surprised if the judge says no

1/2 thai baby, thai surrogate wants to look after it, thai judge

Are these two HOMOSEXUALS still trying to take this baby out of thailand? though this case was settled months ago! hope the Thai government sticks by it's guns. HOMOSEXUALS should not have the right to adopt any child! how would it grow up seeing two men and no mother? does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. it's called visual brain washing. have them go back to their countries and try to adopt a child! see how that comes out!

[SOTIRIOS]

........first excuse was............ 'she thought they were going to traffic the baby'.....

.......somebody is obviously coaching her ....

....bottom line is........The Bottom Line.......

....nothing to do with love or concern for the well-being of another human.........

..........so many 'mothers'......hiding behind the word.......

[tominbkk]

I would suggest that nobody feed the trolls currently in this topic. There are some good healthy discussions going on, but those that are highly homophobic are not worth anyone's time or effort. If you ignore the trolls, or better, block them, it scares them back under their bridge.

[djayz]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

I don't think I've ever read a more ignorant post on this forum.

Giver - taker ??? Really... These are your issues with this case?

Is it really important who takes the young girl to school when the time comes?

A loving and environment environment is all that's required... I worry more for the child of ignorant, bigoted parents.

This child may face battles, but none more than many other children... For example those of mixed marriages, single parent families, children born into economic hardship, alcoholic parents....etc etc.... Perhaps some kids may face the affliction of an incredibly ignorant and brainless parent.... Did you have a child lostinissan?

It is you that is being ignorant. Marriage and parenthood is for men and women. That poor kid will get bullied at school for having same sex parents and the selfish "parents" don't seem to care about that, as long as they have their cute little Asian "toy". The whole thing rightly turns my stomach. Let's hope the judge throws the case out and the child either stays with the mother or gets adopted by a man and a woman. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

100% agree. Mother nature intended us to grow up with a mother and a father - not two mothers/fathers.

Amam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

If you stick your willy into another man, you cannot expect to have children.

To all the gay lads reading this: No, I'm not homophobic - which seems to be the usual rebuttal when people don't bend over (no pun intended) and agree with all things gay.

[sunnyjim5]

If these two were so desperate to become parents it could all have been arranged in the USA !

https://www.surrogacyamerica.com/prospective-parents/surrogacy-cost-fees

It would seem they sought a "cheap" option.

[richard_smith237]

There are so many bigger issues in life and this world.

Any child will be lucky to have genuinely living and caring parents.

Too many people are getting hung up on the Gay thing... Would these same people have objected to black couple adopting a white child 50 years ago?

Some people really fail to grasp how antiquated and narrow minded their views are.

[Jingthing]

Some new information here is that previously the surrogate woman said she wasn't informed the family was gay and that was accepted as a fact. Now the family is saying that she was informed. That should logically help their case if they can document that, but they probably can't.

The GLBT civil rights aspects of this are part of this case, whether people like it or not. Same sex marriage is not legal in Thailand, so the legally married couple is in the position where there is really only one legal parent here, the biological father, seen in Thailand as single.

So it's a bit of a mess but of course the family deserves to keep the child. They had a CONTRACT, it was LEGAL at the time, they have BONDED with the child over some time now.

Let them go to Spain with their baby!

Edited March 24, 2016 by Jingthing

[uthaithanirules]

This child exists. Too late for morality lectures about how adoption is better. Which I agree with but not relevant to this case.

Egg donor obviously thai though

So I wouldnt be surprised if the judge says no

1/2 thai baby, thai surrogate wants to look after it, thai judge

Are these two HOMOSEXUALS still trying to take this baby out of thailand? though this case was settled months ago! hope the Thai government sticks by it's guns. HOMOSEXUALS should not have the right to adopt any child! how would it grow up seeing two men and no mother? does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. it's called visual brain washing. have them go back to their countries and try to adopt a child! see how that comes out!

Dude, learn to quote properly, makes it look like I wrote that garbage last paragraph

[chris1960]

Im afraid that i am a bit old school on things like this ,we had a program here on same sex couples and the raising of children and it was interesting to see hat actually went on .They followed a number of couples around for a number of weeks making this story ,in one instance where a male coupe had been posted to Fiji for his work he made sure his children were aware that they should not let people know of the family arrangement so maybe it aint the done thing in Fiji ,in another a female couple they went to a department store where the young boy went to the cosmetics counter and started to put lipstick on until the attendant asked him to stop which infuriated the parent .

Now I will probably get called all kinds of names ect for this but as I said I am somewhat old school on this subject and I think if you want to stick your dick in another blokes bum then there are some wires not connecting properly otherwise we would all be doing it ,sorry if this offends some of you but that's my opinion and no matter how much you yell and scream and call me whatever it is my opinion and I'm sticking with it .As for children I think it is more about the couples egos than anything else and to be honest I think it is cruel to place a child in this sort of predicament where they may be the target of abuse assault or worse in school because of the life choices there parents/adult persons make .

[Jingthing]

He's a "bit" old school. That's rich.

[PlastikbinLina]

Best of luck to the happy parents!

And don't forget the mother who brought this baby into the world. Presumably the shirt lifters didn't inform the surrogate mother their orientation. A sorry mess indeed.

[lkv]

It is you that is being ignorant. Marriage and parenthood is for men and women. That poor kid will get bullied at school for having same sex parents and the selfish "parents" don't seem to care about that, as long as they have their cute little Asian "toy". The whole thing rightly turns my stomach. Let's hope the judge throws the case out and the child either stays with the mother or gets adopted by a man and a woman. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Kids get bullied at school for various reason (being short, being fat, being different).

The main reason they could get bullied for having gay parents is because of people like you teaching their own children to have a homophobic approach.

I'm sure that the parents have taken that into account and they will choose the environment they place the kid in carefully.

The rate of acceptance amongst the young demographic is currently about 80% in developed countries, by the time the kid gets older it will be even higher.

Edited March 24, 2016 by lkv

[Jingthing]

Best of luck to the happy parents!

And don't forget the mother who brought this baby into the world. Presumably the shirt lifters didn't inform the surrogate mother their orientation. A sorry mess indeed.

The gay couple claim she was informed. The baby has no biological connection to the surrogate woman. One of the fathers is the biological father. The surrogate woman provided a legal service which she signed a contract about.

Mostly the arguments against this couple getting their child are about anti-gay bias. If they were an opposite sex married couple they wouldn't have been subject to this nightmare.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Jingthing

[Orac]

If these two were so desperate to become parents it could all have been arranged in the USA !

https://www.surrogacyamerica.com/prospective-parents/surrogacy-cost-fees

It would seem they sought a "cheap" option.

Can't help but feel that the whole gay thing here is distracting people from the very real problems to do with commercial surrogacy and the exploitation that had been going on (and almost certainly still is) before this new law came into play - remember the japanese guy with his baby factory creating his own little army.

[Jingthing]

This contract was legal under the law at the time.

This isn't an issue about the legality of surrogacy now in Thailand.

It's about one baby, one family, and one surrogate woman who refuses to honor a legal (at the time) contract.