Gay parents fight for custody with surrogate in Thailand

[robertthebruce]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

Please change your Avatar to " lostinspace'

[robertthebruce]

Best of luck to the happy parents!

And don't forget the mother who brought this baby into the world. Presumably the shirt lifters didn't inform the surrogate mother their orientation. A sorry mess indeed.

The only sorry mess I see is your Attitude....Dark Ages or what ????

[shunter]

It's very sad when a child is conceived according to a fee and a contract as to its future. Soon have '' Trading Babies R Us'' shares on the stock exchange trading floor if this abhorrent trend continues.

[lostinisaan]

Im afraid that i am a bit old school on things like this ,we had a program here on same sex couples and the raising of children and it was interesting to see hat actually went on .They followed a number of couples around for a number of weeks making this story ,in one instance where a male coupe had been posted to Fiji for his work he made sure his children were aware that they should not let people know of the family arrangement so maybe it aint the done thing in Fiji ,in another a female couple they went to a department store where the young boy went to the cosmetics counter and started to put lipstick on until the attendant asked him to stop which infuriated the parent .

Now I will probably get called all kinds of names ect for this but as I said I am somewhat old school on this subject and I think if you want to stick your dick in another blokes bum then there are some wires not connecting properly otherwise we would all be doing it ,sorry if this offends some of you but that's my opinion and no matter how much you yell and scream and call me whatever it is my opinion and I'm sticking with it .As for children I think it is more about the couples egos than anything else and to be honest I think it is cruel to place a child in this sort of predicament where they may be the target of abuse assault or worse in school because of the life choices there parents/adult persons make .

Sorry, but we're living in the 21 st century and who sticks his thing inside whom, isn't important in my eyes. Better mind your own business.

Your offense to Gay people is very ignorant and selfish. Are straight people better people? And are you one of them who like to watch porn where two female actors do what you like to see?

There's nothing wrong with being Gay, Bi, people who love to wear female clothes, etc.. sexuality should be a part of each individual's freedom.

Your "a little bit old school" really shows some nasty religious beliefs, please take the Holy Catholic Church as an example. Priests are allowed to molest kids and the usual female workers who do the "laundry, food, etc for Monseigneur" often give birth to babies made by priests.

The "Holy Roman Catholic Church's paying for two kids "only". If they produce more kids, they have to pay it out of their own pocket.

No, the thread should never look like homosexuality is something bad, it's about two guys who're in love and wanted to buy a cheap baby.

Please look at some ( maybe a lot of) kids who sell chewing gum and other stuff in Pattaya's Walking Street. Many of them were bought from poor Cambodian parents and once they're old enough be part of the sex workers in this country.

Nobody wants to educate them, because they're already planned for the next step, the prostitution.

Sorry, for going off topic, but the whole discussion should be about the well-being of this little girl. There's no mother/child connection and it's in our nature to have a mom. Her smile on this photo between the two guys says nothing about her feelings.

My mom died in my own arms and I'm so glad and also thankful that I could have such a fantastic mother who did all for me.

Why should a little girl grow up without a her loving mother. There's another psychological problem where I believe it's of interest.

If you've never received any love as a child, you won't be able to give love to your kids. Let the children play.

[Jingthing]

It's very sad when a child is conceived according to a fee and a contract as to its future. Soon have '' Trading Babies R Us'' shares on the stock exchange trading floor if this abhorrent trend continues.

No we won't.

Scare mongering and off topic too.

This isn't about legalization of surrogacy in Thailand.

It's about one case when a legal contract was signed between two parties.

The parents fulfilled their part and now it's time for the surrogate woman to fulfill as well and let that loving family GO HOME TO SPAIN!

[lostinisaan]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

Please change your Avatar to " lostinspace'

It's my own personal opinion. Your reply only shows ignorance. There's no "Freedom of Speech" here. Thanks for the flowers.

[rkidlad]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

I don't think I've ever read a more ignorant post on this forum.

Giver - taker ??? Really... These are your issues with this case?

Is it really important who takes the young girl to school when the time comes?

A loving and environment environment is all that's required... I worry more for the child of ignorant, bigoted parents.

This child may face battles, but none more than many other children... For example those of mixed marriages, single parent families, children born into economic hardship, alcoholic parents....etc etc.... Perhaps some kids may face the affliction of an incredibly ignorant and brainless parent.... Did you have a child lostinissan?

It is you that is being ignorant. Marriage and parenthood is for men and women. That poor kid will get bullied at school for having same sex parents and the selfish "parents" don't seem to care about that, as long as they have their cute little Asian "toy". The whole thing rightly turns my stomach. Let's hope the judge throws the case out and the child either stays with the mother or gets adopted by a man and a woman. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

You're a teacher? No wonder teachers here have a bad reputation.

And by way, it's neither Adam and Eve nor Adam and Steve. Both sets of characters are fictitious, you cretin.

Kids can be bullied at school for being mixed-race. Should interracial couples stop having kids? Better still; stop dating people who are of a different race?

The only reason anyone is bullied for being deemed different is because of ignoramuses like you.

[Jingthing]

To anti-gay bigots this case isn't about a surrogacy contract. It's about furthering their rationalization that GLBT don't deserve equal civil rights here, here, or anywhere.

Surrogacy isn't legal in most nations.

But it was when this contract was signed in Thailand.

There really shouldn't be any other issue in this case.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Jingthing

[lkv]

Have a read of this. Explains the experience in detail.

https://www.change.org/p/bringcarmenhome

[chris1960]

What did i say ,someone has an opinion and someone else comes along and calls me and my post ignorant and selfish with nasty religous veiws ,well whoever you are I am not in the slightest way religious because its all rubbish and I don't care if we are living in the 24 century this is my opinion only ,if you don't like it so be it but I didn't abuse you in any shape or form but you see fit to do it to me grow up and do not use a computer keyboard as your weapon of choice to denigrate others opinions on a topic on this forum

[rkidlad]

What did i say ,someone has an opinion and someone else comes along and calls me and my post ignorant and selfish with nasty religous veiws ,well whoever you are I am not in the slightest way religious because its all rubbish and I don't care if we are living in the 24 century this is my opinion only ,if you don't like it so be it but I didn't abuse you in any shape or form but you see fit to do it to me grow up and do not use a computer keyboard as your weapon of choice to denigrate others opinions on a topic on this forum

"Do not use a computer keyboard as your weapon of choice to denigrate others opinions on a topic on this forum"

Oh, the irony of this comment.

[shunter]

Jingthing post # 35.

No we won't.

Scare mongering and off topic too.

This isn't about legalization of surrogacy in Thailand.

It's about one case when a legal contract was signed between two parties.

The parents fulfilled their part and now it's time for the surrogate woman to fulfill as well and let that loving family GO HOME TO SPAIN!

The whole issue is abhorrent,,the treating of the child as an asset to be used as the means of litigation in court without concern the long term welfare and rights of the child is both immoral and nauseating

An explanation as to why this contractually produced child was not conceived and born in Spain and subsequently was to be passed over to the two male parents may well put and interesting view on this case too.The whole issue reeks of evasion or possibly ignorance of the law by the Thai mother and of course by all parties concerned.

The child has now become a tort.

There are numerous specific torts including the intentional infliction of emotional distress. ... Intentional torts are those wrongs which the defendant(s) knew or should have known would occur through their actions ...the defendents being the two males

The above would apply equally to both parties involved in the action. Bear in mind though that a judgement may well be made in favour of the mother as the long term view may well be taken that the child is and would be seen as suffering emotional distress.

Surrogacy is not legal in Spain (the biological mother's renouncement contract is not legally valid), it is legal to perform the surrogacy in a country where it is legal and the mother having the nationality from that same country.

Note of course that the court here in Thailand may well acknowledge the mothers right to the renunciation of both the contract and the child'. note also there is no opposition to same sex marriage in Spain.

The whole issue of a breach of contract by the mother may well prove beneficial to her due to the fact that if it was proved she had entered knowingly or unknowingly or was coerced into committing an illegal act contrary to Spanish law (surrogacy) judgement would no doubt be in her favour and the child would remain with her.

​At the end of the day the most important person is the child.It is not an issue of sexuality.it is an issue of the long term welfare of the child., not the child's mother or the childs prospective parents.

Edited March 24, 2016 by shunter

[Jingthing]

Rubbish.

It's about Thai law, not Spanish law.

A bunch of lame excuses to mask opposition to the gay married couple's legitimacy.

If this was a straight couple, they would have flown to Spain with their baby LONG AGO.

Everyone knows that.

[khunken]

As a heterosexual male some of the homophobic posts here make me puke. The 21 century has allowed open-minded people of numerous countries to allow legal same-sex relationships and even marriage.

This case has to decide whether the child belongs with the father or a person, not the mother, who took money to conceive someone else's child. I hope the father wins.

It should be noted that Spain, where the two parents-to-be live, is one of the most open countries to same-sex relationships and has legalised same-sex marriage over 10 years ago. It should also be noted that in cases where a marriage or relationship has broken down, custody of any offspring is awarded to the father when the mother is deemed unsuitable for whatever reason.

There is no reason why the two gay men cannot be good parents and quite likely better than some hetero couples.

[Jingthing]

Love to heterosexual allies for GLBT civil rights.

[shunter]

I posted the possibilities concerning the possible outcome of such a case according to Thai law not Spanish law. You need to remember that if a criminal or civil breach of law is proven it will have an affect on the case,.

There is also the possibility that the two men involved could actually face prosecution concerning the surrogacy under Spanish law.

However you seem blinded to the legal aspect of the issue and your spirited defense of the two gentleman involved is bordering on hysterical.

The issue is not about their gender it is about the welfare of the child which rightly or wrongly will be decided by the courts,, not you, not me or the man and woman on the street or whoever is selling plates of somtam on Sukhumvit road.

Get a grip man stop pushing gender issues into everyone's face.

Remember, yes there are certainly G.L.B.T. rights as well as the child's rights nether one should over ride the other.

To be honest had all those involved not gone down a road of deception this issue would not be here,.

[robertthebruce]

Im afraid that i am a bit old school on things like this ,we had a program here on same sex couples and the raising of children and it was interesting to see hat actually went on .They followed a number of couples around for a number of weeks making this story ,in one instance where a male coupe had been posted to Fiji for his work he made sure his children were aware that they should not let people know of the family arrangement so maybe it aint the done thing in Fiji ,in another a female couple they went to a department store where the young boy went to the cosmetics counter and started to put lipstick on until the attendant asked him to stop which infuriated the parent .

Now I will probably get called all kinds of names ect for this but as I said I am somewhat old school on this subject and I think if you want to stick your dick in another blokes bum then there are some wires not connecting properly otherwise we would all be doing it ,sorry if this offends some of you but that's my opinion and no matter how much you yell and scream and call me whatever it is my opinion and I'm sticking with it .As for children I think it is more about the couples egos than anything else and to be honest I think it is cruel to place a child in this sort of predicament where they may be the target of abuse assault or worse in school because of the life choices there parents/adult persons make .

Sorry, but we're living in the 21 st century and who sticks his thing inside whom, isn't important in my eyes. Better mind your own business.

Your offense to Gay people is very ignorant and selfish. Are straight people better people? And are you one of them who like to watch porn where two female actors do what you like to see?

There's nothing wrong with being Gay, Bi, people who love to wear female clothes, etc.. sexuality should be a part of each individual's freedom.

Your "a little bit old school" really shows some nasty religious beliefs, please take the Holy Catholic Church as an example. Priests are allowed to molest kids and the usual female workers who do the "laundry, food, etc for Monseigneur" often give birth to babies made by priests.

The "Holy Roman Catholic Church's paying for two kids "only". If they produce more kids, they have to pay it out of their own pocket.

No, the thread should never look like homosexuality is something bad, it's about two guys who're in love and wanted to buy a cheap baby.

Please look at some ( maybe a lot of) kids who sell chewing gum and other stuff in Pattaya's Walking Street. Many of them were bought from poor Cambodian parents and once they're old enough be part of the sex workers in this country.

Nobody wants to educate them, because they're already planned for the next step, the prostitution.

Sorry, for going off topic, but the whole discussion should be about the well-being of this little girl. There's no mother/child connection and it's in our nature to have a mom. Her smile on this photo between the two guys says nothing about her feelings.

My mom died in my own arms and I'm so glad and also thankful that I could have such a fantastic mother who did all for me.

Why should a little girl grow up without a her loving mother. There's another psychological problem where I believe it's of interest.

If you've never received any love as a child, you won't be able to give love to your kids. Let the children play.

Excellent Post.... Well Said.....

[lkv]

Whoever read the link I have included in my previous post would see that the story is slightly more complicated. The child has US nationality therefore they are dealing with the American Embassy in Bangkok. Which, like any other Embassy can't really interfere in a judicial process of Thailand.

Edited March 24, 2016 by lkv

[Patsycat]

I have been following this story since it came to light last year.

Carmen has been brought up by her fathers almost since the day she was born, these men have put their lives, careers etc on hold to take care of Carmen.

They even had the egg donor come forward to help their case. Carmen has an older brother who was made with an egg from the same egg donor.

Even the husband of the surrogate has said he does not want Carmen. Whatever that woman is trying to do, is evil.

Google bringcarmenhome - you shall see pictures of a happy little girl playing with her big brother and her daddies. This is not child traffacking at all. This is an evil cow trying to gain her 15 minutes of fame.

That woman has no interest in Carmen, at all. All she has to do is sign the paper so Carmen can get her passport and go home to Spain where she has an extended family of people who love her and will welcome her and protect her.

This is not about homosexuality, this is about an evil woman who is having her head turned with promises of money and fame.

She is not Carmen's mother.

[Jingthing]

I posted the possibilities concerning the possible outcome of such a case according to Thai law not Spanish law. You need to remember that if a criminal or civil breach of law is proven it will have an affect on the case,.

There is also the possibility that the two men involved could actually face prosecution concerning the surrogacy under Spanish law.

However you seem blinded to the legal aspect of the issue and your spirited defense of the two gentleman involved is bordering on hysterical.

The issue is not about their gender it is about the welfare of the child which rightly or wrongly will be decided by the courts,, not you, not me or the man and woman on the street or whoever is selling plates of somtam on Sukhumvit road.

Get a grip man stop pushing gender issues into everyone's face.

Remember, yes there are certainly G.L.B.T. rights as well as the child's rights nether one should over ride the other.

To be honest had all those involved not gone down a road of deception this issue would not be here,.

What an intentionally inflammatory post.

Not surprising.

Hysterical? In your face?

That kind of garbage rhetoric is like when African Americans were called uppity n-words ... how dare minorities demand equal civil rights. The nerve of them.

Dude, again, we all know this married couple would be long gone with THEIR BABY back home in Spain if they were straight.

You can't act like that isn't real, because it obviously is.

I understand the charge of deception towards the surrogate woman but what deception was done by the married couple?

Edited March 24, 2016 by Jingthing

[shunter]

Pray tell me what is inflammatory about the post I made # 46

The post quotes the law, it is blatantly obvious that you seem to consider and support a certain section of the community who you think like are above the law.

The fact of the matter is that there is outright blatant deception with the whole issue concerning the couple involved in the matter. Why not consider the facts?

Those people left their country of residence so as to commit an act which was under that country's legal code an unlawful action, nothing more nothing less.

They purposely came to a country where the civil and criminal statutes surrounding their action are somewhat lax and vague.No checks no balances concerning the actions of all the involved parties until as such time as others start to see the issue for what it is, then the legal machinery starts to creep into action .

The fact is that that there was a calculated act based upon the outright deception and the exploitation of the laws and a somewhat gullible poorly educated and to a degree a financially motivated citizen of this country, coupled with a slap in the face concerning the laws in Spain, which are very amenable to same sex marriages and civil partnerships.The problem being though is that the Spanish legal system will not allow the surrogacy of children, So not content with that which they had these two men decided to confront the system.

Every action has a consequence so due to these two men we now see the future of an innocent child hanging in the balance and no doubt a great deal of damage to the issue of surrogacy as well.

The truth of the matter is that the deliberate actions of these two men are the inflammatory actions as opposed to the subsequent legal proceedings or comments made by myself and others concerning the matter.

So please do not try to cloud the issue or sidetrack it by bringing the issue of non connected civil rights into the matter.Just a reminder the child also has ''civil rights'' too, however due to the child's age others have to pursue the case on the child's behalf.

Yet you happily support the ''civil rights'' of one sector of society yet you want those same civil rights denied to another sector of society.

Now I along with many others consider such a stance as you have and are actively taking concerning this issued as bigotry and hypocrisy..

[Jingthing]

Shunter I don't believe you would be accusing me of bigotry if the exact same case was in the news but the married couple was straight. I agree the welfare of the baby is a valid question. She is obviously better off with a biological parent in Spain than with surrogate woman.

[shunter]

It's Chalk and Cheese, there is no comparison between the two issues within a legal framework.

The labelling of a married couple as straight is as discriminatory as labeling another couple gay, the creation of a sexual or moral category as a legal entity is wrong, such an action or,comment automatically creates a bias in the eyes of those involved in the issue.

The issue is not the sexuality of the concerned parties but of their previous actions and their proposed future actions which applies equally to the couple the mother and of course the child. Subsequently a precedent needs to be established in law regarding the situation.

The issue is further complicated by legal framework of the countries involved, the nationalities of those involved and most of all, the long term welfare of the child as well as a moral standpoint.

I wonder what judgement King Solomon would make had he been faced with this situation?.

[Jingthing]

A bunch of obfuscating gobbledygook. People can read between the lines. Sensible people know I speak the truth ... if this was a straight couple and infertile straight couple's are big on surrogacy, the baby be long ago OUT OF THAILAND.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The world is watching.

Let this family GO HOME.

A Gay Couple is Fighting Their Surrogate for Custody

Gordon Lake is Carmen's biological father and the egg came via anonymous donor, so Kusolsang isn't biologically related to the infant. According to the Telegraph, Lake had always been upfront with New Life, the surrogacy agency, about being gay and his relationship with Valero.

"We're the people that wanted to have a child. We just want to go home and we just want to be a family. A normal boring family," Lake said.

http://www.out.com/news-opinion/2016/3/24/gay-couple-fighting-their-surrogate-custody

[shunter]

I am not commenting on the gender issue I am commenting on the legal aspect.You do seem to have some sort of fixation concerning gender issues which you use to cloud the issue and do seem to want to impose upon others who too have their civil rights even if they are too young to understand them i.e. the poor child in the middle of this matter.

Certainly the world is watching and your arguments are not beneficial to the couple involved.

Please note that surrogacy is illegal in Thailand and retrospective actions are allowable in law regarding the surrogacy issue.

[Jingthing]

You're not fooling me. Maybe you're fooling others. Again this wouldn't be an issue if the couple was straight. Honest people would admit that.

Did you mean retroactive?

[shunter]

When you can begin to understand the law you might see what the issue is it isn't a sexual gender matter it is a legal matter but you seem to think that your way is the only way.

The attitude you adopt would certainly lead to you being labeled as '' A vexatious litigant. That would mean you were not able to bring an action or be involved in an action. in truth your comments are indeed harmful to those involved in the current surrogacy case and their attempted and disputable right to remove the child from Thailand, contrary to the mothers wishes, due to the fact it would appear she entered into a contract without knowing the full details of the contract i, .e. the legality of her actions under Thai law and the actual intention concerning the child's future along with that of the relationship of those involved in the surrogacy matter.

I do thank you for the highlighting of the word retrospective which is defined below for your edification and improving your understanding of the English language and furthering your education.

ret·ro·spec·tive

ˌadjective

1. 1.

   looking back on or dealing with past events or situations.

   "our survey was retrospective"

   synonyms: backdated, retroactive, ex post facto

   "the government introduced retrospective legislation"

Edited March 25, 2016 by shunter

[Khon Kaen Dave]

On the whole,i have nothing against gay men.Although,i have to say,i have no time for camp men,I find that camp man are not my cup of tea. I say this,because working in the big hotels in London and certain 'Gentle men's' clubs,i found the 'antics and behaviour of the Kitchen and room staff very embarrassing.

I don't blame couples for WANTING kids.But i find something odorous about a child being raised in a homosexual environment.It doesn't give the child enough space to form its own sexual identity. However i think that the surrogate mother is pulling a fast one here.Lying about being unaware that they were gay,refusing to hand the child over,and probably trying to up the ante at a later date.I think they were foolish to carry out the plan here thinking that this would not happen.This is a country where no one is to be trusted,especially where money is concerned.

[uthaithanirules]

You're not fooling me. Maybe you're fooling others. Again this wouldn't be an issue if the couple was straight. Honest people would admit that.

Did you mean retroactive?

But thats not really true though. They outlawed commercial surrogacy because of a few negative cases. One infamous one, which was huge news here of a guy that was a convicted pedo, chinese wife, twins from a surrogate, one had down syndrome, they left that one behind, only took the "normal" one

Anybody saying, oh but they had a contract....a contract for possesion of a human being...which can never be concrete.

Plenty if straight parents were left in the lurch at the same time, the laws got overturned.

This only made news because the surrogate found out they were gay. Doesnt mean there have not been straight couples in the same situation