Gay parents fight for custody with surrogate in Thailand

[whitemouse]

Oh, please.

More inflamed gobbledygook.

What an absurd post.

We're talking on a forum about an admittedly CONTROVERSIAL case.

We're not in court of law.

I never said I had any intentions or relevance as a witness to testify, and the fact this Shunter raises that in such a insinuating crafty way is simply beyond the pale.

We already know the surrogate woman has raised the gay issue in this case, so it's in this case regardless, from HER POV.

I've heard enough of such noise and silliness.

Welcome to my ignore list, Shunter. and GOOD RIDDANCE.

Yes Jingthing. Thank you for a perfect example of how gays use bullying tactics to get what they want. Shunter has pointed out to you time and againbthat this is a legal issue. And at the beginning you too were saying there is a contract, ie it is a legal issue.

But when Shunter argues that the legal points work against the couple, you switch to playing the gender card. And others chime in with homophobe accusations.

It is a very ugly tactic to use but not untypical when things are not going your way.

What bullying? How is making a rational argument bullying? The two parents bought an egg from a Thai donor, one of the men is biological father of the child. Surrogate entered a business contract, which she later refused to honor, after learning that the parents of the child are two gay men. Surrogate is not mother, in the eyes of the law neither is the Thai woman who sold the egg.

I see Jingthing arguing that surrogates decision to not sign the paper agreeing for child to leave Kingdom is breach of agreement, she isn't mother. The ONLY reason for possible negative outcome for the 2 parents is that they are gay men. And out of all this you somehow manage to construct that gays are bullies. Who's bullying who in this case? To me it is clear that it is surrogate, were the parents a straight couple who wouldn't even be talking here. Yet you claim gays people are somehow bullies.

Maybe I'm wrong, please point to the bullying parts!

[djjamie]

i know i would not of wanted 2 dads, instead of a Mum and Dad.

i can presume the same would be said for this poor kid when she grows up.

You would not have thought that way had you been born with gay parents. Making that type of statement in retrospective is lame.

Coming back to the real issue here, it's a combination of dodgy laws open to interpretation and the interpretation of one judge.

We all have to respect other views even if we think they are misguided.

I love having a mum and dad, but had I grown up with two dads I would have a differing opinion.

We are product of our environment. Full stop.

[whitemouse]

Whatever the outcome of this case it's clear THIS baby is better off with the Spanish-American couple.

And you know this based on what????

Based on fact that they are being parents right now! They wanted a baby, that is a strong sign child will have loving parents. But that isn't the issue here even, topic is about legal standing.

I hope the parents win the case and return to Europe as a family. Imagine the stress these guys go through right now, for past year or so, knowing any time some people walk in, and take their child. Must be the saddest thing any parent to go through.

[Jingthing]

I guess it might drag on for years and the couple may have to abandon their effort based on -- justice delayed is justice denied.

I wonder how many people would have lasted as long as they have, given Thailand's interesting VISA laws.

[Johnniey]

Strange in a country very tolerant towards homosexuality.

More likely the mother just became attached to the child and wanted to keep it, along with the money.

I think this article can better explain the difference between tolerance and acceptance in Thailand.

http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/gay-dads/

If she's become attached to the baby, fair enough. It's a hard one. If she just wants more money, or believes gays shouldn't be allowed to have children, she's a pretty deplorable/ignorant human being.

OMG what's the world coming to if someone who thinks gays shouldn't be allowed to have children, is considered deplorable or ignorant.

Simple law of nature - gays can't have kids. If they want kids they should find an opposite sex partner.

[lkv]

OMG what's the world coming to if someone who thinks gays shouldn't be allowed to have children, is considered deplorable or ignorant.

Simple law of nature - gays can't have kids. If they want kids they should find an opposite sex partner.

Yes we know. That's exactly what they've done, went to the opposite sex, they just got the wrong woman.

[Jingthing]

OMG what's the world coming to if someone who thinks gays shouldn't be allowed to have children, is considered deplorable or ignorant.

Simple law of nature - gays can't have kids. If they want kids they should find an opposite sex partner.

Yes we know. That's exactly what they've done, went to the opposite sex, they just got the wrong woman.

Lesbians can use turkey basters ... they're the lucky ones.

Anti-gay bigots may be straight but often they don't think straight. Like they want gay men to marry women? So both are unhappy?!?

Would you want your straight daughter or sister to marry a gay man? Duh!

[uthaithanirules]

I'll just add one more (often unspoken) point, about the whole gay parenting thing.

Something which didnt really register with me until after a spent a ceratin amount of time on Thailand.

Just because a couple like this are both the same sex, even if one or both are the campiest or most effeminate guys on the planet.....still doesnt actually mean they are gay

For those that love instantly pulling out the homophobia card for anyone that wants to question that union, or their long term intentions

Ladyboys or gay escorts that spend most of their working time with men, but have a girlfriend at home. Next time you are chatting with a bargirl, ask her how many time a gay guy or "gay" male couple use her services

I doubt the surrogate in question was a bargirl, but many in the business, and thus any friends they hang out with, are more wary of the "truth"

Some of these guys arent gay to begin with, or ones gay and the partner just prefers not to put up with a woman relationship wise

[Jingthing]

The above rather bizarre post has zilch to do with this topic. Many GLBT people are in opposite sex marriages. To be in the closet. So what?

The thing is that GLBT people are stigmatized in most of the world. So going as far as entering a same sex marriage would strongly indicate that the parties are into each other. I can imagine other motivations such as a companionship friendship economic based marriage for all kinds of people.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Jingthing

[lkv]

Yeah, I may have worded my previous post incorrectly when I said they got the wrong woman. I meant they signed a contract with the wrong woman.

What's said in that "bizarre" post of uthaithanirules is actually a common misconception.

Edited March 28, 2016 by lkv

[jak2002003]

What a mess people get themselves into.... and all for selfish reasons. I think surrogacy is wrong.. and it should be illegal.

There are so many children needing to be adopted.... why not adopt?

As for them being gay or straight it does not matter. True love is what is the most important thing. There are plenty of straight parents that should not be allowed to have children, the way they treat them.

And, what couples do in their bedroom is no ones business apart from theirs... and straight people get up to just as much kinky stuff as gays!!!

I feel sorry for everyone in this case.. I think the surrogate mother should stick to her agreement.

[Jingthing]

Yeah it's a mess and it won't happen again in Thailand as the law has changed.

But clearly the best resolution for this incident is for the family to be let go with THEIR baby.

[bobbymack]

I have come across these cases before with Thai surrogates and invariably it is all about the money. Now that the baby is born and the couple have become attached to the baby, the Thai decides it is time to increase the money stakes.

[Jingthing]

I have come across these cases before with Thai surrogates and invariably it is all about the money. Now that the baby is born and the couple have become attached to the baby, the Thai decides it is time to increase the money stakes.

Perhaps but not sure that is much more to be milked. Imagine the expense of having to abandon your real life for so long plus the legal expenses.

[uthaithanirules]

The above rather bizarre post has zilch to do with this topic. Many GLBT people are in opposite sex marriages. To be in the closet. So what?

The thing is that GLBT people are stigmatized in most of the world. So going as far as entering a same sex marriage would strongly indicate that the parties are into each other. I can imagine other motivations such as a companionship friendship economic based marriage for all kinds of people.

Stigmatized in what way?, relative to whom, stigmatized by whom?

The wealthy gay male american couple have life harder than all thais, most thais, only GLBT thais, burmese / cambodian labourers?

Going as far as entering a same sex marriage strongly indicates ...what exactly? You there watching their every move 24/7, could you ever really be sure of anything?

A man and a woman going as far as entering into an opposite sex marriage would strongly indicate what exactly? No one on the outside would have any idea, either one of those two marrying sometimes dont

What's said in that "bizarre" post of uthaithanirules is actually a common misconception.

What common misconception? People are always what they say they are, and we should always believe them, people never lie because they never have anything to hide?

Or put it another way; Prove they are Gay.

Which is not exactly relevant to the case, but it is for those who are going to claim its only happening because they are gay.

[Jingthing]

Doubling down on the off topic and BIZARRE.

Replying to silly baiting irrelevant questions?

Prove that they're gay?

They're two men who are MARRIED, dude.

You want butt sex pics? Is that it?

The craziness on this forum sometimes still surprises.

Life's too short for such NOISE.

Ignore list time.

To people who are not tripping off the deep end and taking idiocies like prove they're gay seriously, the REASON the gay thing matters to THIS CASE is that the surrogate woman has made it an issue in citing that as a reason she doesn't want this SAME SEX MARRIED couple to have the baby that she has no relation to.

Also, she claims she wasn't informed it was for a same sex married couple. The father claims she was informed. COMPLICATED by the fact that same sex marriage is ILLEGAL in Thailand so of course the contract was made with a SINGLE MAN as this legally married couple could not enter into a contract that way in Thailand, as they are SAME SEX.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Jingthing

[Yunla]

Oh jeez. This couple didn't seek to be public figures. That was forced on them by this situation.

I completely agree.

However my point was that they are now public figures, and if they did lose this case, they have a platform and they could use for a very good cause by promoting adoption.

I was quite clear about this in my post. I never implied they had been seeking celebrity status, only that they now have a platform by accident.

I find your suggestion in bad taste and ridiculous actually. It's all about your agenda and nothing to do with them. They already have two children and doing all they can to keep the youngest. Focus on that please.

I don't see what is "bad taste" about me saying "if they lose the case." I'm not saying that I hope they lose the case. I think you might be able to get some traction if I were actually saying that these people are bad, or I hope they lose the kid, I don't think they should be allowed to adopt, etc. . I don't think they are bad and I have no say in the legal trial anyway.

I honestly am confused about the legal issues, because the law has changed, and also the woman has changed her mind, and I am not a legal expert. I don't know the woman personally, so I cannot really comment on the various slurs levelled against her in this thread. I think it is sad that a kid is being put in the middle by this situation.

I don't have an agenda. I just posted a very friendly comment about how, as sad as they would feel if they lost the case, they could use the platform to promote something very good in the world, adoption. This is what I would do, hence this is what I posted. It is not an agenda, it is an opinion.

By the way, my best friend in New York, her gay brother and his partner have adopted. They are very happy. The kid is especially happy as she now feels like a real child with a real home and caring family, as opposed to how she was feeling before ; like an unwanted statistic.

[Jingthing]

This is their second child from surrogacy. The first time obviously worked out much more smoothly.

This couple likes surrogacy.

DEAL WITH IT.

It is your agenda that you're projecting on other people.

It's their business and of course in retrospect if they needed surrogacy, Nepal would have been better, that is, if it's still legal there for a single male foreigner to do that there as I think there is the same problem with non-recognition of same sex marriage there.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Jingthing

[Yunla]

What this couple does is their decision, public figures or not. You don't like surrogacy, you prefer adoption, understood, maybe so do I. But this case isn't about about what you and I prefer, our preferences and beliefs have NOTHING to do with it!

Why on Earth do you think this couple should suddenly start talking about, and promoting adoption? They are in a legal battle to keep their child, how does adoption enter this? How about we include discussing water shortages in the North then as well?

Oh jeez. This couple didn't seek to be public figures. That was forced on them by this situation.

I completely agree.

However my point was that they are now public figures, and if they did lose this case, they have a platform and they could use for a very good cause by promoting adoption.

I was quite clear about this in my post. I never implied they had been seeking celebrity status, only that they now have a platform by accident.

I would urge you to read my posts before replying to them. I did not suggest they should adopt during this legal battle. Only that if they lose and have no other way, they could turn a loss into something positive. It was only a small casual comment, until it got pounced on.

From where I'm standing this legal situation is confusing, because of changes to laws and the mother changing her mind, also the relatively short history of legal cases regarding this type of arrangement. So I do not feel confident to really say what the legal outcome will be.

"Our preferences have nothing to do with it" on which we agree, however I was not posting a preference, only an opinion, which is that in a worst case scenario, something good could still be salvaged. I thought I was being quite nice and sensible and friendly too.

[lkv]

I'll just add one more (often unspoken) point, about the whole gay parenting thing.

Something which didnt really register with me until after a spent a ceratin amount of time on Thailand.

Just because a couple like this are both the same sex, even if one or both are the campiest or most effeminate guys on the planet.....still doesnt actually mean they are gay

For those that love instantly pulling out the homophobia card for anyone that wants to question that union, or their long term intentions

Ladyboys or gay escorts that spend most of their working time with men, but have a girlfriend at home. Next time you are chatting with a bargirl, ask her how many time a gay guy or "gay" male couple use her services

I doubt the surrogate in question was a bargirl, but many in the business, and thus any friends they hang out with, are more wary of the "truth"

Some of these guys arent gay to begin with, or ones gay and the partner just prefers not to put up with a woman relationship wise

What was bizarre about your post above was your view on the matter.

It's a common view shared by some people that have never interacted with a gay person nor do they have any gay friends.

Edited March 28, 2016 by lkv

[samran]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

I don't think I've ever read a more ignorant post on this forum.

Giver - taker ??? Really... These are your issues with this case?

Is it really important who takes the young girl to school when the time comes?

A loving and environment environment is all that's required... I worry more for the child of ignorant, bigoted parents.

This child may face battles, but none more than many other children... For example those of mixed marriages, single parent families, children born into economic hardship, alcoholic parents....etc etc.... Perhaps some kids may face the affliction of an incredibly ignorant and brainless parent.... Did you have a child lostinissan?

It is you that is being ignorant. Marriage and parenthood is for men and women. That poor kid will get bullied at school for having same sex parents and the selfish "parents" don't seem to care about that, as long as they have their cute little Asian "toy". The whole thing rightly turns my stomach. Let's hope the judge throws the case out and the child either stays with the mother or gets adopted by a man and a woman. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

What a standup person you are. Only thinking of the child.

Hope you aren't a real teacher...actually betting you aren't a real teacher!!!

[Patsycat]

They were in court today or yesterday.

I read the "translated version" on their Facebook and it seems that everything seems in their court.

I don't read thai and google translate is a bit offy. But from what i understand the next court date is 26th of April.

If you look at the facebook page - the daddies seem quite happy. So i hope that means an end to this silly stupid saga.

And Carmen can go home with her parents and brother and get on with her life.

[Patsycat]

To add to this thread.

It angers me that so many so called "men" come onto this thread and put down a loving couple who have done everything for their child over a yeear,

Loved her, etc. Brought her up, clothed fed and loved her. And you still call them child trafficers? Given up their jobs, their livelihood every thing for that little gir.

And the others, oh they can adopt another one? <deleted>, that is their child.

Whether you like it or not.

That woman did not even turn up in court yesterday to claim Carmen as hers... Jeez, if i had the money i would get Carmen home.

And if a heterosexual couple had the same problem, i would be right behind them too.

It is their baby. And if you look at the photos Carmen is one very happy baby.

Gladly, she does not know what is going on.

[Patsycat]

Teacherpaul,

Are you are a real teacher. Or a pretend one. I have homosexual couple friends since twenty years whose children did good at school.

No bullying. In fact, it made them great adults. Perhaps you need to get out of your dusty books and see reality.

That it is not always mummy and daddy. It may be mummy and mummy, or daddy and daddy, or mummy and daddy and mummy.

Kids survive. And all they need is love.

Which this couple have shown threefold.

[Patsycat]

Carmen has started to walk

https://youtu.be/SoAxmyfkUFs

[greenchair]

This little girl is going to be raised in Spain by Adam and Steve with able as a side kick. The picture above is sick in itself and borders on child pornography. Once this child leaves thailand , there will be no checks and follow ups to see if she is ok as there would be to gay and adoptive couples in the America. All the mother wanted was the right to follow up on the child's well being such as letters, photos and an occasional visit. She was worried about the child being raised with 3 males.

What are they running from.

[richard_smith237]

This little girl is going to be raised in Spain by Adam and Steve with able as a side kick. The picture above is sick in itself and borders on child pornography. Once this child leaves thailand , there will be no checks and follow ups to see if she is ok as there would be to gay and adoptive couples in the America. All the mother wanted was the right to follow up on the child's well being such as letters, photos and an occasional visit. She was worried about the child being raised with 3 males.

What are they running from.

'Borders on child pornography'??? Where do you get these most idiotic, unintelligent and quite frankly moronic ideas from???

The non biological surrogate agreed to have a blastesized egg (from another egg donor) inseminated, signed a contract and received payment for her part in carrying the child through pregnancy.

The surrogate signed a contract, has no genetic ties to the child and for the well balanced of mind appears to have no rights in this matter whatsoever... This is a situation of 'the world gone mad'... Where common sense and decency have played second fiddle to bigotry of some, the greed of the surrogate and the weakness in those of decision making positions for allowing this to drag on.

Had the parent and his husband been a heterosexual couple I'm sure many of the bigoted haters would have a different opinion, the outcome in favor of the genetic parent (and partner) would have been much swifter.

[greenchair]

This little girl is going to be raised in Spain by Adam and Steve with able as a side kick. The picture above is sick in itself and borders on child pornography. Once this child leaves thailand , there will be no checks and follow ups to see if she is ok as there would be to gay and adoptive couples in the America. All the mother wanted was the right to follow up on the child's well being such as letters, photos and an occasional visit. She was worried about the child being raised with 3 males.

What are they running from.

'Borders on child pornography'??? Where do you get these most idiotic, unintelligent and quite frankly moronic ideas from???

The non biological surrogate agreed to have a blastesized egg (from another egg donor) inseminated, signed a contract and received payment for her part in carrying the child through pregnancy.

The surrogate signed a contract, has no genetic ties to the child and for the well balanced of mind appears to have no rights in this matter whatsoever... This is a situation of 'the world gone mad'... Where common sense and decency have played second fiddle to bigotry of some, the greed of the surrogate and the weakness in those of decision making positions for allowing this to drag on.

Had the parent and his husband been a heterosexual couple I'm sure many of the bigoted haters would have a different opinion, the outcome in favor of the genetic parent (and partner) would have been much swifter.

1.look up the definition of birthmother, it says the woman who births a child. Nothing to do with egg or sperm ownership.

2. She tried to give the money back and wanted no part of it.

3. She was ok for them to take the baby girl, but wanted assurance the child was not going to be abused. Such as knowledge of where the girl would stay, occasional letters and photos to show the child was safe.

4.she was told her child would go to a nice couple from America.

She was not told until the day of signing papers that the child would be raised in an unknown location in Spain by two sexual deviants and an indian brother, with no motherly care.

5.if she knew these details she would never have agreed.

She was scammed. She is Buddhist and does not believe in gay marriage. That is her right.

[Jingthing]

Homophobia on parade.

[richard_smith237]

This little girl is going to be raised in Spain by Adam and Steve with able as a side kick. The picture above is sick in itself and borders on child pornography. Once this child leaves thailand , there will be no checks and follow ups to see if she is ok as there would be to gay and adoptive couples in the America. All the mother wanted was the right to follow up on the child's well being such as letters, photos and an occasional visit. She was worried about the child being raised with 3 males.

What are they running from.

'Borders on child pornography'??? Where do you get these most idiotic, unintelligent and quite frankly moronic ideas from???

The non biological surrogate agreed to have a blastesized egg (from another egg donor) inseminated, signed a contract and received payment for her part in carrying the child through pregnancy.

The surrogate signed a contract, has no genetic ties to the child and for the well balanced of mind appears to have no rights in this matter whatsoever... This is a situation of 'the world gone mad'... Where common sense and decency have played second fiddle to bigotry of some, the greed of the surrogate and the weakness in those of decision making positions for allowing this to drag on.

Had the parent and his husband been a heterosexual couple I'm sure many of the bigoted haters would have a different opinion, the outcome in favor of the genetic parent (and partner) would have been much swifter.

1.look up the definition of birthmother, it says the woman who births a child. Nothing to do with egg or sperm ownership.

2. She tried to give the money back and wanted no part of it.

3. She was ok for them to take the baby girl, but wanted assurance the child was not going to be abused. Such as knowledge of where the girl would stay, occasional letters and photos to show the child was safe.

4.she was told her child would go to a nice couple from America.

She was not told until the day of signing papers that the child would be raised in an unknown location in Spain by two sexual deviants and an indian brother, with no motherly care.

5.if she knew these details she would never have agreed.

She was scammed. She is Buddhist and does not believe in gay marriage. That is her right.

I agree with one point you have made... "She is Buddhist and does not beleive in gay marriage. That is her right"

Yes... That is her only right in this case, she has a right to beleive what she wants. She signed all other rights away when she agreed to surrogacy.

As for any of the rest of your comments - with your "two sexual deviants and an Indian brother" comment you have shown that you are so blinded and bias, bigotry and racism that you are simply unable to recognise educated and intellectual balance.

I do feel for the surrogate mother - but with the exception of the egg donor the Bilogical father is the only biological tie Carmen has to this world.

---------

It does appear that this issue has polaraised discussion - It amazes me how in these supposedly civilised modern times that people can allow such bigotry and hate into their lives.

With regards to commens on Surrogacy being selfish, when adoption is available... I guess some people can never know how they would feel and can only choose judge others from a distance.

Example: My Child was born with the assistance of IVF - Adoption was a future possibility, as was surrogacy, thus these thoghts had entered my mind under close to realisitic circumstances before this debate arose.

However, It never came to it so I can't and never will judge someone who chooses surrogacy before adoption.

I suspect many of the same people might even go as far as suggesting that couples who naturally conceive and have their own child are being selfish when there are children ready for adoption - but I suspect these 'thinkers' never really place themselves in the situation instead prefering to pass judgement from on high and distance.