Zero Dollar tours damage Thai tourism industry

[torpedo1970]

Tantrums

Because being a thief and a scam artist is a protected profession that is reserved for the Thai's only....

[craigt3365]

Complete BS and spin. Hotels get paid, Food providers get paid, Bus companies get paid.

That said every service provider has prices ground to the nub by hard negotiating package

tour operators, but money is changing hands. Nobody is upsold when they arrive. The

Chinese are way to cheap. The real problem is the Chinese vacation is a 3-4 day junket

not a 3-4 week epic adventure. TAT numbers are inflated by tourists that stay such a

short time it takes 5-6 Chinese tourists to equal a European tourist and probably a 100

Chinese tourists to equal a retired ex-pat. As they have paid for a package, food and all

they spend little except for shopping. The only issue is the 30-40 % shopping kickback

now goes to the Chinese tour operator and not the tuk-tuk/ taxi mafia or local tour

companies and Thais are upset. I have no sympathy.

If zero dollar tours aren't bad, why has China banned them?

http://www.chinacontact.org/en/chinas-new-tourism-law/

The most concerned are obviously tourism operators which will have to review and adapt their offers so as to abide this new law and particularly Article 35 which states: “Travel agencies are prohibited from organizing tourism activities and luring tourists with unreasonably low prices, or getting illegitimate gains such as rebates by arranging shopping or providing tourism services that requires additional payment.” Their first observation is that such change as the ban of “zero-dollar tour” where they rely on commissions to make their profit, will compel them to increase their prices up to 80%, thus making customers think twice before buying.

[craigt3365]

I think the owner of Pegas is a Turk, not a Russian. That is what somebody I know who does business with Pegas told me. If I am right I will take full credit, if I am wrong it was the idiot who told me.

That's what I also thought, as the manager for this area is from Turkey. But, the company has HQ in Moscow. Interesting....

[Dumbastheycome]

Thais and numbers usually don't add up, 305 billion Baht????

Lets assume that the package they buy is 500 US$, that would mean that about 17.4 million tourists would be fooled by these dodgy tour operators!

The package is the budget bit. It is the added "after cost" that is the issue. Perhaps as much/little as 3 times the original package?

[bkkcanuck8]

CP Group, one of Thailand's richest and powerful companies, benefit greatly from these groups as the 7-Eleven seems to be a compulsory stop for most of the tour buses.

You also see a number of these group members eating street food. They often have one of their four or five days free so do actually venture out alone occasionally!

As others have pointed out, most of the hotels they stay in are Thai-owned and they don't sell their rooms at a loss, though from what I've heard, the profit margin is pretty small but in Phuket, for example, these hotels now get year-round trade from the Chinese.

Money does get into the Thai economy, just not as much as the Eurpopeans used to contribute.

If Thailand does not benefit from the tourism (or not enough to offset damage) then there is no reason for them to welcome that tourism. When you have tourists visiting places (often same places) it puts pressure on those sites - and too many visitors do damage historical or natural sites.... Tourism is only worth it -- if it brings in money to that economy... The Zero Dollar tourism is just not worth that.

[Thaidream]

Thailand is destroying its tourism. Just look at Pattaya and Phuket. Way overbuilt and dirty water. The lack of any real planning is evident. Bangkok is becoming like New York, London and any other Western city. Street vendors are being evicted every day so more hotels and malls can be built. Western tourists are voting with their feet. They are going elsewhere. The Russians don't come as much due to economic reasons. What's left is the Chinese who come on short tours- spend little- money and create chaos. Throw in the rising cost of coming to Thailand with its loss of cultural identity and if nothing changes- tourism numbers will begin to reverse.

[bkkrooftop]

china loves tours and making $ for their own. hard to stop them if u have ever had the opportunity to see in action. not interested in laws/taxes makes them hard to compete with.

Edited April 12, 2016 by bkkrooftop

[geisha]

The problem with mass tourism is the very low margin of profit generated by millions of low cost tourists. Easy to see why. The Thai owned businesses made contracts with foreign ( Chinese, Russian , Thomas cook ,Tui, etc) tour companies at rock bottom prices. Being not very business minded , they probably only saw the payment at the end of one year, and the money is probably paid in advance. This is a lack of experience . All businesses are there to make money. This has led to airports, airlines, roads,hotels being over run by cheap tourists who do not generally spend money with the small local businesses.As someone said, Pattaya , Phuket, Bangkok Chiang Mai, have been completed ruined due to lack of city planning, the damage is done. Totally suffocated by polluting tour buses, these places have become a nightmare. Now bring in the higher end tourists who have bought expensive tours,quality individual tourists , and young world travellers that fill up the small hotels, street restaurants and sights,do you really think they enjoy finding their dream holiday swarming and over run by these now unwanted people and unhappy Thais ? In Phuket or other small beach towns, you can hardly cross the road anymore ! Lack of planning has ruined the paradise Thailand once was for tourists.

[dcnx]

In the early 2000's, not so long ago... back when the number of tourists to Thailand was around 8 million and growing year on year at double digits, and there were no 5 star hotels in Chiang Mai ... and the future was clear. TAT did nothing, which is understandable because TAT is not the dept responsible for tourism in country, but rather promoting tourism abroad. The department of Sports and Tourism, did nothing either.

The greatest % contribution to tourism dollars came from MICE - meetings, conventions, exhibitions, and expositions. At the same time, Singapore was investing heavily in this sector as well as casinos and more. This segment of the tourism sector has grown in Thailand since then, but not nearly at the same rate as other segments. This segment spends more per day than any other targeted segment. Wouldn't that be the definition of quality tourist?

Data from TAT has always been suspect - it is from the TM-7 cards at the airport, where everybody tells the truth. Japanese who come here for business on a tourist visa only to spend their time doing business are counted as tourists. Same for Malaysians. Malaysia has been the largest tourist visitor to Thailand since the beginning of time until around 2007. I mention Chiang mai as it is perhaps the easiest to see as an example of how tourism affects Thailand. How many 5 star hotels are there now?

This begs another question: What is the status of star rating system in Thailand? Is it using an internationally accredited system? Are there checks? Again with Chiang mai... what happened to the Holiday Inn? The Westin? Why did they lose their brand names? The answer is that the Brand company stripped it from the management of the property because they could not maintain standards.

While Chiang mai officials knew there were plans for 6 high end properties under construction or slated to be built back in 2004, did they invest in even a decent Information Booth at the airport? Does Chiang Mai have a decent tourism Information Booth in the arrival lounge? Someone put one there back in 2004 and it was hilarious and sad. The kids inside could not understand simple English. How are the taxis doing? Are the meters running? How about the red buses in CM? Why has it been impossible to get rid of them or decrease them? If you want to draw people for those 5 star (and 4 star etc.) properties do you really expect them to hop on a red songtaew?

Regarding Farang ... the number who come here for business or longer stays but are counted as tourists is also inflating tourist figures. The remaining contributors to tourism figures come from places like Russia, Vietnam, and China. These nationalities are probably true tourists for the most part, and are not spending nearly the figure per head per day that MICE folks spend. More people spending less per day is not the direction one wants to go. Whether the country has the ability to direct policy to address this is obvious.

As long as Thailand continues to let tourism develop with no planning at all it will always develop into the mess that is CM today, and the mess that is Pattaya, and Phuket downtown, and so on and on and on. Same with Bangkok. No city planning leads to the streets in the mess they are today.

Motorcades continue to work very well. The police are effective at shutting off roads and moving VIP around town. So there is a segment that is well served and always will be. Thai banks are a joke around the world, but monopolies here. The newspapers are printing what they want people to know, including the article referenced above, not the deeper story, not the reality.

Thais do not seem to want to make things better

In addition to not wanting to make things better, I don't think they know how.

You are talking about people who can literally have a family picnic next to a huge pile of garbage covered with insects, and not blink and eye. You are talking about people, who for the most part, sleep in tiny hot boxes with the unmatching insides purchased from Lotus and Big C, and so on. Many are hoarders. This is the majority of Thailand. Such people don't care nor know how to make anything better. They can't even maintain things. Thailand has a third world mentality even if it is no longer considered a third world country.

[LomSak27]

Excellent work to NOT Mention in print, even if the pic is a dead giveaway, that this is a problem with, yes you guessed it CHINESE TOURISM in particular.

You can talk about it but CANNOT be specific, that is a no no. They decided to blame western tourism for all and assorted ills to the Kingdom. Disrespecting Thailand pics and articles are a staple over at Manager online. Using them as a populist political device in these fractious times was such a winner the powers that be could not stop using it, even when Euro numbers began flagging. Their answer .. Lets not stop it, lets just get some new tourists .. , and so the Chinese were ticketed to replace those disrespecting Euro touros.

Unfortunately the populace had been so encouraged, so programmed to be enraged about DISRESPECT that the Chinese tourists got targeted too, oh my! The other shoe dropping is the fact that Chinese tourists who come are likely to spend the least. Yep all those statistics that TAT churned out, are now are revealed to be bull. No surprise there

Well its always something

Troll Team Assemble.... It is time for some heavy heavy deflection. LETS GO!

[LomSak27]

Troll Team ?!

Must be off to the Ukraine

[rosst]

Well well well.. what did you expect ???

TAT did you not want this.... you planned for it , you got it and now you are complaining ????

You set your targets at achieving a record level of tourist numbers and this has been facilitated by planeloads of Chinese and Russians coming in on prepaid overseas carrier flights with accommodation pre booked and paid overseas , prepaid meals and shopping deals that link back to the overseas organisers....

What did you expect when your definitive target measure has been simple number of tourists........no measure of economic value added in this whatsoever

Whats that i hear ..... Ohh you want planeloads of value adding tourists.........ahhhh well that involves a different marketing strategy and plan....

Sometimes to those who dont think about cause and reaction the desired result may not actually be what was wanted, once achieved..... in a country essentially bereft of causative critical analysis thinking it is no wonder that we now see lament that the high tourist numbers add very little to the tourism bottom line.... reap what you sow TAT and unfortunately allot of the seeds you planted are very low yielding indeed

Well, nobody is surprised about this except TAT the Chinese are masters at retaining every dime and delivering a shoddy product which IS damaging Thai tourism.

I am now staying in the Philippines most of the time due to the less than welcoming Thai administration and only visiting Thailand once a year for a couple of months.

Thai Immigration need to be looking at rewarding the foreigners who are wanted by making life easier as well as making life tougher for the less desirable elements.

[Balance]

In the early 2000's, not so long ago... back when the number of tourists to Thailand was around 8 million and growing year on year at double digits, and there were no 5 star hotels in Chiang Mai ... and the future was clear. TAT did nothing, which is understandable because TAT is not the dept responsible for tourism in country, but rather promoting tourism abroad. The department of Sports and Tourism, did nothing either.

The greatest % contribution to tourism dollars came from MICE - meetings, conventions, exhibitions, and expositions. At the same time, Singapore was investing heavily in this sector as well as casinos and more. This segment of the tourism sector has grown in Thailand since then, but not nearly at the same rate as other segments. This segment spends more per day than any other targeted segment. Wouldn't that be the definition of quality tourist?

Data from TAT has always been suspect - it is from the TM-7 cards at the airport, where everybody tells the truth. Japanese who come here for business on a tourist visa only to spend their time doing business are counted as tourists. Same for Malaysians. Malaysia has been the largest tourist visitor to Thailand since the beginning of time until around 2007. I mention Chiang mai as it is perhaps the easiest to see as an example of how tourism affects Thailand. How many 5 star hotels are there now?

This begs another question: What is the status of star rating system in Thailand? Is it using an internationally accredited system? Are there checks? Again with Chiang mai... what happened to the Holiday Inn? The Westin? Why did they lose their brand names? The answer is that the Brand company stripped it from the management of the property because they could not maintain standards.

While Chiang mai officials knew there were plans for 6 high end properties under construction or slated to be built back in 2004, did they invest in even a decent Information Booth at the airport? Does Chiang Mai have a decent tourism Information Booth in the arrival lounge? Someone put one there back in 2004 and it was hilarious and sad. The kids inside could not understand simple English. How are the taxis doing? Are the meters running? How about the red buses in CM? Why has it been impossible to get rid of them or decrease them? If you want to draw people for those 5 star (and 4 star etc.) properties do you really expect them to hop on a red songtaew?

Regarding Farang ... the number who come here for business or longer stays but are counted as tourists is also inflating tourist figures. The remaining contributors to tourism figures come from places like Russia, Vietnam, and China. These nationalities are probably true tourists for the most part, and are not spending nearly the figure per head per day that MICE folks spend. More people spending less per day is not the direction one wants to go. Whether the country has the ability to direct policy to address this is obvious.

As long as Thailand continues to let tourism develop with no planning at all it will always develop into the mess that is CM today, and the mess that is Pattaya, and Phuket downtown, and so on and on and on. Same with Bangkok. No city planning leads to the streets in the mess they are today.

Motorcades continue to work very well. The police are effective at shutting off roads and moving VIP around town. So there is a segment that is well served and always will be. Thai banks are a joke around the world, but monopolies here. The newspapers are printing what they want people to know, including the article referenced above, not the deeper story, not the reality.

Cooking performance numbers is suppose to be a fine art in Thailand. One of the problems is that there must be 4 or 5 agencies, departments, who are deep into the kitchen but they are different kitchens and there is no agreement as to what the final dish needs to look like or how much chilli to use. A word about backpackers: they are young, tend to be on a path to get an education and earn a decent living, and they love to travel. The point here is that it is a good bet that a high percentage of today's backpackers metamorphose into, yes, QUALITY TOURISTS. But, no one with any authority in Thailand has a clue what "the long game" means let alone how to play it.

I went by the Holliday Inn a couple of weeks ago on my way to the cosulate and had the same thoughts. But, coming back I saw that they took the big sign off the top of the building, shrunk it a bunch and put it back on the bottom front side. Maybe a cost savings on the tax businesses pay for the size of the signs.

[Plutojames88]

The reason this article was invented is also to serve as an excuse for the falling profits.

Much the same way they will blame westerners married to Thais as a loop hole for criminals to reside there.

The Zero spend , and tour operators "not Thai" and any other reason will be wheeled out.

Meanwhile Quietly the witnesses to their goings on are being muted.

Visas harder to get- ""good guys in Bad guys out" Journalist visas- Marriage - Tourists hitches.

Claims we are interfering and don't "understand " when international concerns are raised.

Eventually you may see Thais Themselves believe a lot of this.

Were sanctions ever imposed the back lash against westerners may be significant.

As we have already seen demonstrations and flag burnings outside US embassies .

The press releases are most for domestic consumption they are well aware we understand .

Know why economic falls occur.

They actually are deliberately chasing slowly westerners away.

This talk of "rich westerners" and "quality tourists" is to smoke screen their movements towards the Chinese.

Many westerners are slowly preferring other options.

Only really the Long term Thailand people keep faith.

But their efforts are being crippled on purpose .

Made to feel unwelcome.

More hoops.

Threats of bans.

A day might come when its more acceptable to Thais to say "we don't need farangs "

Or "we don't want farangs"

And even "farangs should leave"

Consider the situation the politics .

And like the General you will conclude .

Thailand is a special case .

And its possible they will do as they wish long term.

And we are not going to be the "protesters within"

The populace are scared of them and we are the only witnesses left.

[Crossy]

Look at the date on (and in) this article http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/GG14Ae01.html

Think anything is really going to happen??

[craigt3365]

Look at the date on (and in) this article http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/GG14Ae01.html

Think anything is really going to happen??

Thai authorities have a knack at making promises and then never following through! LOL No wonder no one believes what they say...

[geriatrickid]

I have to disagree with your analysis that C M is a mess today because of tourism. It was a mess in 1974, long before the mass tourism scene, and is still the same mess. Thais do not seem to want to make things better, and perhaps that is because the money that should be invested in infrastructure goes elsewhere. Even when they do invest in infrastructure, they have the ability to make things worse, not better ie the Pattaya walkway has been a disaster. Also they have done nothing in 25 years to improve the traffic. Even the same broken pavements are in use today as in the early 90's.

BTW does anyone want Thailand to be a sanuk devoid expensive, boring hole like Singapore has become, which would be the result of the improvements that so many seem to desire on this forum website ( I do remember when there was a bit of fun to be had in Singapore, back in the 70's, alas no longer. )

Your comments are from the perspective of a person who was upset that his usual Pattaya location went from 600 baht to 800 baht (incl. breakfast) per night. You ignore the fact that in Thailand, wages, the general cost of living ,taxes etc. all increased. In any case, Singapore is not for people like you. I am not sorry that Singapore did away with its debauched sex market, cleaned up its lady boy affliction and removed slums and other vile blights from the city. Plenty of fun to be had in Singapore. It's just that you do not wish to pay a liveable wage to workers or to allow the people to live a good life where they are not subject to pollution, disease, and pestilence.

[jmccarty]

Excellent. When I was in the army, we had lots of cheap ways to holiday on the tax payer. MAChops, cheap bachelor NCO and officer quarters to stay in. I was highly qualified to help the world make their holiday decisions too. Maybe I should offer some military advice on this?

[ttthailand]

Perhaps the reason the Thais charge 10 times the price to foreigners at national parks is because if they didn't they would be over run with the Chinese tours. These tours try to package as many free and cheap places as possible. Anything that is really interesting they negotiate the price so low that it is sometimes less than half the Thai price. The tour companies however charge the fully price ++ to the tourists. A huge part of the money charged for some of these tours never leaves China.

Chinese put the Thais to shame as far as scamming goes.

[Tomtomtom69]

On the topic of tourism, it is interesting to ask:

If the contribution to a national economy were equal in $ terms, would you prefer that money into the economy be derived from visiting tourists or from citizens going abroad to work? I am thinking of the Philippines. Would it / could it have a different effect to the Thai economy? Would it be better? Worse?

I would say citizens going abroad to work. While Thailand does have some citizens in this category, as a percentage of the population it's much lower than Burmese, Cambodians, Filipinos and even Vietnamese.

Thailand mostly cares about tourist numbers, I don't think any other nation on Earth is as obsessed with tourism and in particular, mass, mass, mass tourism as Thailand is.

If this trend continues, 10 years from now tourists will be streaming into Thai moo baans taking pictures of the Somchais hanging out their laundry to dry!

[Arkady]

It's funny that the major general didn't mention whether Thailand is cooperating with other countries by stamping out zero dollar tours of Thais going to China and Japan. I believe there are plenty.

[dominique355]

It is a TAT policy to favor cheap-charlie-chinese tourist over quality-individual-tourist and the results become now visible for all (except perhaps TAT):

Zero dollar = zero income for Thailand

masses of herded Chinese tourist in "OA" bus convoys blocking streets and parkings

exodus of tourist willing to spend

But I guess the only thing that counts for the Authority is the number of people entering the country.

[bkkrooftop]

I dont know how you can stop this , but it is what it is. Someone gets a lot of $. Whats sad, is BKK is not what it was 5 yrs ago.. Same as Chiang Mai. Ultimately why I loved BKK is/was somehow it had transformed into a big city and kept its identity with smiling street vendors and all the other endemic things we dont experience in the west. It has begun to be just another city. Hopefully it can bounce back. Lotta hustle nowadays and not much of the mai bpen rai in bkk.. gotta get out of the . Is what it is, still love the place.. chinese are transforming these areas with their own $.. look at the owners of the newer luxury malls. about to open one up in bang kapi,, just what we need.

[Naam]

anybody who claims "zero dollar" possesses a wealth of economic zero idea

[luckyman]

Well well well.. what did you expect ???

TAT did you not want this.... you planned for it , you got it and now you are complaining ????

You set your targets at achieving a record level of tourist numbers and this has been facilitated by planeloads of Chinese and Russians coming in on prepaid overseas carrier flights with accommodation pre booked and paid overseas , prepaid meals and shopping deals that link back to the overseas organisers....

What did you expect when your definitive target measure has been simple number of tourists........no measure of economic value added in this whatsoever

Whats that i hear ..... Ohh you want planeloads of value adding tourists.........ahhhh well that involves a different marketing strategy and plan....

Sometimes to those who dont think about cause and reaction the desired result may not actually be what was wanted, once achieved..... in a country essentially bereft of causative critical analysis thinking it is no wonder that we now see lament that the high tourist numbers add very little to the tourism bottom line.... reap what you sow TAT and unfortunately allot of the seeds you planted are very low yielding indeed

Nice post, well written and spot on. Thnx 4 sharin', maybe some idiot at TAT reads it and follows ur lead !

[alanferdi]

Source: National News Bureau of Thailand.

Article type: idiotic.

Article description: "Where are the quality tourists"

It looks like some people have to get a taste of their own imagination. Chinese are like locusts....they eat everything around, loud mouthed, do not respect locals and have no manners. Its good to know that some idiots thought they would bring revenue. Get it straight

Chinese can never bargain they can take what you got and leave you with nothing..... those that can raise the GDP levels are Europeans, Australians, Americans and Canadians. They come as responsible individuals make up their own mind where to eat and drink. Not like the Chinese who have to follow a flag or else they might get lost, think about it.... The rest of the world is a gamble. Tourism will only thrive in businesses for locals and for the country if they continue to cater to these groups and protect them. No one wants a rip off..... so think and act. Even Bhutan has better Tourism values and packages that promote quality of life..... so look and learn

Edited April 17, 2016 by alanferdi

[thaibeachlovers]

Any country reliant on tourism that pushes out backpackers is foolish. Backpackers are often young University students who will someday be that quality tourist the country seeks to attract.

I've not read where Thailand is pushing out backpackers. Trying to move more upscale, yes. Trying to deal with zero cost tour groups, yes. But actively pushing out backpackers? Not really. Sure, some low end places frequented by backpackers have disappeared over the years, and replaced by up scale resorts. But that's what happens in developing countries like Thailand. Same thing in Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. More money to be made...

Do you go to the beach much?

Try finding a cheap backpacker place on Chaweng nowadays! Even Mae Nam is OTT expensive.

On Phangan, fast as the road and mains power reaches the beach they build the fancy AC rooms at fancy inflated prices. Bottle went long ago with the concrete monstrocity in the middle of the beach and the swimming pool, and Haad Khom was well on the way last time I stayed there.

[thaibeachlovers]

I dont know how you can stop this , but it is what it is. Someone gets a lot of $. Whats sad, is BKK is not what it was 5 yrs ago.. Same as Chiang Mai. Ultimately why I loved BKK is/was somehow it had transformed into a big city and kept its identity with smiling street vendors and all the other endemic things we dont experience in the west. It has begun to be just another city. Hopefully it can bounce back. Lotta hustle nowadays and not much of the mai bpen rai in bkk.. gotta get out of the . Is what it is, still love the place.. chinese are transforming these areas with their own $.. look at the owners of the newer luxury malls. about to open one up in bang kapi,, just what we need.

I like luxury malls though I don't buy anything in them. Best places to see hiso totty.

[Mudcrab]

It happened in Australia in the 1980's and 90's with the Japanese tourists.

It is happening now with the Chinese tourists. Chinese airlines, Chinese hotels, Chinese controlled tourist spots/factories/shops.

Tourists thinking they are getting a bargain then back to the hotel/airline and gone

.

Having said that, please note that this is the mass tourism market of the newly minted middle class.

There are still many "backpacker" types (from all over the world) doing their own thing - and that is very good. A lot of rural areas in Oz would collapse without them - lazy young Aussies simply won't do the work.

[craigt3365]

Any country reliant on tourism that pushes out backpackers is foolish. Backpackers are often young University students who will someday be that quality tourist the country seeks to attract.

I've not read where Thailand is pushing out backpackers. Trying to move more upscale, yes. Trying to deal with zero cost tour groups, yes. But actively pushing out backpackers? Not really. Sure, some low end places frequented by backpackers have disappeared over the years, and replaced by up scale resorts. But that's what happens in developing countries like Thailand. Same thing in Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. More money to be made...

Do you go to the beach much?

Try finding a cheap backpacker place on Chaweng nowadays! Even Mae Nam is OTT expensive.

On Phangan, fast as the road and mains power reaches the beach they build the fancy AC rooms at fancy inflated prices. Bottle went long ago with the concrete monstrocity in the middle of the beach and the swimming pool, and Haad Khom was well on the way last time I stayed there.

Typing this while sitting on the beach. I go to the beach all the time, and all over thailand. You are 100% correct. Reasonable places are getting harder and harder to find. Sadly. But can't blame the thai government for it. Progress. :-(