Kerry says Navy ship could have fired on Russian planes

[webfact]

Kerry says Navy ship could have fired on Russian planes
ALICIA A. CALDWELL, Associated Press

MIAMI (AP) — Under U.S. military rules of engagement, the Navy ship that Russian military jets buzzed in the Baltic Sea this week could have opened fire, Secretary of State John Kerry said Thursday.

The guided-missile destroyer USS Donald Cook reported that pairs of Russian Su-24 attack planes made numerous close-range passes on Monday and Tuesday. The planes appeared to be unarmed. On at least one occasion, an Su-24 came within an estimated 30 feet (9 meters) of the Cook, which was in international waters about 70 nautical miles from the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad.

The Cook did not respond except to unsuccessfully query the Russian pilots by radio.

In remarks to CNN Espanol, Kerry condemned the Russian actions and said that "under the rules of engagement" it "could have been a shoot-down."

In all cases, a military commander has the authority to defend his or her ship, plane or other unit. The commander is expected to use his or her best judgment to determine whether the ship faces an imminent threat.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the U.S. has raised its concerns through its military defense representative at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow.

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-04-15

[Gsxrnz]

Makes you wonder what the Murcans do when there's a Russian destroyer parked 70 miles off the coast of New York.

[HLover]

could have, would have, should have....yawn

[metisdead]

Off topic posts about a similar incident in 2014 have been removed as well as the replies. This topic is about an incident that occurred early this week.

[robblok]

I hope the hot heads in Russia and the US won't start a war, the US would not win and would be forced to give up much of its bases. The US would be technological superior but the sovjets are far more willing to take casualties. Just look at WW2, this would tip the advantage to Russia and the US would loose much of its foreign bases.

Probably would end in a draw with Russia scoring a tactical victory and taking over some bases of the US. US does not have the stomach to really go to war (nobody in their right mind would). Far easier to order your soldiers in a dictatorship (Russia) as a Democracy .. the US.

I guess that is why the US did not fire.. they know what would happen otherwise.

[mopar71]

Makes you wonder what the Murcans do when there's a Russian destroyer parked 70 miles off the coast of New York.

Does Russia even have a warship capable of going that far, let alone a destroyer?

[JHolmesJr]

I hope the hot heads in Russia and the US won't start a war, the US would not win and would be forced to give up much of its bases.

The US can't even get the measure of a bunch of muzzlim thugs …. the talk of taking on russia seems a bit premature.

[mopar71]

I hope the hot heads in Russia and the US won't start a war, the US would not win and would be forced to give up much of its bases. The US would be technological superior but the sovjets are far more willing to take casualties. Just look at WW2, this would tip the advantage to Russia and the US would loose much of its foreign bases.

Probably would end in a draw with Russia scoring a tactical victory and taking over some bases of the US. US does not have the stomach to really go to war (nobody in their right mind would). Far easier to order your soldiers in a dictatorship (Russia) as a Democracy .. the US.

I guess that is why the US did not fire.. they know what would happen otherwise.

Russia has never had a conventional offensive military worth a damn. It was their vast territory and rotten winters that stopped Napoleon and Hitler. When Stalin invaded tiny Finland before WWII the Finns kicked their butts. Even their WWII offense was driven by the Lend Lease aid from the US-Canada-UK.

The Russian navy is a complete joke except for maybe their subs...at least the ones that aren't serving as tombs on the bottom of the sea.

If not for nukes, Putin would have gone the way of Saddam and Qaddafi years ago...and it would have been easier. Just air drop cases of cheap vodka and wait for the conscripts to shoot each other.

Putin must be feeling pretty good about his chances of getting away with stunts like this. He knows he won't be challenged by Obama now nor any of the current candidates for president after the inauguration. Expect these flybys and airspace intrusions to only increase until there is a serious accident.

[slipperylobster]

Makes you wonder what the Murcans do when there's a Russian destroyer parked 70 miles off the coast of New York.

Not anything dumb like that. Russkies just always cruisin' for a bruisin'.

Darn lucky the skipper was in a good mood...and the sailors got a few souvenir videos/photos.

Edited April 15, 2016 by slipperylobster

[Suradit69]

I hope the hot heads in Russia and the US won't start a war, the US would not win and would be forced to give up much of its bases. The US would be technological superior but the sovjets are far more willing to take casualties. Just look at WW2, this would tip the advantage to Russia and the US would loose much of its foreign bases.

Probably would end in a draw with Russia scoring a tactical victory and taking over some bases of the US. US does not have the stomach to really go to war (nobody in their right mind would). Far easier to order your soldiers in a dictatorship (Russia) as a Democracy .. the US.

I guess that is why the US did not fire.. they know what would happen otherwise.

"The US would be technological superior but the sovjets are far more willing to take casualties. Just look at WW2"

I doubt very much that any "skirmish," let alone war, would be primarily waged with troops facing each other on the ground as they did to such a degree in WW2.

"Taking over" US bases would mean incursions into Japan, Australia, South Korea, etc. I don't think you've given a lot of thought to the scenario you've fabricated. Putin may be a loose cannon to some extent, but he's not totally gonzo.

You do realize that the "Sovjets" [sic] Union no longer exists?

[Scotwight]

Makes you wonder what the Murcans do when there's a Russian destroyer parked 70 miles off the coast of New York.

Not anything dumb like that. Russkies just always cruisin' for a bruisin'.

Darn lucky the skipper was in a good mood...and the sailors got a few souvenir videos/photos.

“Khibiny” is the newest complex for radioelectronic jamming of the enemy.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=588_1398932554

In 2014, the Russian state-run news media outlets ran stories that claimed that in April 2014 a Su-24 equipped with Khibiny had disabled the Aegis Combat System of the USS Donald Cook, a U.S. Navy Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer, then deployed in the Black Sea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khibiny_%28electronic_countermeasures_system%29

Edited April 15, 2016 by Scotwight

[Jingthing]

Putin wants an incident where the USA and Russia directly engage in that region because then he can justify invading "Nato protected" Baltic countries to his own people. He would easily win that and if he's going to do it, it will be before the USA election.

The USA and Russia are already in a proxy war. In this case the U.S. right wing is correct, Obama has shown weakness and a strong man dictator like Putin takes advantage, because that's the nature of that kind of beast.

I don't know if Putin has decided to invade or not yet, but you can sure he's thinking about it, dancing some dances, calculating the price of doing so.

It's not like something he hasn't done before in Georgia and Ukraine.

It will be interesting to see how these events influence the U.S. election.

Trump who I don't think will be nominated by the republicans, but might be, has shown an even softer tone towards Putin's aggression than Obama, and that's saying something.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[Baerboxer]

I hope the hot heads in Russia and the US won't start a war, the US would not win and would be forced to give up much of its bases.

The US can't even get the measure of a bunch of muzzlim thugs …. the talk of taking on russia seems a bit premature.

The Russkies didn't do so well against the Taliban either.

Now most of their old East European allies hate them, particularly those who the Red Army used for cannon fodder.

Turkey shot one of their vaunted fighters down easy enough and despite all his rhetoric and sabre rattling bully boy antics Putin restricted retaliation to sanctions.

They have China breathing down their necks and there's never been much love lost between the two.

If pushed comes to shove, and war did break out I sooner be with the Yanks than the Russkies.

[Baerboxer]

I hope the hot heads in Russia and the US won't start a war, the US would not win and would be forced to give up much of its bases. The US would be technological superior but the sovjets are far more willing to take casualties. Just look at WW2, this would tip the advantage to Russia and the US would loose much of its foreign bases.

Probably would end in a draw with Russia scoring a tactical victory and taking over some bases of the US. US does not have the stomach to really go to war (nobody in their right mind would). Far easier to order your soldiers in a dictatorship (Russia) as a Democracy .. the US.

I guess that is why the US did not fire.. they know what would happen otherwise.

Russia has never had a conventional offensive military worth a damn. It was their vast territory and rotten winters that stopped Napoleon and Hitler. When Stalin invaded tiny Finland before WWII the Finns kicked their butts. Even their WWII offense was driven by the Lend Lease aid from the US-Canada-UK.

The Russian navy is a complete joke except for maybe their subs...at least the ones that aren't serving as tombs on the bottom of the sea.

If not for nukes, Putin would have gone the way of Saddam and Qaddafi years ago...and it would have been easier. Just air drop cases of cheap vodka and wait for the conscripts to shoot each other.

Putin must be feeling pretty good about his chances of getting away with stunts like this. He knows he won't be challenged by Obama now nor any of the current candidates for president after the inauguration. Expect these flybys and airspace intrusions to only increase until there is a serious accident.

Fair point on their military capability. They got spanked by the Japs in 1905, performed dismally in WW1; got spanked by the Fins, performed dismally in WW11; relied on their weather, terrain and being supplied by the allies.

Sacrificing manpower (and womenpower) was their tactic.

Only now, they don't have the vast Soviet empire to conscript non Russian cannon fodder from.

Russian's are aggressively patriotic and pugnacious but like all bullies don't like to get a bloody nose.

[Ulic]

Well, I am just glad the Captain of the US destroyer understood it was just a couple of

Russian cowboy - jet jocks and not an attack. Things can spiral out of control quickly.

He is the guy that should get a medal for realizing it was just dick measuring contest.

No harm no foul as far as I am concerned. Both sides have massive egos.

[MiKT]

Makes you wonder what the Murcans do when there's a Russian destroyer parked 70 miles off the coast of New York.

Not anything dumb like that. Russkies just always cruisin' for a bruisin'.

Darn lucky the skipper was in a good mood...and the sailors got a few souvenir videos/photos.

“Khibiny” is the newest complex for radioelectronic jamming of the enemy.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=588_1398932554

In 2014, the Russian state-run news media outlets ran stories that claimed that in April 2014 a Su-24 equipped with Khibiny had disabled the Aegis Combat System of the USS Donald Cook, a U.S. Navy Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer, then deployed in the Black Sea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khibiny_%28electronic_countermeasures_system%29

Well, if even a Turkish F16 could easily shoot down a SU-24, it can't be much of an ECM system.

Sounds like wishful thinking on someone's, part and suicidal thinking if they rely on "Khibiny" to disable a US Destroyer.

These close flights are simply designed to enable them to pick up ECM emissions from the ship and try to analyse them to make things like Khibiny really work, but I expect the US ship would not be using all or any of their own jamming equipment as this would be exactly what the Russians wanted.

The US did not need Aegis, they were close enough to have been bought down by a 12 Bore!

[Jingthing]

Well, I am just glad the Captain of the US destroyer understood it was just a couple of

Russian cowboy - jet jocks and not an attack. Things can spiral out of control quickly.

He is the guy that should get a medal for realizing it was just dick measuring contest.

No harm no foul as far as I am concerned. Both sides have massive egos.

Sure, but NEXT TIME Putin will push things a little farther. You can bet there will be a next time.

Putin is doing a dance.

Nobody can claim his hands are small.

[Kiwiken]

1905 a Tsarist fleet destroyed at Tsushima by the Japanese, 1940 The Fins inflicted a huge defeat on the Soviet Armies in the Winter War, 1941 the Germans attacked a Soviet Union in the middle of a re equipping program with new Officers coming on stream. Before US and British aid arrived they stopped the Germans at Moscow. Yes lend lease helped but a revitalised Soviet army bled the Germans dry. Now after years of neglect the Russians are reequipped. Maybe they are not as well equipped as the USA do not under estimate your adversary. National pride is one thing. Nationalistic arrogance is another.

[Jingthing]

Russia is in a superior military position in the Baltic region.

[silent]

Makes you wonder what the Murcans do when there's a Russian destroyer parked 70 miles off the coast of New York.

Does Russia even have a warship capable of going that far, let alone a destroyer?

What if though?

[Kiwiken]

The statement said that Kerry said by US rules of engagement but does that conflict with International rules of engagement?

[Scotwight]

1905 a Tsarist fleet destroyed at Tsushima by the Japanese, 1940 The Fins inflicted a huge defeat on the Soviet Armies in the Winter War, 1941 the Germans attacked a Soviet Union in the middle of a re equipping program with new Officers coming on stream. Before US and British aid arrived they stopped the Germans at Moscow. Yes lend lease helped but a revitalised Soviet army bled the Germans dry. Now after years of neglect the Russians are reequipped. Maybe they are not as well equipped as the USA do not under estimate your adversary. National pride is one thing. Nationalistic arrogance is another.

USA defense spending $560 billion. Russia $60 billion.

Arrogance would be putting the two in the same league.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Scotwight

[Srikcir]

Putin wants an incident where the USA and Russia directly engage in that region because then he can justify invading "Nato protected" Baltic countries to his own people. He would easily win that and if he's going to do it, it will be before the USA election.

The USA and Russia are already in a proxy war. In this case the U.S. right wing is correct, Obama has shown weakness and a strong man dictator like Putin takes advantage, because that's the nature of that kind of beast.

I don't know if Putin has decided to invade or not yet, but you can sure he's thinking about it, dancing some dances, calculating the price of doing so.

It's not like something he hasn't done before in Georgia and Ukraine.

It will be interesting to see how these events influence the U.S. election.

Trump who I don't think will be nominated by the republicans, but might be, has shown an even softer tone towards Putin's aggression than Obama, and that's saying something.

Putin wants an incident where the USA and Russia directly engage in that region

Obama has shown weakness and a strong man dictator like Putin takes advantage

These two comments seem at cross-purpose.

Putin didn't get his incident, so Putin failed.

Obama's weakness gave Putin an opportunity but no advantage, so Putin failed

[ableguy]

I hope the hot heads in Russia and the US won't start a war, the US would not win and would be forced to give up much of its bases. The US would be technological superior but the sovjets are far more willing to take casualties. Just look at WW2, this would tip the advantage to Russia and the US would loose much of its foreign bases.

Probably would end in a draw with Russia scoring a tactical victory and taking over some bases of the US. US does not have the stomach to really go to war (nobody in their right mind woyyuld). Far easier to order your soldiers in a dictatorship (Russia) as a Democracy .. the US.

I guess that is why the US did not fire.. they know what would happen otherwise.

Your lack of knowledge is appalling ref The capabilities of the USA military, enough said from me.

[Jingthing]

Putin wants an incident where the USA and Russia directly engage in that region because then he can justify invading "Nato protected" Baltic countries to his own people. He would easily win that and if he's going to do it, it will be before the USA election.

The USA and Russia are already in a proxy war. In this case the U.S. right wing is correct, Obama has shown weakness and a strong man dictator like Putin takes advantage, because that's the nature of that kind of beast.

I don't know if Putin has decided to invade or not yet, but you can sure he's thinking about it, dancing some dances, calculating the price of doing so.

It's not like something he hasn't done before in Georgia and Ukraine.

It will be interesting to see how these events influence the U.S. election.

Trump who I don't think will be nominated by the republicans, but might be, has shown an even softer tone towards Putin's aggression than Obama, and that's saying something.

Putin wants an incident where the USA and Russia directly engage in that region

Obama has shown weakness and a strong man dictator like Putin takes advantage

These two comments seem at cross-purpose.

Putin didn't get his incident, so Putin failed.

Obama's weakness gave Putin an opportunity but no advantage, so Putin failed

You failed to see my point in context.

This is one incident.

It was very serious in the context of USA-Russia relations in recent decades.

But it wasn't serious enough to spark anything. It could have been. It was perhaps a test of sorts ... more may be coming.

Tomorrow is another day.

My POV is that Russia wants to invade into NATO protected Baltic countries if they think they can get away with it without too much cost (as they did in Crimea but no Nato issue) and have the proper propaganda ammunition, even internally.

Obama is less scary to Putin than his likely successor, Hillary Clinton.

Putin also has some power to influence the U.S. election so he may wait until after the nominations to see what he's dealing with.

Perhaps Putin is just playing big boy pissing games and knows the price is going to be too high, even before Obama leaves, but I still think there is evidence Putin is at least considering the idea.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[up2u2]

It shows how easy it is to breach defence zones of floating Destroyers and Aircraft Carriers.

[smedly]

Russian kit has been destroyed all over the planet when faced with western technology, their aircraft - ships are scrap - submarines are outdated, they have nothing that will combat an enemy that they will never see hear or detect and they know it, the only endgame they have is nuclear and even then the chances of what they launch actually reaching a target is questionable, so lets not kid ourselves here - Russia is spent and militarily defunct, the only way they have a chnace of taking on the west is to partner up with China and that isn't going to work either

It's like a big dumb ass muscle bound numty getting in the ring with a trained elite killer, the fight is over before it starts and he can bring along his numpty chinese mate who will look on and get out of the ring and run.......end

[smedly]

Putin wants an incident where the USA and Russia directly engage in that region because then he can justify invading "Nato protected" Baltic countries to his own people. He would easily win that and if he's going to do it, it will be before the USA election.

The USA and Russia are already in a proxy war. In this case the U.S. right wing is correct, Obama has shown weakness and a strong man dictator like Putin takes advantage, because that's the nature of that kind of beast.

I don't know if Putin has decided to invade or not yet, but you can sure he's thinking about it, dancing some dances, calculating the price of doing so.

It's not like something he hasn't done before in Georgia and Ukraine.

It will be interesting to see how these events influence the U.S. election.

Trump who I don't think will be nominated by the republicans, but might be, has shown an even softer tone towards Putin's aggression than Obama, and that's saying something.

Putin got his engagement in Turkey, boundaries were crossed after mutiple warnings and the result was that a russian jet got shot down, Putin's days are numbered, he has his billions and is right now wondering how he can deflect the fact that Russia is bankrupt and he can retire, flying past a US warship at 30ft isn't going to bolster the national interest, everyone knows that these aircraft were a few seconds from being no more, I applaud the Captains restraint this time but perhaps a warning that if it happens again these pilots might not be so lucky and end up in the sea

[smedly]

It shows how easy it is to breach defence zones of floating Destroyers and Aircraft Carriers.

they didn't breach anything, they were allowed to do what they did with the crew onboard cheering them on, perhaps under different circumstances there would be no cheering, you understand the concept of threat levels, as in the example I posted above, Turkey issued a clear threat warning - fly into our airspace and you will be shot down, if this ship had issued a similar warning .................................

[Kiwiken]

1905 a Tsarist fleet destroyed at Tsushima by the Japanese, 1940 The Fins inflicted a huge defeat on the Soviet Armies in the Winter War, 1941 the Germans attacked a Soviet Union in the middle of a re equipping program with new Officers coming on stream. Before US and British aid arrived they stopped the Germans at Moscow. Yes lend lease helped but a revitalised Soviet army bled the Germans dry. Now after years of neglect the Russians are reequipped. Maybe they are not as well equipped as the USA do not under estimate your adversary. National pride is one thing. Nationalistic arrogance is another.

USA defense spending $560 billion. Russia $60 billion.

Arrogance would be putting the two in the same league.

Just a point if US spends US$560B and Russia only US$60 which is the most militaristic. Russia has been invaded 12 times in its history but only invaded outside twice. The USA has physically involved itself in more outside wars and proxy wars than Russia. The big point of interest to the too of them is Syria Why?=Oil.