US military units to stay for South China Sea patrols

[Rhys]

SecDef Ashton Carter has expanded the US Pivot to the Pacific to include six aircraft carrier strike groups being forward deployed to the region. Previously the US had one with the 7th Fleet on a rotational basis in Japan.

Carriers will also be based in Guam, South Korea, Singapore and will come under the combined operations of the 7th Fleet and the 3rd Fleet. The two fleets have more ships and firepower than the entire PLA Navy.

Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter arrives on board the USS John C. Stennis CVN 74 nuclear powered aircraft carrier in the South China Sea April 16th to address 2000 Naval and Marine forces in the main hangar deck. Carter, who is on a trip to India and the Philippines cancelled his scheduled visit to Beijing due to increasing disputes and tensions in the Sea and in the region.

"What, what, what... where is my balut?"

[Publicus]

SecDef Ashton Carter has expanded the US Pivot to the Pacific to include six aircraft carrier strike groups being forward deployed to the region. Previously the US had one with the 7th Fleet on a rotational basis in Japan.

Carriers will also be based in Guam, South Korea, Singapore and will come under the combined operations of the 7th Fleet and the 3rd Fleet. The two fleets have more ships and firepower than the entire PLA Navy.

Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter arrives on board the USS John C. Stennis CVN 74 nuclear powered aircraft carrier in the South China Sea April 16th to address 2000 Naval and Marine forces in the main hangar deck. Carter, who is on a trip to India and the Philippines cancelled his scheduled visit to Beijing due to increasing disputes and tensions in the Sea and in the region.

"What, what, what... where is my balut?"

Much preferred to the PLA chumplins.

[Publicus]

And its cold won ton war.

[tonbridgebrit]

The Lowy Institute of Sydney which is a national security center in Australia affiliated with the Hudson Institute of New York released moments ago the information the USN today conducted a third SCS Freedom of Navigation operation within 12 miles of Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Islands.

The Aegis guided missile destroyer USS William P. Lawrence DDG 110 sailed without prior notice past a large militarised island that was visited just recently by the PLA's second highest general and which just last week was the site of a big entertainment show run by the PLA.

US Navy carries out third FONOP in South China Sea

The US Navy has carried out another freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea. According to defence sources, it was conducted, on the morning of 10 May, by the USS William P. Lawrence, a guided missile destroyer within 12 nautical miles of Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Islands.

Okay, Okay Washington, you've made your point. Just try to NOT fire any missiles whilst you are doing your patrols.

[keemapoot]

Here's a setback today and disappointment for those beating the war drums in the SCS with respect to Malaysia. More bad news for China haters, - Malay Frn Minister said because of Malaysia’s close relationship with China, we (both countries) sincerely believe that we should be able to talk to each other about problems that we may have, provided we continue to keep the communication and engagement open,” he said.

http://www.nst.com.my/news/2016/05/144810/malaysia-china-agree-settle-south-china-sea-issues-doc

Malaysia and China have agreed to settle South China Sea-related issues through the Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea (DOC) and to speed up the completion of the Code of Conduct in the South China Sea

[tonbridgebrit]

Yes, Malaysia, you know it makes sense.

[LawrenceChee]

When you look at ASEAN , Singapore , Indonesia , Malaysia , Thailand , Brunei , Laos and Cambodia are all willing to talk with China and to an extent allow what China want as long as they get the benefits from the explorations of SCS

Vietnam , Myanmar and Philippines have their misgivings due to the current governments and the Chinese are willing to wait for more friendly governments and see if a deal can be done. Myanmar is a long time Friend and will return soon to the table and Vietnam has lots of deals done by businesses unofficially and unannounced in the media while this spat is ongoing

Like I mention, China has learned from the USA resource grab of Iraq and how that went wrong and learnt from it ...so now they are picking individual conversations with each ASEAN member to see what they want ...and negotiate directly

Eg Cambodia has no claims to SCS and have no real interest in it , but they do want the bus loads of Chinese tourists to continue in Siem Reap , bringing in much needed currency and they also want the dam developments and a profit of the hydro electricity generated like Laos and selling natural resources deal , China can trade with that.

[tonbridgebrit]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/taiwan-enters-south-china-sea-legal-fray-group-230610513.html

Okay, a few quotes from the latest absurd claims from Taiwan about this South China Seas dispute.


[HONG KONG/TAIPEI (Reuters) - A Taiwanese group has intervened in the Philippines' international court case against China's claims in the South China Sea, pressing Taipei's position that Taiwan is entitled to a swathe of the disputed waterway as an economic zone.]


[Last month, the judges allowed written evidence from the government-linked Chinese (Taiwan) Society of International Law, even though Taiwan is neither a member of the United Nations, nor a signatory to UNCLOS, legal and diplomatic sources told Reuters.]


["Chinese people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait all have a responsibility to jointly protect the ancestral property of the Chinese people," the ministry said in a faxed reply to Reuters]




Look, Taiwan, let's get real here. You left main-land China back in 1949, and so, you do not have any claims that China had before 1949.
The "ancestral property of the Chinese people" ? Yes, that claim is being done by BEIJING.

Taiwan, do shut up, your boss in Washington is embarrassed by your claims.

[tonbridgebrit]

Here's a setback today and disappointment for those beating the war drums in the SCS with respect to Malaysia. More bad news for China haters, - Malay Frn Minister said because of Malaysia’s close relationship with China, we (both countries) sincerely believe that we should be able to talk to each other about problems that we may have, provided we continue to keep the communication and engagement open,” he said.

http://www.nst.com.my/news/2016/05/144810/malaysia-china-agree-settle-south-china-sea-issues-doc

Malaysia and China have agreed to settle South China Sea-related issues through the Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea (DOC) and to speed up the completion of the Code of Conduct in the South China Sea

Look, this whole South China Sea problem. Instead of regarding the US military as a solution to the problem, it might be the case that the US is part of the problem.

[keemapoot]

When you look at ASEAN , Singapore , Indonesia , Malaysia , Thailand , Brunei , Laos and Cambodia are all willing to talk with China and to an extent allow what China want as long as they get the benefits from the explorations of SCS

Vietnam , Myanmar and Philippines have their misgivings due to the current governments and the Chinese are willing to wait for more friendly governments and see if a deal can be done. Myanmar is a long time Friend and will return soon to the table and Vietnam has lots of deals done by businesses unofficially and unannounced in the media while this spat is ongoing

Like I mention, China has learned from the USA resource grab of Iraq and how that went wrong and learnt from it ...so now they are picking individual conversations with each ASEAN member to see what they want ...and negotiate directly

Eg Cambodia has no claims to SCS and have no real interest in it , but they do want the bus loads of Chinese tourists to continue in Siem Reap , bringing in much needed currency and they also want the dam developments and a profit of the hydro electricity generated like Laos and selling natural resources deal , China can trade with that.

ASEAN is a mixed bag with respect to China. In honesty, Malaysia's claims are not as valuable in the SCS as Vietnam's for example. Friendly governments come and go, and in Myanmar (Burma as we old guys like to call it), China is most definitely not the flavor of the month. I have been going regularly and will go at least 4 more times over the next few months, including meeting with the new NLD Government in Naypyitaw, and being anything but Chinese is an advantage now. Sorry but true. Lots of interesting and big things to do there now.

Cambodia and Lao, though still mostly basket cases, are recovering and will grow this year, and largely inconsequential in the SCS dispute, as they have no dog in that fight.

Big and/or strategic players like Indo and Viet are the ones to watch right now, and Obama is on his way there, after he apologizes in Hiroshima.

Edited May 11, 2016 by keemapoot

[LawrenceChee]

Liked your pulse to the matters Keemapoot and you are right on both counts

Vietnam and Myanmar are not favourable grounds for the Chinese for now ....lets see if it gets better later

Myanmar is an interesting place , I do like the jade markets there

[LawrenceChee]

When you look at ASEAN , Singapore , Indonesia , Malaysia , Thailand , Brunei , Laos and Cambodia are all willing to talk with China and to an extent allow what China want as long as they get the benefits from the explorations of SCS

Vietnam , Myanmar and Philippines have their misgivings due to the current governments and the Chinese are willing to wait for more friendly governments and see if a deal can be done. Myanmar is a long time Friend and will return soon to the table and Vietnam has lots of deals done by businesses unofficially and unannounced in the media while this spat is ongoing

Like I mention, China has learned from the USA resource grab of Iraq and how that went wrong and learnt from it ...so now they are picking individual conversations with each ASEAN member to see what they want ...and negotiate directly

Eg Cambodia has no claims to SCS and have no real interest in it , but they do want the bus loads of Chinese tourists to continue in Siem Reap , bringing in much needed currency and they also want the dam developments and a profit of the hydro electricity generated like Laos and selling natural resources deal , China can trade with that.

ASEAN is a mixed bag with respect to China. In honesty, Malaysia's claims are not as valuable in the SCS as Vietnam's for example. Friendly governments come and go, and in Myanmar (Burma as we old guys like to call it), China is most definitely not the flavor of the month. I have been going regularly and will go at least 4 more times over the next few months, including meeting with the new NLD Government in Naypyitaw, and being anything but Chinese is an advantage now. Sorry but true. Lots of interesting and big things to do there now.

Cambodia and Lao, though still mostly basket cases, are recovering and will grow this year, and largely inconsequential in the SCS dispute, as they have no dog in that fight.

Big and/or strategic players like Indo and Viet are the ones to watch right now, and Obama is on his way there, after he apologizes in Hiroshima.

I don't think he will apologise although I likes Obama for doing the brave things he has done in his presidency . Some would view him as weak but for me, he's the best out the last 5 lots and have the action and tenacity to do the right thing , a measured military response , challenging Cuba restrictions etc

America did not apologise for the nuclear wars, Vietnamese use of chemical weapons, current Middle East crisis and families displaced etc and I won't be holding my breath. His visit alone is significant and we applaud that

As for the SCS , I believe the USA truly wants the resources like China , they are hovering around not sure what to do or how to lay claim on it ...so their current angle is we will sail around stay relevant see if there is a fight we can poke ourselves into (hurray) and hopefully get a slice of the resources ...I would say the current patrols are clueless what they are there for

Although the Chinese ship chandlers made tons of money from their calls.

[keemapoot]

^I was joking about apologizing, but many Japanese are reading this meaning into his visit.

[Publicus]

When you look at ASEAN , Singapore , Indonesia , Malaysia , Thailand , Brunei , Laos and Cambodia are all willing to talk with China and to an extent allow what China want as long as they get the benefits from the explorations of SCS

Vietnam , Myanmar and Philippines have their misgivings due to the current governments and the Chinese are willing to wait for more friendly governments and see if a deal can be done. Myanmar is a long time Friend and will return soon to the table and Vietnam has lots of deals done by businesses unofficially and unannounced in the media while this spat is ongoing

Like I mention, China has learned from the USA resource grab of Iraq and how that went wrong and learnt from it ...so now they are picking individual conversations with each ASEAN member to see what they want ...and negotiate directly

Eg Cambodia has no claims to SCS and have no real interest in it , but they do want the bus loads of Chinese tourists to continue in Siem Reap , bringing in much needed currency and they also want the dam developments and a profit of the hydro electricity generated like Laos and selling natural resources deal , China can trade with that.

ASEAN is a mixed bag with respect to China. In honesty, Malaysia's claims are not as valuable in the SCS as Vietnam's for example. Friendly governments come and go, and in Myanmar (Burma as we old guys like to call it), China is most definitely not the flavor of the month. I have been going regularly and will go at least 4 more times over the next few months, including meeting with the new NLD Government in Naypyitaw, and being anything but Chinese is an advantage now. Sorry but true. Lots of interesting and big things to do there now.

Cambodia and Lao, though still mostly basket cases, are recovering and will grow this year, and largely inconsequential in the SCS dispute, as they have no dog in that fight.

Big and/or strategic players like Indo and Viet are the ones to watch right now, and Obama is on his way there, after he apologizes in Hiroshima.

President Obama is not going to apologize for anything in Hiroshima when he visits there toward the end of the month at the G-7 heads of government meeting.

The major development of this G-7 leaders' meeting will almost assuredly be a unified statement supporting the UNILOS in the South China Sea and throughout the region. That is, CCP respect for and compliance with the ruling coming soon by the UN sponsored Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague.

But then again, the CCP Dictators in Beijing have never known how to say yes.

[boomerangutang]

This just in......

The Pentagon just found an old hand-drawn map of the Caribbean and some staffer took a felt tip pen and drew a big loop around all its islands. Pentagon top brass looked at the dashed lines and smiled approvingly. The president saw the map, and is now sending US ships (including boats equipped to mix tons of concrete) to various islands. the US re-named all the islands and shoals in the Caribbean, and won't listen (or be a party to) any other countries which don't agree to what's going on there. The US is also sending troops, building long airstrips and placing missile launch facilities set in hardened concrete.

The White House press secretary released a statement today telling the world press corps, "The US doesn't care what anyone thinks, who doesn't agree with US activities in the Caribbean. If anyone has a problem with the expanded US territory, they're welcome to arrange talks with the State Department. BTW, Zambia just announced it is fully in favor of everything the US is doing in the Caribbean, which we have renamed the South USA Sea. If any country wants a military confrontation, it won't be the US who fires the first shot. But all countries should know that the US has a very powerful military, and won't tolerate any resistance to it peacefully taking its rightful islands."

Well done. I'd mentioned in some other SCS threads the joke going around The Hague, that they expect any day now that the CCP will suddenly announce that its moon probe it landed a year ago, called Jade Rabbit, has found a map saying China owns the South China Sea.

And most significant yet that the map will also show the Middle Kingdom owns all of the world itself. Chariots of the Chinese.

China could plant a plastic red flag on the moon and claim it as Chinese territory. Who's going to stop themt? Similar for Antarctica. Are UN findings going to stop China? No. China has already made clear it will ignore any International findings which it doesn't agree with. Will threats of military action deter China? No. China has a strong military and paints itself as peaceful, because its territory grabs (not counting Tibet) are done without military force. If one of China's adversaries fires the first shot, China can then claim to the world, "You see. We were being peaceful. and then the US (or whomever) started shooting at us! We only seek peace and harmony."

The Lowy Institute of Sydney which is a national security center in Australia affiliated with the Hudson Institute of New York released moments ago the information the USN today conducted a third SCS Freedom of Navigation operation within 12 miles of Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Islands.

The Aegis guided missile destroyer USS William P. Lawrence DDG 110 sailed without prior notice past a large militarised island that was visited just recently by the PLA's second highest general and which just last week was the site of a big entertainment show run by the PLA.

US Navy carries out third FONOP in South China Sea

The US Navy has carried out another freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea. According to defence sources, it was conducted, on the morning of 10 May, by the USS William P. Lawrence, a guided missile destroyer within 12 nautical miles of Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Islands.

Okay, Okay Washington, you've made your point. Just try to NOT fire any missiles whilst you are doing your patrols.

There are two basic ways to spark confrontation. One is the US method put forth by Prez Bush Sr re; Kuwait. Form a coalition, and spend weeks/month telling your adversary what you're going to do.

The other is preemptive. I have a feeling the US and its many allies in Asia will take the prior route - in other words, gather its friends around, issue weekly announcements to Beijing to do what's right ("pack up and return to China"). Unfortunately, that time-consuming approach won't be any more successful than Bush Sr. telling Saddam to vacate Kuwait. Indeed, while the coalition was issuing ultimatums, Iraq was getting more entrenched day by day.

What's needed in the SCS, in my view, is: #1 wait for 'findings/report' from Int'l tribunal(s). The resolutions will undoubtedly show China is breaking many laws. Secondly; issue a demand that China begin immediately vacating the islands, with no Chinese military allowed in the vicinity. A no-fly no-sail zone. Only non-military vessels allowed to come down from China - for the purpose of evacuating the islands.

If there's any deviation from the demand, US and coalition forces will activate. Similar to what UK did re; the Falkland Islands.

I admit, it sounds like saber-rattling, but I truly believe that the only way to get the Chinese to go back to China is dynamic action taken soon. Anything less won't work.

[Publicus]

CCP scrambled yesterday three PLA Air Force fighter jets and sent three PLA Navy warships to watch the USN destroyer USS Lawrence conduct its innocent passage within 12 nm of Fiery Cross Reef which CCP has cemented over several times by now.

The region is expecting next that the CCP Dictators will send its fisherman militia to invade the Scarborough Shoal which is 140 miles from Manila and 470 miles from the coast of China.

China scrambles fighter jets as U.S. destroyer steams past disputed island

Two years ago, Fiery Cross Reef was little more than a cluster of rocks jutting out of the water, but in recent months the Chinese have built it into a military facility, complete with a runway, helicopter landing areas and a port. The installation is one of more than a half-dozen Chinese-developed islands in the disputed Spratly Islands.

According to the Chinese Foreign Ministry, the U.S. destroyer entered the area without China’s permission.

“The American naval vessel threatened China’s sovereignty, security and interests, and it harmed the safety of the people and facilities in the island, damaging regional stability,” Lu Kang, a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, said in a regularly scheduled news conference. “As we have stressed over and over again, China firmly opposes such behavior and we will take necessary measures to safeguard China’s sovereignty and territory.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/05/10/china-scrambles-fighters-jets-as-u-s-destroyer-steams-past-disputed-island/

More CCP posturing, lecturing and scolding blah blah blah.

Actually, this is an escalation as it is the first time CCP scrambled PLA Air Force fighter jets as a response to a USN freedom of navigation operation. CCP had sent PLA Navy ships on previous occasions, but had not scrambled any Air Force assets.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Publicus

[Publicus]

^I was joking about apologizing, but many Japanese are reading this meaning into his visit.

Fine but there's no reason to articulate any apology of any kind.

[55Jay]

When you look at ASEAN , Singapore , Indonesia , Malaysia , Thailand , Brunei , Laos and Cambodia are all willing to talk with China and to an extent allow what China want as long as they get the benefits from the explorations of SCS

Vietnam , Myanmar and Philippines have their misgivings due to the current governments and the Chinese are willing to wait for more friendly governments and see if a deal can be done. Myanmar is a long time Friend and will return soon to the table and Vietnam has lots of deals done by businesses unofficially and unannounced in the media while this spat is ongoing

Like I mention, China has learned from the USA resource grab of Iraq and how that went wrong and learnt from it ...so now they are picking individual conversations with each ASEAN member to see what they want ...and negotiate directly

Eg Cambodia has no claims to SCS and have no real interest in it , but they do want the bus loads of Chinese tourists to continue in Siem Reap , bringing in much needed currency and they also want the dam developments and a profit of the hydro electricity generated like Laos and selling natural resources deal , China can trade with that.

ASEAN is a mixed bag with respect to China. In honesty, Malaysia's claims are not as valuable in the SCS as Vietnam's for example. Friendly governments come and go, and in Myanmar (Burma as we old guys like to call it), China is most definitely not the flavor of the month. I have been going regularly and will go at least 4 more times over the next few months, including meeting with the new NLD Government in Naypyitaw, and being anything but Chinese is an advantage now. Sorry but true. Lots of interesting and big things to do there now.

Cambodia and Lao, though still mostly basket cases, are recovering and will grow this year, and largely inconsequential in the SCS dispute, as they have no dog in that fight.

Big and/or strategic players like Indo and Viet are the ones to watch right now, and Obama is on his way there, after he apologizes in Hiroshima.

I don't think he will apologise although I likes Obama for doing the brave things he has done in his presidency . Some would view him as weak but for me, he's the best out the last 5 lots and have the action and tenacity to do the right thing , a measured military response , challenging Cuba restrictions etc

America did not apologise for the nuclear wars, Vietnamese use of chemical weapons, current Middle East crisis and families displaced etc and I won't be holding my breath. His visit alone is significant and we applaud that

As for the SCS , I believe the USA truly wants the resources like China , they are hovering around not sure what to do or how to lay claim on it ...so their current angle is we will sail around stay relevant see if there is a fight we can poke ourselves into (hurray) and hopefully get a slice of the resources ...I would say the current patrols are clueless what they are there for

Although the Chinese ship chandlers made tons of money from their calls.

If China wanted to explore and exploit resources in the SCS, and had any intention of sharing with anybody, they would have:

- Stated their business proposal in advance.

- Held a regional meeting with the parties involved.

- Negotiated joint ventures, terms and conditions and, given the pre-existing tension among the players involved about China, include transparent assurances and protections from ulterior, military agendas.

They didn't do any of that. They rushed in, secured territory, drew new arbitrary lines on their map, started building and installed human shields, and now threaten to use force to "defend" "their" territory.

Your position seems to be just accept China's actions, get over it, "let's negotiate" after the fact. That's like someone breaking into my house, stealing my stuff, then saying I need to contact them to set up a meeting and as long as I'm nice, maybe I can negotiate to get some of my stuff back.

Edited May 11, 2016 by 55Jay

[boomerangutang]

If China wanted to explore and exploit resources in the SCS, and had any intention of sharing with anybody, they would have:

- Stated their business proposal in advance.

- Held a regional meeting with the parties involved.

- Negotiated joint ventures, terms and conditions and, given the pre-existing tension among the players involved about China, include transparent assurances and protections from ulterior, military agendas.

They didn't do any of that. They rushed in, secured territory, drew new arbitrary lines on their map, started building and installed human shields, and now threaten to use force to "defend" "their" territory.

Your position seems to be just accept China's actions, get over it, "let's negotiate" after the fact. That's like someone breaking into my house, stealing my stuff, then saying I need to contact them to set up a meeting and as long as I'm nice, maybe I can negotiate to get some of my stuff back.

The above could be Best Post of the Day.

[keemapoot]

This Obama Asian pivot is turning into a potentially very effective foreign policy, and its policy of multilateralism instead of military containment as argued by some on this thread.

His stop in Japan now, and later his visit to Vietnam, together with his concerted strategy with his team of regional Ambassadors recruiting countries like Cambodia to join the TPP is showing rewards. Not to give too much credit, because as the following analysis shows, Obama admin. was caught on its back foot in the SCS by China's rapid island building, and some countries were forced into the arms of Uncle Sam, but nevertheless, the administration seems to be running on all eight cylinders now, and having some real impact. So, if this continues, and the renewed US presence and trade and security partnership in Asia continues, we may see countries like Thailand also joining the party, including maybe the TPP. We already saw Thailand reject the terms of China's rail deal, and I wonder if there was any tangential impact from the other parties in SE Asia.

This may turn out to be one of his crowning achievements and enduring legacies as President.

Despite critics’ insistence that Obama’s strategy of multilateralism rather than containment is undercutting American power in Asia, the reality on the ground is far different. Regional countries are welcoming a strong U.S. presence and have lined up to sign defense deals with Uncle Sam. Asian states have also formed security links and strategic partnerships amongst each other in a growing network to defend against Chinese domination.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/obamas-south-china-sea-strategy-working-16132

[craigt3365]

Look, this whole South China Sea problem. Instead of regarding the US military as a solution to the problem, it might be the case that the US is part of the problem.

So it was the US who built military outposts on deserted coral islands in contested waters? Right....

[boomerangutang]

Obama admin. was caught on its back foot in the SCS by China's rapid island building,.....

Even a big country like the US, with its many 'intelligence' agencies can miss things. Some of us on this thread have been aware of the problems in the SCS for many moons. The CIA and US military seem to have been aware for weeks. Or maybe they were aware as early as we were, but put it on low priority. Washington insiders have many diversions, and don't always gauge what's most important to keep an eye on. It sounds like they're waking up a bit, but their earlier slumber has enabled China to do a lot of ground work at the islands and shoals.

I like Obama, but he's human and therefore imperfect. Same for the hundreds of people reporting to him. In contrast, having someone like Trump at the helm (Bob, help us) would make such things (as international security) much muddier. Trump would spend at least half his calories each day re-wording the mistakes he made the previous day. He would gradually become more withdrawn on all but a few topics, as it became increasingly evident (to the press corps and general public) what a dufus he is. He would devolve to a Nixon-like character. Nixon became manic depressed, and wound up spending most of his waking hours in a dark little room with bottles of hard liquor. Very few people had access to him in his final months, and for the few that did, the only topic of conversation was how to screw the people hyper-paranoid Nixon thought were trying to screw him.

[boomerangutang]

Look, this whole South China Sea problem. Instead of regarding the US military as a solution to the problem, it might be the case that the US is part of the problem.

So it was the US who built military outposts on deserted coral islands in contested waters? Right....

The US can be seen as 'part of the problem' only by those who support China's territory grabs.

[Publicus]

This Obama Asian pivot is turning into a potentially very effective foreign policy, and its policy of multilateralism instead of military containment as argued by some on this thread.

His stop in Japan now, and later his visit to Vietnam, together with his concerted strategy with his team of regional Ambassadors recruiting countries like Cambodia to join the TPP is showing rewards. Not to give too much credit, because as the following analysis shows, Obama admin. was caught on its back foot in the SCS by China's rapid island building, and some countries were forced into the arms of Uncle Sam, but nevertheless, the administration seems to be running on all eight cylinders now, and having some real impact. So, if this continues, and the renewed US presence and trade and security partnership in Asia continues, we may see countries like Thailand also joining the party, including maybe the TPP. We already saw Thailand reject the terms of China's rail deal, and I wonder if there was any tangential impact from the other parties in SE Asia.

This may turn out to be one of his crowning achievements and enduring legacies as President.

Despite critics’ insistence that Obama’s strategy of multilateralism rather than containment is undercutting American power in Asia, the reality on the ground is far different. Regional countries are welcoming a strong U.S. presence and have lined up to sign defense deals with Uncle Sam. Asian states have also formed security links and strategic partnerships amongst each other in a growing network to defend against Chinese domination.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/obamas-south-china-sea-strategy-working-16132

The pivot to the Pacific aka Rebalancing to Asia-Pacific is the work of then SecState Hillary Clinton and then AsstSecState for Asia-Pacific Kurt Campbell. President Obama took to it immediately and, while he accepted the military aspect of it, Pres Obama said to focus on the diplomatic and on economics, trade, TPP especially.

However, because Pres. Obama long ago made a mess of Syria, Putin moved against Ukraine, then Putin moved into Syria. Xi Jinping who loves the PLA more than any CCP leader since Mao, got egged on by Putin to move in the SCS while Barack Obama was still Potus, but Putin did not need to use many eggs.

So although that's a quick, down and dirty summary of how the US got to where it is in the SCS, we are where we are. And so where might that be in consequential terms? CCP aggressions in the SCS constituted the final straw as it were in Chuck Hegel's deficiencies as SecDef so the hawks in Washington who'd wanted Ashton Carter to succeed Bob Gates finally got their hawk SecDef Carter. Barack acceeded to Carter whose response to CCP's moves in SCS has been to put the USN in it from this point forward. CCP was floored by Washington's response to put the USN into the mix and the freedom of navigation operations is driving CCP nuts as they nonetheless continue to proceed but ever more carefully.

Asean, Japan, India and regional US allies and partners are not complaining about the USN moving in as a new indefinite guest -- quite to the contrary, they are relieved and support the US refocus and its comprehensive presence both short term and long term. As a matter of perspective, remember that USN ships get far more publicity than do the ongoing business deals that occur continually if not continuously.

It is generally recognised that the Scarborough Shoal is presently the most strategic and pivotal spot of the SCS for several reasons. The two most prominent reasons are that CCP invading and occupying the Shoal will complete its "Iron Triangle" of possessing and controlling the Paracels off Vietnam, Scarborough off the Phils, the Spratlys that dominate the south of the SCS. Secondly, CCP invading and occupying Scarborough places CCP missiles in an easy range of Manila and US bases in the Phils, namely Subic Bay and its nearby air base Clark Field. The significant bottom line is that CCP's new iron triangle remakes the SCS into the South China Strait of the CCP because all shipping must pass through the triangle.

The USN freedom of navigation operation of yesterday by the USS Lawrence guided missile destroyer in the Spratlys was Pres Obama's statement to the region in advance of the G-7 leader's meeting later in the month and ahead of his visit to Vietnam. The heat is on Pres. Obama from the Pentagon and Hanoi to lift completely the lethal arms embargo against Vietnam so the Vietnamese can set up coastal missile batteries in easy range of the Paracels as seized and occupied by the CCP Dictators.

Youse guyz on the Green Team are welcome to continue to reference the many ongoing and silent business and corporate deals that occur with CCP and throughout the region. What you seem to miss however is that contemporaneous to CCP's SCS aggressions are a little reported series of nuclear weapons testing initiated by CCP of a radically new 'game changer' bomb, the Hypersonic Glide Vehicle against which there are no missile defenses. The CCP nuclearised HGV is of course based on CCP use of conventional weapon HGV technology stolen from the US and CCP is saying specifically the new nuclearised HGV weapon in development gives it the edge in the SCS...and in East Asia and in the Western Pacific....and outward.

If anyone thinks CCP does not mean business would need to think again.

New Chinese Hypersonic Nuclear Vehicle Can Defeat US Defenses?

Wu-14 test shows 'extreme maneuvers' that could render US defense systems 'obsolete' and deliver a nuclear strike.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/196621

Edited May 11, 2016 by Publicus

[keemapoot]

^Tons of good stuff and food for thought in both Pubs post and Tonbridge. No time to research or respond, but I hope you guys continue that dialogue.

[boomerangutang]

in today's Nation newspaper there's an article Re; titled; "US warship off of Yongshu Reef angers China. I had never heard of Yongshu Reef, but suspected it was one of the new Chinese names China has placed on Philippine islands it's commandeering. The dateline of the article is: China Daily / Asia News Network. That explains it. Nation just cuts & pastes whatever comes down the tubes from the China Daily newspaper. I wrote a letter to Nation advising them to not be such brown-nosers (using more polite language than that). We'll see if it gets published. If China renamed Ko Tao to Hongshwe Island, and then took it over, Thailand would just wai and step aside.

[LawrenceChee]

This Obama Asian pivot is turning into a potentially very effective foreign policy, and its policy of multilateralism instead of military containment as argued by some on this thread.

His stop in Japan now, and later his visit to Vietnam, together with his concerted strategy with his team of regional Ambassadors recruiting countries like Cambodia to join the TPP is showing rewards. Not to give too much credit, because as the following analysis shows, Obama admin. was caught on its back foot in the SCS by China's rapid island building, and some countries were forced into the arms of Uncle Sam, but nevertheless, the administration seems to be running on all eight cylinders now, and having some real impact. So, if this continues, and the renewed US presence and trade and security partnership in Asia continues, we may see countries like Thailand also joining the party, including maybe the TPP. We already saw Thailand reject the terms of China's rail deal, and I wonder if there was any tangential impact from the other parties in SE Asia.

This may turn out to be one of his crowning achievements and enduring legacies as President.

Despite critics’ insistence that Obama’s strategy of multilateralism rather than containment is undercutting American power in Asia, the reality on the ground is far different. Regional countries are welcoming a strong U.S. presence and have lined up to sign defense deals with Uncle Sam. Asian states have also formed security links and strategic partnerships amongst each other in a growing network to defend against Chinese domination.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/obamas-south-china-sea-strategy-working-16132

The pivot to the Pacific aka Rebalancing to Asia-Pacific is the work of then SecState Hillary Clinton and then AsstSecState for Asia-Pacific Kurt Campbell. President Obama took to it immediately and, while he accepted the military aspect of it, Pres Obama said to focus on the diplomatic and on economics, trade, TPP especially.

However, because Pres. Obama long ago made a mess of Syria, Putin moved against Ukraine, then Putin moved into Syria. Xi Jinping who loves the PLA more than any CCP leader since Mao, got egged on by Putin to move in the SCS while Barack Obama was still Potus, but Putin did not need to use many eggs.

So although that's a quick, down and dirty summary of how the US got to where it is in the SCS, we are where we are. And so where might that be in consequential terms? CCP aggressions in the SCS constituted the final straw as it were in Chuck Hegel's deficiencies as SecDef so the hawks in Washington who'd wanted Ashton Carter to succeed Bob Gates finally got their hawk SecDef Carter. Barack acceeded to Carter whose response to CCP's moves in SCS has been to put the USN in it from this point forward. CCP was floored by Washington's response to put the USN into the mix and the freedom of navigation operations is driving CCP nuts as they nonetheless continue to proceed but ever more carefully.

Asean, Japan, India and regional US allies and partners are not complaining about the USN moving in as a new indefinite guest -- quite to the contrary, they are relieved and support the US refocus and its comprehensive presence both short term and long term. As a matter of perspective, remember that USN ships get far more publicity than do the ongoing business deals that occur continually if not continuously.

It is generally recognised that the Scarborough Shoal is presently the most strategic and pivotal spot of the SCS for several reasons. The two most prominent reasons are that CCP invading and occupying the Shoal will complete its "Iron Triangle" of possessing and controlling the Paracels off Vietnam, Scarborough off the Phils, the Spratlys that dominate the south of the SCS. Secondly, CCP invading and occupying Scarborough places CCP missiles in an easy range of Manila and US bases in the Phils, namely Subic Bay and its nearby air base Clark Field. The significant bottom line is that CCP's new iron triangle remakes the SCS into the South China Strait of the CCP because all shipping must pass through the triangle.

The USN freedom of navigation operation of yesterday by the USS Lawrence guided missile destroyer in the Spratlys was Pres Obama's statement to the region in advance of the G-7 leader's meeting later in the month and ahead of his visit to Vietnam. The heat is on Pres. Obama from the Pentagon and Hanoi to lift completely the lethal arms embargo against Vietnam so the Vietnamese can set up coastal missile batteries in easy range of the Paracels as seized and occupied by the CCP Dictators.

Youse guyz on the Green Team are welcome to continue to reference the many ongoing and silent business and corporate deals that occur with CCP and throughout the region. What you seem to miss however is that contemporaneous to CCP's SCS aggressions are a little reported series of nuclear weapons testing initiated by CCP of a radically new 'game changer' bomb, the Hypersonic Glide Vehicle against which there are no missile defenses. The CCP nuclearised HGV is of course based on CCP use of conventional weapon HGV technology stolen from the US and CCP is saying specifically the new nuclearised HGV weapon in development gives it the edge in the SCS...and in East Asia and in the Western Pacific....and outward.

If anyone thinks CCP does not mean business would need to think again.

New Chinese Hypersonic Nuclear Vehicle Can Defeat US Defenses?

Wu-14 test shows 'extreme maneuvers' that could render US defense systems 'obsolete' and deliver a nuclear strike.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/196621

What's there to fear ?

According to most posters here on this forum...made in China means useless plastics and we were not capable of innovation ...what's on the video is probably fake and heading to Walmart for $1 for your Christmas stuffings

Lifting the embargo to sell arms to Vietnam is almost the same scenario that the USA did with Saddam in the 80s to counter Iran and that didn't end up well with that interference ...and chemical weapons given

As angry Myanmar protestors have stinging reactions in Myanmar today over USA's envoy comments that the minority Muslims should have the right to call themselves Rohingyas ...

USA should be mindful how it treat its "allies" as the positives of last month may turn into a negative today ...again the gaffe of foreign policy here shows the lack of depth in understanding the region's geo powers and intricacies ...sailing the patrol in SCS this month is one thing , keeping that up for years is another

[Publicus]

This Obama Asian pivot is turning into a potentially very effective foreign policy, and its policy of multilateralism instead of military containment as argued by some on this thread.

His stop in Japan now, and later his visit to Vietnam, together with his concerted strategy with his team of regional Ambassadors recruiting countries like Cambodia to join the TPP is showing rewards. Not to give too much credit, because as the following analysis shows, Obama admin. was caught on its back foot in the SCS by China's rapid island building, and some countries were forced into the arms of Uncle Sam, but nevertheless, the administration seems to be running on all eight cylinders now, and having some real impact. So, if this continues, and the renewed US presence and trade and security partnership in Asia continues, we may see countries like Thailand also joining the party, including maybe the TPP. We already saw Thailand reject the terms of China's rail deal, and I wonder if there was any tangential impact from the other parties in SE Asia.

This may turn out to be one of his crowning achievements and enduring legacies as President.

Despite critics’ insistence that Obama’s strategy of multilateralism rather than containment is undercutting American power in Asia, the reality on the ground is far different. Regional countries are welcoming a strong U.S. presence and have lined up to sign defense deals with Uncle Sam. Asian states have also formed security links and strategic partnerships amongst each other in a growing network to defend against Chinese domination.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/obamas-south-china-sea-strategy-working-16132

The pivot to the Pacific aka Rebalancing to Asia-Pacific is the work of then SecState Hillary Clinton and then AsstSecState for Asia-Pacific Kurt Campbell. President Obama took to it immediately and, while he accepted the military aspect of it, Pres Obama said to focus on the diplomatic and on economics, trade, TPP especially.

However, because Pres. Obama long ago made a mess of Syria, Putin moved against Ukraine, then Putin moved into Syria. Xi Jinping who loves the PLA more than any CCP leader since Mao, got egged on by Putin to move in the SCS while Barack Obama was still Potus, but Putin did not need to use many eggs.

So although that's a quick, down and dirty summary of how the US got to where it is in the SCS, we are where we are. And so where might that be in consequential terms? CCP aggressions in the SCS constituted the final straw as it were in Chuck Hegel's deficiencies as SecDef so the hawks in Washington who'd wanted Ashton Carter to succeed Bob Gates finally got their hawk SecDef Carter. Barack acceeded to Carter whose response to CCP's moves in SCS has been to put the USN in it from this point forward. CCP was floored by Washington's response to put the USN into the mix and the freedom of navigation operations is driving CCP nuts as they nonetheless continue to proceed but ever more carefully.

Asean, Japan, India and regional US allies and partners are not complaining about the USN moving in as a new indefinite guest -- quite to the contrary, they are relieved and support the US refocus and its comprehensive presence both short term and long term. As a matter of perspective, remember that USN ships get far more publicity than do the ongoing business deals that occur continually if not continuously.

It is generally recognised that the Scarborough Shoal is presently the most strategic and pivotal spot of the SCS for several reasons. The two most prominent reasons are that CCP invading and occupying the Shoal will complete its "Iron Triangle" of possessing and controlling the Paracels off Vietnam, Scarborough off the Phils, the Spratlys that dominate the south of the SCS. Secondly, CCP invading and occupying Scarborough places CCP missiles in an easy range of Manila and US bases in the Phils, namely Subic Bay and its nearby air base Clark Field. The significant bottom line is that CCP's new iron triangle remakes the SCS into the South China Strait of the CCP because all shipping must pass through the triangle.

The USN freedom of navigation operation of yesterday by the USS Lawrence guided missile destroyer in the Spratlys was Pres Obama's statement to the region in advance of the G-7 leader's meeting later in the month and ahead of his visit to Vietnam. The heat is on Pres. Obama from the Pentagon and Hanoi to lift completely the lethal arms embargo against Vietnam so the Vietnamese can set up coastal missile batteries in easy range of the Paracels as seized and occupied by the CCP Dictators.

Youse guyz on the Green Team are welcome to continue to reference the many ongoing and silent business and corporate deals that occur with CCP and throughout the region. What you seem to miss however is that contemporaneous to CCP's SCS aggressions are a little reported series of nuclear weapons testing initiated by CCP of a radically new 'game changer' bomb, the Hypersonic Glide Vehicle against which there are no missile defenses. The CCP nuclearised HGV is of course based on CCP use of conventional weapon HGV technology stolen from the US and CCP is saying specifically the new nuclearised HGV weapon in development gives it the edge in the SCS...and in East Asia and in the Western Pacific....and outward.

If anyone thinks CCP does not mean business would need to think again.

New Chinese Hypersonic Nuclear Vehicle Can Defeat US Defenses?

Wu-14 test shows 'extreme maneuvers' that could render US defense systems 'obsolete' and deliver a nuclear strike.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/196621

What's there to fear ?

According to most posters here on this forum...made in China means useless plastics and we were not capable of innovation ...what's on the video is probably fake and heading to Walmart for $1 for your Christmas stuffings

Lifting the embargo to sell arms to Vietnam is almost the same scenario that the USA did with Saddam in the 80s to counter Iran and that didn't end up well with that interference ...and chemical weapons given

As angry Myanmar protestors have stinging reactions in Myanmar today over USA's envoy comments that the minority Muslims should have the right to call themselves Rohingyas ...

USA should be mindful how it treat its "allies" as the positives of last month may turn into a negative today ...again the gaffe of foreign policy here shows the lack of depth in understanding the region's geo powers and intricacies ...sailing the patrol in SCS this month is one thing , keeping that up for years is another

According to most posters here on this forum...made in China means useless plastics and we were not capable of innovation

The highest capability there would be a tie between theft and corruption. It would anyway be a distinction without a difference.

Lifting the embargo to sell arms to Vietnam is almost the same scenario that the USA did with Saddam in the 80s

If there is a Saddam in this it's Xi Jinping not the leaders of Vietnam or of Myanmar et al. There's no difference between Saddam vs Kuwait and Xi vs Asean. President Obama is adamant, i.e., Vietnam needs to demonstrate progress in civil and human rights if it wants serious weapons against CCP.

sailing the patrol in SCS this month is one thing , keeping that up for years is another

CCP is the Asean neighbor from hell. Same is true from Japan to India -- CCP is the neighborhood's neighbor from hell. Don't figure this will hold for CCP when they have everyone lined up against them, to include international law.

[derator01]

Please stick to the topic. This is not about the TPP nor about the upcoming US presidential elections.

[ExpatOilWorker]

This Obama Asian pivot is turning into a potentially very effective foreign policy, and its policy of multilateralism instead of military containment as argued by some on this thread.

His stop in Japan now, and later his visit to Vietnam, together with his concerted strategy with his team of regional Ambassadors recruiting countries like Cambodia to join the TPP is showing rewards. Not to give too much credit, because as the following analysis shows, Obama admin. was caught on its back foot in the SCS by China's rapid island building, and some countries were forced into the arms of Uncle Sam, but nevertheless, the administration seems to be running on all eight cylinders now, and having some real impact. So, if this continues, and the renewed US presence and trade and security partnership in Asia continues, we may see countries like Thailand also joining the party, including maybe the TPP. We already saw Thailand reject the terms of China's rail deal, and I wonder if there was any tangential impact from the other parties in SE Asia.

This may turn out to be one of his crowning achievements and enduring legacies as President.

Despite critics insistence that Obamas strategy of multilateralism rather than containment is undercutting American power in Asia, the reality on the ground is far different. Regional countries are welcoming a strong U.S. presence and have lined up to sign defense deals with Uncle Sam. Asian states have also formed security links and strategic partnerships amongst each other in a growing network to defend against Chinese domination.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/obamas-south-china-sea-strategy-working-16132

The pivot to the Pacific aka Rebalancing to Asia-Pacific is the work of then SecState Hillary Clinton and then AsstSecState for Asia-Pacific Kurt Campbell. President Obama took to it immediately and, while he accepted the military aspect of it, Pres Obama said to focus on the diplomatic and on economics, trade, TPP especially.

However, because Pres. Obama long ago made a mess of Syria, Putin moved against Ukraine, then Putin moved into Syria. Xi Jinping who loves the PLA more than any CCP leader since Mao, got egged on by Putin to move in the SCS while Barack Obama was still Potus, but Putin did not need to use many eggs.

So although that's a quick, down and dirty summary of how the US got to where it is in the SCS, we are where we are. And so where might that be in consequential terms? CCP aggressions in the SCS constituted the final straw as it were in Chuck Hegel's deficiencies as SecDef so the hawks in Washington who'd wanted Ashton Carter to succeed Bob Gates finally got their hawk SecDef Carter. Barack acceeded to Carter whose response to CCP's moves in SCS has been to put the USN in it from this point forward. CCP was floored by Washington's response to put the USN into the mix and the freedom of navigation operations is driving CCP nuts as they nonetheless continue to proceed but ever more carefully.

Asean, Japan, India and regional US allies and partners are not complaining about the USN moving in as a new indefinite guest -- quite to the contrary, they are relieved and support the US refocus and its comprehensive presence both short term and long term. As a matter of perspective, remember that USN ships get far more publicity than do the ongoing business deals that occur continually if not continuously.

It is generally recognised that the Scarborough Shoal is presently the most strategic and pivotal spot of the SCS for several reasons. The two most prominent reasons are that CCP invading and occupying the Shoal will complete its "Iron Triangle" of possessing and controlling the Paracels off Vietnam, Scarborough off the Phils, the Spratlys that dominate the south of the SCS. Secondly, CCP invading and occupying Scarborough places CCP missiles in an easy range of Manila and US bases in the Phils, namely Subic Bay and its nearby air base Clark Field. The significant bottom line is that CCP's new iron triangle remakes the SCS into the South China Strait of the CCP because all shipping must pass through the triangle.

The USN freedom of navigation operation of yesterday by the USS Lawrence guided missile destroyer in the Spratlys was Pres Obama's statement to the region in advance of the G-7 leader's meeting later in the month and ahead of his visit to Vietnam. The heat is on Pres. Obama from the Pentagon and Hanoi to lift completely the lethal arms embargo against Vietnam so the Vietnamese can set up coastal missile batteries in easy range of the Paracels as seized and occupied by the CCP Dictators.

Youse guyz on the Green Team are welcome to continue to reference the many ongoing and silent business and corporate deals that occur with CCP and throughout the region. What you seem to miss however is that contemporaneous to CCP's SCS aggressions are a little reported series of nuclear weapons testing initiated by CCP of a radically new 'game changer' bomb, the Hypersonic Glide Vehicle against which there are no missile defenses. The CCP nuclearised HGV is of course based on CCP use of conventional weapon HGV technology stolen from the US and CCP is saying specifically the new nuclearised HGV weapon in development gives it the edge in the SCS...and in East Asia and in the Western Pacific....and outward.

If anyone thinks CCP does not mean business would need to think again.

New Chinese Hypersonic Nuclear Vehicle Can Defeat US Defenses?

Wu-14 test shows 'extreme maneuvers' that could render US defense systems 'obsolete' and deliver a nuclear strike.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/196621

What's there to fear ?

According to most posters here on this forum...made in China means useless plastics and we were not capable of innovation ...what's on the video is probably fake and heading to Walmart for $1 for your Christmas stuffings

Lifting the embargo to sell arms to Vietnam is almost the same scenario that the USA did with Saddam in the 80s to counter Iran and that didn't end up well with that interference ...and chemical weapons given

As angry Myanmar protestors have stinging reactions in Myanmar today over USA's envoy comments that the minority Muslims should have the right to call themselves Rohingyas ...

USA should be mindful how it treat its "allies" as the positives of last month may turn into a negative today ...again the gaffe of foreign policy here shows the lack of depth in understanding the region's geo powers and intricacies ...sailing the patrol in SCS this month is one thing , keeping that up for years is another

It probably works just as well as the below fantasy. The obviously don't have the brightest people in the propaganda ministry or are the masses really that dumb?

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1580226/shanghai-san-francisco-100-minutes-chinese-supersonic-submarine