SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[Grouse]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK ?

[Caps]

Look, I really don't want to get into a fight over this!

Do you understand the difference between de facto and de jure?

Someone may in fact be a refugee (de facto) but they do not become recognised as a refugee (de jure) until due process is completed. Until then, they are classified as asylum seekers.

Nothing to get vexed about ?

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_seeker

Thanks for coming down from the ivory tower and enlightening all of us

[SheungWan]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time.ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

If there is one thing that is losing the BREXITeers the vote it is ridiculous contributions such as the above. Keep it up!

[phrodan]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK ?

He's not capable. He takes pride in sticking to his vexatious fixed positions. You are wasting your time engaging with him.

He's the type that posts images such as the one just above putting words into the mouths of British soldiers in the trenches - thinking that cheap, deranged photoshopping supports his argument. He'll now be sitting in front of his PC thinking that he's oh, so clever. So lets go back to the OP -

Ask this question of the Allied troops in the trenches -

Would you vote for a political and economic union that brought peace to Europe?

1. Yes.

2. No.

It would be a 99.1% yes vote.

The 0.9% no vote would be a bunch of vexatious Yorkshiremen who'd rather fight to the death than admit they are wrong.

[dick dasterdly]

At the end of the day we can vote the Brit. govt. out every 4 years - whereas this may be our last chance to get out of the EU.

I've made it clear that I think the EU has far better policies than the Brit. govts. when it comes to workers' rights, which is why I (generally) prefer EU policies.

But the EU needs to make itself more accountable to the population - and I'm sorry, voting for EMPs doesn't cut it...

The whole thing is a nightmare - some countries follow the rules, others don't/some countries should never have been allowed entry in the first place (and cost the actual paying members a whole lot more when they crash)/rules are brought into place to satisfy wealthy interest groups etc. etc. etc.

This will probably be our ONLY chance to force the EU into reform - unless it crashes on its own anyway....

Having said this, there's a more than likely chance that in the event of a Brit. 'exit' vote, they'll only reform the things I like about the EU - not the things I dislike - the cost/wasted money/EMPs salaries etc.

[allanos]

At the end of the day we can vote the Brit. govt. out every 4 years - whereas this may be our last chance to get out of the EU.

I've made it clear that I think the EU has far better policies than the Brit. govts. when it comes to workers' rights, which is why I (generally) prefer EU policies.

But the EU needs to make itself more accountable to the population - and I'm sorry, voting for EMPs doesn't cut it...

The whole thing is a nightmare - some countries follow the rules, others don't/some countries should never have been allowed entry in the first place (and cost the actual paying members a whole lot more when they crash)/rules are brought into place to satisfy wealthy interest groups etc. etc. etc.

This will probably be our ONLY chance to force the EU into reform - unless it crashes on its own anyway....

Having said this, there's a more than likely chance that in the event of a Brit. 'exit' vote, they'll only reform the things I like about the EU - not the things I dislike - the cost/wasted money/EMPs salaries etc.

The Euro (currency) is going to fall, anyway; it is a foregone conclusion. The question is, will it be a soft or a hard landing? If the UK remains in the EU, and given "ever closer union" there is every chance that the UK will adopt the Euro as its currency in future. If it doesn't, the potential is that the Pound will become too strong against the Euro, and British export goods will become too expensive in the European Union, bringing with it unsustainable trade imbalances for Britain. With that in mind, what price having holdings or assets or cash, or pensions, denominated in falling euros, once Britain has adopted the euro?

Strategically, should Brexit take hold and win the referendum and the United Kingdom withdraws from the European Union, there is every chance that the EU will fracture and then collapse, as it will not be able to take the strain nor fill the void of a British withdrawal. In this scenario, although it will be extremely messy, there would be every opportunity for the stronger (northern) nations of Europe, together with Britain, to form a new economic alliance, with checks and balances built in to prevent a future formation of something akin to the present European Union, and to the benefit of all of its citizens.

[Thaiwine]

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK ?

He's not capable. He takes pride in sticking to his vexatious fixed positions. You are wasting your time engaging with him.

He's the type that posts images such as the one just above putting words into the mouths of British soldiers in the trenches - thinking that cheap, deranged photoshopping supports his argument. He'll now be sitting in front of his PC thinking that he's oh, so clever. So lets go back to the OP -

Ask this question of the Allied troops in the trenches -

Would you vote for a political and economic union that brought peace to Europe?

1. Yes.

2. No.

It would be a 99.1% yes vote.

The 0.9% no vote would be a bunch of vexatious Yorkshiremen who'd rather fight to the death than admit they are wrong.

It would seem presumptuous to speak for 5.7 million people who can't be asked.

[dick dasterdly]

At the end of the day we can vote the Brit. govt. out every 4 years - whereas this may be our last chance to get out of the EU.

I've made it clear that I think the EU has far better policies than the Brit. govts. when it comes to workers' rights, which is why I (generally) prefer EU policies.

But the EU needs to make itself more accountable to the population - and I'm sorry, voting for EMPs doesn't cut it...

The whole thing is a nightmare - some countries follow the rules, others don't/some countries should never have been allowed entry in the first place (and cost the actual paying members a whole lot more when they crash)/rules are brought into place to satisfy wealthy interest groups etc. etc. etc.

This will probably be our ONLY chance to force the EU into reform - unless it crashes on its own anyway....

Having said this, there's a more than likely chance that in the event of a Brit. 'exit' vote, they'll only reform the things I like about the EU - not the things I dislike - the cost/wasted money/EMPs salaries etc.

The Euro (currency) is going to fall, anyway; it is a foregone conclusion. The question is, will it be a soft or a hard landing? If the UK remains in the EU,

and given "ever closer union" there is every chance that the UK will adopt the Euro as its currency in future. If it doesn't, the potential is that the Pound will

become too strong against the Euro, and British export goods will become too expensive in the European Union, bringing with it unsustainable trade

imbalances for Britain. With that in mind, what price having holdings or assets or cash, or pensions, denominated in falling euros, once Britain has adopted the euro?

Strategically, should Brexit take hold and win the referendum and the United Kingdom withdraws from the European Union, there is every chance that the EU

will fracture and then collapse, as it will not be able to take the strain nor fill the void of a British withdrawal. In this scenario, although it will be extremely messy,

there would be every opportunity for the stronger (northern) nations of Europe, together with Britain, to form a new economic alliance, with checks

and balances built in to prevent a future formation of something akin to the present European Union, and to the benefit of all of its citizens.

My first thought on reading the sentence " If the UK remains in the EU and given "ever closer union" there is every chance that the UK will adopt the Euro as its currency in future"

was - 'reactionary rubbish' - but reading it again (intending to reply that Britain was unlikely to adopt the Euro) and then again, I realised that I'd been too 'gung ho', and actually I agree with your post.

[cumgranosalum]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time.ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

like most of your comments they are just random statements based on your personal prejudices rather than any real logic or thought or basis, which no doubt is why you have posted such an insult to the millions who died ALL OVER EUROPE to establish a free democratic continent. One of the main reasons for the EU was and still is to prevent any such repetition of the hostilities that twice ripped Europe apart in the 20th century - to claim it was the "English" versus the rest is just to insult the millions who died in those wars.

You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

[jvs]

I mentioned earlier on that if the UK remains the Euro sooner or later will be an issue to be dealt with.

Any one who is convinced the Euro is going to fail is going to vote for exit?

It is only logical that If the UK stays in the union it will start using the Euro.

All in or all out?

In that case there a few more countries who will also have to adopt the Euro and imo that would be the right thing to do.

Exchange rates can and will be settled in due time.

[WhamBam]

Another thing I've noticed about Brexiteers is that they seem to think that they can have their cake and eat it.

Take Nontabury for instance - does he seriously think that UK will retain the same levels of trade with the EU if we are not a member? but when I point out that international road transport will suffer, he starts talking "scaremonger" as in plagues and earth quakes.

Will Japan continue to increase involvement in the car industry when UK is outside? No of course not....but Nontabury talks about plagues etc "What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!"

Not exactly a counter argument by any definition, but pretty obviously a case of believing one can have one's cake and eat?

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

*****

- I would take issue with every point you make - your premises are shaky in the extreme and without any reasonable foundation. They fly in the face of common sense.......you seem to have some vague idea that “things were better before” - which is of course totally incorrect and one can never go back to the past - especially one that never existed.

Nissan - yes- they did and I covered that - essentially this is the usual diplomatic approach of the Japanese...... just check what the Japanese said/say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment this year.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Yes- they did and I covered that earlier - just check what the Japanese say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment last year alone.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Now as for your call to trade with “Canada, New Zealand and Australia”

Firstly look at the size of the market,

Canada - 36 million

New Zealand - 4.5 million

Australia - 23 million

EU over half a BILLION!

then look at the distances - UK is PART of Europe, the countries you talk about are scattered all over the planet; we are thousands of miles from those markets - what are we going to sell them anyway that they can’t get closer to home??

BTW - You will note too that ALL Japanese motor manufacturing has or will cease in Australia within the next year. Despite what they said about 4 years ago - it doesn’t take long to announce a change in policy in diplomatic terms.

“Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.?”

No but going back to your better times....do you remember how much a BMW/Mercedes/Citroen/Volvos used to cost compared to a similar model built in UK back in the 60s?- all cars built in Europe had a duty slapped on them to protect the British motor industry. They were phenomenally expensive. .... and of course in many countries (e.g. Thailand) still have a huge tax loading on their prices- so yes they will still sell BMWs but don’t expect the price to remain the same. The car market and cars available will take on the appearance of the Thai market, with tax incentives for the Japanese factories to continue making vehicles but in reduced capacity for a “home market”.

Britain is no longer a manufacturing country - it isn’t going to change back by leaving the EU, it is just going to reduce it’s potential service economy and have to introduce import duties to protect what ever manufacturing remains after major companies sift to the EU mainland.

As for agriculture - some of the biggest sufferers will be the farmers who have benefitted from EU support for decades and a market that supports farmers - they will either have to be subsidized by the UK government or compete on price alone.

One thing you can be sure of border controls, duties and resulting increased transport costs will QUICKLY reduce the variety of gods (including Spanish tomatoes and Oranges - on the supermarket shelves. AGAIN do you remember in “times gone by “? The range of foods we had on our shop shelves - (we didn’t even have supermarkets in most towns. So if you think food will remain the same, you are in for a MAJOR disappointment.

Package Holidays?

Now where have you been? I used to run a low cost resort in Spain and the package holidays you talk about are in real trouble -they can’t pare down costs enough........ the only way they were able to run was cheap flights and bus services down to Spain. Both of these will disappear within 2 years of joining, there will no longer be a borderless route between UK and Spain the processing at borders will increase both time and costs and of course we will have to see how the pound progresses - they may just become to expensive for us.

The original package holidays started when the UK had a considerably more expensive COL than Spain and fuel for flights was nothing. That kind of holiday is a tiny portion of the market - when was the last time you visited Benidorm?

All these so called “markets” you talk about are in fact much smaller than you seem to realise - Spain doesn’t need UK tourists - they have a huge market from all over the EU - just look at the Thai tourist market - a decade ago Westerners were number one now it is Russia and China -

Exit the EU Spain will keep their holidays but they will finish with the UK.

As for scare mongering - that is just a cliché, a sound-bite used by those without a real argument.

The truth is we will HAVE to trade with Europe - but if we leave it will not be a PART of Europe, it will be as an unpopular outsider.

We have 2 years to negotiate out and then as long as we want to re-negotiate the thousands of deals with have become accustomed to, and from a position of disadvantage - who in there right mind would do that?

things change, there is no “golden era” we can return to...

We can happily trade apparently.........

Some of the most eminent legal experts in the field (of trading in and outside the E.U.), the Lawyers for Britain research discredits claims by Chancellor George Osborne that the UK would find it “very difficult” to renegotiate trade deals with 27 EU members and 50 global trading partners.

Director-general Martin Littlewood said: “This nails the lie from the Remain camp that if we were to leave the EU Britain would find itself at ground zero, or year zero.

“In fact, we would have in place nearly all the arrangements that we could possibly want and we would have plenty of time to exercise flexibility from there.”

Britain is already a signatory to more than 50 trade deals of varying degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside Europe.

They include tariff-free South Korea and Switzerland, both top 10 trading partners for the UK.

Along the same lines, here is some other news on the trade front from Martin Howe QC, one of Britain’s leading EU experts.

He says “Britain would have existing trade deals in place” from the first day after Brexit."

Britain is already a signatory to more than 50 trade deals of varying degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside Europe.

They include tariff-free South Korea and Switzerland, both top 10 trading partners for the UK. And exports to South Korea account for a £5billion boon to Britain’s economy every year while those to Switzerland represent £7.3billion.

You see, far from believing the U.K. will crash and burn in the trade world, there are plenty of opportunities.

Maybe some 'Doom and Gloom' people should realise the U.K. has a life - a Trade Life - outside the E.U.

And you say about this "Golden Era". Well, it seems we can have a Golden Era outside of the E.U.

[allanos]

I refer to an earlier post by Congranosalum.

No more oranges from Seville? How sad!

South Africa, with an exchange rate of ZAR 23.00 = GBP 1, would willingly step into the breach with unsurpassed agricultural produce (remember Outspan

oranges?), or, indeed, Jaffa oranges from Israel (British Muslims might not be too happy, of course)? These products would find themselves onto your

table at even lower prices than today.

However, do you seriously think that Spain will let an important market like the United Kingdom, go begging?

How "unpopular" do you think we will be with Germany, once outside of Europe? They will HAVE to trade with Britain - it is a two-way street.

The reality of the world today is that EVERYTHING, is negotiable. If you are not aware of that at this stage, then you must remain in ignorance, I'm

afraid. I could go on and on, but it is probably a futile exercise.

Your arguments are far too simplistic, unfortunately, although they are couched in erudition. So much of your dialogue is cloaked in "fear", despite

your calling it a cliché, that it loses any real significance in this debate.

[dick dasterdly]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time.ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

like most of your comments they are just random statements based on your personal prejudices rather than any real logic or thought or basis, which no doubt is why you have posted such an insult to the millions who died ALL OVER EUROPE to establish a free democratic continent. One of the main reasons for the EU was and still is to prevent any such repetition of the hostilities that twice ripped Europe apart in the 20th century - to claim it was the "English" versus the rest is just to insult the millions who died in those wars.

You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

Re. the emboldend part -Good point - I think it was the Russians who largely died?

Edit - although I think that may be a touch too ironic for you to understand.

[Grouse]

Look, I really don't want to get into a fight over this!

Do you understand the difference between de facto and de jure?

Someone may in fact be a refugee (de facto) but they do not become recognised as a refugee (de jure) until due process is completed. Until then, they are classified as asylum seekers.

Nothing to get vexed about ?

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_seeker

Thanks for coming down from the ivory tower and enlightening all of us

I hope that isn't sarcasm?

I am trying to be objective and polite.

do try and be courteous in return ?

[Grouse]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

I would be keeping an eye on who is declaring war on whom? Did you read "The Sleepwalkers"? It concerns the run up to the First World War. Great read. Who would you blame for the war? Are you sure? The book concludes the various powers walked into it as if asleep. Totally unnecessary and all about competing nation states. YOU HAVE TO READ THE HISTORY! Perfidious Albion? More like perfidious France!

The French had a strategic alliance with the Russians. Russia militarising fast and building railways to the West rapidly. The French had the most powerful army at the time. Mutual defence partnership! What would you do if you were Kaiser? We only got dragged in because the Germans sensibly marched into Belgium to get France the easy way!

Note the rapprochement between the Germans and French today, the centenary of Verdan.

We REALLY don't want to go back to all that stuff. Please ?

AND don't forget, Verseilles was the key issue which enabled Hitler's rise to power.

I'm shutting down the loudspeakers from my ivory tower now ?

[midas]

BREXIT THE MOVIE FULL FILM

According to this very insightful movie there are not hundreds but TEN thousand staff members at the EU who earn a salary greater than the British Prime Minister David Cameron

[Grouse]

I mentioned earlier on that if the UK remains the Euro sooner or later will be an issue to be dealt with.

Any one who is convinced the Euro is going to fail is going to vote for exit?

It is only logical that If the UK stays in the union it will start using the Euro.

All in or all out?

In that case there a few more countries who will also have to adopt the Euro and imo that would be the right thing to do.

Exchange rates can and will be settled in due time.

The U.K. Will not start using the Euro UNLESS, multiple equalisation issues are put in place. That may never happen

We opted out of the "Ever closer union" clauses

[Grouse]

Another thing I've noticed about Brexiteers is that they seem to think that they can have their cake and eat it.

Take Nontabury for instance - does he seriously think that UK will retain the same levels of trade with the EU if we are not a member? but when I point out that international road transport will suffer, he starts talking "scaremonger" as in plagues and earth quakes.

Will Japan continue to increase involvement in the car industry when UK is outside? No of course not....but Nontabury talks about plagues etc "What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!"

Not exactly a counter argument by any definition, but pretty obviously a case of believing one can have one's cake and eat?

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

*****

- I would take issue with every point you make - your premises are shaky in the extreme and without any reasonable foundation. They fly in the face of common sense.......you seem to have some vague idea that things were better before - which is of course totally incorrect and one can never go back to the past - especially one that never existed.

Nissan - yes- they did and I covered that - essentially this is the usual diplomatic approach of the Japanese...... just check what the Japanese said/say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment this year.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Yes- they did and I covered that earlier - just check what the Japanese say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment last year alone.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Now as for your call to trade with Canada, New Zealand and Australia

Firstly look at the size of the market,

Canada - 36 million

New Zealand - 4.5 million

Australia - 23 million

EU over half a BILLION!

then look at the distances - UK is PART of Europe, the countries you talk about are scattered all over the planet; we are thousands of miles from those markets - what are we going to sell them anyway that they cant get closer to home??

BTW - You will note too that ALL Japanese motor manufacturing has or will cease in Australia within the next year. Despite what they said about 4 years ago - it doesnt take long to announce a change in policy in diplomatic terms.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.?

No but going back to your better times....do you remember how much a BMW/Mercedes/Citroen/Volvos used to cost compared to a similar model built in UK back in the 60s?- all cars built in Europe had a duty slapped on them to protect the British motor industry. They were phenomenally expensive. .... and of course in many countries (e.g. Thailand) still have a huge tax loading on their prices- so yes they will still sell BMWs but dont expect the price to remain the same. The car market and cars available will take on the appearance of the Thai market, with tax incentives for the Japanese factories to continue making vehicles but in reduced capacity for a home market.

Britain is no longer a manufacturing country - it isnt going to change back by leaving the EU, it is just going to reduce its potential service economy and have to introduce import duties to protect what ever manufacturing remains after major companies sift to the EU mainland.

As for agriculture - some of the biggest sufferers will be the farmers who have benefitted from EU support for decades and a market that supports farmers - they will either have to be subsidized by the UK government or compete on price alone.

One thing you can be sure of border controls, duties and resulting increased transport costs will QUICKLY reduce the variety of gods (including Spanish tomatoes and Oranges - on the supermarket shelves. AGAIN do you remember in times gone by ? The range of foods we had on our shop shelves - (we didnt even have supermarkets in most towns. So if you think food will remain the same, you are in for a MAJOR disappointment.

Package Holidays?

Now where have you been? I used to run a low cost resort in Spain and the package holidays you talk about are in real trouble -they cant pare down costs enough........ the only way they were able to run was cheap flights and bus services down to Spain. Both of these will disappear within 2 years of joining, there will no longer be a borderless route between UK and Spain the processing at borders will increase both time and costs and of course we will have to see how the pound progresses - they may just become to expensive for us.

The original package holidays started when the UK had a considerably more expensive COL than Spain and fuel for flights was nothing. That kind of holiday is a tiny portion of the market - when was the last time you visited Benidorm?

All these so called markets you talk about are in fact much smaller than you seem to realise - Spain doesnt need UK tourists - they have a huge market from all over the EU - just look at the Thai tourist market - a decade ago Westerners were number one now it is Russia and China -

Exit the EU Spain will keep their holidays but they will finish with the UK.

As for scare mongering - that is just a cliché, a sound-bite used by those without a real argument.

The truth is we will HAVE to trade with Europe - but if we leave it will not be a PART of Europe, it will be as an unpopular outsider.

We have 2 years to negotiate out and then as long as we want to re-negotiate the thousands of deals with have become accustomed to, and from a position of disadvantage - who in there right mind would do that?

things change, there is no golden era we can return to...

We can happily trade apparently.........

Some of the most eminent legal experts in the field (of trading in and outside the E.U.), the Lawyers for Britain research discredits claims by Chancellor George Osborne that the UK would find it very difficult to renegotiate trade deals with 27 EU members and 50 global trading partners.

Director-general Martin Littlewood said: This nails the lie from the Remain camp that if we were to leave the EU Britain would find itself at ground zero, or year zero.

In fact, we would have in place nearly all the arrangements that we could possibly want and we would have plenty of time to exercise flexibility from there.

Britain is already a signatory to more than 50 trade deals of varying degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside Europe.

They include tariff-free South Korea and Switzerland, both top 10 trading partners for the UK.

Along the same lines, here is some other news on the trade front from Martin Howe QC, one of Britains leading EU experts.

He says Britain would have existing trade deals in place from the first day after Brexit."

Britain is already a signatory to more than 50 trade deals of varying degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside Europe.

They include tariff-free South Korea and Switzerland, both top 10 trading partners for the UK. And exports to South Korea account for a £5billion boon to Britains economy every year while those to Switzerland represent £7.3billion.

You see, far from believing the U.K. will crash and burn in the trade world, there are plenty of opportunities.

Maybe some 'Doom and Gloom' people should realise the U.K. has a life - a Trade Life - outside the E.U.

And you say about this "Golden Era". Well, it seems we can have a Golden Era outside of the E.U.

Oh dear

As you nicely confirm, these are EU deals. What makes you think we can sit on EU coat tails after a Brexit? Let's get real here! I don't know Martin Howe; is he related to Geoffrey?

I see he's mostly known for wanting to get rid of the European Court of Human Rights (presumably to be replaced by a Westminster court of no human rights whatsoever unless one has pots of money!)

[Grouse]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time.ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

like most of your comments they are just random statements based on your personal prejudices rather than any real logic or thought or basis, which no doubt is why you have posted such an insult to the millions who died ALL OVER EUROPE to establish a free democratic continent. One of the main reasons for the EU was and still is to prevent any such repetition of the hostilities that twice ripped Europe apart in the 20th century - to claim it was the "English" versus the rest is just to insult the millions who died in those wars.

You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

Re. the emboldend part -Good point - I think it was the Russians who largely died?

Edit - although I think that may be a touch too ironic for you to understand.

I think your confusing with Second World War where USSR took the biggest losses by miles. 27M total losses.

WW1 very roughly, troops only

Germans 2M, AustriaHungary 1M, Russians 1.75M, French 1.25M, British 0.75M

Of course the Russians left in 1917 and the Americans came to "win" the 1914-18 war in 1918.

Interesting that you all think the First World War was to establish a free and democratic Europe! It was to establish hegemony and use that to build empires!

[Grouse]

BREXIT THE MOVIE FULL FILM

According to this very insightful movie there are not hundreds but TEN thousand staff members at the EU who earn a salary greater than the British Prime Minister David Cameron

For gods sake, we've seen this thin propaganda over and over. OK?

I understand you buy it. Good for you!

Now move on!

BTW, I make more money than Cameron's salary. So what? You want to borrow 20 Baht?

[Grouse]

I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember an ancient adult computer game called Leisure Suit Larry?

To play, one had to answer a number of questions correctly to gain access!

I think votes should be online and require passing some general knowledge questions such as British history!

Any takers??

No, thought not ?

[Grouse]

BREXIT THE MOVIE FULL FILM

According to this very insightful movie there are not hundreds but TEN thousand staff members at the EU who earn a salary greater than the British Prime Minister David Cameron

For gods sake, we've seen this thin propaganda over and over. OK?

I understand you buy it. Good for you!

Now move on!

BTW, I make more money than Cameron's salary. So what? You want to borrow 20 Baht?

Actually, better to pay very high salaries and demand the highest standards of rectitude in return

[midas]

BREXIT THE MOVIE FULL FILM

According to this very insightful movie there are not hundreds but TEN thousand staff members at the EU who earn a salary greater than the British Prime Minister David Cameron

For gods sake, we've seen this thin propaganda over and over. OK?

I understand you buy it. Good for you!

Now move on!

BTW, I make more money than Cameron's salary. So what? You want to borrow 20 Baht?

Thin propaganda? You must be joking

I certainly don’t buy the crap you have perpetuated over 60 pages

and before I retired I also made considerably more than Cameron’s salary but the difference being I was productive because I owned my own company? Unlike these moronic leeches. What’s your point?

[chiang mai]

Oh dear

As you nicely confirm, these are EU deals. What makes you think we can sit on EU coat tails after a Brexit? Let's get real here! I don't know Martin Howe; is he related to Geoffrey?

I see he's mostly known for wanting to get rid of the European Court of Human Rights (presumably to be replaced by a Westminster court of no human rights whatsoever unless one has pots of money!)

Please don't write the words, "Oh dear", it confuses some posters who think we must be related.

[Grouse]

BREXIT THE MOVIE FULL FILM

According to this very insightful movie there are not hundreds but TEN thousand staff members at the EU who earn a salary greater than the British Prime Minister David Cameron

For gods sake, we've seen this thin propaganda over and over. OK?

I understand you buy it. Good for you!

Now move on!

BTW, I make more money than Cameron's salary. So what? You want to borrow 20 Baht?

Thin propaganda? You must be joking

I certainly dont buy the crap you have perpetuated over 60 pages

and before I retired I also made considerably more than Camerons salary but the difference being I was productive because I owned my own company? Unlike these moronic leeches. Whats your point?

Steady on! You may not agree with my views. Fine. But please try and show some common courtesy. Thank you

This propaganda is just that. Propaganda. Why can't the Brexit people get substantive support.

I'm glad you made a decent salary. You help make my point. The issue is that Cameron's salary is much to low

[Grouse]

Oh dear

As you nicely confirm, these are EU deals. What makes you think we can sit on EU coat tails after a Brexit? Let's get real here! I don't know Martin Howe; is he related to Geoffrey?

I see he's mostly known for wanting to get rid of the European Court of Human Rights (presumably to be replaced by a Westminster court of no human rights whatsoever unless one has pots of money!)

Please don't write the words, "Oh dear", it confuses some posters who think we must be related.

Haha! Kor tod Krub!

[Thaiwine]

I just watched this vid presented by Andrea Leadsom the minister for energy,

She answered some of my questions even the point of passporting by the city banks.

[sawadee1947]

Yeah you are right laddie

You don't have anything good for EU

Is there something the world would need from UK?

[Thaiwine]

Yeah you are right laddie

You don't have anything good for EU

Is there something the world would need from UK?

I'm guessing that was aimed at me,

It seems a strange question you could say the same about any country in the world, is there something the world needs from them?

Also on the contrary not everything was bad from the EU, please don't ask me to name them but I'm sure there must be some.

[Linzz]

Tax ID numbers for everyone.

The EU is laying the groundwork for everyone in Europe to be given a new tax ID number in preparation for moving to electronic money. They are using a National Insurance number pretense to disguise the real objective. This scheme was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last week. This is another step in the federalization of Europe and even the British will have to comply. Naturally, nobody will report this in Britain because it obviously calls for a European Taxpayer Identification Number to keep track of every EU citizen, which include the British. The actual European Commission text reads:

“Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.”

This covert maneuver calls for the EU to take over member states’ corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base for Europe as a whole. The British corporations are suddenly going to taste the bitter bite of European socialism and watch their taxes sky-rocket. That should help increase unemployment in Britain at a far faster pace than expected. This new legislation is banning sovereign member states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. Brussels is eliminating independence within Europe on taxes and this enables Brussels to be handed the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax and to prevent competitive taxation to lure in companies from other members to help reduce local unemployment.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/eu-passed-tax-id-numbers-for-everyone/

BIG Brother anyone?