SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[chiang mai]

Sounds like we just agreed the thread should be closed, well done!

Out

[Scott]

Inflammatory post removed.

[brewsterbudgen]

Anyway, I just voted today (by postal proxy). So REMAIN has at least one vote.

[Thaiwine]

I'm in the UK, what strikes me as I drive around the city I live in, is that there are no posters car stickers billboard adverts that I have seen, it's very much like it's not happening.

I don't watch the telly so can't comment about that.

[Thaiwine]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

[Thaiwine]

Anyone know if there's any truth in this:

http://truth-wars.co.uk/forum/constitutional-reference/damning-letter-from-lord-kilmuir-to-edward-heath/

[WhamBam]

All you truckers out their..wave good-bye to continental work as Britain's trade with Europe slides away. bye-bye Eddie Stobbart

All you car workers - the only reason that Japanese manufacturers have plants in UK is so they have a foothold in the EU to avoid the restrictions on imports of vehicles from outside the EU. just like Thailand where thanks to the current admin investment is down by 81%, so the Uk will suffer the same as manu multi-nationals lose interest in investing in a country that doesn't have the benefits of being inside the EU.

...and while you're at it say good-bye to London as one of the top financial centres in the world - that accolade will finally go to Germany

What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!

Another thing I've noticed about Brexiteers is that they seem to think that they can have their cake and eat it.

Take Nontabury for instance - does he seriously think that UK will retain the same levels of trade with the EU if we are not a member? but when I point out that international road transport will suffer, he starts talking "scaremonger" as in plagues and earth quakes.

Will Japan continue to increase involvement in the car industry when UK is outside? No of course not....but Nontabury talks about plagues etc "What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!"

Not exactly a counter argument by any definition, but pretty obviously a case of believing one can have one's cake and eat?

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

[SheungWan]

Yes, a thought that no one wants to think about, it would mean that migration figures are not confined to the issue of the EU.

I grew up in the north of Scotland during the fifties and the town where I lived had a fairly large Polish community. There had been a camp nearby during the war and many had stayed put after the war, integrating into the local community.

Now, according to the likes of Nigel Farage, their offspring and anyone else with a Polish name is perceived as being nothing more than a parasite on the UK welfare system.

"The first Polish troops reach Scotland on 5 August 1940 with a concurrent Anglo-Polish Military Agreement regulating the conditions of Polish Military Service in the UK. Scotland was completely unprotected against invasion and under real threat of German attacks, and the newly-arrived Poles were warmly welcomed. They immediately set to work defending Scotland. There was, however, no military infrastructure to accommodate them and they were left in our inhospitable climate, largely to their own devices, to live in tents, build their own camps, patrol the coastline and build coastal defences. These Polish Service men and women made a lasting impression in Scotland during those early years. They could be seen in Cupar, Leven, Milnathort,Auchtermuchty, Crawford, Biggar, Douglas, Duns, Kelso, Forres, Perth, Tayport, Lossiemouth, Arbroath, Forfar, and Carnoustie. There were Polish Schools of Engineering, a Polish Staff College, a Polish Record Office and a Polish Parachute Training School."

http://www.makers.org.uk/place/PolishInScotland2WW

I also grew up in a small town in the North of Scotland where Free Polish forces were camped.

Many of the local men went to fight in France with the 51St Highland division, my grandfather amongst them.

They would be turning in their graves now if they knew how the traitorous politicians are so willing to hand over total control of their country to some anti democratic, elitist beaurocrats based in Brussels.

They were fighting for freedom trying to defeat tyranny., please don't let their sacrifice be in vain by pandering to new tyrants.

So the main issues in this referendum is sovereignty and democracy.

Choice is simple, have your own democratic government that can be voted out or be stuck with an unelected one which you can't remove. Immigration numbers and all the other issues will be resolved after Brexit.

Then you should realise that if it had all been about individual sovereignty in the 40's then we would have been in an EU dictatorship since then and speaking German.

The grass is never greener on the other side.

One wonders whether the historical predecessors of the BREXIT crowd would have welcomed those fighters who would have been refugees of course and on top of that have gone to war over the issue of Poland. A little matter of European solidarity.

[cumgranosalum]

All you truckers out their..wave good-bye to continental work as Britain's trade with Europe slides away. bye-bye Eddie Stobbart

All you car workers - the only reason that Japanese manufacturers have plants in UK is so they have a foothold in the EU to avoid the restrictions on imports of vehicles from outside the EU. just like Thailand where thanks to the current admin investment is down by 81%, so the Uk will suffer the same as manu multi-nationals lose interest in investing in a country that doesn't have the benefits of being inside the EU.

...and while you're at it say good-bye to London as one of the top financial centres in the world - that accolade will finally go to Germany

What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!

Another thing I've noticed about Brexiteers is that they seem to think that they can have their cake and eat it.

Take Nontabury for instance - does he seriously think that UK will retain the same levels of trade with the EU if we are not a member? but when I point out that international road transport will suffer, he starts talking "scaremonger" as in plagues and earth quakes.

Will Japan continue to increase involvement in the car industry when UK is outside? No of course not....but Nontabury talks about plagues etc "What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!"

Not exactly a counter argument by any definition, but pretty obviously a case of believing one can have one's cake and eat?

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

*****

- I would take issue with every point you make - your premises are shaky in the extreme and without any reasonable foundation. They fly in the face of common sense.......you seem to have some vague idea that “things were better before” - which is of course totally incorrect and one can never go back to the past - especially one that never existed.

Nissan - yes- they did and I covered that - essentially this is the usual diplomatic approach of the Japanese...... just check what the Japanese said/say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment this year.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Yes- they did and I covered that earlier - just check what the Japanese say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment last year alone.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Now as for your call to trade with “Canada, New Zealand and Australia”

Firstly look at the size of the market,

Canada - 36 million

New Zealand - 4.5 million

Australia - 23 million

EU over half a BILLION!

then look at the distances - UK is PART of Europe, the countries you talk about are scattered all over the planet; we are thousands of miles from those markets - what are we going to sell them anyway that they can’t get closer to home??

BTW - You will note too that ALL Japanese motor manufacturing has or will cease in Australia within the next year. Despite what they said about 4 years ago - it doesn’t take long to announce a change in policy in diplomatic terms.

“Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.?”

No but going back to your better times....do you remember how much a BMW/Mercedes/Citroen/Volvos used to cost compared to a similar model built in UK back in the 60s?- all cars built in Europe had a duty slapped on them to protect the British motor industry. They were phenomenally expensive. .... and of course in many countries (e.g. Thailand) still have a huge tax loading on their prices- so yes they will still sell BMWs but don’t expect the price to remain the same. The car market and cars available will take on the appearance of the Thai market, with tax incentives for the Japanese factories to continue making vehicles but in reduced capacity for a “home market”.

Britain is no longer a manufacturing country - it isn’t going to change back by leaving the EU, it is just going to reduce it’s potential service economy and have to introduce import duties to protect what ever manufacturing remains after major companies sift to the EU mainland.

As for agriculture - some of the biggest sufferers will be the farmers who have benefitted from EU support for decades and a market that supports farmers - they will either have to be subsidized by the UK government or compete on price alone.

One thing you can be sure of border controls, duties and resulting increased transport costs will QUICKLY reduce the variety of gods (including Spanish tomatoes and Oranges - on the supermarket shelves. AGAIN do you remember in “times gone by “? The range of foods we had on our shop shelves - (we didn’t even have supermarkets in most towns. So if you think food will remain the same, you are in for a MAJOR disappointment.

Package Holidays?

Now where have you been? I used to run a low cost resort in Spain and the package holidays you talk about are in real trouble -they can’t pare down costs enough........ the only way they were able to run was cheap flights and bus services down to Spain. Both of these will disappear within 2 years of joining, there will no longer be a borderless route between UK and Spain the processing at borders will increase both time and costs and of course we will have to see how the pound progresses - they may just become to expensive for us.

The original package holidays started when the UK had a considerably more expensive COL than Spain and fuel for flights was nothing. That kind of holiday is a tiny portion of the market - when was the last time you visited Benidorm?

All these so called “markets” you talk about are in fact much smaller than you seem to realise - Spain doesn’t need UK tourists - they have a huge market from all over the EU - just look at the Thai tourist market - a decade ago Westerners were number one now it is Russia and China -

Exit the EU Spain will keep their holidays but they will finish with the UK.

As for scare mongering - that is just a cliché, a sound-bite used by those without a real argument.

The truth is we will HAVE to trade with Europe - but if we leave it will not be a PART of Europe, it will be as an unpopular outsider.

We have 2 years to negotiate out and then as long as we want to re-negotiate the thousands of deals with have become accustomed to, and from a position of disadvantage - who in there right mind would do that?

things change, there is no “golden era” we can return to...

[cumgranosalum]

You need to be more critical about how you watch TV...if you think that is A lesson in history - it is a lesson in spin....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics.

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

You need to be more critical about how you watch TV...if you think that is A lesson in history - it is a lesson in spin....it takes the notion of "Nation" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees...

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics.

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

[cumgranosalum]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

[cumgranosalum]

https://www.facebook.com/AustraliaLoveItOrLeave/videos/1100674393306140/

If anyone is wondering what has this to do with the EU,

Two points-

1/ as the video points out, those poor countries such as in Africa need to be allowed to export their goods,especially agricultural products to Europe, without being subject to custom tariffs as imposed by the EU. In the event of a Brexit the market for these countries would automatically grow by 70 million.

2/ as the Video again explains,much better to encourage their elite to remain in their own country, rather to do a Merkel.

you have a seriously flawed premise or two there - firstly EU actually encourages trade with Africa, secondly, did you seriously think UK would be in a position to allow "free trade" with countries that would seriously undercut their dwindling industries and what do you think we would sell them?

Immigration is not just caused by economics of Africa (often a legacy of UK colonialism), it is caused by the wars US and their allies start largely to protect oil interests which in turn lead to mass migration of ASYLUM seekers, not immigrants - you really should find out who they are first.....or do they all look the same to you

?

Or Refugees even

Absolutely....which we are obliged to deal with as a signatory of various of international organisations - as we are already outside Schengen so there will be o change there.

[sandyf]

The U.K. Joined the Common market in 1973 which after the Lisbon treaty in 2009 morphed into the EU.

What does that have to do with the 1940's and speaking German?

Sorry if it went over your head. You are obviously younger than I am, referring to your grandfather where it would have been my father.

Would your grandfather really have turned his back on those that came to their aid in an hour of need.

The Polish armed forces were the 4th largest military body in WW2 and they with many other Europeans helped prevent a European Union in the 1940's. It would have been compulsory membership, single currency and a single language. Many would benefited from free hair cuts and dental checks while others would have had free clothing complete with jackboots.

Complain about the EU by all means but never forget how the freedom to complain came about.

There is an old saying,'Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.' You cannot do that from a position of isolation.

[sandyf]

Then you should realise that if it had all been about individual sovereignty in the 40's then we would have been in an EU dictatorship since then and speaking German.

The grass is never greener on the other side.

One wonders whether the historical predecessors of the BREXIT crowd would have welcomed those fighters who would have been refugees of course and on top of that have gone to war over the issue of Poland. A little matter of European solidarity.

Following the war the UK sold Poland out to the Russians. Guilty conscience created the Polish Resettlement Act of 1947 which led to mass immigration into the UK.

There is nothing new about immigration.

[cumgranosalum]

Then you should realise that if it had all been about individual sovereignty in the 40's then we would have been in an EU dictatorship since then and speaking German.

The grass is never greener on the other side.

One wonders whether the historical predecessors of the BREXIT crowd would have welcomed those fighters who would have been refugees of course and on top of that have gone to war over the issue of Poland. A little matter of European solidarity.

Following the war the UK sold Poland out to the Russians. Guilty conscience created the Polish Resettlement Act of 1947 which led to mass immigration into the UK.

There is nothing new about immigration.

No it goes back thousands of years.....the main gene-pool in UK is essentially German.....that is European for those who don't know.

[Grouse]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/73018/eu-referendum-stars-for-and-against-brexit#11

It doesn't matter a damn, but here is a list of celebrity intentions. I guessed them 100%. Can you guess what it is that separates the ins from the outs? Clue: Liz Hurley wants proper light bulbs! ?

[Grouse]

Those who try to link "immigration" to EU are in for a disappointment the topic isn't really linked to EU.....it would reduce the amount of tax we get off EU workers but remember that "immigration" as so many naively call it is a combination of various population movements such as asylum seekers, immigrant workers, illegal and legal migrants. The truth is that Uk's responsibility to asylum seekers is on international law that is binding in or out of the EU - so sorry to disappoint all you racists out there but you won't see any changes there.

it will of course affect your ability to go anywhere in Europe and work without resorting to the same kind of visa and property laws you get in Thailand - you'll have the same status.

as for sovereignty....well grow up and get a life - this isn't the 19th century.

Well I think we can take it that Cum---- in referring to those who can think for themselves as "racist", (I'm just surprised he din't add the word bigot) are the fall back words for those who have lost the argument. Especially as he's addressing many people on this forum who are married to Asians as in Thai's.

As for you stating that immigration is not related to the EU, I can only ask " what planet are you living on" it certainly is true that immigration from outside the EU should not be attributed to the EU, but then you have to remember that many of these asylum seekers( economic migrants ) are entering from outside the EU, where instead of being processed in their first EU country ( as per international rules) are instead being waved on to greener pastures.

We're not a Schengen Zone green pasture!

Why WONT Brexiteers take up REAL issues? For example, UK does not monitor who leaves? How can we know not migration without basic data. The Border service is useless

[Grouse]

Those who try to link "immigration" to EU are in for a disappointment the topic isn't really linked to EU.....it would reduce the amount of tax we get off EU workers but remember that "immigration" as so many naively call it is a combination of various population movements such as asylum seekers, immigrant workers, illegal and legal migrants. The truth is that Uk's responsibility to asylum seekers is on international law that is binding in or out of the EU - so sorry to disappoint all you racists out there but you won't see any changes there.

it will of course affect your ability to go anywhere in Europe and work without resorting to the same kind of visa and property laws you get in Thailand - you'll have the same status.

as for sovereignty....well grow up and get a life - this isn't the 19th century.

Well I think we can take it that Cum---- in referring to those who can think for themselves as "racist", (I'm just surprised he din't add the word bigot) are the fall back words for those who have lost the argument. Especially as he's addressing many people on this forum who are married to Asians as in Thai's.

As for you stating that immigration is not related to the EU, I can only ask " what planet are you living on" it certainly is true that immigration from outside the EU should not be attributed to the EU, but then you have to remember that many of these asylum seekers( economic migrants ) are entering from outside the EU, where instead of being processed in their first EU country ( as per international rules) are instead being waved on to greener pastures.

I think this sums up the paucity of thought of this member - "specially as he's addressing many people on this forum who are married to Asians as in Thai's." he clearly considers this racially orientated comment to be some acid test for racism? "I can't be racist because I'm married to an Asian" - can you not see the irony in this????

but then it is of the same quality as the rest of the "non-argument"

Ha! Brilliant

[Grouse]

https://www.facebook.com/AustraliaLoveItOrLeave/videos/1100674393306140/

If anyone is wondering what has this to do with the EU,

Two points-

1/ as the video points out, those poor countries such as in Africa need to be allowed to export their goods,especially agricultural products to Europe, without being subject to custom tariffs as imposed by the EU. In the event of a Brexit the market for these countries would automatically grow by 70 million.

2/ as the Video again explains,much better to encourage their elite to remain in their own country, rather to do a Merkel.

you have a seriously flawed premise or two there - firstly EU actually encourages trade with Africa, secondly, did you seriously think UK would be in a position to allow "free trade" with countries that would seriously undercut their dwindling industries and what do you think we would sell them?

Immigration is not just caused by economics of Africa (often a legacy of UK colonialism), it is caused by the wars US and their allies start largely to protect oil interests which in turn lead to mass migration of ASYLUM seekers, not immigrants - you really should find out who they are first.....or do they all look the same to you

?

Or Refugees even

At least get the terminology correct.

They are asylum seekers UNTIL they are accepted as refugees or rejected and sent packing.

This is an issue that media continually gets incorrect

[Grouse]

All you truckers out their..wave good-bye to continental work as Britain's trade with Europe slides away. bye-bye Eddie Stobbart

All you car workers - the only reason that Japanese manufacturers have plants in UK is so they have a foothold in the EU to avoid the restrictions on imports of vehicles from outside the EU. just like Thailand where thanks to the current admin investment is down by 81%, so the Uk will suffer the same as manu multi-nationals lose interest in investing in a country that doesn't have the benefits of being inside the EU.

...and while you're at it say good-bye to London as one of the top financial centres in the world - that accolade will finally go to Germany

What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!

Another thing I've noticed about Brexiteers is that they seem to think that they can have their cake and eat it.

Take Nontabury for instance - does he seriously think that UK will retain the same levels of trade with the EU if we are not a member? but when I point out that international road transport will suffer, he starts talking "scaremonger" as in plagues and earth quakes.

Will Japan continue to increase involvement in the car industry when UK is outside? No of course not....but Nontabury talks about plagues etc "What about the plague. The earthquake,resulting in the UK sinking into the Atlantic,surely you can make up some more scare stories. Pathetic!!"

Not exactly a counter argument by any definition, but pretty obviously a case of believing one can have one's cake and eat?

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

More buffoonery! It's not about whether Nissan keeps the plant open. It's about where they build the next plant/production line etc. It's called foreign inward investment.

[Caps]

https://www.facebook.com/AustraliaLoveItOrLeave/videos/1100674393306140/

If anyone is wondering what has this to do with the EU,

Two points-

1/ as the video points out, those poor countries such as in Africa need to be allowed to export their goods,especially agricultural products to Europe, without being subject to custom tariffs as imposed by the EU. In the event of a Brexit the market for these countries would automatically grow by 70 million.

2/ as the Video again explains,much better to encourage their elite to remain in their own country, rather to do a Merkel.

you have a seriously flawed premise or two there - firstly EU actually encourages trade with Africa, secondly, did you seriously think UK would be in a position to allow "free trade" with countries that would seriously undercut their dwindling industries and what do you think we would sell them?

Immigration is not just caused by economics of Africa (often a legacy of UK colonialism), it is caused by the wars US and their allies start largely to protect oil interests which in turn lead to mass migration of ASYLUM seekers, not immigrants - you really should find out who they are first.....or do they all look the same to you

?

Or Refugees even

At least get the terminology correct.

They are asylum seekers UNTIL they are accepted as refugees or rejected and sent packing.

This is an issue that media continually gets incorrect

Awesome

[Thaiwine]

Anyone know if there's any truth in this:

http://truth-wars.co.uk/forum/constitutional-reference/damning-letter-from-lord-kilmuir-to-edward-heath/

My first thought on this was that it has to be a forgery, surley no one would be stupid enough to write down that they would be commiting treason to the state even if that was the plan, having googled it, it seem it is in fact genuine, back as far as 1960 when Edward Heath was in charge of negotiations with the EEC he knew that in fact giving sovereignty to the EU, was an act of treason, he spun this as sharing sovereignty, later asked why he decieved the public on the issue he said the public was to stupid to make the right decision, ring any bells?

[Caps]

https://www.facebook.com/AustraliaLoveItOrLeave/videos/1100674393306140/

If anyone is wondering what has this to do with the EU,

Two points-

1/ as the video points out, those poor countries such as in Africa need to be allowed to export their goods,especially agricultural products to Europe, without being subject to custom tariffs as imposed by the EU. In the event of a Brexit the market for these countries would automatically grow by 70 million.

2/ as the Video again explains,much better to encourage their elite to remain in their own country, rather to do a Merkel.

you have a seriously flawed premise or two there - firstly EU actually encourages trade with Africa, secondly, did you seriously think UK would be in a position to allow "free trade" with countries that would seriously undercut their dwindling industries and what do you think we would sell them?

Immigration is not just caused by economics of Africa (often a legacy of UK colonialism), it is caused by the wars US and their allies start largely to protect oil interests which in turn lead to mass migration of ASYLUM seekers, not immigrants - you really should find out who they are first.....or do they all look the same to you

?

Or Refugees even

At least get the terminology correct.

They are asylum seekers UNTIL they are accepted as refugees or rejected and sent packing.

This is an issue that media continually gets incorrect

ref·u·gee

ˌrefyo͝oˈjē/

noun

1. a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

   Which was the point i was making

   a·sy·lum seek·er

   noun

   1. a person who has left their home country as a political refugee and is seeking asylum in another.

      "only asylum seekers who are granted refugee status are allowed to work in the country"

[stag4]

The U.K. Joined the Common market in 1973 which after the Lisbon treaty in 2009 morphed into the EU.What does that have to do with the 1940's and speaking German?

Sorry if it went over your head. You are obviously younger than I am, referring to your grandfather where it would have been my father.

Would your grandfather really have turned his back on those that came to their aid in an hour of need.

The Polish armed forces were the 4th largest military body in WW2 and they with many other Europeans helped prevent a European Union in the 1940's. It would have been compulsory membership, single currency and a single language. Many would benefited from free hair cuts and dental checks while others would have had free clothing complete with jackboots.

Complain about the EU by all means but never forget how the freedom to complain came about.

There is an old saying,'Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.' You cannot do that from a position of isolation.

I am well aware of the history of the Second World War thank you.

My Grandfather and thousands like him were in France as part of the British Expoditionary Force after the events of 1939 when Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany and yes you are correct, they were fighting against a European Union dominated by nazi Germany.

Actually he had first hand experience of Poland as he was a Prisoner in the stalags there.

The scenario which you describe is what Brexit is trying to prevent. Can you not see where the EU is a going with their control all attitude, single super state, European army, Federal Police force, European arrest warrant, forming foreign policy etc. they are not about freedom but the exact opposite.

Reforming the EU whilst inside, yeah, good luck with that

Once again no one is advocating leaving Europe just the anti democratic EU

[Caps]

The U.K. Joined the Common market in 1973 which after the Lisbon treaty in 2009 morphed into the EU.What does that have to do with the 1940's and speaking German?

Sorry if it went over your head. You are obviously younger than I am, referring to your grandfather where it would have been my father.

Would your grandfather really have turned his back on those that came to their aid in an hour of need.

The Polish armed forces were the 4th largest military body in WW2 and they with many other Europeans helped prevent a European Union in the 1940's. It would have been compulsory membership, single currency and a single language. Many would benefited from free hair cuts and dental checks while others would have had free clothing complete with jackboots.

Complain about the EU by all means but never forget how the freedom to complain came about.

There is an old saying,'Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.' You cannot do that from a position of isolation.

I am well aware of the history of the Second World War thank you.

My Grandfather and thousands like him were in France as part of the British Expoditionary Force after the events of 1939 when Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany and yes you are correct, they were fighting against a European Union dominated by nazi Germany.

Actually he had first hand experience of Poland as he was a Prisoner in the stalags there.

The scenario which you describe is what Brexit is trying to prevent. Can you not see where the EU is a going with their control all attitude, single super state, European army, Federal Police force, European arrest warrant, forming foreign policy etc. they are not about freedom but the exact opposite.

Reforming the EU whilst inside, yeah, good luck with that

Once again no one is advocating leaving Europe just the anti democratic EU

They are even trying to dictate who you can vote for now!

You only have to look at Juncker's threat to ostracise those governments whose policies he doesn't agree with. The 'rule of law' legislation has already been used against Poland and is threatened against Hungary and Austria. When three of the 28 EU countries face this type of legislative action, one has to question whether the legislation makes sense. As the Polish prime minister said, "This is not the union, not the kind of membership that we have agreed to."

Juncker is, after all, the failed ex prime minister of the European superstate of Luxembourg which has hardly equipped him with a sense of fair play, and whose appointment as President of the European Commission was firmly opposed by the UK.

[nontabury]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/73018/eu-referendum-stars-for-and-against-brexit#11

It doesn't matter a damn, but here is a list of celebrity intentions. I guessed them 100%. Can you guess what it is that separates the ins from the outs? Clue: Liz Hurley wants proper light bulbs! [emoji1]

I'm with you on this one, I don't give a damm what the luvvies think, be they for or against, More important is what the general population thinks.

[Grouse]

https://www.facebook.com/AustraliaLoveItOrLeave/videos/1100674393306140/

If anyone is wondering what has this to do with the EU,

Two points-

1/ as the video points out, those poor countries such as in Africa need to be allowed to export their goods,especially agricultural products to Europe, without being subject to custom tariffs as imposed by the EU. In the event of a Brexit the market for these countries would automatically grow by 70 million.

2/ as the Video again explains,much better to encourage their elite to remain in their own country, rather to do a Merkel.

you have a seriously flawed premise or two there - firstly EU actually encourages trade with Africa, secondly, did you seriously think UK would be in a position to allow "free trade" with countries that would seriously undercut their dwindling industries and what do you think we would sell them?

Immigration is not just caused by economics of Africa (often a legacy of UK colonialism), it is caused by the wars US and their allies start largely to protect oil interests which in turn lead to mass migration of ASYLUM seekers, not immigrants - you really should find out who they are first.....or do they all look the same to you

?

Or Refugees even

At least get the terminology correct.

They are asylum seekers UNTIL they are accepted as refugees or rejected and sent packing.

This is an issue that media continually gets incorrect

ref·u·gee

ˌrefyo͝oˈjē/

noun

• a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

  Which was the point i was making

  a·sy·lum seek·er

  noun

• a person who has left their home country as a political refugee and is seeking asylum in another.

  "only asylum seekers who are granted refugee status are allowed to work in the country"

They are asylum seekers until classified as refugees by receiving country

[Caps]

They are asylum seekers until classified as refugees by receiving country

Yeah, Whatever, you believe what you must

[Grouse]

Look, I really don't want to get into a fight over this!

Do you understand the difference between de facto and de jure?

Someone may in fact be a refugee (de facto) but they do not become recognised as a refugee (de jure) until due process is completed. Until then, they are classified as asylum seekers.

Nothing to get vexed about ?

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_seeker

[nontabury]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time.