SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[arjunadawn]

Tax ID numbers for everyone.

The EU is laying the groundwork for everyone in Europe to be given a new tax ID number in preparation for moving to electronic money. They are using a National Insurance number pretense to disguise the real objective. This scheme was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last week. This is another step in the federalization of Europe and even the British will have to comply. Naturally, nobody will report this in Britain because it obviously calls for a European Taxpayer Identification Number to keep track of every EU citizen, which include the British. The actual European Commission text reads:

Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.

This covert maneuver calls for the EU to take over member states corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base for Europe as a whole. The British corporations are suddenly going to taste the bitter bite of European socialism and watch their taxes sky-rocket. That should help increase unemployment in Britain at a far faster pace than expected. This new legislation is banning sovereign member states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. Brussels is eliminating independence within Europe on taxes and this enables Brussels to be handed the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax and to prevent competitive taxation to lure in companies from other members to help reduce local unemployment.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/eu-passed-tax-id-numbers-for-everyone/

BIG Brother anyone?

The EUs designs may be many things but honest is not one of them. When populations need to be managed and engineered and shoehorned into choices, no rationale can extricate the plan- it's despotism- be definition.

If Brits trade their sovereignty for security or coin history has been quite clear they will lose both. When such a thing is wrapped in threats and calculation and propaganda, it's virulent! Some infections can not be cured.

[SheungWan]

At the end of the day we can vote the Brit. govt. out every 4 years - whereas this may be our last chance to get out of the EU.

I've made it clear that I think the EU has far better policies than the Brit. govts. when it comes to workers' rights, which is why I (generally) prefer EU policies.

But the EU needs to make itself more accountable to the population - and I'm sorry, voting for EMPs doesn't cut it...

The whole thing is a nightmare - some countries follow the rules, others don't/some countries should never have been allowed entry in the first place (and cost the actual paying members a whole lot more when they crash)/rules are brought into place to satisfy wealthy interest groups etc. etc. etc.

This will probably be our ONLY chance to force the EU into reform - unless it crashes on its own anyway....

Having said this, there's a more than likely chance that in the event of a Brit. 'exit' vote, they'll only reform the things I like about the EU - not the things I dislike - the cost/wasted money/EMPs salaries etc.

The Euro (currency) is going to fall, anyway; it is a foregone conclusion. The question is, will it be a soft or a hard landing? If the UK remains in the EU, and given "ever closer union" there is every chance that the UK will adopt the Euro as its currency in future. If it doesn't, the potential is that the Pound will become too strong against the Euro, and British export goods will become too expensive in the European Union, bringing with it unsustainable trade imbalances for Britain. With that in mind, what price having holdings or assets or cash, or pensions, denominated in falling euros, once Britain has adopted the euro?

Strategically, should Brexit take hold and win the referendum and the United Kingdom withdraws from the European Union, there is every chance that the EU will fracture and then collapse, as it will not be able to take the strain nor fill the void of a British withdrawal. In this scenario, although it will be extremely messy, there would be every opportunity for the stronger (northern) nations of Europe, together with Britain, to form a new economic alliance, with checks and balances built in to prevent a future formation of something akin to the present European Union, and to the benefit of all of its citizens.

The trouble with all these wishful scenarios is that they are speculative and uncertain and not made any less so with the addition of 'foregone conclusions' and 'every chances'. There is a whole kaleidoscope of them from Brexiteers, uncoordinated and utterly shambolic. Its a rag, tag and bobtail army of pet obsessions of maybe this and maybe that.

[sandyf]

Of course we are all aware that these people have no idea what they are talking about.

The World Trade Organisation's former director-general has warned that the UK economy risks a "huge blow" if it relies on the agency's global trading rules in the case of an EU leave vote.

The UK's services would be particularly vulnerable, while manufacturers would face "appalling complexity", Peter Sutherland told BBC Radio 5 Live.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36401578

[sandyf]

UK: With Brexit referendum just over 3 weeks away, UK economy is "stalling ahead...

UK: With Brexit referendum just over 3 weeks away, UK economy is "stalling aheadof EU vote" Sunday Times writes, as business investments are being shelved aheadthe date. Times notes the "latest manufacturing survey will be published onWednesday, after the April poll showed the first contraction in activity forthree years."

Source: Market News International (MNI) – A Deutsche Börse company

29. May 2016 23:52:07

[SheungWan]

As I recall, Nissan (Sunderland) said they would keep their factory there if we exit Europe.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia amongst other countries have said they see no problems trading with a U.K. that is outside of the E.U. And also, I seem to recall, those same countries saying trade with the UK is stifled by us being in the E.U. due to E.U. rules and red tape aimed at keeping much of the trade within the E.U. itself where possible.

Many countries in the E.U. will still actively trade with the U.K.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.? Maybe they will stop selling Volvos or other makes of cars.

Do you think the Spanish (for one) will want to stop selling their fruit and veg to us? Or their package holidays?

Many other countries in the E.U. itself will need to trade with us too even if we are not a club member.

To me it is scaremongering to say counties in the E.U. will not trade with us. It may be that we get better deals in some respects too.

*****

- I would take issue with every point you make - your premises are shaky in the extreme and without any reasonable foundation. They fly in the face of common sense.......you seem to have some vague idea that things were better before - which is of course totally incorrect and one can never go back to the past - especially one that never existed.

Nissan - yes- they did and I covered that - essentially this is the usual diplomatic approach of the Japanese...... just check what the Japanese said/say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment this year.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Yes- they did and I covered that earlier - just check what the Japanese say about Thailand and this has resulted in an 81% reduction in investment last year alone.

Of course they won't simply "jump ship" they have money invested, but as the purpose of the factories was to export to EU it is unlikely they will either invest further or continue for long.

Now as for your call to trade with Canada, New Zealand and Australia

Firstly look at the size of the market,

Canada - 36 million

New Zealand - 4.5 million

Australia - 23 million

EU over half a BILLION!

then look at the distances - UK is PART of Europe, the countries you talk about are scattered all over the planet; we are thousands of miles from those markets - what are we going to sell them anyway that they cant get closer to home??

BTW - You will note too that ALL Japanese motor manufacturing has or will cease in Australia within the next year. Despite what they said about 4 years ago - it doesnt take long to announce a change in policy in diplomatic terms.

Do you think they will stop selling BMW's in the U.K.?

No but going back to your better times....do you remember how much a BMW/Mercedes/Citroen/Volvos used to cost compared to a similar model built in UK back in the 60s?- all cars built in Europe had a duty slapped on them to protect the British motor industry. They were phenomenally expensive. .... and of course in many countries (e.g. Thailand) still have a huge tax loading on their prices- so yes they will still sell BMWs but dont expect the price to remain the same. The car market and cars available will take on the appearance of the Thai market, with tax incentives for the Japanese factories to continue making vehicles but in reduced capacity for a home market.

Britain is no longer a manufacturing country - it isnt going to change back by leaving the EU, it is just going to reduce its potential service economy and have to introduce import duties to protect what ever manufacturing remains after major companies sift to the EU mainland.

As for agriculture - some of the biggest sufferers will be the farmers who have benefitted from EU support for decades and a market that supports farmers - they will either have to be subsidized by the UK government or compete on price alone.

One thing you can be sure of border controls, duties and resulting increased transport costs will QUICKLY reduce the variety of gods (including Spanish tomatoes and Oranges - on the supermarket shelves. AGAIN do you remember in times gone by ? The range of foods we had on our shop shelves - (we didnt even have supermarkets in most towns. So if you think food will remain the same, you are in for a MAJOR disappointment.

Package Holidays?

Now where have you been? I used to run a low cost resort in Spain and the package holidays you talk about are in real trouble -they cant pare down costs enough........ the only way they were able to run was cheap flights and bus services down to Spain. Both of these will disappear within 2 years of joining, there will no longer be a borderless route between UK and Spain the processing at borders will increase both time and costs and of course we will have to see how the pound progresses - they may just become to expensive for us.

The original package holidays started when the UK had a considerably more expensive COL than Spain and fuel for flights was nothing. That kind of holiday is a tiny portion of the market - when was the last time you visited Benidorm?

All these so called markets you talk about are in fact much smaller than you seem to realise - Spain doesnt need UK tourists - they have a huge market from all over the EU - just look at the Thai tourist market - a decade ago Westerners were number one now it is Russia and China -

Exit the EU Spain will keep their holidays but they will finish with the UK.

As for scare mongering - that is just a cliché, a sound-bite used by those without a real argument.

The truth is we will HAVE to trade with Europe - but if we leave it will not be a PART of Europe, it will be as an unpopular outsider.

We have 2 years to negotiate out and then as long as we want to re-negotiate the thousands of deals with have become accustomed to, and from a position of disadvantage - who in there right mind would do that?

things change, there is no golden era we can return to...

We can happily trade apparently.........

Some of the most eminent legal experts in the field (of trading in and outside the E.U.), the Lawyers for Britain research discredits claims by Chancellor George Osborne that the UK would find it very difficult to renegotiate trade deals with 27 EU members and 50 global trading partners.

Director-general Martin Littlewood said: This nails the lie from the Remain camp that if we were to leave the EU Britain would find itself at ground zero, or year zero.

In fact, we would have in place nearly all the arrangements that we could possibly want and we would have plenty of time to exercise flexibility from there.

Britain is already a signatory to more than 50 trade deals of varying degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside Europe.

They include tariff-free South Korea and Switzerland, both top 10 trading partners for the UK.

Along the same lines, here is some other news on the trade front from Martin Howe QC, one of Britains leading EU experts.

He says Britain would have existing trade deals in place from the first day after Brexit."

Britain is already a signatory to more than 50 trade deals of varying degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside Europe.

They include tariff-free South Korea and Switzerland, both top 10 trading partners for the UK. And exports to South Korea account for a £5billion boon to Britains economy every year while those to Switzerland represent £7.3billion.

You see, far from believing the U.K. will crash and burn in the trade world, there are plenty of opportunities.

Maybe some 'Doom and Gloom' people should realise the U.K. has a life - a Trade Life - outside the E.U.

And you say about this "Golden Era". Well, it seems we can have a Golden Era outside of the E.U.

Oh dear

As you nicely confirm, these are EU deals. What makes you think we can sit on EU coat tails after a Brexit? Let's get real here! I don't know Martin Howe; is he related to Geoffrey?

I see he's mostly known for wanting to get rid of the European Court of Human Rights (presumably to be replaced by a Westminster court of no human rights whatsoever unless one has pots of money!)

Martin Howe is a member of the Advisory Council of the Centre for Policy Studies. Other luminaries include John Redwood MP, Michael Fallon MP, Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach, Lord Powell of Bayswater and Lord Norton of Louth.

[nontabury]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.
Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.
It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK

He's not capable. He takes pride in sticking to his vexatious fixed positions. You are wasting your time engaging with him.

He's the type that posts images such as the one just above putting words into the mouths of British soldiers in the trenches - thinking that cheap, deranged photoshopping supports his argument. He'll now be sitting in front of his PC thinking that he's oh, so clever. So lets go back to the OP -

Ask this question of the Allied troops in the trenches -

Would you vote for a political and economic union that brought peace to Europe?

1. Yes.

2. No.

It would be a 99.1% yes vote.

The 0.9% no vote would be a bunch of vexatious Yorkshiremen who'd rather fight to the death than admit they are wrong.

I'm sure nobody would want to return to the days of war, however to say that this is due to the EU is simple ridiculous. Thankfully there's been no major war in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the Americans and NATO,nothing at all to do with the EU.
In Fact what the EU is causing is division,as can be seen by the attitudes of the Greeks to the Germans,bringing up old hatred from 70 yrs ago. And let's not forget that there is now a Growing demand from within many EU countries,for dramatic changes to how this undemocratic so called corrupt Union is ran, to again an ever increasing call to actually leave the EU.
I' m also wondering as an ardent supporter of the SNP, if you have been influenced by their official policy,for what ever reason, to remain in the EU. I would like to point out to you that in 1975,when the people of the UK were deceived,some would say conned into joining what they thought was a trading association, one part of the U.K. to their credit voted against membership "The western isle and the Shetlands.


This poster was sent to me by friends in Scotland.They even tell me that some of those who voted for separation in 2014, are now going to vote for Brexit. Including the ex leader of the SNP Jim Sellers.

[cumgranosalum]

I mentioned earlier on that if the UK remains the Euro sooner or later will be an issue to be dealt with.

Any one who is convinced the Euro is going to fail is going to vote for exit?

It is only logical that If the UK stays in the union it will start using the Euro.

All in or all out?

In that case there a few more countries who will also have to adopt the Euro and imo that would be the right thing to do.

Exchange rates can and will be settled in due time.

UK is not the only country to opt out of the Euro.

Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.....

the Euro it self started out o parity with the US dollar and has remain a good 20 to 30 5 stronger ever since.

although it has problems, the Euro is much larger than any problems thrown up by Greece which is in realitya tiny part of the Euro economy.

[SheungWan]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK

He's not capable. He takes pride in sticking to his vexatious fixed positions. You are wasting your time engaging with him.

He's the type that posts images such as the one just above putting words into the mouths of British soldiers in the trenches - thinking that cheap, deranged photoshopping supports his argument. He'll now be sitting in front of his PC thinking that he's oh, so clever. So lets go back to the OP -

Ask this question of the Allied troops in the trenches -

Would you vote for a political and economic union that brought peace to Europe?

1. Yes.

2. No.

It would be a 99.1% yes vote.

The 0.9% no vote would be a bunch of vexatious Yorkshiremen who'd rather fight to the death than admit they are wrong.

I'm sure nobody would want to return to the days of war, however to say that this is due to the EU is simple ridiculous. Thankfully there's been no major war in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the Americans and NATO,nothing at all to do with the EU.

In Fact what the EU is causing is division,as can be seen by the attitudes of the Greeks to the Germans,bringing up old hatred from 70 yrs ago. And let's not forget that there is now a Growing demand from within many EU countries,for dramatic changes to how this undemocratic so called corrupt Union is ran, to again an ever increasing call to actually leave the EU.

I' m also wondering as an ardent supporter of the SNP, if you have been influenced by their official policy,for what ever reason, to remain in the EU. I would like to point out to you that in 1975,when the people of the UK were deceived,some would say conned into joining what they thought was a trading association, one part of the U.K. to their credit voted against membership "The western isle and the Shetlands. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464574096.452511.jpg

This poster was sent to me by friends in Scotland.They even tell me that some of those who voted for separation in 2014, are now going to vote for Brexit. Including the ex leader of the SNP Jim Sellers.

That would presumably be the same Jim Sellers who was the former leader of the breakaway Scottish Labour Party which subsequently collapsed. Joined the bigger organisation the SNP . After losing his Govan seat in the 1992 General Election, sourly referred to the Scottish people as '90 minute patriots'. Currently another hero of the BREXIT team.

[cumgranosalum]

"They include tariff-free South Korea and Switzerland, both top 10 trading partners for the UK." - OK check the deficit between UK and Koea and the size.

"

Along the same lines, here is some other news on the trade front from Martin Howe QC, one of Britain’s leading EU experts.

He says “Britain would have existing trade deals in place” from the first day after Brexit."

Britain is already a signatory to more than 50 trade deals of varying degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside Europe."

All the EU deals will exist after Brexit - for 2 years - by then they all have to be re-affirmed or re-negotiated - unfortunately they can also be vetoed by EU members....so it is not a done thing.

i have never said the effects of leaving will be immediate and even demonstrable - the process will be a long slide that successive governments in the Uk will have to make compromise after compromise to deal with.

Of course even then their will be a tea of pundits arguing that the gradual slide is nothing to do with leaving but a world effect or something that even with "sovereignty" we can't handle.

the truth is that whatever happens in the world economy in the next few decades it will be an economy of "super-blocks" USA, Chine EU, India (even AEU will have a go) but a nation like UK is not suited to an independent approach...comparisons with Norway and Switzerland are specious.

[Scott]

An oversized graphic has been removed.

[cumgranosalum]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

There’s always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you can’t hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time.ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

"One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time." - one sometimes has to wonder at the thought processes that come up with this sort of thing as an argument to leave the EU.

[nontabury]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK

He's not capable. He takes pride in sticking to his vexatious fixed positions. You are wasting your time engaging with him.

He's the type that posts images such as the one just above putting words into the mouths of British soldiers in the trenches - thinking that cheap, deranged photoshopping supports his argument. He'll now be sitting in front of his PC thinking that he's oh, so clever. So lets go back to the OP -

Ask this question of the Allied troops in the trenches -

Would you vote for a political and economic union that brought peace to Europe?

1. Yes.

2. No.

It would be a 99.1% yes vote.

The 0.9% no vote would be a bunch of vexatious Yorkshiremen who'd rather fight to the death than admit they are wrong.

I'm sure nobody would want to return to the days of war, however to say that this is due to the EU is simple ridiculous. Thankfully there's been no major war in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the Americans and NATO,nothing at all to do with the EU.

In Fact what the EU is causing is division,as can be seen by the attitudes of the Greeks to the Germans,bringing up old hatred from 70 yrs ago. And let's not forget that there is now a Growing demand from within many EU countries,for dramatic changes to how this undemocratic so called corrupt Union is ran, to again an ever increasing call to actually leave the EU.

I' m also wondering as an ardent supporter of the SNP, if you have been influenced by their official policy,for what ever reason, to remain in the EU. I would like to point out to you that in 1975,when the people of the UK were deceived,some would say conned into joining what they thought was a trading association, one part of the U.K. to their credit voted against membership "The western isle and the Shetlands. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464574096.452511.jpg

This poster was sent to me by friends in Scotland.They even tell me that some of those who voted for separation in 2014, are now going to vote for Brexit. Including the ex leader of the SNP Jim Sellers.

That would presumably be the same Jim Sellers who was the former leader of the breakaway Scottish Labour Party which subsequently collapsed. Joined the bigger organisation the SNP . After losing his Govan seat in the 1992 General Election, sourly referred to the Scottish people as '90 minute patriots'. Currently another hero of the BREXIT team.

The very same person. Perhaps he would call those who are willing to sacrifice the remaining British sovereignty, as "90 minute Brits".

[cumgranosalum]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK

He's not capable. He takes pride in sticking to his vexatious fixed positions. You are wasting your time engaging with him.

He's the type that posts images such as the one just above putting words into the mouths of British soldiers in the trenches - thinking that cheap, deranged photoshopping supports his argument. He'll now be sitting in front of his PC thinking that he's oh, so clever. So lets go back to the OP -

Ask this question of the Allied troops in the trenches -

Would you vote for a political and economic union that brought peace to Europe?

1. Yes.

2. No.

It would be a 99.1% yes vote.

The 0.9% no vote would be a bunch of vexatious Yorkshiremen who'd rather fight to the death than admit they are wrong.

I'm sure nobody would want to return to the days of war, however to say that this is due to the EU is simple ridiculous. Thankfully there's been no major war in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the Americans and NATO,nothing at all to do with the EU.

In Fact what the EU is causing is division,as can be seen by the attitudes of the Greeks to the Germans,bringing up old hatred from 70 yrs ago. And let's not forget that there is now a Growing demand from within many EU countries,for dramatic changes to how this undemocratic so called corrupt Union is ran, to again an ever increasing call to actually leave the EU.

I' m also wondering as an ardent supporter of the SNP, if you have been influenced by their official policy,for what ever reason, to remain in the EU. I would like to point out to you that in 1975,when the people of the UK were deceived,some would say conned into joining what they thought was a trading association, one part of the U.K. to their credit voted against membership "The western isle and the Shetlands. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464574096.452511.jpg

This poster was sent to me by friends in Scotland.They even tell me that some of those who voted for separation in 2014, are now going to vote for Brexit. Including the ex leader of the SNP Jim Sellers.

That would presumably be the same Jim Sellers who was the former leader of the breakaway Scottish Labour Party which subsequently collapsed. Joined the bigger organisation the SNP . After losing his Govan seat in the 1992 General Election, sourly referred to the Scottish people as '90 minute patriots'. Currently another hero of the BREXIT team.

The very same person. Perhaps he would call those who are willing to sacrifice the remaining British sovereignty, as "90 minute Brits".

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464584283.465528.jpg

"I'm sure nobody would want to return to the days of war, however to say that this is due to the EU is simple ridiculous. Thankfully there's been no major war in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the Americans and NATO,nothing at all to do with the EU."

I beg you pardon???/ - perhaps you should get out more!- there have been MAJOR wars in Europe including genocide - but all outside the EU and the the European Union has taken the lead in attempting to stabilise and create a European future for the region.

You just seem to post what you WANT to be....... not what really IS

[Grouse]

Tax ID numbers for everyone.

The EU is laying the groundwork for everyone in Europe to be given a new tax ID number in preparation for moving to electronic money. They are using a National Insurance number pretense to disguise the real objective. This scheme was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last week. This is another step in the federalization of Europe and even the British will have to comply. Naturally, nobody will report this in Britain because it obviously calls for a European Taxpayer Identification Number to keep track of every EU citizen, which include the British. The actual European Commission text reads:

Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.

This covert maneuver calls for the EU to take over member states corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base for Europe as a whole. The British corporations are suddenly going to taste the bitter bite of European socialism and watch their taxes sky-rocket. That should help increase unemployment in Britain at a far faster pace than expected. This new legislation is banning sovereign member states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. Brussels is eliminating independence within Europe on taxes and this enables Brussels to be handed the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax and to prevent competitive taxation to lure in companies from other members to help reduce local unemployment.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/eu-passed-tax-id-numbers-for-everyone/

BIG Brother anyone?

The EUs designs may be many things but honest is not one of them. When populations need to be managed and engineered and shoehorned into choices, no rationale can extricate the plan- it's despotism- be definition.

If Brits trade their sovereignty for security or coin history has been quite clear they will lose both. When such a thing is wrapped in threats and calculation and propaganda, it's virulent! Some infections can not be cured.

There may well be something machieavellian afoot. However the main reason is to make tax evasion more difficult.

[cumgranosalum]

Conspiracy theories and claims about sovereignty are just furphy's and myths.

The most likely result of a Uk/Britain/England outside the EU is that it will be less DEMOCRATIC than now - the hard right will see to that.

as for sovereignty UK still retains 98% as a member of the EU.

After the way that was not the case - in order to finance the war Churchill & Co conceded vast tracts of British land both at home and overseas to the USA to use as they please with no reference to the UK govt. They were in effect using the UK as a series of aircraft carriers and launchpads.

the very concept of sovereignty is basically flawed from the start and I think many confuse it with democratic processes and human rights all of which on a nation by nation basis have to be up to certain standards to be in the EU - big business and hard right in the UK are rubbing their hands at the thought of getting rid of all that.

[nontabury]

https://www.facebook.com/PaulNuttallMep/posts/1158074147576941

[Grouse]

You guys seen this vid yet ? BBC Four

Peter Hitchens gives us a short history lesson of our EU membership.

It's about one hour long.

You need to learn how to watch TV more critically - there is a lesson there but it isn't EU history...it is largely in spin.....

Historically inaccurate from the start - a jingoistic approach that would appeal only to confirmed Brexiteers in the normal demographics. It takes the notion of "nationality" and then runs off with it to absurd degrees

Theres always this undertone amongst Brexiteers that by leaving, the UK (what's left of it) will somehow return to a Golden Age..........whose existence is evoked or hinted at in this program.

Actually the use of HMS Victory and invoking Trafalgar at the start just tells you where this is going to go.....historical revisionism at its.....not worst - just most incompetent.

Trafalgar BTW - established England as the dominant NAVAL power - to survive economically we then used this to develop and exploit resources all over the world to feed the home industrial expansion. We didn't do it "alone" it was on the backs of Empire and Commonwealth. After WW2 ALL parties realised that without Empire the UK needed another form of Union and market - that being out traditional market - Europe......... to leave now goes against all the lessons of history and any real prospects for future development.

In the end the program presents one argument - and only one - and that is based on the nebulous concept of Sovereignty.....an argument that is now so dated and out of touch as to be irrelevant.

It is a manifesto of the hard right in UK politics - people who have not had their way very much since the war - they see Brexit as a chance to set up the first hard right wing government in the UK since WW2, unchained by international or EU workers/human rights with a work force that is cheap and without rights and therefore pliant.

The program throws in a few left wing Labour members just to give the impression of not being biased. But you cant hide the fact that these people and a rich elite that back them would love to see UK leave the EU as it is the surest way they can secure a strangle hold on England - essentially - and make a fortune out of turning it into little more than their own private banana republic.

All you have done through this thread is to call the UK down. Now I'm not saying the UK is the greatest,far from it, but as for you, I'm now wondering if you are in fact British. One thing I know for sure, Is if I was in trenches with you, I be watching my back all the time. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464502516.138625.jpg

Nontabury, I have to ask you this, why are you so vehemently against anything in favour of the EU?

Most here have gone out of there way to explain that their decision to be pro or anti EU is a balanced, rational one.

You're a Yorkshireman right?

Is there really nothing you think the EU has done that's of any use whatsoever?

How about the banning of mass use of antibiotics by farmers to fatten livestock unlike in the USA? Good?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you showed more balance!

And before you go off on one I've already expressed my concern about the democratic deficit in the EU and the lamentable border force in the UK

He's not capable. He takes pride in sticking to his vexatious fixed positions. You are wasting your time engaging with him.

He's the type that posts images such as the one just above putting words into the mouths of British soldiers in the trenches - thinking that cheap, deranged photoshopping supports his argument. He'll now be sitting in front of his PC thinking that he's oh, so clever. So lets go back to the OP -

Ask this question of the Allied troops in the trenches -

Would you vote for a political and economic union that brought peace to Europe?

1. Yes.

2. No.

It would be a 99.1% yes vote.

The 0.9% no vote would be a bunch of vexatious Yorkshiremen who'd rather fight to the death than admit they are wrong.

I'm sure nobody would want to return to the days of war, however to say that this is due to the EU is simple ridiculous. Thankfully there's been no major war in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the Americans and NATO,nothing at all to do with the EU.

In Fact what the EU is causing is division,as can be seen by the attitudes of the Greeks to the Germans,bringing up old hatred from 70 yrs ago. And let's not forget that there is now a Growing demand from within many EU countries,for dramatic changes to how this undemocratic so called corrupt Union is ran, to again an ever increasing call to actually leave the EU.

I' m also wondering as an ardent supporter of the SNP, if you have been influenced by their official policy,for what ever reason, to remain in the EU. I would like to point out to you that in 1975,when the people of the UK were deceived,some would say conned into joining what they thought was a trading association, one part of the U.K. to their credit voted against membership "The western isle and the Shetlands. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464574096.452511.jpg

This poster was sent to me by friends in Scotland.They even tell me that some of those who voted for separation in 2014, are now going to vote for Brexit. Including the ex leader of the SNP Jim Sellers.

The EU and its precursors has been instrumental in holding Europe together. Please read the history starting with the European Steel and Coal Community.

NATO is primarily about external threats. France wasn't even part of NATO for a long time (1966 - 2009, 43 years!)

You will try and argue about anything positive towards EU. Quite silly!

[nontabury]

https://www.facebook.com/GetBritainOut/posts/894377894041382

Well it's certainly not cricket.

[nontabury]

You will note that this article was written by Pritti Patel, so obvious she must racist.

https://www.facebook.com/eddy.senior.3/posts/1275684269125573

[cumgranosalum]

It's again indicative of the lack of understanding of some Brexiteers that they are unable to make a comment themselves so just post a series of addresses that they hope hit the mark.

i notice another meme coming to the for - the use of "foeigner" in other aspects apart from migrants.....if does reveal how the Brexiteers rely heavily on xenophobia as a substitute for rational thought.

If there were any good arguments to leave the EU - they certainly have avoided the average Brexiteer - but that sort of thing really would be outside their remit?

[Thaiwine]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/28/wto-chiefs-ludicrous-assertion-on-brexit-tariffs-and-trade/#428608f68dab

Forbes opinion on ex wto boss's comment brexit would be a blow to UK.

[nontabury]

Wrong post.

[SheungWan]

Talking of minor politicians jumping on a losing bandwagon such as Jim Sellers in Scotland, we have the British SWP which is also recommending voting OUT. The SWP is hoping to accelerate the collapse of capitalism.....The SWP interestingly dissolved its own Scottish organisation into Jim's SLP when it was in operation. Whether at the time it assisted the eventual demise of the SLP is moot. The SWP, in its turn, used to be allied with Gorgeous George Galloway (another star Scotsman) until he shafted them before they shafted him (over the Respect Party in case anybody asks). George recently agreed to appear on the same platform as Nigel Farage. George justified this by likening this platform alliance to that of the wartime alliance between Stalin and Churchill during the second world war. What a shower!

[Grouse]

Here's the FT on Brexit

https://next.ft.com/content/a75fc5ae-16c7-11e6-9d98-00386a18e39d

On Brexit - Sterling sell off is a safe bet

Some reckon sterling could lose 30% against the USD

[cumgranosalum]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/28/wto-chiefs-ludicrous-assertion-on-brexit-tariffs-and-trade/#428608f68dab

Forbes opinion on ex wto boss's comment brexit would be a blow to UK.

THis is supporting the big business rubbing their hands theory----unregulated capitalism and erosion of workers/human rights to facilitate exploitation.

[sandyf]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/28/wto-chiefs-ludicrous-assertion-on-brexit-tariffs-and-trade/#428608f68dab

Forbes opinion on ex wto boss's comment brexit would be a blow to UK.(not ex, you mean current World Trade Organization chief Roberto Azevedo)

All very confusing.and misleading.

"Thus, we cannot have the two claims being made here. Both that Britain will not be a WTO member and also that Britain will be bound by WTO rules. We will thus be entirely free to set whatever import duties we desire. And as the only rational trade policy is one of unilateral free trade those duties should be set at a level of zero. Which, as Patrick Minford keeps pointing out, will make the UK economy grow by 3% or so."

The UK has effectively been a member of the WTO since 1948, initially one of the founding countries in GATT(General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) which was replaced by the WTO in 1995. All EU member states and the EU in its own right are full members of the WTO. The problem is that all EU member states share the tariff profile of the EU so in the event of a Brexit, the UK would have to establish a new tariff profile in order to maintain its membership. Any new tariff profile would subject to WTO rules and you cannot be a member without a tariff profile. It would be virtually impossible for the UK to trade as a non WTO member, currently 162 members..

"At the heart of the system — known as the multilateral trading system — are the WTO’s agreements, negotiated and signed by a large majority of the world’s trading nations, and ratified in their parliaments. These agreements are the legal ground-rules for international commerce. Essentially, they are contracts, guaranteeing member countries important trade rights. They also bind governments to keep their trade policies within agreed limits to everybody’s benefit."

[Linzz]

"the Euro it self started out o parity with the US dollar and has remain a good 20 to 30 5 stronger ever since." Post #1576 Cumgranosalem

The Euro is heading towards parity having dropped in value since 2008. (1.591 now 1.110) If the UK leaves the EU, why the opinion of splendid isolation? It is likely others will follow suit so what value the Euro then when there's a break up of the Union and a flight to the USD?

[MartinL]

"Thus, we cannot have the two claims being made here. Both that Britain will not be a WTO member and also that Britain will be bound by WTO rules. We will thus be entirely free to set whatever import duties we desire. And as the only rational trade policy is one of unilateral free trade those duties should be set at a level of zero. Which, as Patrick Minford keeps pointing out, will make the UK economy grow by 3% or so."

The UK has effectively been a member of the WTO since 1948, initially one of the founding countries in GATT(General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) which was replaced by the WTO in 1995. All EU member states and the EU in its own right are full members of the WTO. The problem is that all EU member states share the tariff profile of the EU so in the event of a Brexit, the UK would have to establish a new tariff profile in order to maintain its membership. Any new tariff profile would subject to WTO rules and you cannot be a member without a tariff profile. It would be virtually impossible for the UK to trade as a non WTO member, currently 162 members..

"At the heart of the system — known as the multilateral trading system — are the WTO’s agreements, negotiated and signed by a large majority of the world’s trading nations, and ratified in their parliaments. These agreements are the legal ground-rules for international commerce. Essentially, they are contracts, guaranteeing member countries important trade rights. They also bind governments to keep their trade policies within agreed limits to everybody’s benefit."

Sandy,

Paragraph 1 above is an extract from the Forbes opinion piece, that's fine.

Are paragraphs 2 & 3 quotes that should be attributed to somebody else or are they your own thoughts on the matter?

[Linzz]

Tax ID numbers for everyone.

The EU is laying the groundwork for everyone in Europe to be given a new tax ID number in preparation for moving to electronic money. They are using a National Insurance number pretense to disguise the real objective. This scheme was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last week. This is another step in the federalization of Europe and even the British will have to comply. Naturally, nobody will report this in Britain because it obviously calls for a European Taxpayer Identification Number to keep track of every EU citizen, which include the British. The actual European Commission text reads:

Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.

This covert maneuver calls for the EU to take over member states corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base for Europe as a whole. The British corporations are suddenly going to taste the bitter bite of European socialism and watch their taxes sky-rocket. That should help increase unemployment in Britain at a far faster pace than expected. This new legislation is banning sovereign member states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. Brussels is eliminating independence within Europe on taxes and this enables Brussels to be handed the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax and to prevent competitive taxation to lure in companies from other members to help reduce local unemployment.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/eu-passed-tax-id-numbers-for-everyone/

BIG Brother anyone?

The EUs designs may be many things but honest is not one of them. When populations need to be managed and engineered and shoehorned into choices, no rationale can extricate the plan- it's despotism- be definition.

If Brits trade their sovereignty for security or coin history has been quite clear they will lose both. When such a thing is wrapped in threats and calculation and propaganda, it's virulent! Some infections can not be cured.

There may well be something machieavellian afoot. However the main reason is to make tax evasion more difficult.

That would be the excuse. The main reason is a hunt for taxes to prop up failing economic policies and governments going broke, failing pension schemes and failing negative interest rates. The dream of socialism has only lined the pockets of those in power at the expense of lowering the living standards of the people.Their solution is to grab more money and power to force the economy to do what the politicians want without realising manipulating markets is beyond their control. Federalized Europe into one socialist mega state is the future according to Francois Hollande. (One FAILED socialist mega state) Like some posters on here politicians look on any dissenters as too stupid to understand what the elite have in mind.

[cumgranosalum]

"The main reason is a hunt for taxes to prop up failing economic policies and governments going broke, failing pension schemes and failing negative interest rates. The dream of socialism has only lined the pockets of those in power at the expense of lowering the living standards of the people" - full-blown conspiracy theory about the left? and the Brexit also have full-blown conspiracies about the right.........

It might be nice to make a couple of league tables one for conspiracy theories as promulgated by each side and then one of "experts" each side has rolled out....tot them up and you would get a clearer picture of who is the biggest bullshitter