How to ask what is the House Special/Best Dish in a Restaurant?

[p_brownstone]

Whilst I (usually) agree with Mole - after all, he is a native Thai speaker - may I as a native English speaker take small issue with his English rendering of "จาน" as "chan" .

In my opinion "จาน" (plate or dish) would better be rendered as "Jahn" or perhaps "Jarn".

The pronunciation as "Chan" would sound in Thai as "ฉัน" - meaning "I" if a female is speaking - or as a rather informal male pronoun.

I'm not at all sure but I have a feeling that "ฉันเด็ด" may not be quite what the OP wants to say!

Patrick

(2) Your point about how to represent "จ" has already been addressed by the Royal Thai General System of Transcription. The finest minds in the Kingdom have already decided that "CH" is the best way of representing that letter using the Latin alphabet. Why should you as a non-Thai upstart beg to differ? As Mole wrote, "CHAN" is 100% the official and correct way of representing จาน using the Latin alphabet.

Not at all sure that the RTGST was arrived at by "the finest minds in the Kingdom" - more likely some Thai jobsworths with degrees in "English" from Thai Universities.

Of course it's nice to have a "Standard" but there are inconsistencies in the system which many people recognise and this is clearly one.

As a test, approach - say - 10 Farang native English speakers, speak the word Jahn to them an ask them to render it in written English - I can guarantee that at least 9 out of 10 would begin the word with the letter "J" .

Patrick

[Mole]

For native English speakers, yes they will pronounce the "j" like จ. But many European languages don't pronounce "j" like จ but some pronounce it like ย.

So in the end there is really no "standard" on this, it all depends on many factors.

That's why I chose to stick to RTGS, so there won't be any question about what's "right" or "wrong". I transcribe according to RTGS, but it's up to the individual to identify if "ch" is จ or ช or ฉ and pronounce it accordinly.

[Oxx]

This "standard" is the reason that most foreigners can't prononce any area in the country correctly.

Nonsense. That's because most foreigners aren't familiar with some or most of the following: Thailand's tonal system, all the sounds of the vowels and consonants of Thai, the use of "ng" and glottal stop as an initial consonant and glottal stop as a final one, vowel length, unaspirated final consonants. The reality is that if one hasn't studied Thai seriously, then there is zero chance of being able to pronounce the language correctly.

Just considering the case of the OP, he's beginning to learn Thai (which is good), but he's not at a level where he'll be able to make sense of any of the Romanised versions of Thai presented,. Being realistic whatever he says is most unlikely to be understood. He's just going to be met with a blank stare. (Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, OP. Keep learning, though!)

The only serious systems of representing Thai accurately are IPA, Mary Hass/AUA, and Beckawan. However, all these include symbols not in the Latin alphabet and dicritics which will be utterly meaningless to almost everybody. So, the RTGS is a compromise, without funny symbols and diacritics. It's good enough for people who know Thai to work out what the words is (and so know how it's pronounced), and provides a simple standard so that, for example, librarians abroad can file Thai language books on the correct shelf (and find them again).

[Jai Dee]

Several off-topic, argumentative, and flame posts have been removed from this thread.

I rarely venture into this forum as it is usually fairly well self-regulated and the contributing members have good constructive discussions, but flaming and arguing will not be tolerated.

Please keep the discussion on-topic and civil please.

[bamukloy]

For native English speakers, yes they will pronounce the "j" like จ. But many European languages don't pronounce "j" like จ but some pronounce it like ย.

So in the end there is really no "standard" on this, it all depends on many factors.

That's why I chose to stick to RTGS, so there won't be any question about what's "right" or "wrong". I transcribe according to RTGS, but it's up to the individual to identify if "ch" is จ or ช or ฉ and pronounce it accordinly.

I must say i appreciate your participation on the forum. How bizzare it must be for you seeing farangs arguing the point over who knows best, when truth be known, they pretty much all sound clueless. Egos huh?!! Oh well

As for the ch, j issue (sorry i cannot seem to paste anything here as the text never inserts into the right spot)

I always am a bit puzzled by "chan arai krap?"... in regards to asking about the floor/ storey of a building.

Many times i am on the elevator and ask others what floor they go to if i am nearest the button (its quite a common thing ,yes?)

I fear i am probably sounding the word 'plate' or the woman classifier word chan, but obviously in that situation (in the elevator) they know what i mean even if i am messing it up.

My ear is not really good enough to pick up the subtle difference when Thais speak both these words.

Anyway i was wondering if you could post the thai spelling for 'floor' or 'storey' of a building as i have done a few searches and not been able to find that particular word written anywhere.

thanks in advance. :0)

[p_brownstone]

For native English speakers, yes they will pronounce the "j" like จ. But many European languages don't pronounce "j" like จ but some pronounce it like ย.

So in the end there is really no "standard" on this, it all depends on many factors.

That's why I chose to stick to RTGS, so there won't be any question about what's "right" or "wrong". I transcribe according to RTGS, but it's up to the individual to identify if "ch" is จ or ช or ฉ and pronounce it accordinly.

I must say i appreciate your participation on the forum. How bizzare it must be for you seeing farangs arguing the point over who knows best, when truth be known, they pretty much all sound clueless. Egos huh?!! Oh well

As for the ch, j issue (sorry i cannot seem to paste anything here as the text never inserts into the right spot)

I always am a bit puzzled by "chan arai krap?"... in regards to asking about the floor/ storey of a building.

Many times i am on the elevator and ask others what floor they go to if i am nearest the button (its quite a common thing ,yes?)

I fear i am probably sounding the word 'plate' or the woman classifier word chan, but obviously in that situation (in the elevator) they know what i mean even if i am messing it up.

My ear is not really good enough to pick up the subtle difference when Thais speak both these words.

Anyway i was wondering if you could post the thai spelling for 'floor' or 'storey' of a building as i have done a few searches and not been able to find that particular word written anywhere.

thanks in advance. :0)

The Thai for "storey" - as in level - is ชั้น. (The same word is used when talking about "level" as in Military Rank, School Grade etc.).

I'll add to this Thread later if appropriate - right now I have to go to Jakarta (จาการ์ตา) on business but back on Friday.

Patrick

P.S. Oops - sorry! I should write that as Chakarta!

Patrick

[bearpolar]

For native English speakers, yes they will pronounce the "j" like จ. But many European languages don't pronounce "j" like จ but some pronounce it like ย.

So in the end there is really no "standard" on this, it all depends on many factors.

That's why I chose to stick to RTGS, so there won't be any question about what's "right" or "wrong". I transcribe according to RTGS, but it's up to the individual to identify if "ch" is จ or ช or ฉ and pronounce it accordinly.

I must say i appreciate your participation on the forum. How bizzare it must be for you seeing farangs arguing the point over who knows best, when truth be known, they pretty much all sound clueless. Egos huh?!! Oh well

As for the ch, j issue (sorry i cannot seem to paste anything here as the text never inserts into the right spot)

I always am a bit puzzled by "chan arai krap?"... in regards to asking about the floor/ storey of a building.

Many times i am on the elevator and ask others what floor they go to if i am nearest the button (its quite a common thing ,yes?)

I fear i am probably sounding the word 'plate' or the woman classifier word chan, but obviously in that situation (in the elevator) they know what i mean even if i am messing it up.

My ear is not really good enough to pick up the subtle difference when Thais speak both these words.

Anyway i was wondering if you could post the thai spelling for 'floor' or 'storey' of a building as i have done a few searches and not been able to find that particular word written anywhere.

thanks in advance. :0)

Chan for storey

Chan for women

Jaan for plate(not chan)

We all know that thai people are not good at fighting against the establishment of old crooks at the top of the ladder, theres ok arguments for other mistakes in the royal system but the จ = ch isnt one of them.

จ is a pure J when transliterated to english. No where near any of the words that use ช and ฉ, so plate sounds like janitor with a bit longer a not chanitor

Pronounce all your จ words with ch and see where that gets you.. not very far

[nrasmussen]

For native English speakers, yes they will pronounce the "j" like จ. But many European languages don't pronounce "j" like จ but some pronounce it like ย.

So in the end there is really no "standard" on this, it all depends on many factors.

That's why I chose to stick to RTGS, so there won't be any question about what's "right" or "wrong". I transcribe according to RTGS, but it's up to the individual to identify if "ch" is จ or ช or ฉ and pronounce it accordinly.

I must say i appreciate your participation on the forum. How bizzare it must be for you seeing farangs arguing the point over who knows best, when truth be known, they pretty much all sound clueless. Egos huh?!! Oh well

As for the ch, j issue (sorry i cannot seem to paste anything here as the text never inserts into the right spot)

I always am a bit puzzled by "chan arai krap?"... in regards to asking about the floor/ storey of a building.

Many times i am on the elevator and ask others what floor they go to if i am nearest the button (its quite a common thing ,yes?)

I fear i am probably sounding the word 'plate' or the woman classifier word chan, but obviously in that situation (in the elevator) they know what i mean even if i am messing it up.

My ear is not really good enough to pick up the subtle difference when Thais speak both these words.

Anyway i was wondering if you could post the thai spelling for 'floor' or 'storey' of a building as i have done a few searches and not been able to find that particular word written anywhere.

thanks in advance. :0)

Chan for storey

Chan for women

Jaan for plate(not chan)

We all know that thai people are not good at fighting against the establishment of old crooks at the top of the ladder, theres ok arguments for other mistakes in the royal system but the จ = ch isnt one of them.

จ is a pure J when transliterated to english. No where near any of the words that use ช and ฉ, so plate sounds like janitor with a bit longer a not chanitor

Pronounce all your จ words with ch and see where that gets you.. not very far

As there is no English 'j' sound in Thai, 'จ'​ is definitely not pronounced like the 'j' in janitor.

Both 'จ'​ and 'ฉ' are pronounced 'ch', the difference being that 'จ' is unaspirated and 'ฉ' is aspirated.

[bamukloy]

well, i am first to admit i am no expert, but in the case of such words as....จูบ....for example...

For me, the CH and J sounds seem to intermingle in much the same way that B and P do, when producing the word Bpen.

Thats the way i approach it anyway and i dont seem to have any trouble being understood.

Certainly, to my ears, when listening to Thais saying the 'kiss' word i cannot tell if ch or j is more dominant.

Having an argument over it (or debate shall we say) makes about as much sense as arguing over who right or wrong in 'you say tomarto and i say tomayto'

[bamukloy]

By the way, P Brownstone,

Thanks for the spelling and explanation of ชั้น.

Its a good example why reading Thai script is the only way of getting it right and therefor knowing that word is high tone..

The other poster who spells the same word in english 'chan' for both storey and the woman classifier IMO demonstrates how it is pretty much useless trying to differentiate between the two words (in real speech) if having to rely on the English spelling being identicle for two different words.

[bearpolar]

well, i am first to admit i am no expert, but in the case of such words as....จูบ....for example...

For me, the CH and J sounds seem to intermingle in much the same way that B and P do, when producing the word Bpen.

Thats the way i approach it anyway and i dont seem to have any trouble being understood.

Certainly, to my ears, when listening to Thais saying the 'kiss' word i cannot tell if ch or j is more dominant.

Having an argument over it (or debate shall we say) makes about as much sense as arguing over who right or wrong in 'you say tomarto and i say tomayto'

And everyone like you that i have met, when i hear them say Ben, it sounds completely wrong.

Some of these people are pretty advanced in Thai, yet they insist on sounding it like Ben instead of bpen, it sounds horrible but yeah, you can still understand what they mean.

Though with j and ch, you'll never ben understood as you'll be using the wrong words.

Like i said previously, the only way to use CH in this spot is to do CHJ chhhhhjaan

ch by itself is completely wrong, j by itself isnt

Don't listen to dumbnuggets that get to chose transliteration because of their family name. Most of them couldn't run a profitable 7/11 even if t was in a non-competition 20 block radius

Every single non brainwashed thai will tell you that its J and roll their eyes at the government.

[bamukloy]

well, i am first to admit i am no expert, but in the case of such words as....จูบ....for example...

For me, the CH and J sounds seem to intermingle in much the same way that B and P do, when producing the word Bpen.

Thats the way i approach it anyway and i dont seem to have any trouble being understood.

Certainly, to my ears, when listening to Thais saying the 'kiss' word i cannot tell if ch or j is more dominant.

Having an argument over it (or debate shall we say) makes about as much sense as arguing over who right or wrong in 'you say tomarto and i say tomayto'

And everyone like you that i have met, when i hear them say Ben, it sounds completely wrong.

Some of these people are pretty advanced in Thai, yet they insist on sounding it like Ben instead of bpen, it sounds horrible but yeah, you can still understand what they mean.

Though with j and ch, you'll never ben understood as you'll be using the wrong words.

Like i said previously, the only way to use CH in this spot is to do CHJ chhhhhjaan

ch by itself is completely wrong, j by itself isnt

Don't listen to dumbnuggets that get to chose transliteration because of their family name. Most of them couldn't run a profitable 7/11 even if t was in a non-competition 20 block radius

Every single non brainwashed thai will tell you that its J and roll their eyes at the government.

So, you dont know me, never heard me speak, but make this assumption 'guys like me' wont be understood..now that takes some talent i must say!

I guess my 12 months at a Thai language school being taught by 3 different teachers was wasted lol.

Buddy, you can spell your English version of Thai till the cows come home, but it amounts to nothing more than guesswork for anyone reading it and not hearing the word spoken.

which is why i asked for the Thai spelling of chan, which you seem to have your nose out of joint over for some reason.

But your English explanation spelling 'chan' for woman and the same 'chan' for storey and then somehow expecting the reader make two different comprehendable words out of that..

I must ask (since you brought it up) who is gonna be the one thats misunderstood here?

Sorry but that is just nonsensical.

As for your last paragraph... Well i am obviously a bit slow, but i havent got the foggiest idea what you are going on about

[eric67]

ฉัน is usually pronounced with a high tone.

So much so that it is often spelled ชั้น, especially in informal writing.

So chan (or better: chán) can mean both "floor" and the pronoun "I"

[bamukloy]

Just to demonstrate that there is no guesswork in reading:

จาน: (no tone): plate

Of which the first letter จ is known as จอ จาน in the alphabet, and in English jor JAan (plate)

ฉัน:chan (high tone): as used by woman

Of which first letter is ฉ and known as ฉอ ฉิ่ง in the thai alphabet, pronounced in English as chor CHing (symbols)

ชั้น (high tone): storey (of building)

The first letter being ช known as ชอ ช้าง in alphabet, chor CHang in english (elephant)

Thats my make on it and i hope it demostrates how you can improve quickly if you take the time to learn to read.

Its not that hard and really does take the guesswork out of it.

Having said that, I consider myself only of a very basic standard, so apologise for any mistakes. (beer has been consumed) so maybe Mole can edit any mistakes

[bearpolar]

ฉัน is usually pronounced with a high tone.

So much so that it is often spelled ชั้น, especially in informal writing.

So chan (or better: chán) can mean both "floor" and the pronoun "I"

Which shows that 12 months in a language school does not mean much if you don't know that

bamukloy

getting your panties in a bunch over me assuming you pronounce bpen "ben" after you've stated that you can interchange both letters with no difference in your head, is also nonsensical.

You are telling us that the letter b and letter p are the same sound?

With the information you've given us, theres no chance that you do not pronounce "bpen" as "ben"zine.

Also using "chan" for both words in latin letter poses no problem as far as understanding the word goes, its all about context.

It happens in many languages that the same words mean different things. Even with thai script a lot of words mean compeltely different things. You can'T mistake the chan "i" with "storey" in a sentence.

[bamukloy]

ฉัน is usually pronounced with a high tone.

So much so that it is often spelled ชั้น, especially in informal writing.

So chan (or better: chán) can mean both "floor" and the pronoun "I"

Which shows that 12 months in a language school does not mean much if you don't know that

bamukloy

getting your panties in a bunch over me assuming you pronounce bpen "ben" after you've stated that you can interchange both letters with no difference in your head, is also nonsensical.

You are telling us that the letter b and letter p are the same sound?

With the information you've given us, theres no chance that you do not pronounce "bpen" as "ben"zine.

Also using "chan" for both words in latin letter poses no problem as far as understanding the word goes, its all about context.

It happens in many languages that the same words mean different things. Even with thai script a lot of words mean compeltely different things. You can'T mistake the chan "i" with "storey" in a sentence.

I dont really understand what your motivation is on here, but i guess ill humour you..again.

In to lazy to set my system for Thai again to explain properly, as evidently you dont recognise any value in it.

I use the example in english as B and P combined, for beginners who struggle over the bpen (as in bpen kon ngoh) when they are learning as i had trouble with it at first.

Much the same way as id advise a beginner on combining B and P to form the word Bpai (to go) as opposed to bai (different meaning) and pai (different meaning)...which are words that English speakers struggle with at first since we dont have these variations of sounds.

Anyway, im happy to have learned some valuable things (to me) off mole and p thompson, (thank you both)

so therefor my motivation is to be as gracious as i can and hand it down (or at least maybe give something to think about) to members such as OP or other people who might be just starting out.

As for you my (american?) friend, i cant help but get the impression this is winding up as some kind of p×××××g contest for you.

Maybe if you post the relevant Thai script, along with your explanations in English, your lessons on here will hold a bit more weight and be a bit more understandable.

As there is more beer to be consumed this will be my last post here.

goodnight

or Ratree Sawatt if you prefer

[bearpolar]

For me, the CH and J sounds seem to intermingle in much the same way that B and P do, when producing the word Bpen.
Thats the way i approach it anyway and i dont seem to have any trouble being understood.

I always am a bit puzzled by "chan arai krap?"... in regards to asking about the floor/ storey of a building.
Many times i am on the elevator and ask others what floor they go to if i am nearest the button (its quite a common thing ,yes?)
I fear i am probably sounding the word 'plate' or the woman classifier word chan, but obviously in that situation (in the elevator) they know what i mean even if i am messing it up.

you wrote both oft these posts..

You mind giving the name of school you frequent?

[Aforek]

In songs, ฉัน:chan is also used by men

for me จาน and ฉัน have not at all the same sound, very easy to distinguish them; in French, these sounds don't exist, if phonetics I would write them " tjan " and " tchan ", not the same

phonetics is different according to different languages; for instance, "bpen", I don't know, I know "pen "; of course, ben and pen are not at all the same

[bearpolar]

That's because a french P is bp

[grumpyoldman]

As I see it you guys want to go romanizing the Thai language it's (not so) amazing that people from different countries with different "versions" of how Thai romanized into English should sound, and having an argument over language when you are writing (as I don't see you speaking directly with each other) on a forum board how you think it should be pronounced, written, in your particular language.

Yaa, gonna play chess with the checkers champion, beautiful.

Maybe TV can introduce a voice something or another................

P.S. and reason for edit: The French guys I worked with Thai people could not understand their English or Thai.

[djayz]

I just ask "gin arai dee krab" = What's good to eat. Has worked wonders for me so far.

[bearpolar]

next time use krap instead of krab, not a mistake you should be making after 1240 posts on a thai forum

It's suposed to sound like a piece of crap, not a crab that we eat.

[Richard W]

Not at all sure that the RTGST was arrived at by "the finest minds in the Kingdom" - more likely some Thai jobsworths with degrees in "English" from Thai Universities.

I recommend looking at the history of the RTGS, starting with Wikipedia, and looking at the sources. Typographical problems have hit the system hard. The low point came in 1968 - but it may also be when the RTGS started to became successful.

The main problem is that when it was created, using double vowels to represent long vowels was not a popular scheme. There is the additional disincentive that in Thai it seems more natural to regard the long vowels as fundamental and to treat the short vowels as modifications of them. This is one of the peculiarities of Thai.

[bow]

จาน

means plate

[Saastrajaa]

next time use krap instead of krab, not a mistake you should be making after 1240 posts on a thai forum

It's suposed to sound like a piece of crap, not a crab that we eat.

You're getting really annoying with your repeated attempts to force your stupid transliterations of Thai on others. This forum is about the use of Thai language, not an endless argument over how to transliterate Thai into the Roman alphabet, which is ultimately an exercise in futility. Nobody cares how you transliterate Thai.

[bearpolar]

next time use krap instead of krab, not a mistake you should be making after 1240 posts on a thai forum

It's suposed to sound like a piece of crap, not a crab that we eat.

You're getting really annoying with your repeated attempts to force your stupid transliterations of Thai on others. This forum is about the use of Thai language, not an endless argument over how to transliterate Thai into the Roman alphabet, which is ultimately an exercise in futility. Nobody cares how you transliterate Thai.

Well, id say thais do care if you pronounce your บ endings in "b" sound. Shows that you have no respect for them when you still don't know how to say the first word everybody learns.

ขอบคุณ with crab added would mean thanks mr crab

mr crab is wondering why long term foreigners are thanking him so much

[gk10002000]

Good to ask, but you might get the answer: "everything special'!

[bamukloy]

next time use krap instead of krab, not a mistake you should be making after 1240 posts on a thai forum

It's suposed to sound like a piece of crap, not a crab that we eat.

You're getting really annoying with your repeated attempts to force your stupid transliterations of Thai on others. This forum is about the use of Thai language, not an endless argument over how to transliterate Thai into the Roman alphabet, which is ultimately an exercise in futility. Nobody cares how you transliterate Thai.

well said. Why is it bi-polar trolls have to patroll even the language thread.

Go troll the joke forum bear polar

[wprime]

House special best translates to เมนูแนนำ (menu nae nam), so just make your appropriate statement with that.

[nrasmussen]

House special best translates to เมนูแนนำ (menu nae nam), so just make your appropriate statement with that.

Excuse me, but shouldn't that then be เมนู​แนะนำ?