Visa Question For The Netherlands

[lesw]

Hello, Can anyone advise?

I am a British National who has lived and worked for the last 20 years in the Netherlands.

I've came over to Thailand in January this year for a 3 month holiday. During the first few weeks I met and feel in love with my Thai GF. She lived with me for most of that holiday and at the end of my holiday I returned to my home in the Netherlands. I quickly arranged a new visa and I'm now back in Thailand.

We are expecting a baby in October and I would like to marry my GF and have her move back to live with me in the Netherlands.

I know it's relatively easy to get married here in Thailand but my question now is how easy will it be for me to take my new Thai wife back.

I'm not sure if my Nationality will complicate the issue. I assume I will have to go to the British Embassy in Bangkok first with an "affirmation letter", then have this translated. Then to her local amphur to have a marriage registered. But after that I'm not so sure. Do I change my status at the British or Dutch embassies, or both? I will then apply for a residency visa at the Dutch embassy. But I'm not sure how difficult it is to obtain one for my new wife. Is it as difficult a procedure as for a tourist visa?

Anyone with help or advice is welcome to respond.

Thanks

[Richard W2]

Hello, Can anyone advise? 

I am a British National who has lived and worked for the last 20 years in the Netherlands.

I know it's relatively easy to get married here in Thailand but my question now is how easy will it be for me to take my new Thai wife back [to the Netherlands - RW2].

I'm not sure if my Nationality will complicate the issue. I assume I will have to go to the British Embassy in Bangkok first with an "affirmation letter", then have this translated. Then to her local amphur to have a marriage registered. But after that I'm not so sure. Do I change my status at the British or Dutch embassies, or both? I will then apply for a residency visa at the Dutch embassy. But I'm not sure how difficult it is to obtain one for my new wife. Is it as difficult a procedure as for a tourist visa? 

Unless you're planning to make your wife Dutch, it should be a lot easier than getting her into England on a settlement visa, let alone a visitor visa.

You are working in Netherlands under the free movement of labour clauses of the Treaty of Rome. They permit you to bring your wife and children with you. If you were a Dutchman coming to England, you would find things far faster than if you were a normal British citizen. In British terms, you are a national of the European Economic Area.

If you move back to England, at least if returning to work, from the Netherlands, you can chose to come back as a citizen of the European Economic Area rather than as a mere Briton. That agains makes bringing your family with you easier and cheaper. However, I would hope that by then getting a settlement visa would be easy, because you will have been living together for several years. Keep bank statements etc. to demonstrate continnuing to live together.

The problem with using the Treaty of Rome provisions is that, in Britain, your wife would not gain indefinite leave to remain for four years. If you do things as merely a Briton, she would not get indefinite leave for two years. (I don't know what the rules are for the Netherlands.) Why should this worry you? Because you might fall under a bus leaving your wife with a very limited right to remain in your home.

I hope this helps you look up the relevant procedures.

The Netherlands may be easier to get into than England, anyway, from my very limited knowledge.

To Admins: I apologise for using a second ID - I am on my lunch break at work and my password for Richard W is at home - I couldn' t guess it, and I'm not sure I'm allowed to access my private e-mail account at work.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Don't tell me you play computers at work Richard.

[Dutchy]

You'd better contact the Dutch embassy, things are more complicated than they used to be now. There are also language requirements in place for foreigners married to Dutchmen, which you obviously are not. She'd have to learn Dutch anyway to comply to the Dutch integration policy.

Good luck

Dutchy

[dr_Pat_Pong]

A three or four month relationship isn't going to impress the Embassy much at all

[Richard W]

On the other hand, pregnancy seemed to soften hearts at the UK consulate a few years ago.

Take heart from this Dutch court decision. It surprises me slightly; I would have thought your wife would have needed a visa of some sort to get past check-in at the airport. Perhaps there is a difference between Ukrainians and Thais, or maybe it just means that the short stay visa is enough. (I had a nasty few seconds last year when someone at the airport nearly stopped my wife coming home to the UK because her Thai passport had less than six months validity - another member of the staff pointed out that that was irrelevant as she had indefinite leave to remain in the UK.)

Remember that your rights are different to a Dutchman's! The Dutch IND site confirms that the procedure is different for non-Dutch EU citizen's families.

[anamore]

lesw

The site from Ministerie van Justitie (refered to by Richard) gives all the information needed. Your girlfriend needs to apply for the visitors visa by the Netherlands ambassade in bqq, before coming to Holland. The first requirement is that you have a steady job with enough income to support both and a house. What's enough they will tell you at the embassy.

Before giving her this visitors visa they will check your situation in Holland. (that is the vreemdelingendienst, the gemeente en the belastingdienst).

Be aware that whatever you say you have to prove it. They will also go to your boss to know if you are realy having a job and keeping it.

Getting married beforehand doesn't make things easier and a pregnant woman can't count om other kind of treatment than one who is not pregnant. Even if the child is born in holland it doesn't became dutch,without dutch parents.

Working free lance of doing seasonwork won't help. The government won't give you welfare for you and your family to be.

There are lots of negative story's about thai women going around, so your gf should try to make a good and educated impression.

If she gets this first visa she can go to Holland but has to go to the vreemdeling politie within 3 days to apply for another kind of visa.

Take care of this things as soon as possible as it all takes months to get ready. If she/you get a negative answer you can appeal, but don't believe it'll help much.when they make their decision they stick to it.

I'm dutch and know this matters a bit.

wish you luck

[anamore]

Richard, like you wrote on that other topic (the horse who wants to go to Spain with thai gf) applying for visa based on the Agreement of Rome doesn't help anything.

The national law is the one that matters (soveranity) and people travelling around if they want to settle down somewhere under legal premisses have to be able to meet the demands of the law.

The horse as english in spain of an english in holland, can't say: I have the right to be here therefore my family also. If they don't meet the financial requirements the government wil just say: Ok you can be together but not here, so if you choose to be here (this in the case of the english in holland) you also choose to be separated.

The horse in Spain still has to prove he has work and earns enough to be there if he wants to be there legally. The only place where they have the undoubtfull right of staying is UK (this is implicit to the right of nationality (each national has on his own country).

The horse could stil be caught by spanish of other european police if a demand for arrest is registered by Interpol, and be handed over to UK authority.

He has the kind of appearence that wakes up customsworkers at the airports, don't u think so?

[Richard W]

Richard, like you wrote on that other topic (the horse who wants to go to Spain with thai gf) applying for visa based on the Agreement of Rome doesn't help anything.

The national law is the one that matters (soveranity) and people travelling around if they want to settle down somewhere under legal premisses have to be able to meet the demands of the law.

I was under the distinct impression that sovereignty had been conceded. Has only the UK conceded sovereignty? While they must meet the demands of the law, different laws apply to stay-at-home natives and nationals of other EU countries. As I read the IND site (not that I know Dutch), a Dutchman's wife would need a visa for more than a 3 month stay; an Englishman's wife needs a certificate of legal residence. (However, I couldn't work out how she would apply for one from outside the Netherlands.) If I understand you correctly, the difference is that a Dutchman's wife needs a visa for more than a 3 month stay; an Englishman's wife needs only a visa for less than a 3 month stay.

Has anyone been abled to find out more about the court decision I quoted? All the reference to it said was that a Frenchman's Ukrainian wife does not need an MVV to join him in the Netherlands.

The horse as english in spain of an english in holland, can't say: I have the right to be here therefore my family also. If they don't meet the financial requirements the government wil just say: Ok you can be together but not here, so if you choose to be here (this in the case of the english in holland) you also choose to be separated.

I know that the law in England used to discriminate against the natives. To bring family members over (unless they are themselves British), a native must show that he can support and accommodate them without recourse to public funds. I remember, around 1995, a Portuguese couple brought their 3 children over to a bedsit, making the landlady guilty of overcrowding if she tolerated the situation. The game plan, which worked, was for them to be given notice to quit and thereby jump to the top of the queue for council houses. It worked. They got a council house (not a flat!) with garden within four weeks. If the children had been Australian of Portuguese descent, I doubt they would have been let into the country.

About 1996, a Spanish girl brought her Malay boyfriend over on a fiancé visa and married him. I believe that was under the rules applicable to all settled persons. He got the visa stamp allowing him to work almost immediately. They applied under a special process for EU nationals. She told me that British girls who brought foreign boyfriends over found there was a long wait between the marriage and their getting the visa stamp allowing them to work.

Singh established that in some circumstances a Briton could get the rights of a foreign EU national. It's highly unlikely that that case would have been fought if there were not sometimes some advantage in being treated as, say, a German rather than as a Briton.

It's conceivable that processing times have now been brought into line.

To bring EU family members to the UK, the visa application form is different (it's the same form as for students and visitors) to the one used for settlement by families of non-non-British EU residents (i.e. British or non-EEA). There also a special visa rate - there's no charge! I checked yesterday at the UK goverment's visa site. The definition of family is different. For foreign EU citizens, children of the citizen and spouse are admitted up to the age of 21 . For others (British or non-EEA), non-British children are admitted only up to the age of 18, and may be excluded if another parent will continue to reside abroad, and the family must be able to maintain and accommodate them without recourse to the public purse. The exclusion rules are complex, and are nothing like as simple as one would believe from reading the immigration rules. There is a lot of case law in this area.

The horse in Spain still has to prove he has work and earns enough to be there if he wants to be there legally. The only place where they have the undoubtfull right of staying is UK (this is implicit to the right of  nationality (each national has on his own country)).

There are two ways a Spaniard and his family can qualify to be in the UK. He can be working here, or he can be able to support himself and his family. I am stunned if Britons do not have reciprocal rights in Spain.

[Richard W]

For those interested, the immigration privileges of EU nationals in the UK are given in Guidance - EEA & Swiss Nationals. Have I got anything wrong?

[Richard W]

The national law is the one that matters (soveranity) and people travelling around if they want to settle down somewhere under legal premisses have to be able to meet the demands of the law.

As to national law applying, see UK Immigration Directorate's Instructions Chapter 7 Section 3 and note all the references to the European court of Justice (ECJ). You can't be excluded for being a murderer! (Serial murderers can be excluded.) If lesw's girlfriend had been a prostitute, I can't even see how they could legally use that against her if the Dutch rules are like the British rules! (My knowledge of Dutch law on the matter is limited to the British 'van der Valk' series, so is rather shaky.)

Neither 'lesw' or 'horse' could sensibly be accused of using the 'Surinder Singh' route to evade EU immigration rules, and there has been a challenge to the rule, 'This judgement does not benefit a British Citizen who has exercised treaty rights in another Member State solely to enable his family member to evade Immigration Control.'. I don't know what the outcome is in that legal case. In horse's case, there isn't much scope for his type of time-share tout in Britain.

Do not these rules or the like apply to the rest of the EU? Only to the UK?

Of course, it is grossly unfair that Thai women can't bring their husbands into Thailand the same way British women can. I'm in a position where I may have to use the Surinder Singh route for my stepdaughter, so I have an interest in the immigration privileges of foreign EU citizens. I may have to say goodbye to the UK without being rich enough to live in Thailand.

[Richard W]

Neither 'lesw' or 'horse' could sensibly be accused of using the 'Surinder Singh' route to evade EU immigration rules, and there has been a challenge to the rule, 'This judgement does not benefit a British Citizen who has exercised treaty rights in another Member State solely to enable his family member to evade Immigration Control.'. I don't know what the outcome is in that legal case.

On further digging, the evasion appears to be legally sound - see Ruling on Surinder Singh Evasion Ruling. It loks as though I could keep the house in the UK and go and be a roadsweeper in Dublin for a year. (Emigrating would deskill me.)

[anamore]

Richard W to say it in other words:

If you go to live in an european country, you register at the countryhall or at the police and you also get a taxnumber.

If you have work/business and earn enough you can stay, if you don't work but have funds or some kind of income enough to live from you can stay. If you have family with you you have to prove that you can also support them and you need to have familylife with them.

What's enough money is decided in the law and not up to the persoon to decide, because the government wont give welfare benefits to citiziens of other european countries, unless they have build up rights by working and paying taxes in this new country.

Of course the first requirement is that the persoon is not considered a danger for the security of the country.

greetings

anamore

[anamore]

Hi Richard,

you giving me a lot of work reading this lawtexts in english, because english is not my motherlanguage and lawdecisions have many but's and considerations before they get to the point.

Anyway because working with the law is my job and I enjoy it I don't go out of the way when I find something interesting and want to learn all ins and outs about it.

Analize this:

keyfacts:

1- non eu citizien expelled from Britain

2- " " illegally back in Britain and legally married to british national

3- 1 year married life in Britain

4- couple moves together to Ireland half year married life there

5- demand of legal stay in britain based on the half year stay in ireland

Considerations of the court

-according to communityrights a eu-citizien can work in other eu-state and has the right to have with him his spouse from a non eu-country;

-the fact that the couple moved to Ireland with the intention of claiming europeanunionrights, which means abuse the facilities of the law to 'create' a right to move legally back to britain is considered fraud but in this case isn't used to affect the communityrights of both

-there is a marriage of one and half year which by the court is considered genuine (no fraud of deceiving authorities to get eu rights thru a papper marriage)

Decision:

Because of this true marriage there is familylife as described in the treaty which is a principle which overrules (i mean is stronger,higher) the applyable national rules and therefore based upon this the court decides that the couple has the right to legally live in Britain

In fact they didn't have to go to Ireland. But the question is: would the british court recognize their right to familylife if they had asked for legally stay just prior or after the marriage? Probably not. Based om the history of being illegal and thrown out more than once, authorities probably would have said that this marriage wasn't genuine but a cover to legally stay in the country. And the couple would have no way of proving their good intentions. So they would have to appeal.

And before they could do something the fellow would be thrown out again and the differente courtcases costing at least 2 or 3 years would break the couple. However waiting for a decision on appeal should mean delay of performing the decision until the higher court speakes out, most of the times the police just puts unwanted people on the plane back home. And a couple of years late when the decision of the court is made and gets publicized, poeple are far gone and busy with a new life. But they open the way for similar cases in the future.

I hope I was clear with this text, however it's 6,30 in the morning, I didn't sleep and have to start at 9 o'clok.

beste regards

anamore

[Richard W]

Richard W to say it in other words:

...

If you have family with you you have to prove that you can also support them and you need to have family life with them.

...

I don't think I said that; I certainly never intended to. I don't think it's true for EU nationals in other EU coutries. The UK interpretation is 'working' or 'sufficient funds', not and. Of course, there may be some subtle definition of 'working' that implies a living wage, but that is a different issue.

Own country nationals and resident aliens often do have to face more strenuous conditions.

[anamore]

indeed Richard the one or the other both is not requested. as long as there is money enough.

By the way about pregnancy: Ireland is the only country in europe where a newborn, unregarded the nationality of the mother of father or even without known father, gets irish nationality by birth. Short ago the government decided they wil change this law as soon as possible because there are different threads of smugglers bringing pregant women into the country from outside the eu with the sole intent of getting a child with irish nationality as a way to move freely in all the other eu countries. Conclusion: No need to pitty pregnant women they know well what they want and how to take advantage of the situation.

[Richard W]

As a back-up to what I have been saying, see Getting a visa for members of your family who are not nationals of a member state - Netherlands! The page is 6 years old, but the link from the EU (i.e. ultimately authorised by the European Commission, subject to warnings about errors) site's home page exists.

It would be nice to hear from 'lesw' whether all this has been useful.

[lesw]

You're quite right it's about time I mentioned that I had been quietly checking back from time to time to see what comments had been made.

First let me say that I appreciate all the input made. I have also been in touch by email with the Dutch immigration service in the Netherlands. I explained my situation and they have replied. I asked questions regarding my British Nationality, my employment situation and the required documents.

Here was the response:

Q: As I still have British Nationality how will this affect my options?

A: You can read more about the conditions in the following brochure: The admission of EU and Swiss citizens to the Netherlands.url One of the conditions for bringing a partner under the EU-rules is that you are married. Only then do the favourable rules concerning the income apply. If you are not married, your partner can only acquire a residence permit for partner reunification if all normal national rules for this are met. As an Britisch national, your partner won't be needing a MVV. Only a visa for short-term is enough to come to the Netherlands and then apply for a residence permit, at the town hall for the application of this permit).

Q: Because I am on unemployment benefit (UVV) How will this affect my future wife's request for residency for the Netherlands?

A: As an European Citizen who works in Holland, you are a so called "gemeenschapsonderdaan". The wife of a "gemeenschapsonderdaan" is also a "gemeenschapsonderdaan". This means that she could have legal residence on the basis of the European Treaty at the moment you are married. The conditions which you have to satisfy are that she has insurance and that you will have to have enough income to provide her (at least EUR1103,34 nett each month).

Q: I have read many horror stories about difficulties other people have had obtaining residency visas for their partners I would like to ask if you can advise what paperwork I will need to provide to the Dutch Embassy in Bangkok when applying for her mvv as the embassy's website does not appear to make any specific requests apart from marriage documents? I had asked a similar question to the emabassy by email but they just pointed me back to your website.

A: The passport of your wife, legalised and translated marriage certificate and a copy of the passport of you and at last, documents giving evidence of your income.

I will advise the board in the future as we go through the process.