New water pump for 2-story townhouse -- what to look for?

[wpcoe]

My water pump is starting to worry me. It's never been quiet, but recently it started galloping at about double the previous speed when flushing the toilet, for instance. Shower pressure also pulsates noticeably (and annoyingly) more than it did. Started doing this about three days ago. Previously, the pump would engage about every two seconds for about a second, IIRC, and now it gallops away 2x per second.

Firstly, is this something to be worried about, other than the annoying noise it makes?

Secondly, if it is nearly its life's end, what features/specs should be sought in a new pump? The current one doesn't really give adequate pressure to shower in the upstairs bathroom, so I've been showering downstairs. Would be nice to take a shower upstairs, so what pressure (or other?) rating should I be looking for?

I turned the pump off overnight to see if maybe some circuit, capacitor or something would reset, but it didn't.

The pump is situated between a storage tank and the house, i.e. the municipal water line sporadically dribble feeds the tank, and then the pump sucks water from the tank on demand and forces it into the plumbing in the house.

[bankruatsteve]

Buy a new 250W Hitachi.

[KhunBENQ]

Previously, the pump would engage about every two seconds for about a second, IIRC, and now it gallops away 2x per second.

Firstly, is this something to be worried about, other than the annoying noise it makes?

Worry!

The thing won't live too long in such extraordinary state.

What kind of pump is it? Best specify exact model nr.

Does it have pressure tank attached at the bottom?

If yes then so called "water clogging" could be the problem.

If you want to buy a new one:

for two story townhouse a 255 Watt Mitsubishi with pressure tank would do a good job.

Edited May 11, 2016 by KhunBENQ

[wpcoe]

Here's a photo of the pump with its white top cover removed and sitting beside it:

The label says:

Hitachi

EX Series

WT-P

155 EX

Japan

Is there an easy remedy for "water clogging"? I googled "water clogging" and didn't see anything that seemed relevant to a runaway water pump. If I can ease another six months or so out of the pump, that would be nice.

Tomorrow I'm going to be at the local mall which has a HomePro and I'll try to remember to see if they have a 250W Hitachi and/or a 255W Mitsubishi, and how much they cost.

Another symptom is a drastic increase in the random cycles of the pump. Previously it would turn on for maybe one cycle every couple hours (? not sure, because never timed it, but it wasn't very frequent) and I attributed that to some small leak somewhere in the plumbing slowly bleeding off the pressure. Since the monthly water bill is only B47 and my electric bills have been modest, I didn't really care. Now, it seems to be doing a cycle about every 35 seconds. Based on KhunBENQ's subtle "Worry!" I've been turning off the pump when I know I won't need water for a while.

[edited to add:] With the help of a Google search and Google Translate, this appears to be the specs for my current pump:

(PS to Mods: I intended to put this in the DIY forum section, not Electrical. Can you move it, please, unless you think it should stay here. Thanks)

Edited May 11, 2016 by wpcoe

[SantiSuk]

Water clogging is that poster's way of describing the situation where the blue tank below the business end of the pump unit partly fills with water. It is meant to contain mostly air which provides the right kind of pressure to pressurise the system and deliver sufficient oomph at your taps and showers. Your existing unit or its 255 Mitsubishi equivalent should work fine in a two storey town house and I would not expect you to be complaining about shower pressure if your unit was working as designed.

If you are a DIYer it is possible to eliminate any excess water from your bottom tank and do other adjustments. Google "water pump air adjustment crossey thaivisa.com". [Crossey is a regular DIY guru on here].

Alternatively most larger towns (provincial capitals and some ampur towns) have specialist pump shops who will send someone to look at your pump and see whether it is fixable or needs replacing. It's a case of asking around. Try your Thai partner/ any friends/local falang bar/watsadus where pumpz are sold.

If you need a replacement it should cost about 12 to 13k. You might find a 1k saving if you have the luxury of several watsadus to choose from (I did when I bought a Misubishi WP255 3 months ago). They are easy enough to install with a little knowledge from ThaiV threads if you are that way inclined. I installed mine when the village pump guy (doubled as the local motor bike mechanic!) advised that mine was shot. However damn thing didn't work at all out of the box so he came round and did some regulatory adjustments (twice until it worked perfectly).

[wpcoe]

Thanks for explaining water clogging. I have a friend up the street who's kind of a fixit guy and will see if he's able/willing to handle it. At a previous townhouse he was able to "unjam" a water pump that had frozen up from being idle for a long period, so it's worth a shot. If not, he probably knows who to contact.

This is a rental and I don't mind fixing things as they break, but kind of choke at thought of paying B12k-13k for a new pump. If this one can't be coaxed to keep going, it's time to talk to the owner. Toward the end of this year I'm going to decide if I'm staying in this townhouse or if I can move back to my previous one, which I liked better. That's why I'm hoping to keep this pump going a bit longer.

FWIW, at my previous townhouse with a water pump of a similar age, the upstairs shower also lacked decent water pressure and I showered downstairs.

[Crossy]

The username is Crossy

But yes, it sounds awfully like a waterlogged pressure tank.

Should be an easy fix.

[tracker]

I have erratic behaviour of my pump every couple years. It's a pump connected to the house but also with a checkvalve to the citywater supply. So when the pressure of the citywater supply is high enough, my pump does not work but when pressure drops and maybe no water at all is supplied, my pump, connected to a big storage tank, take over.

It turns out that this checkvalve needs to be cleaned every two years or so. When it is dirty, it might stay open a bit, in which case, my pump starts to apply pressure to the citywater supply. I have 2 checkvalves. 1 in use and 1 that after cleaning awaits its turn to be used.

If you have the same setup, check or replace your checkvalve

[Sophon]

Thanks for explaining water clogging. I have a friend up the street who's kind of a fixit guy and will see if he's able/willing to handle it. At a previous townhouse he was able to "unjam" a water pump that had frozen up from being idle for a long period, so it's worth a shot. If not, he probably knows who to contact.

This is a rental and I don't mind fixing things as they break, but kind of choke at thought of paying B12k-13k for a new pump. If this one can't be coaxed to keep going, it's time to talk to the owner. Toward the end of this year I'm going to decide if I'm staying in this townhouse or if I can move back to my previous one, which I liked better. That's why I'm hoping to keep this pump going a bit longer.

FWIW, at my previous townhouse with a water pump of a similar age, the upstairs shower also lacked decent water pressure and I showered downstairs.

Should you need it a new 250W water pump should be more like in the region of 6k-7k Baht. Here are the current prices from DirectToShop (Home Pro):

Mitsubishi WP-255 Q5 Baht 6.500

Hitachi WT-P250GX2 Baht 6.490

But as mentioned, you can probably easily fix your current pump.

Sophon

[Jeffrey346]

I just replaced my pump with an Hitachi WM P350GX on sale at Home Pro B6700. Installed it myself.. took about an hour...

[crazykopite]

Grundforce is a fantastic pump my build is 3 floors and the pressure on all floors is the best ever before I had a mitzibushi yellow type pump . Grind force is a Belgium made pump couple of thousand baht more but well worth it if you want high end pressure

[ehs818]

I have a Mitsubishi pump at my two story rental townhouse. When I moved in it was cycling on and off literally every 15 seconds. Would not straighten itself out. After having several 'experts' look at it, I went to HomePro and they explained the problem to me and how to fix that, in very decent English too. The pump simply needed to be PRIMED. To do that, you turn off the inline valves on the intake side, and the exit side of pump. Turned out that whoever had installed my pump never put an inline valve on the exit side. So I bought I cheap pipe cutter, a few 90 degree pipe fittings and a length of straight pipe, and a small can of glue. Took 15 minutes. After that I did as they had suggested, primed the pump by pouring water into the proper opening inside the housing unit, closed it up, and voila!! Problem solved. I only understand basic plumbing, but cut and glue is easy. Solved the issue without needing a new pump or paying someone else to again try to do it wrong. The cheapness and laziness of whoever had installed it was such a simple thing to fix, once I understood the problem. I'd never had this type of pump before in my 60 years of life, so now I've learned a new skill that I can help others with. Good luck with yours.

Edited May 12, 2016 by ehs818

[bankruatsteve]

The OP says his current pump doesn't provide adequate pressure to the upstairs. Could be the 155W just doesn't have the head required. IE: can maybe "fix" the waterlogged issue but still need more head. 250W is usually good for 2nd floor. I would go with constant pressure type for a new one.

[Generalchaos]

Unplug the pump, open a tap farthest from the pump and drain the water.

On the pump there should be a large (3/4" or similar) plug with a large cross head or socket type fitting.

Slowly remove this and have a pan ready to catch the water that comes out.

Once drained, replace the plug, close the tap, turn on the pump and it should be bled correctly.

[Sophon]

Grundforce is a fantastic pump my build is 3 floors and the pressure on all floors is the best ever before I had a mitzibushi yellow type pump . Grind force is a Belgium made pump couple of thousand baht more but well worth it if you want high end pressure

I think you are talking about Grundfos, a Danish company. Yes, Grundfos makes some of the best pumps in the world, but they are also quite expensive.

Sophon

[Jedsada3]

Hello,

When I look on the pic of your pump I get a smile.

If they turned it 90° clockwise, it would have been too easy... The more elbows in the circuit, the more the pressure will drop.

If you buy a new pump and install it by yourself, try to use 45° elbows instead of 90°, the drop is 2 times higher in a 90° elbow than in a 45° elbow.

And before you buy a bigger pump, you should check the condition of the existing pipes. If they are affected by the age they might not support higher pressure (from 155(W) to 255(W) is more than 60% power increase!)

But first of all, you should let check the pump. As mentioned above, there should be air in the (blue) tank of the pump.

[KhunBENQ]

The OP says his current pump doesn't provide adequate pressure to the upstairs. Could be the 155W just doesn't have the head required. IE: can maybe "fix" the waterlogged issue but still need more head. 250W is usually good for 2nd floor. I would go with constant pressure type for a new one.

I join that.

We have a two story house and the 255 W pump is just right for a decent shower and operating a front loader washing machine ("western type") in the upper floor.

So the OP should clear the waterlog first and then decide whether the result is satisfactory.

If not, see suggestions above.

[masuk]

Hello,

When I look on the pic of your pump I get a smile.

If they turned it 90° clockwise, it would have been too easy... The more elbows in the circuit, the more the pressure will drop.

If you buy a new pump and install it by yourself, try to use 45° elbows instead of 90°, the drop is 2 times higher in a 90° elbow than in a 45° elbow.

And before you buy a bigger pump, you should check the condition of the existing pipes. If they are affected by the age they might not support higher pressure (from 155(W) to 255(W) is more than 60% power increase!)

But first of all, you should let check the pump. As mentioned above, there should be air in the (blue) tank of the pump.

I wonder if anyone has had the problem I encountered when I moved to a pleasant 2-story house? The water pressure was not good, even after the landlady had a new pump installed.

I took the shower head off, gave it a few thumps and a heap of small charcoal bits came out. Same on all the other taps and toilet.

I assume the charcoal was part of the water purification process at the plant. Anyway, removal of the debris sorted out the problem, and no more worries.

[siamcrut]

All you need to know is in the chart.

[DavoTheGun]

You do NOT need to buy a new Pump, all you need to do is get a New Impeller for it, the get a y Strainer for suction side, will go for years more, the solids in the water wear the impeller, that is it Easy, about 200 Baht and away you go, an easy job!

[DavoTheGun]

Hello,

When I look on the pic of your pump I get a smile.

If they turned it 90° clockwise, it would have been too easy... The more elbows in the circuit, the more the pressure will drop.

If you buy a new pump and install it by yourself, try to use 45° elbows instead of 90°, the drop is 2 times higher in a 90° elbow than in a 45° elbow.

And before you buy a bigger pump, you should check the condition of the existing pipes. If they are affected by the age they might not support higher pressure (from 155(W) to 255(W) is more than 60% power increase!)

But first of all, you should let check the pump. As mentioned above, there should be air in the (blue) tank of the pump.

Sorry but in this case you are Quite Wrong, the pipes are reducing from 1" down to 1/2" sor it is not an issue, dont give the OP bad information!

[Hamselv2]

I have a Mitsubishi 255 pump, which had the same sypmtombs, ( and also live in a 2 story house) it showed out, after long times investigation, it was a pressure thing, that was leak, the service guy changed it, and now its okay, price 280 Baht, see the picture,

[Pdavies99]

If the pump keeps turning on and off, especially when no water demand then you may also have a leak somewhere. Have you checked your water tank / sump to see if full and not a lot of mud at the bottom?

[khunPer]

If you want to spend the money for quality, buy a Grundfos pump, otherwise both Mitsubishi and Hitachi are reasonable alternatives; but need to fit your demand for water-flow (l/min) and pressure (bar).

Sometimes it helps to drain all water out of the pump and restart, or change the capacitor; but if the motor has been overheated it may not be worth repairing an old pump, as you can find a new within the range of 4,500 to 7,000 baht.

[DavoTheGun]

If you want to spend the money for quality, buy a Grundfos pump, otherwise both Mitsubishi and Hitachi are reasonable alternatives; but need to fit your demand for water-flow (l/min) and pressure (bar).

Sometimes it helps to drain all water out of the pump and restart, or change the capacitor; but if the motor has been overheated it may not be worth repairing an old pump, as you can find a new within the range of 4,500 to 7,000 baht.

Changing the Capacitor will do nothing, it only starts the motor, also the Electric Motor either works or not, if it is Kaput, OK a new Pump, but if not only a new Impeller will do the job. why buy a new pump if not needed, these pumps are Peripheral Pumps and work on very close Tolerances so when this component is replaced the Pump is as good as NEW! Trust Me!

[wpcoe]

Wow, lots of info to digest. I just woke up (I'm a true night owl) and need to re-read all the "overnight" posts added and digest things slowly. Thanks!

[marios]

DOES IT HAVE A PRESSURE TANK AT THE BOTTOM? This is the key question. A pressure tank is a must for domestic pumps. It introduces elasticity to the hydraulic system. the pressure tank acts like a spring and smoothens out any pressure variations arising from opening or closing a faucet. There may be one (pressure tank) but may be defective (diaphragm ruptured). Water is incompressible so the opening of a faucet makes the pressure to drop rapidly. The pressure sensor sees that and gives command to the pump to start. After closing the faucet, almost instantaneously, the pump cuts in again and so on. My strong suspicion is due the pressure vessel. Make sure to choose the right diameter should you decide to replace it.

Previously, the pump would engage about every two seconds for about a second, IIRC, and now it gallops away 2x per second.

Firstly, is this something to be worried about, other than the annoying noise it makes?

Worry!

The thing won't live too long in such extraordinary state.

What kind of pump is it? Best specify exact model nr.

Does it have pressure tank attached at the bottom?

If yes then so called "water clogging" could be the problem.

If you want to buy a new one:

for two story townhouse a 255 Watt Mitsubishi with pressure tank would do a good job.

[xtrnuno41]

On youtube you see they change the barrel under the pump, probably it is a sort of expansion barrel.

You even see in a sort of company they have lots of those old barrels standing

As you describe no pressure up and continuous on/off switching.

It is a pressure problem by leakage. Your switch will work on it and should be located on the barrel.

ALso check ALL your plumbing going to your house, if there is no leak in it.

Check your water meter if the quantity is rising?!

And jeepers what a lot of bends in the plumbing, all consuming power aswell pressure loss.

[gandalf12]

If it is feeding the two floors which I assume it is check the outlet pressure. In the UK you would look for around 0.5 to 0.6 bar at a shower head plus the lift height. 30 feet is 1 bar

[khunPer]

If you want to spend the money for quality, buy a Grundfos pump, otherwise both Mitsubishi and Hitachi are reasonable alternatives; but need to fit your demand for water-flow (l/min) and pressure (bar).

Sometimes it helps to drain all water out of the pump and restart, or change the capacitor; but if the motor has been overheated it may not be worth repairing an old pump, as you can find a new within the range of 4,500 to 7,000 baht.

Changing the Capacitor will do nothing, it only starts the motor, also the Electric Motor either works or not, if it is Kaput, OK a new Pump, but if not only a new Impeller will do the job. why buy a new pump if not needed, these pumps are Peripheral Pumps and work on very close Tolerances so when this component is replaced the Pump is as good as NEW! Trust Me!

If some of the windings in the electric motor is damaged by overheating, the engine can still run, but with greatly reduced functionality; meaning reduced pump power. The windings can be changed, but you will need a replacement motor or replacement pump during repair – therefore, it may hardly be worth it, especially in case of relatively inexpensive pump. And in Thailand, the capacitor can easily start burning merrily and produce lots of smoke, while the motor is running. I speak from experience – unfortunately bad experience from unstable Thai electricity supply – with several water pumps in operation, in my house.