Rental home. Responsibility of owner / tenant

[Kenny202]

Been in our rental for 6 months now. Nice enough farang style home but quality of building attroscious as usual. They did none of the things they promised before we moved in, didn't even attempt to clean the place and it was awful. We arrived on the day with out furniture all on a truck and apart from not repairing the issues and not cleaning the home, they tried to jack the rent up 8k THB a month! We did the deal with the male owner of the home, through an agent. Agreed on conditions, lease term and rent amount. All done. The day we got here the mans wife was here and said he agreed to the rental price without her knowledge, should have been more if she'd have known, then she tried to reduce the lease term. I was fuming! Typical Thai see you in a trap and start to try and put the boots in. Anyway, luckily the wife has a lot more patience than me she sat down with them and was all sorted in the end. The husband told his wife he'd already agreed with us and that was that. The agent tried to tell us that only yesterday shed paid 1000 baht to a cleaning lady (what a crock) and they hadn't done a good job. She actually brought cleaning items etc to do the job herself. (She never actually did it). Clearly no cleaning lady had been here and it was all a BS face saving charade. Now I'm not hard to get on with or pedantic. I wasn't that fazed about the cleaning of the home even the broken items. I could fix a lot of it myself and live with the rest. Jesus it put a nasty taste in my mouth though. Like I said. Typical Thai, promise you the world and give you an Atlas.

After all of that I penned an email to the agent to pass on to the owner stating our concern and listing the broken / wear and tear items as it would be apparent these type of people would use any excuse later to try and keep our bond. One of my concerns was the water pump outside. It ran and ran and never got up to pressure which indicated to me a leak somewhere. There was no apparent leak like a running faucet or water on the floor anywhere but possibly an underground or internal leak somewhere. Just using the mains water you could see the meter turning with everything turned off. I noted this in my letter. The owner said he had it checked but that was BS.

Anyway....water bill wasn't severe (under 500 baht month) so wasn't phazed too much but has been steadily getting more expensive until this month 1500 baht and we have pools of water at the side of the house. I had a bit of a dig around but cant see anywhere obvious where the water is coming from. It does appear to be coming from under the slab or in the wall.

We rang the agent this morning and she immediately tried (subtly) to cast the responsibility onto us and I can see where it is going. Where do I stand in this sort of situation? I assume a building issue like this, providing I haven't dug up a pipe or accidentally broken something is the landlords responsibility?

PS: We have a months rent in advance and 2 months rent as bond. From what they told us the last owner left the house in a terrible state and even stole a few items. They said he just stopped paying rent and bailed.

Even though the state of the house now is 500% better than we moved in, including me taking care of the gardens etc, if we wanted to move out should we just stop paying rent and go and use our deposit up that way? I know they will use every excuse they can when our lease is up in a year to keep our money.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Kenny202

[KittenKong]

The rule is Thailand is very simple: never pay ANYTHING until the job/service has been performed to your complete satisfaction. Promises here are just lies.

Will they try and rip you off again? Of course they will.

[ripley]

What I can’t understand is why, when you arrived at the place and could see that the agreement you’d made with the owner/agent hadn’t been implemented – why did you move in?? I know it would have been inconvenient, but more inconvenience than you suffer now?

Kitten Kong’s reply above should be engraved in gold on a stone scroll somewhere as a warning to foreigners seeking to rent or purchase.

There are a lot of people in your situation who have written into TVF. Maybe it’s time that some knowledgeable soul start a topic listing warnings, proper protective procedures and options for someone caught in the web, as you are.

I have four: 1.)Don’t be in such an all-fired hurry to move in that you overlook your own best interests.

2.) Check out a place a few days before your move-in date

3.) Never put down money on a place that doesn’t meet your requirements on somebody’s “guarantee” that all will be repaired,etc. Remember – there are many, many condos and houses out there for rent.

4.) If you’re willing to pay an agreed rent on a place, you shouldn’t be expected to “make do” with something less than promised and so should not fall into that trap. Because anyone here can tell you IT NEVER ENDS.

Any volunteers???? Hope so.

[worgeordie]

Did you get a written rental agreement ?,with amount of rent,length of lease,details of contents etc,

signed by the owner,and yourself,and two witnesses.

I would never dream of letting a house out that had not been cleaned,and repairs done,before a

tenant moved in, but for some Thai landlords that's seems to be the norm,here it is take it or leave it.

Regards the water leak,turn all the taps,off in the house,then go and look at the meter,if its going round,

you have a leak,if it's not obviously not leaking anywhere inside the house,it will be under the house as

you suspect, but from your experiences with the landlord so far,I would guess he is never going to fix it.

When your contract is at an end,I would not be paying the last 2 months,because with a landlord like

that I would say you will never receive your deposit back,dont leave any forwarding address.

There are so many houses to rent,no need to settle for 2 nd best,its important you also find a landlord

to do any repairs that occur.

regards worgeordie

[Kenny202]

What I can’t understand is why, when you arrived at the place and could see that the agreement you’d made with the owner/agent hadn’t been implemented – why did you move in?? I know it would have been inconvenient, but more inconvenience than you suffer now?

Kitten Kong’s reply above should be engraved in gold on a stone scroll somewhere as a warning to foreigners seeking to rent or purchase.

There are a lot of people in your situation who have written into TVF. Maybe it’s time that some knowledgeable soul start a topic listing warnings, proper protective procedures and options for someone caught in the web, as you are.

I have four: 1.)Don’t be in such an all-fired hurry to move in that you overlook your own best interests.

2.) Check out a place a few days before your move-in date

3.) Never put down money on a place that doesn’t meet your requirements on somebody’s “guarantee” that all will be repaired,etc. Remember – there are many, many condos and houses out there for rent.

4.) If you’re willing to pay an agreed rent on a place, you shouldn’t be expected to “make do” with something less than promised and so should not fall into that trap. Because anyone here can tell you IT NEVER ENDS.

Any volunteers???? Hope so.

easier said than done with a truck full of your stuff and nowhere to go! Not only were they unrepentant about not following through on the agreement, they tried to screw us for more. Talk about a turnaround. I haven't found rentals at a reasonable price easy to find either, apart from Condos.

Apart from a couple of times I don't think I've ever had one pleasant business transaction here. If they can screw you they will.

[Kenny202]

Did you get a written rental agreement ?,with amount of rent,length of lease,details of contents etc,

signed by the owner,and yourself,and two witnesses.

I would never dream of letting a house out that had not been cleaned,and repairs done,before a

tenant moved in, but for some Thai landlords that's seems to be the norm,here it is take it or leave it.

Regards the water leak,turn all the taps,off in the house,then go and look at the meter,if its going round,

you have a leak,if it's not obviously not leaking anywhere inside the house,it will be under the house as

you suspect, but from your experiences with the landlord so far,I would guess he is never going to fix it.

When your contract is at an end,I would not be paying the last 2 months,because with a landlord like

that I would say you will never receive your deposit back,dont leave any forwarding address.

There are so many houses to rent,no need to settle for 2 nd best,its important you also find a landlord

to do any repairs that occur.

regards worgeordie

yeah we have a proper lease with all that. I mean u can't list every single thing nor do you know of all issues before u really move in. Like I said I followed up with an itemized list of issues and was more than reasonable about it. Nothing was done nor did I insist it was but it has been noted.

Yeah have done the meter check etc. It's definitely a leak in a non visible area. The guy is a mega tight ass. I mean everything inside and outside us the cheapest crap u cud get. Typical Thai mentality. Looks like he's done no maintenance on the place in 5 years and there's structural issues that will eventually cost them 10 times what some simple maintenance would. Anyway know one here seems to understand that. Why you see 3 year old vehicles blowing smoke and clapped out

[ripley]

Yes. I get it that you were under pressure once you'd fetched up at the door of the new place with a truckload of furniture. I acknowledge the inconvenience and expense of reversing your decision to move in but ask again: Which has proved more aggravating and expensive? Moving into a substandard residence run by an indifferent and dishonest owner/agent - or making other temporary arrangements? You now are not only paying excessive rent for the place, you're repairing and renovating the owner's place for him at your own expense!

A word about lease agreements: If you have to enforce them, you have to have a lawyer and probably get embroiled in an extensive court case. (TVF - correct me if I'm wrong about this.) The only real protection you have is to examine the unit thoroughly and refuse to pay 1 baht until repairs, ets have been completed. If they're not - be prepared to move on.

It isn't that I don't sympathise with your situation. Not at all. I simply hope that you (and others here) learn from it and be more proactive about preventing this from happening to you ever again. It is not unavoidable and "just the way things are in Thailand". When you look at it, in your own case, all the warning signs were there from the beginning.

Having said that, I tell you that I am not taking a "superior to thou" attitude. In fact I have also been pretty royally screwed by my condo. Although much information at the time of purchase was undisclosed/ hidden, and corruption dramatically altered the home I thought I'd purchased -I have to admit that I'm at fault as well. The place was lovely and dazzled me and so I failed in my duty of due diligence and educating myself about condominium ownership and law. I learned that there is always a price to pay for this kind of ignorance.

Edited May 16, 2016 by ripley

[Kenny202]

Yes. I get it that you were under pressure once you'd fetched up at the door of the new place with a truckload of furniture. I acknowledge the inconvenience and expense of reversing your decision to move in but ask again: Which has proved more aggravating and expensive? Moving into a substandard residence run by an indifferent and dishonest owner/agent - or making other temporary arrangements? You now are not only paying excessive rent for the place, you're repairing and renovating the owner's place for him at your own expense!

A word about lease agreements: If you have to enforce them, you have to have a lawyer and probably get embroiled in an extensive court case. (TVF - correct me if I'm wrong about this.) The only real protection you have is to examine the unit thoroughly and refuse to pay 1 baht until repairs, ets have been completed. If they're not - be prepared to move on.

It isn't that I don't sympathise with your situation. Not at all. I simply hope that you (and others here) learn from it and be more proactive about preventing this from happening to you ever again. It is not unavoidable and "just the way things are in Thailand". When you look at it, in your own case, all the warning signs were there from the beginning.

Having said that, I tell you that I am not taking a "superior to thou" attitude. In fact I have also been pretty royally screwed by my condo. Although much information at the time of purchase was undisclosed/ hidden, and corruption dramatically altered the home I thought I'd purchased -I have to admit that I'm at fault as well. The place was lovely and dazzled me and so I failed in my duty of due diligence and educating myself about condominium ownership and law. I learned that there is always a price to pay for this kind of ignorance.

But you don't know the answer to my question?

[sendintheclowns]

Kenny, to give you an answer, need to know:

- do you want to move out at the end of your lease, if would you renew, under any circumstances ?

- I'm assuming that the agent is Thai, correct?

- is lease you signed in Thai and English.

- did agent or owner sign both language copies of lease?

Did lease have a Condition Report of contents ( Inventory, damaged items), signed by both you, agent or owner?

Have you reported in writing whatever is not working properly?

All of these question lead to securing the turn of your damage deposit, at the end of the lease.

Although the Screwed By Thais Club had a large membership, my guess is that, if landlords refuse to return back your deposit, you should report to the Consumer Branch. Much better chance with that. Hope this helps.

Edited May 16, 2016 by sendintheclowns

[Kenny202]

Agent thai. Lease in Thai / Mrs translated (for what it's worth). Very basic 2 page lease agreement. The water problem is clearly a building / structural issue as opposed to damage to contents, non fixed items.

Surely the tenant isn't responsible for eg a water pipe broken in the wall or under the slab? Or are they?

[Seizetheday]

I believe in Thailand the tennant is basically responsible for everything, short of the house falling down.

[HungDonger]

I had a water pipe break soon after I moved in to a rental property. The owner immediately had it repaired at his cost and paid the previous months water bill.

[mcfish]

The joys of renting. Thank god those days are long gone !!

[bazza40]

What part of Thailand was this? I haven't heard horror stories about Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai.It seems to be a buyer's market here.Riverside is one of the better condos in CM, and the rentals are only 30 - 40% occupied. Plenty of houses for reasonable rents.

I rented from a Brit here 7 years ago now, and have never had a problem.Something goes wrong, it's fixed ASAP.

Perhaps the lesson is it's better to rent from a falang.

[bazza40]

Agent thai. Lease in Thai / Mrs translated (for what it's worth). Very basic 2 page lease agreement. The water problem is clearly a building / structural issue as opposed to damage to contents, non fixed items.

Surely the tenant isn't responsible for eg a water pipe broken in the wall or under the slab? Or are they?

You signed a lease without fully understanding its contents? It's not only Thailand you are blundering around.

Normally, broken water pipes are the landlord's responsibility, unless caused by a tenant's actions. However,Thailand is not necessarily a signatory to normality.

Edited May 16, 2016 by bazza40

[bazza40]

The joys of renting. Thank god those days are long gone !!

Oh, I see. You prefer the certainties of either not owning the land your house is built on, or a condo with mandatory 51% Thai ownership. Not to mention the speed with which you can liquidate your property asset when you want to.

[mcfish]

The joys of renting. Thank god those days are long gone !!

Oh, I see. You prefer the certainties of either not owning the land your house is built on, or a condo with mandatory 51% Thai ownership. Not to mention the speed with which you can liquidate your property asset when you want to.

A man has to go through life as his own boss and being screwed around by landlords is not part of the plan. Life is to short to be dragged around by the nose my friend , but its probably second nature to you. Living your whole adult life ripping up dead money just so you can do a runner because you dont belong anywhere is kind of pathetic .

[bazza40]

The joys of renting. Thank god those days are long gone !!

Oh, I see. You prefer the certainties of either not owning the land your house is built on, or a condo with mandatory 51% Thai ownership. Not to mention the speed with which you can liquidate your property asset when you want to.

A man has to go through life as his own boss and being screwed around by landlords is not part of the plan. Life is to short to be dragged around by the nose my friend , but its probably second nature to you. Living your whole adult life ripping up dead money just so you can do a runner because you dont belong anywhere is kind of pathetic .

Don't bruise yourself jumping to so many conclusions. I've owned houses for over 40 years in Australia, paid off the mortgage within 18 months on the first one by working in the first iron ore boom. I could buy a condo here about ten times over. My income on investments is more than adequate to finance my lifestyle choices. The reason I choose to rent, contrary to your perspective, is I'm not stupid enough to buy a property where the rule of law is slanted one way and can be changed overnight.

I am my own boss. You just think you are.

[mcfish]

The joys of renting. Thank god those days are long gone !!

Oh, I see. You prefer the certainties of either not owning the land your house is built on, or a condo with mandatory 51% Thai ownership. Not to mention the speed with which you can liquidate your property asset when you want to.

A man has to go through life as his own boss and being screwed around by landlords is not part of the plan. Life is to short to be dragged around by the nose my friend , but its probably second nature to you. Living your whole adult life ripping up dead money just so you can do a runner because you dont belong anywhere is kind of pathetic .

Don't bruise yourself jumping to so many conclusions. I've owned houses for over 40 years in Australia, paid off the mortgage within 18 months on the first one by working in the first iron ore boom. I could buy a condo here about ten times over. My income on investments is more than adequate to finance my lifestyle choices. The reason I choose to rent, contrary to your perspective, is I'm not stupid enough to buy a property where the rule of law is slanted one way and can be changed overnight.

I am my own boss. You just think you are.

BS your backtracking now. Your on your back laughing at landlords but insist you are one when your wealth is questioned zzzzzzzz..move along now

Even a rubbish house is worth 180 grand so you were earning how much a month?

dont you just hate lying and getting caught

Edited May 16, 2016 by mcfish

[Kenny202]

Agent thai. Lease in Thai / Mrs translated (for what it's worth). Very basic 2 page lease agreement. The water problem is clearly a building / structural issue as opposed to damage to contents, non fixed items.

Surely the tenant isn't responsible for eg a water pipe broken in the wall or under the slab? Or are they?

You signed a lease without fully understanding its contents? It's not only Thailand you are blundering around.

Normally, broken water pipes are the landlord's responsibility, unless caused by a tenant's actions. However,Thailand is not necessarily a signatory to normality.

I did mention my Mrs translated

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

I have lived and worked on and off here since the mid 1980s (now on a retirement visa) and it was only this year I got ripped off by the landlady of the last Condo I was renting.

She has been very difficult and has just refused to see sense and has just kept the deposit money.

I have threatened to sue her and I am now looking for a lawyer.

It is basically a "face thing" with her and I just want to see her "naar daeng" at the end of the proceedings,

[bazza40]

A man has to go through life as his own boss and being screwed around by landlords is not part of the plan. Life is to short to be dragged around by the nose my friend , but its probably second nature to you. Living your whole adult life ripping up dead money just so you can do a runner because you dont belong anywhere is kind of pathetic .

Don't bruise yourself jumping to so many conclusions. I've owned houses for over 40 years in Australia, paid off the mortgage within 18 months on the first one by working in the first iron ore boom. I could buy a condo here about ten times over. My income on investments is more than adequate to finance my lifestyle choices. The reason I choose to rent, contrary to your perspective, is I'm not stupid enough to buy a property where the rule of law is slanted one way and can be changed overnight.

I am my own boss. You just think you are.

BS your backtracking now. Your on your back laughing at landlords but insist you are one when your wealth is questioned zzzzzzzz..move along now

Even a rubbish house is worth 180 grand so you were earning how much a month?

dont you just hate lying and getting caught

So you think I'm lying.

The first iron ore boom was 1966 to 1972. The average house cost $12,000 in Melbourne then. I was earning $15,000 a year, and living in company accommodation with food provided, plus remote area tax concessions. As I said, 18 months to pay off the mortgage. The company was Goldsworthy Mining, absorbed long ago into BHP Billiton.

I regard liquidity and mobility as a major asset in these uncertain times. Presumably you'll be on Thai Visa again bewailing your fate if the ownership rules change. Or maybe because you can't sell your property at anything near what you paid for it.

Don't you just hate a demonstration on a public forum you are wrong?

Edited May 16, 2016 by bazza40

[mcfish]

A man has to go through life as his own boss and being screwed around by landlords is not part of the plan. Life is to short to be dragged around by the nose my friend , but its probably second nature to you. Living your whole adult life ripping up dead money just so you can do a runner because you dont belong anywhere is kind of pathetic .

Don't bruise yourself jumping to so many conclusions. I've owned houses for over 40 years in Australia, paid off the mortgage within 18 months on the first one by working in the first iron ore boom. I could buy a condo here about ten times over. My income on investments is more than adequate to finance my lifestyle choices. The reason I choose to rent, contrary to your perspective, is I'm not stupid enough to buy a property where the rule of law is slanted one way and can be changed overnight.

I am my own boss. You just think you are.

BS your backtracking now. Your on your back laughing at landlords but insist you are one when your wealth is questioned zzzzzzzz..move along now

Even a rubbish house is worth 180 grand so you were earning how much a month?

dont you just hate lying and getting caught

So you think I'm lying.

The first iron ore boom was 1966 to 1972. The average house cost $12,000 in Melbourne then. I was earning $15,000 a year, and living in company accommodation with food provided, plus remote area tax concessions. As I said, 18 months to pay off the mortgage. The company was Goldsworthy Mining, absorbed long ago into BHP Billiton.

I regard liquidity and mobility as a major asset in these uncertain times. Presumably you'll be on Thai Visa again bewailing your fate if the ownership rules change. Or maybe because you can't sell your property at anything near what you paid for it.

Don't you just hate a demonstration on a public forum you are wrong?

You bought a house in 1966? how the f.. is that even relevant? and why do I need to drag the info out of you.

Great job in hijacking a 2016 thread with your 1966 purchase ...I see your in Chang mai which just happens to be the cheapest Farang rental Ghetto in Thailand, I guess that iron ore gig didnt last to long eh LOL

[HungDonger]

As Bazza40 bought his house in Melbourne for $12,000 and the Median house price is currently $712,000 I reckon he did O.K. I wonder if growth has been as strong in Chiang Mai ?

[bazza40]

So you think I'm lying.

The first iron ore boom was 1966 to 1972. The average house cost $12,000 in Melbourne then. I was earning $15,000 a year, and living in company accommodation with food provided, plus remote area tax concessions. As I said, 18 months to pay off the mortgage. The company was Goldsworthy Mining, absorbed long ago into BHP Billiton.

I regard liquidity and mobility as a major asset in these uncertain times. Presumably you'll be on Thai Visa again bewailing your fate if the ownership rules change. Or maybe because you can't sell your property at anything near what you paid for it.

Don't you just hate a demonstration on a public forum you are wrong?

You bought a house in 1966? how the f.. is that even relevant? and why do I need to drag the info out of you.

Great job in hijacking a 2016 thread with your 1966 purchase ...I see your in Chang mai which just happens to be the cheapest Farang rental Ghetto in Thailand, I guess that iron ore gig didnt last to long eh LOL

When did I say the house was bought in 1966? And how do you reach the conclusion that a house bought in 1970 and paid for by 1972 did not enable me to pyramid my wealth from then on?

I worked continuously from 1960 until 2008, when I retired. In a number of industries apart from iron ore, all of which paid me well.

If you choose to think of Chiang Mai as a farang rental ghetto, you are entitled to your opinion,however deluded it might be. I like it here.

Sorry, but I don't feel the need to to provide a personal balance sheet just to satisfy your idle curiosity. I've already given you far more information than you've provided about your so-called property wealth.

[ripley]

Do you think we're getting a wee bit off topic?

[Kenny202]

Do you think we're getting a wee bit off topic?

All par for the course. Only a matter of time before every single post turns into a pssing contest

[bazza40]

Do you think we're getting a wee bit off topic?

All par for the course. Only a matter of time before every single post turns into a pssing contest

Can't disagree with you there. Guilty your honour.

Edited May 17, 2016 by bazza40

[blackcab]

Kenny - don't pay the last 2 months rent. Make lots of promises, and provide lots of excuses. Rather like your landlord did.

The owners will not be out of pocket. That is what your deposit is for.

And next time before you move, do a bit more homework.

In the meantime run a temporary bypass for the water with some cheap blue pipe. Remove it at the end of your tenancy. You are probably losing 1,000 baht a month in wasted water. It doesn't really matter what it looks like - you can just lay the pipe on the ground.

[meatboy]

Agent thai. Lease in Thai / Mrs translated (for what it's worth). Very basic 2 page lease agreement. The water problem is clearly a building / structural issue as opposed to damage to contents, non fixed items.

Surely the tenant isn't responsible for eg a water pipe broken in the wall or under the slab? Or are they?

dear kenny when are your nightmare's goner end.

hope your smokeing and bacon curing goes along more smoothly.

do yourself a favour get out when the time's right.