Koh Tao Convicts 'Still Hopeful' as Appeal Looms

[Khun Han]

Guys...the damn phone is not of any interest!

The court mainly focused on the matching DNA!

So...please...could all you of the guilty- brigade also do that, please?!

The DNA, that was taken whenever, wherever, by whoever and then stored in the fridge of the headhoncho, samples got destroyed and were not verifiable!

That DNA!

You mean the DNA Evidence that the Defense Team couldn't get thrown out of court with there handful of experts?

The point you are missing here is that DNA Evidence is not enough for a conviction. You need supporting Evidence to get that. This is where having David Millers Cell Phone becomes an important issue as this is Supporting Evidence. As is been seen on the beach that night and near the time of these murder, and also near the murder scene. As is having no alibi. Cigarette Butts. And so on.

The judges made it quite clear that they convicted on the (discredited) DNA evidence.

By the way, are you Disco Dan's twin brother? Posting with multiple accounts is against the forum rules.

[fab99]

Anyone who says the trial was fair and that the evidence presented would have been enough to convict the B2 in most countries is just delusional (or dishonest) in my opinion.

I am amazed by how fast the usual posters strongly convinced of the B2's guilt are to react to any new post about the case, flooding them with their distorted reality...

Most people are convinced that the B2 are probably not guilty of rape and even less of murder, and we all have seen how the prosecution case was flawed, there have been so many posts about it, but reading the new posts from a few here just disgusts me, they are just plain dishonest in the way they present information.

For the death penalty to be given, the guilt MUST be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and doubts there are, for sure.

The usual posters are actually winning sadly, because most of us are just tired of answering and trying to give facts again and again to counter their deliberate inaccuracies.

But in the end, when you consider this case and others similar what do you really expect in a country where people with power can kill in total impunity, without spending a single day in prison, just a few days in a temple, a few million to the victim's family if their involvment is too obvious and voila, all is forgiven.

Kirsty Jones comes to mind but almost daily examples in the news concerning thai people and not foreigners, as the Redbull heir (who killed a cop...), Chalerm's son (again, killed a cop with numerous witnesses and is now... a cop), the 16 year old driver who killed 9 persons, the speeding intoxicated Benz drivers killing 2 students in their car... it is just overwhelming and just shows that there is not much hope for the B2.

And I am quite sad to say that I don't think it's going to change soon... at least the image of Thailand is starting to shift and people start to realize there is a difference between the brochures and the sad reality, it is true everywhere, but the gap is so much wider in Thailand.

[DiscoDan]

I wonder what ever happened to this witness ?

"U Aung Myo Thant said one of the eyewitnesses saw the men who accompanied the British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller from the hotel shortly before the murder. Another witness said he had seen the rape by the light of his motorbike."

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/13349-koh-tao-defence-team-finds-three-key-witnesses.html

or all these witnesses ?

"We have quite a few witnesses now, but the number may rise to over 100 or 200 in the next few days," Htoo Chit, a member of the investigation team, said."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Myanmar-embassy-seeking-defence-witnesses-for-Koh--30250281.html

Or the witnesses that claimed Chris Ware and Sean Mcanna were seen entering the bar at 4 am

“Myanmar witnesses testify that they (Mr Ware and Mr McAnna) are related to the case. When they entered into the bar, they had injuries. Bloods stains were on their guitar. And the time was around 4 o’clock in the early morning,” said U Aung Myo Thant.

http://archive-3.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/16046-koh-tao-murder-defence-team-wants-to-quiz-two-british-witnesses/16046-koh-tao-murder-defence-team-wants-to-quiz-two-british-witnesses

How many took the stand ? at a guess a will go with zero.

Oh and don't forget the guy in Burma who is going to go to interpol as he also claims he witnessed the murder

A masked vigilante yesterday stood up in a swell of protesters and said he has evidence that can prove the innocence of two Myanmar men sentenced to death in Thailand.

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/18341-masked-man-at-koh-tao-rally-demands-meet-with-interpol.html

[GOLDBUGGY]

Guys...the damn phone is not of any interest!

The court mainly focused on the matching DNA!

So...please...could all you of the guilty- brigade also do that, please?!

The DNA, that was taken whenever, wherever, by whoever and then stored in the fridge of the headhoncho, samples got destroyed and were not verifiable!

That DNA!

You mean the DNA Evidence that the Defense Team couldn't get thrown out of court with there handful of experts?

The point you are missing here is that DNA Evidence is not enough for a conviction. You need supporting Evidence to get that. This is where having David Millers Cell Phone becomes an important issue as this is Supporting Evidence. As is been seen on the beach that night and near the time of these murder, and also near the murder scene. As is having no alibi. Cigarette Butts. And so on.

The judges made it quite clear that they convicted on the (discredited) DNA evidence.

By the way, are you Disco Dan's twin brother? Posting with multiple accounts is against the forum rules.

Yes I know as I already said this in a earlier post, if you took the time to read it.

As to the Mobile Phones, yes, there was a mix up in reporting this news. The Social Media really jumped on that to. But all it was in fact was a mix up, and which may have been reported wrongly by the reporter. Or the Police making this statement got confused when he was speaking. You have court testimony already which states this Black Phone of David Miller was all smashed up by the accused friends and thrown into the jungle area, so how can it look like Hannah's Phone in perfect condition and in that picture?

But a mix up or blunder doesn't change the facts, so here are the facts. The Police knew very early into their investigation that David Millers Mobile Phone was missing. But they did not make this Public Knowledge for a very good reason. They felt the killer(s) had taken the phone and they wanted to catch them red handed with it to help prove they were the killer(s). They did not want to make this public knowledge until the arrests (a month later) as they feared if the killer(s) knew they had this phone they would try to get rid of it. Which as the story unfolded proved the police were right on both accounts.

So after the arrest of the accused they asked them what they did with David Miller's Mobile Phone. Surely they would not ask such a question if they did not know it was missing in the first place and that the accused took it. So when they asked the accused told them which led them to there Fiends Accommodations, and who in turn told them what he did with it and where he threw it. This was how they found of David Millers Mobile Phone. This has all been mentioned already in Court and in the Media and here. .

[Khun Han]

^Aside from the litany of pathetic excuses on behalf of the RTP re: the found phone fiasco, you know all this about secret police procedures how, exactly? I'm calling you out as a Walter Mitty character.

[Khun Han]

Anyone who says the trial was fair and that the evidence presented would have been enough to convict the B2 in most countries is just delusional (or dishonest) in my opinion.

I am amazed by how fast the usual posters strongly convinced of the B2's guilt are to react to any new post about the case, flooding them with their distorted reality...

Most people are convinced that the B2 are probably not guilty of rape and even less of murder, and we all have seen how the prosecution case was flawed, there have been so many posts about it, but reading the new posts from a few here just disgusts me, they are just plain dishonest in the way they present information.

For the death penalty to be given, the guilt MUST be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and doubts there are, for sure.

The usual posters are actually winning sadly, because most of us are just tired of answering and trying to give facts again and again to counter their deliberate inaccuracies.

But in the end, when you consider this case and others similar what do you really expect in a country where people with power can kill in total impunity, without spending a single day in prison, just a few days in a temple, a few million to the victim's family if their involvment is too obvious and voila, all is forgiven.

Kirsty Jones comes to mind but almost daily examples in the news concerning thai people and not foreigners, as the Redbull heir (who killed a cop...), Chalerm's son (again, killed a cop with numerous witnesses and is now... a cop), the 16 year old driver who killed 9 persons, the speeding intoxicated Benz drivers killing 2 students in their car... it is just overwhelming and just shows that there is not much hope for the B2.

And I am quite sad to say that I don't think it's going to change soon... at least the image of Thailand is starting to shift and people start to realize there is a difference between the brochures and the sad reality, it is true everywhere, but the gap is so much wider in Thailand.

"most of us are just tired of answering and trying to give facts again and again to counter their deliberate inaccuracies."

That's the idea, to wear you down with their constant yapping of misinformation, repeated ad-nauseam. They will eventually re-write the history of this debacle in this way. And they have the big guns to come in to bully and harrangue if the resistance to misinformation is strong.

[Wilsonandson]

Years go by, but these murders were so horrific will our minds ever heal?

Time is a healer they say. But everytime I read or am reminded of this tragic event, it brings sadness to me.

I know you all feel the same Thai or foreigner. R.I.P Hannah. R.I.P David. As for who did it? They know who they are. They live with this through this life into eternal hell.

No death penalty. Life is suffering.

[Khun Han]

He's 'liking' his own posts. He'll be chatting with himself soon enough .

[DiscoDan]

Here is a video the truthers won't want you to see British authorities present at the autopsy of Hannah & David.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11101630/British-backpacker-was-drowned-and-beaten-to-death.html

[Khun Han]

Years go by, but these murders were so horrific will our minds ever heal?

Time is a healer they say. But everytime I read or am reminded of this tragic event, it brings sadness to me.

I know you all feel the same Thai or foreigner. R.I.P Hannah. R.I.P David. As for who did it? They know who they are. They live with this through this life into eternal hell.

No death penalty. Life is suffering.

Noble thoughts. But I fear you don't understand the mentality of the real murderers/rapists. They are repeat offenders, who wear their crimes as a badge of honour which gains fear and respect from their lackeys and peers.

[Wilsonandson]

Years go by, but these murders were so horrific will our minds ever heal?

Time is a healer they say. But everytime I read or am reminded of this tragic event, it brings sadness to me.

I know you all feel the same Thai or foreigner. R.I.P Hannah. R.I.P David. As for who did it? They know who they are. They live with this through this life into eternal hell.

No death penalty. Life is suffering.

Noble thoughts. But I fear you don't understand the mentality of the real murderers/rapists. They are repeat offenders, who wear their crimes as a badge of honour which gains fear and respect from their lackeys and peers.

In your opinion. Does anyone understand the minds of people who commit murders and rape? Does anyone want to understand? As for mafia, what badge do you get for ruining tourism? Surely no criminal organisation would honour this cowardly act of violence.

[berybert]

I will make just one post on this thread as I have no wish to interact with those who cover for murderers.

I would just like to wish the guys luck on their appeal. Tho they will need a lot more than luck.

There were many holes in the prosecutions case, every hole had a million baht stuffed into it to make it disappear.

If there is a God, or if Buddha is real then soon those in jail will be free. Several who have failed in the cover up will be dead.

You know who you are.

[IslandLover]

DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 16:49, said:

Here is a video the truthers won't want you to see British authorities present at the autopsy of Hannah & David.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11101630/British-backpacker-was-drowned-and-beaten-to-death.html

I suppose you know they were British Embassy officials/spokespeople and not forensic experts or police? It is quite normal for Embassy officials to be present in a situation like this to talk to the press. They would not have been present at the actual autopsy though.

[DiscoDan]

DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 16:49, said:

Here is a video the truthers won't want you to see British authorities present at the autopsy of Hannah & David.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11101630/British-backpacker-was-drowned-and-beaten-to-death.html

I suppose you know they were British Embassy officials/spokespeople and not forensic experts or police? It is quite normal for Embassy officials to be present in a situation like this to talk to the press. They would not have been present at the actual autopsy though.

So you think the British government sent spokespeople down there to say no comment ? come on you are going to have to do better than that,

[IslandLover]

DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 18:40, said:

IslandLover, on 18 May 2016 - 18:21, said:

DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 16:49, said:DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 16:49, said:

Here is a video the truthers won't want you to see British authorities present at the autopsy of Hannah & David.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11101630/British-backpacker-was-drowned-and-beaten-to-death.html

I suppose you know they were British Embassy officials/spokespeople and not forensic experts or police? It is quite normal for Embassy officials to be present in a situation like this to talk to the press. They would not have been present at the actual autopsy though.

So you think the British government sent spokespeople down there to say no comment ? come on you are going to have to do better than that,

Diplomats frequently say "no comment". Nothing unusual about that.

[stephenterry]

snip

But the Show Stopper here has been, and I suppose always will be, the DNA Evidence. Call it what you like but as long as the Defense cannot get this thrown out as Evidence, then the accused are riding in a sinking ship, in my honest opinion. There only option back then was to retest this, whether it was replicated or not, and had there expert standing by as a observer. The outcome couldn't have been worst then what they ended up with.

But then if they knew they were guilty, and knew this would match again, best not to do anything, which is what they did. At least now they have a chance to reduce this sentence to life, but if it was a slam dunk, then I am not so sure they could do this then. All I know was that retesting none of this DNA did not help there case one bit.

Because there were no ORIGINAL samples to test, that is, if any existed in the first place. How can anyone retest samples that don't exist, have been lost - or all used up (as a police witness stated). As for losing evidence, the blond hair clutched in Hannah's hand was 'lost' by the RTP custodians as were her clothes. How very convenient. I would reason they were lost because the DNA on them would have pointed to other suspects that were not the B2. About time you recognised that. That's the only logical conclusion.

In fact, that's a bigger missing elephant than any assertion about a phone. Oh yes, the DNA on the murder weapon hoe did not match the B2. But that was ignored by the court. How convenient, huh?

Edited May 19, 2016 by stephenterry

[DM07]

Let's summarize: what does the "guilty"- brigade have?

The DNA- "evidence", which was named by the court as the No.1 cause for a conviction and that would have been slapped in the RTP's face, like a wet dead fish, in any other country in this Universe!

A phone of doubtful origin....

...aaaaaaand...nothing!

The real tragedy here is: even IF the B2 are guilty...no one will ever be free of doubt about that, thanks to the abysmal handling by the RTP and the courts!

...except for those, who hang on every word of the RTP...

Sad, really!

[DiscoDan]

DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 18:40, said:

IslandLover, on 18 May 2016 - 18:21, said:

DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 16:49, said:DiscoDan, on 18 May 2016 - 16:49, said:

Here is a video the truthers won't want you to see British authorities present at the autopsy of Hannah & David.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11101630/British-backpacker-was-drowned-and-beaten-to-death.html

I suppose you know they were British Embassy officials/spokespeople and not forensic experts or police? It is quite normal for Embassy officials to be present in a situation like this to talk to the press. They would not have been present at the actual autopsy though.

So you think the British government sent spokespeople down there to say no comment ? come on you are going to have to do better than that,

Diplomats frequently say "no comment". Nothing unusual about that.

They are diplomats now ? so not spokespeople anymore? you story keeps changing a bit like the convicts alibis

[DiscoDan]

Let's summarize: what does the "guilty"- brigade have?

The DNA- "evidence", which was named by the court as the No.1 cause for a conviction and that would have been slapped in the RTP's face, like a wet dead fish, in any other country in this Universe!

A phone of doubtful origin....

...aaaaaaand...nothing!

The real tragedy here is: even IF the B2 are guilty...no one will ever be free of doubt about that, thanks to the abysmal handling by the RTP and the courts!

...except for those, who hang on every word of the RTP...

Sad, really!

Dna that was found in victim is what they were convicted thats the same DNA the defense did a u turn on retesting (cue excuses why they did u turn) they only person who claims testing did not meet standards is Super Jane, for people who do not know this is the person who the defense chose not to listen to or let her take the stand they same person who asked for documents relating to case while in Australia and received nothing,

The Dna results being no good are only based on her assumptions as she has not seen any evidence (cue more excuses)

When the defense asked the court at the start of the trial to retest the dna samples they could of also asked for the paperwork concerning dna match but they didn't only choosing to retest items that were not even part of the court case.

The truther brigade harped on about how it was impossible to get dna tests in under 24 hours we now know this is a lie and that labs have kits that can do tests in under 2 hours, so it just goes to show how much these experts really know.

Edited May 19, 2016 by DiscoDan

[tingtongfarang]

Let's summarize: what does the "guilty"- brigade have?

The DNA- "evidence", which was named by the court as the No.1 cause for a conviction and that would have been slapped in the RTP's face, like a wet dead fish, in any other country in this Universe!

A phone of doubtful origin....

...aaaaaaand...nothing!

The real tragedy here is: even IF the B2 are guilty...no one will ever be free of doubt about that, thanks to the abysmal handling by the RTP and the courts!

...except for those, who hang on every word of the RTP...

Sad, really!

Dna that was found in victim is what they were convicted thats the same DNA the defense did a u turn on retesting (cue excuses why they did u turn) they only person who claims testing did not meet standards is Super Jane, for people who do not know this is the person who the defense chose not to listen to or let her take the stand they same person who asked for documents relating to case while in Australia and received nothing,

The Dna results being no good are only based on her assumptions as she has not seen any evidence (cue more excuses)

When the defense asked the court at the start of the trial to retest the dna samples they could of also asked for the paperwork concerning dna match but they didn't only choosing to retest items that were not even part of the court case.

The truther brigade harped on about how it was impossible to get dna tests in under 24 hours we now know this is a lie and that labs have kits that can do tests in under 2 hours, so it just goes to show how much these experts really know.

Serious question, Which DNA was available to retest?

I read that the original samples were lost or all used up after being stored in someones fridge at home.

[DM07]

Let's summarize: what does the "guilty"- brigade have?

The DNA- "evidence", which was named by the court as the No.1 cause for a conviction and that would have been slapped in the RTP's face, like a wet dead fish, in any other country in this Universe!

A phone of doubtful origin....

...aaaaaaand...nothing!

The real tragedy here is: even IF the B2 are guilty...no one will ever be free of doubt about that, thanks to the abysmal handling by the RTP and the courts!

...except for those, who hang on every word of the RTP...

Sad, really!

Dna that was found in victim is what they were convicted thats the same DNA the defense did a u turn on retesting (cue excuses why they did u turn) they only person who claims testing did not meet standards is Super Jane, for people who do not know this is the person who the defense chose not to listen to or let her take the stand they same person who asked for documents relating to case while in Australia and received nothing,

The Dna results being no good are only based on her assumptions as she has not seen any evidence (cue more excuses)

When the defense asked the court at the start of the trial to retest the dna samples they could of also asked for the paperwork concerning dna match but they didn't only choosing to retest items that were not even part of the court case.

The truther brigade harped on about how it was impossible to get dna tests in under 24 hours we now know this is a lie and that labs have kits that can do tests in under 2 hours, so it just goes to show how much these experts really know.

You are so delusional, it almost hurts!

Even I (and I work in Tourism, nowhere near any police or DNA), know what a "chain of custody" is and what it means if that is broken.

Retesting and verifying couldn't be done, because the DNA was "used up" or "lost", depending on what source you chose to believe.

THAT is what makes the DNA- "evidence" questionable at least!

Paperwork means d!ck, because anyone can write anything onto a test- tube and some pieces of paper!

As long as the ORIGINAL DNA is not verifiable, there basically is no evidence!

Is that so hard to grasp?

[partington]

Let's summarize: what does the "guilty"- brigade have?

The DNA- "evidence", which was named by the court as the No.1 cause for a conviction and that would have been slapped in the RTP's face, like a wet dead fish, in any other country in this Universe!

A phone of doubtful origin....

...aaaaaaand...nothing!

The real tragedy here is: even IF the B2 are guilty...no one will ever be free of doubt about that, thanks to the abysmal handling by the RTP and the courts!

...except for those, who hang on every word of the RTP...

Sad, really!

Dna that was found in victim is what they were convicted thats the same DNA the defense did a u turn on retesting (cue excuses why they did u turn) they only person who claims testing did not meet standards is Super Jane, for people who do not know this is the person who the defense chose not to listen to or let her take the stand they same person who asked for documents relating to case while in Australia and received nothing,

The Dna results being no good are only based on her assumptions as she has not seen any evidence (cue more excuses)

When the defense asked the court at the start of the trial to retest the dna samples they could of also asked for the paperwork concerning dna match but they didn't only choosing to retest items that were not even part of the court case.

The truther brigade harped on about how it was impossible to get dna tests in under 24 hours we now know this is a lie and that labs have kits that can do tests in under 2 hours, so it just goes to show how much these experts really know.

You are so delusional, it almost hurts!

Even I (and I work in Tourism, nowhere near any police or DNA), know what a "chain of custody" is and what it means if that is broken.

Retesting and verifying couldn't be done, because the DNA was "used up" or "lost", depending on what source you chose to believe.

THAT is what makes the DNA- "evidence" questionable at least!

Paperwork means d!ck, because anyone can write anything onto a test- tube and some pieces of paper!

As long as the ORIGINAL DNA is not verifiable, there basically is no evidence!

Is that so hard to grasp?

The so called 2-hour DNA kits are experimental, not available to Thai labs, and have not been validated as acceptable evidence in any jurisdiction yet, and in any case DNA samples from a rape victim must be treated overnight to reduce the signal from the vast amount of contaminating DNA, which is the victim's, so this 2-hour nonsense red herring can be discounted.

However the original DNA data from the initial profiling is real permanent evidence and can be examined by all concerned, indefinitely, and this is what is done in western courts to validate that DNA evidence is, in fact, reliable.

All DNA sequences are read on a machine that collects real time readings from the DNA sequence passing in front of an optical reader which detects fluorescent dye emissions after laser light stimulation. This is the original data that is collected as a digital file on a computer in real time and can be kept indefinitely.

This data can be examined, and is almost impossible to fake. It is permanent and can be reproduced indefinitely, like a digital movie. It is a graph of data that looks a bit like an electrocardiogram, together with random noise , blips and so on that are not easy to simulate. Any expert looking at THE ORIGINAL FILE would be able to tell immediately several things that are almost impossible to simulate using artificial means:

1.Is it a really data collected over time from a mixture of DNAs from two or more people (including the victim)

2. What proportion of the DNA comes from each contributor to the mix

3. What is the maximum amount of reliable DNA fingerprinting data that can be read from each contributor (in a mixture, especially when the victims's DNA is there as well, 100% data is not easy to obtain).

Without going into details, this original trace data from the machine used in the DNA lab to produce the profile, together with a complete report of how the sample was treated, would be enough for an expert to tell if the data existed at all, if it is really from a DNA mix from a victim, and how reliable the profiling information presented was.

Faking this (for example by running a false sample made from DNA gathered from the suspects days after arrest) would be horrendously difficult, especially given the already impossibly short time after collection that this profiling data was apparently available.

Examination of a full report of the analysis would tell an expert everything they needed to know. As far as I can tell from accounts of the court case the "DNA report" was in fact a single sheet of paper with crossings out in pen on it, and about as far from an evidentiary western standard DNA profiling report as it was possible to get. In fact the original DNA data may well not have existed at all, because no lab reports were made available to the defence, merely a summary, which can be simply typed at will to say anything.

The fact that the defence did not insist on the original lab data being shown or call their defence expert to at least inform the court of what needed to be shown for the DNA evidence to be acceptable to international standard, and instead spent their time calling some blogger who was not an expert in anything to talk about gait analysis, Burmese working conditions and other BS makes me think the defence team were incompetent, and the appeal is a waste of effort if the same people are involved.

[stephenterry]

snip

The so called 2-hour DNA kits are experimental, not available to Thai labs, and have not been validated as acceptable evidence in any jurisdiction yet, and in any case DNA samples from a rape victim must be treated overnight to reduce the signal from the vast amount of contaminating DNA, which is the victim's, so this 2-hour nonsense red herring can be discounted.

However the original DNA data from the initial profiling is real permanent evidence and can be examined by all concerned, indefinitely, and this is what is done in western courts to validate that DNA evidence is, in fact, reliable.

All DNA sequences are read on a machine that collects real time readings from the DNA sequence passing in front of an optical reader which detects fluorescent dye emissions after laser light stimulation. This is the original data that is collected as a digital file on a computer in real time and can be kept indefinitely.

This data can be examined, and is almost impossible to fake. It is permanent and can be reproduced indefinitely, like a digital movie. It is a graph of data that looks a bit like an electrocardiogram, together with random noise , blips and so on that are not easy to simulate. Any expert looking at THE ORIGINAL FILE would be able to tell immediately several things that are almost impossible to simulate using artificial means:

1.Is it a really data collected over time from a mixture of DNAs from two or more people (including the victim)

2. What proportion of the DNA comes from each contributor to the mix

3. What is the maximum amount of reliable DNA fingerprinting data that can be read from each contributor (in a mixture, especially when the victims's DNA is there as well, 100% data is not easy to obtain).

Without going into details, this original trace data from the machine used in the DNA lab to produce the profile, together with a complete report of how the sample was treated, would be enough for an expert to tell if the data existed at all, if it is really from a DNA mix from a victim, and how reliable the profiling information presented was.

Faking this (for example by running a false sample made from DNA gathered from the suspects days after arrest) would be horrendously difficult, especially given the already impossibly short time after collection that this profiling data was apparently available.

Examination of a full report of the analysis would tell an expert everything they needed to know. As far as I can tell from accounts of the court case the "DNA report" was in fact a single sheet of paper with crossings out in pen on it, and about as far from an evidentiary western standard DNA profiling report as it was possible to get. In fact the original DNA data may well not have existed at all, because no lab reports were made available to the defence, merely a summary, which can be simply typed at will to say anything.

The fact that the defence did not insist on the original lab data being shown or call their defence expert to at least inform the court of what needed to be shown for the DNA evidence to be acceptable to international standard, and instead spent their time calling some blogger who was not an expert in anything to talk about gait analysis, Burmese working conditions and other BS makes me think the defence team were incompetent, and the appeal is a waste of effort if the same people are involved.

It's my gut reaction that the defence were out of their depth in this court case (as was the prosecution). There is also the possibility that the defence were warned not to rock the boat, or seek to harm the collective face of the RTP (for the sake of Thailand's image). That is conjecture, but not to be ruled out.

From what I have assimilated since, the appeal will be far more professional and robust in challenging the prosecution's DNA assertions. International involvement, included. One step removed from the Samui court, there is less of a 'personal' involvement as the appeal will be heard behind closed doors. No public face to lose.

[DiscoDan]

Let's summarize: what does the "guilty"- brigade have?

The DNA- "evidence", which was named by the court as the No.1 cause for a conviction and that would have been slapped in the RTP's face, like a wet dead fish, in any other country in this Universe!

A phone of doubtful origin....

...aaaaaaand...nothing!

The real tragedy here is: even IF the B2 are guilty...no one will ever be free of doubt about that, thanks to the abysmal handling by the RTP and the courts!

...except for those, who hang on every word of the RTP...

Sad, really!

Dna that was found in victim is what they were convicted thats the same DNA the defense did a u turn on retesting (cue excuses why they did u turn) they only person who claims testing did not meet standards is Super Jane, for people who do not know this is the person who the defense chose not to listen to or let her take the stand they same person who asked for documents relating to case while in Australia and received nothing,

The Dna results being no good are only based on her assumptions as she has not seen any evidence (cue more excuses)

When the defense asked the court at the start of the trial to retest the dna samples they could of also asked for the paperwork concerning dna match but they didn't only choosing to retest items that were not even part of the court case.

The truther brigade harped on about how it was impossible to get dna tests in under 24 hours we now know this is a lie and that labs have kits that can do tests in under 2 hours, so it just goes to show how much these experts really know.

You are so delusional, it almost hurts!

Even I (and I work in Tourism, nowhere near any police or DNA), know what a "chain of custody" is and what it means if that is broken.

Retesting and verifying couldn't be done, because the DNA was "used up" or "lost", depending on what source you chose to believe.

THAT is what makes the DNA- "evidence" questionable at least!

Paperwork means d!ck, because anyone can write anything onto a test- tube and some pieces of paper!

As long as the ORIGINAL DNA is not verifiable, there basically is no evidence!

Is that so hard to grasp?

https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110/posts/10153261210105677?pnref=story

Read Robert Holmes comments and you will see it is you who is delusional.

He was there were you ?

[DiscoDan]

Let's summarize: what does the "guilty"- brigade have?

The DNA- "evidence", which was named by the court as the No.1 cause for a conviction and that would have been slapped in the RTP's face, like a wet dead fish, in any other country in this Universe!

A phone of doubtful origin....

...aaaaaaand...nothing!

The real tragedy here is: even IF the B2 are guilty...no one will ever be free of doubt about that, thanks to the abysmal handling by the RTP and the courts!

...except for those, who hang on every word of the RTP...

Sad, really!

Dna that was found in victim is what they were convicted thats the same DNA the defense did a u turn on retesting (cue excuses why they did u turn) they only person who claims testing did not meet standards is Super Jane, for people who do not know this is the person who the defense chose not to listen to or let her take the stand they same person who asked for documents relating to case while in Australia and received nothing,

The Dna results being no good are only based on her assumptions as she has not seen any evidence (cue more excuses)

When the defense asked the court at the start of the trial to retest the dna samples they could of also asked for the paperwork concerning dna match but they didn't only choosing to retest items that were not even part of the court case.

The truther brigade harped on about how it was impossible to get dna tests in under 24 hours we now know this is a lie and that labs have kits that can do tests in under 2 hours, so it just goes to show how much these experts really know.

You are so delusional, it almost hurts!

Even I (and I work in Tourism, nowhere near any police or DNA), know what a "chain of custody" is and what it means if that is broken.

Retesting and verifying couldn't be done, because the DNA was "used up" or "lost", depending on what source you chose to believe.

THAT is what makes the DNA- "evidence" questionable at least!

Paperwork means d!ck, because anyone can write anything onto a test- tube and some pieces of paper!

As long as the ORIGINAL DNA is not verifiable, there basically is no evidence!

Is that so hard to grasp?

The so called 2-hour DNA kits are experimental, not available to Thai labs, and have not been validated as acceptable evidence in any jurisdiction yet, and in any case DNA samples from a rape victim must be treated overnight to reduce the signal from the vast amount of contaminating DNA, which is the victim's, so this 2-hour nonsense red herring can be discounted.

However the original DNA data from the initial profiling is real permanent evidence and can be examined by all concerned, indefinitely, and this is what is done in western courts to validate that DNA evidence is, in fact, reliable.

All DNA sequences are read on a machine that collects real time readings from the DNA sequence passing in front of an optical reader which detects fluorescent dye emissions after laser light stimulation. This is the original data that is collected as a digital file on a computer in real time and can be kept indefinitely.

This data can be examined, and is almost impossible to fake. It is permanent and can be reproduced indefinitely, like a digital movie. It is a graph of data that looks a bit like an electrocardiogram, together with random noise , blips and so on that are not easy to simulate. Any expert looking at THE ORIGINAL FILE would be able to tell immediately several things that are almost impossible to simulate using artificial means:

1.Is it a really data collected over time from a mixture of DNAs from two or more people (including the victim)

2. What proportion of the DNA comes from each contributor to the mix

3. What is the maximum amount of reliable DNA fingerprinting data that can be read from each contributor (in a mixture, especially when the victims's DNA is there as well, 100% data is not easy to obtain).

Without going into details, this original trace data from the machine used in the DNA lab to produce the profile, together with a complete report of how the sample was treated, would be enough for an expert to tell if the data existed at all, if it is really from a DNA mix from a victim, and how reliable the profiling information presented was.

Faking this (for example by running a false sample made from DNA gathered from the suspects days after arrest) would be horrendously difficult, especially given the already impossibly short time after collection that this profiling data was apparently available.

Examination of a full report of the analysis would tell an expert everything they needed to know. As far as I can tell from accounts of the court case the "DNA report" was in fact a single sheet of paper with crossings out in pen on it, and about as far from an evidentiary western standard DNA profiling report as it was possible to get. In fact the original DNA data may well not have existed at all, because no lab reports were made available to the defence, merely a summary, which can be simply typed at will to say anything.

The fact that the defence did not insist on the original lab data being shown or call their defence expert to at least inform the court of what needed to be shown for the DNA evidence to be acceptable to international standard, and instead spent their time calling some blogger who was not an expert in anything to talk about gait analysis, Burmese working conditions and other BS makes me think the defence team were incompetent, and the appeal is a waste of effort if the same people are involved.

sorry need some links to back up your claims kits are experimental

[sambum]

snip

But the Show Stopper here has been, and I suppose always will be, the DNA Evidence. Call it what you like but as long as the Defense cannot get this thrown out as Evidence, then the accused are riding in a sinking ship, in my honest opinion. There only option back then was to retest this, whether it was replicated or not, and had there expert standing by as a observer. The outcome couldn't have been worst then what they ended up with.

But then if they knew they were guilty, and knew this would match again, best not to do anything, which is what they did. At least now they have a chance to reduce this sentence to life, but if it was a slam dunk, then I am not so sure they could do this then. All I know was that retesting none of this DNA did not help there case one bit.

Because there were no ORIGINAL samples to test, that is, if any existed in the first place. How can anyone retest samples that don't exist, have been lost - or all used up (as a police witness stated). As for losing evidence, the blond hair clutched in Hannah's hand was 'lost' by the RTP custodians as were her clothes. How very convenient. I would reason they were lost because the DNA on them would have pointed to other suspects that were not the B2. About time you recognised that. That's the only logical conclusion.

In fact, that's a bigger missing elephant than any assertion about a phone. Oh yes, the DNA on the murder weapon hoe did not match the B2. But that was ignored by the court. How convenient, huh?

The most astounding part of this case (in my eyes) is the fact that Hannah's clothes were "lost". I can understand a hair being lost,(sort of!) but a complete set of clothing belonging to a rape/ murder victim? And the fact that the defence did not make more of this glaring "error" also astounds me.

Edited May 19, 2016 by sambum

[Khun Han]

^It's glaringly obvious that Hannah's clothes had the 'wrong' dna on them.

[Khun Han]

Dan, you've gone from being disingenuous about the dna to making an outright fool of yourself. Time for you to be subbed.

[sambum]

I suppose you know they were British Embassy officials/spokespeople and not forensic experts or police? It is quite normal for Embassy officials to be present in a situation like this to talk to the press. They would not have been present at the actual autopsy though.

So you think the British government sent spokespeople down there to say no comment ? come on you are going to have to do better than that,

Diplomats frequently say "no comment". Nothing unusual about that.

They are diplomats now ? so not spokespeople anymore? you story keeps changing a bit like the convicts alibis

Clutching at straws a bit aren't you? "Diplomats", or "spokespeople", or "Embassy officials" - does it really matter? The only point that is being made is that they were not "forensic experts or police",

[sambum]

^It's glaringly obvious that Hannah's clothes had the 'wrong' dna on them.

So were her clothes lost or not?