The term "oriental" -- insulting and outdated?

[MediaWatcher]

In Roman days there was no East/West, as for Americans, please, think think think, East/West culture, hence America, Australia New Zealand etc are, generally, "western" in culture which has migrated around the globe, but the fact still remains, the original East/West is to do with the divide between Europe and Asia

A very quick search, on Eastern cuture, turns this up, I do hope it HELPs you understand the meaning of East/West.

The term Eastern world refers very broadly to the various cultures or social structures and philosophical systems of Asia or geographically the countries and cultures east of Europe, north of Oceania.

You are basically making the exact same argument that I am, only you are saying the line is the arbitrary divide between Europe and Asia(Turkey?) rather than Rome....I am happy to submit to your superior knowledge on that. But if it just based on a continental divide, why can we not just use those names.....like for example, Asia or Asian? Rather than something some people may find offensive.

I have no actual opinion on whether it is offensive or not, but I won't use the term incase someone else finds it offensive....I just find that common decency.

You can choose whatever term you wish, but remember, no matter what you use, Asian, European etc, there will always be people who find ANY label offensive.

Oh, there was NEVER a Europe, or Asia, East or West, in Roman times, so there is NO comparison between what you say and what I said, this is a fact of history, you can not change it, in fact the line between Europe and Asia runs through Turkey

Turkey is located where Asia meets Europe ( East meets West) and geographically has land on both continents. The capital Ankara and the larger portion of the country are in Asia.

[hugh2121]

Ridiculous.

"Murder on the Orient Express" should be renamed?

The term is not outdated and far less insulting than being referred to as "The Farang" instead of by name.

P.C. stupidity.

So you just don't care about other people? Yet feel insulted by "Farang"

PC just means you take other people into account, clearly you do not which speaks more about you than anyone who is "PC"

Who said anything about other "people" apart from you.

This is the post which my comment refers to:

The U.S. government has now banned use of the term ORIENTAL claiming it is insulting and outdated. Short of a slur, but not cool.

What's your impression of term oriental as used by westerners?

The US government appears to have banned use of the term ORIENTAL. It does NOT state anything at all about when referring to people. Oriental, from The Orient. CAN be used to describe people but is more often used to describe objects (e.g. Orient Express or "it's origin is Oriental" etc.) Asia is is a huge continent and Orient or Oriental is normally used when origin is uncertain but not descriptive of say, India which is a part of Asia.

Nor did I say I feel insulted by Farang. Can you read English? You don't seem to understand it.

[ljd1308]

I will build you a straw man tomorrow.......

Read the first paragraph, I have already bowed to your superior knowledge on why it was originally termed "east".

I just find it odd that you think everything on Asia is classed under the one culture that can be called "Oriental". I don't think Persians and Chinese share too much of the same culture and definitely not enough to give them all one name.

If you are just referring to "The Orient" as a geographical location(as you seem to be claiming), why not just use the correct geographical term? However, you are now saying people would be offended by that....How many people do you know that are offended by where the earth's continental plates are located and the naming of them?

I will be genuinely amazed if you can find a documented case of someone being offended by the location of the continental plates and the name of said continents. Can you?

The only thing you are actually arguing about is being a decent human being.

[ljd1308]

Ridiculous.

"Murder on the Orient Express" should be renamed?

The term is not outdated and far less insulting than being referred to as "The Farang" instead of by name.

P.C. stupidity.

So you just don't care about other people? Yet feel insulted by "Farang"

PC just means you take other people into account, clearly you do not which speaks more about you than anyone who is "PC"

Who said anything about other "people" apart from you.

This is the post which my comment refers to:

The U.S. government has now banned use of the term ORIENTAL claiming it is insulting and outdated. Short of a slur, but not cool.

What's your impression of term oriental as used by westerners?

The US government appears to have banned use of the term ORIENTAL. It does NOT state anything at all about when referring to people. Oriental, from The Orient. CAN be used to describe people but is more often used to describe objects (e.g. Orient Express or "it's origin is Oriental" etc.) Asia is is a huge continent and Orient or Oriental is normally used when origin is uncertain but not descriptive of say, India which is a part of Asia.

Nor did I say I feel insulted by Farang. Can you read English? You don't seem to understand it.

Sorry, you are right I must have completely misunderstood where you referred to "farang" as being insulting....."The term is not outdated and far less insulting than being referred to as "The Farang" instead of by name."

I read that to mean that the term "farang" was more insulting than the term "oriental",indicating that both of them were somewhat insulting(one more than the other). Perhaps you can educate me to the actual meaning of your words? I am always willing to learn.

Who said anything about other "people" apart from you.

Not even sure how to respond to that part....Something is being changed due to it potentially being offensive, the whole basis for your argument seems to be that it is not offensive.....but if not people, then who is being offended(or not being offended)?

Who is it "insulting and outdated" to if not people?

The fact that you cannot have a reasonable discussion about this without critiquing my English says quite a bit about you, if I am wrong would it not be better to tell me why? Especially after I have agreed with you in a previous post. I have asked you quite a few questions and rather than helping me to understand your point of view you have avoided them at all costs.....is that normal for you?

[DrDave]

OP: it seems a pointless exercise to ask this question of Westerners, who all have different levels of commitment to being politically correct, or stylish in regard to changing western trends in classifying ethnicity, race or geographic origin.

If you want to know if the term "oriental" is insulting or out-dated, you should be asking those that would be labeled as "oriental" if they feel the term is inappropriate. At best, asking TV forum members will only give a read on how many people follow the style de jour.

My guess is that it's not insulting, but perhaps a little old-fashioned or even quaint in some areas of the west. Take a look at the number of businesses in the west that contain the word "oriental" in their name, and are overwhelmingly owned by "orientals" - that should tell you something. I did a quick query on a public database I'm familiar with, Florida's business registration database, to see how many active companies contain the word "oriental" in their legal name. The search only allows for businesses that start with "oriental", not those that contain the word. I was surprised at how many businesses appeared in the list. Too many pages to scroll through and count. What I couldn't see was all the businesses that contain, but don't start with the word "oriental". Businesses like "XYZ Oriental Market" or "XYZ Oriental Imports". I suspect that there are a lot more of these than those that I could see.

[Jingthing]

Honestly, in the context of Thailand, I was most interested in how the word Farang is similar to the way Oriental is seen in the U.S. I know for a fact most Asian Americans feel calling them Orientals is outdated and mildly racist. I feel most westerners in Thailand recognize that Farang is also mildly racist but definitely not outdated. Maybe it will be in 100 years, and maybe not.

[SoiBiker]

I've never met anyone who thinks farang is racist. It seems to mostly be an opinion held by posters here as far as I can tell.

[connda]

Considering some overly 'politically correct' individual(s) arbitrarily decided that the term was 'insulting' or 'outdated' or 'offensive' does not make it so. I'm amazed that the average person tends to simply accept any 'dictate' from 'authority figures', 'government edicts', or 'experts'. That's rather sad.

Oriental. It's a word that historically has no pejorative meaning inherently attached to it. Oriental --> i.e., a person from the 'Orient'. If it's been defined as something different and then assigned a pejorative meaning, then someone is engaging in social engineering for the purposes of exerting power and control over others.

But if you're a believer in all things PC, then you have no problems with the global push to restrict freedom of expression and thought by 'outlawing' certain words and expressions. Sure, global governments and entities can (and do) restrict freedom of express (which is an natural or inalienable right, but I digress) but the end result of suppressing expression and thought is akin to tossing the issues in a pressure vessel and turning the heat up to high.

But at the end of the day, what difference does it make. Historically the world alternates between periods of oppressive 'Dark Ages' and more 'Enlightened' periods of freedom (e.g., freedom of expression, freedom of thought). We just happen to be on the downward slope toward another oppressive dark age. However, in even the most oppressive periods of times, the seeds of 'enlightenment' are still planted and nurtured by some; and even in the most enlightened times, the seeds of 'oppression' are still planted and nurtured by others; ad-infinitum. That's the way of this world.

Well, imho, of course. Your mileage may vary.

The highlighted bit hits the nail on the head, but what is wrong in changing it of someone(anyone) gets offended by it? What does it cost you to say Asian instead of Oriental?

It literally makes no difference, they are interchangeable and people would know your meaning......the only difference is one could potentially offend someone. So why use that one?

Following your logic it is time to change Latino to some other word because someone finds it offensive. No more 'Latino' to describe people of Latin origin.

Actually, I tell you what. Let's just tell the overly-sensitive folks who suddenly find a common term that previously had no pejorative meaning to be insulting to grow a thicker skin and simply get over their self-importance and their attempt to control other peoples use of language. It's social engineering for the sake of control, and it's utter BS.

So if the best word in my lexicon at the moment leads me to use 'oriental' to describe a sub-set of Asian people, I will. "Oriental" never had a negative meaning during my lifetime and if it supportively does now, some idiot dug really deep to find something wrong with the word. Now 'chink', 'gook', or 'slope'. Yes - those are derogatory and I myself would probably chide a person who choose use them. I use them here simply as examples of truly derogatory and offensive words.

"Oriental?" Give me a break. The PC world is truly insane. But if you disagree, please don't offend me by uttering "Latino" ever again? ¿Comprende amigo? Bueno!

Edited May 29, 2016 by connda

[ljd1308]

Considering some overly 'politically correct' individual(s) arbitrarily decided that the term was 'insulting' or 'outdated' or 'offensive' does not make it so. I'm amazed that the average person tends to simply accept any 'dictate' from 'authority figures', 'government edicts', or 'experts'. That's rather sad.

Oriental. It's a word that historically has no pejorative meaning inherently attached to it. Oriental --> i.e., a person from the 'Orient'. If it's been defined as something different and then assigned a pejorative meaning, then someone is engaging in social engineering for the purposes of exerting power and control over others.

But if you're a believer in all things PC, then you have no problems with the global push to restrict freedom of expression and thought by 'outlawing' certain words and expressions. Sure, global governments and entities can (and do) restrict freedom of express (which is an natural or inalienable right, but I digress) but the end result of suppressing expression and thought is akin to tossing the issues in a pressure vessel and turning the heat up to high.

But at the end of the day, what difference does it make. Historically the world alternates between periods of oppressive 'Dark Ages' and more 'Enlightened' periods of freedom (e.g., freedom of expression, freedom of thought). We just happen to be on the downward slope toward another oppressive dark age. However, in even the most oppressive periods of times, the seeds of 'enlightenment' are still planted and nurtured by some; and even in the most enlightened times, the seeds of 'oppression' are still planted and nurtured by others; ad-infinitum. That's the way of this world.

Well, imho, of course. Your mileage may vary.

The highlighted bit hits the nail on the head, but what is wrong in changing it of someone(anyone) gets offended by it? What does it cost you to say Asian instead of Oriental?

It literally makes no difference, they are interchangeable and people would know your meaning......the only difference is one could potentially offend someone. So why use that one?

Following your logic it is time to change Latino to some other word because someone finds it offensive. No more 'Latino' to describe people of Latin origin.

Actually, I tell you what. Let's just tell the overly-sensitive folks who suddenly find a common term that previously had no pejorative meaning to be insulting to grow a thicker skin and simply get over there self-importance. It's social engineering and it's utter BS.

So if the best word in my lexicon at the moment leads me to use 'oriental' to describe a sub-set of Asian people, I will. "Oriental" never had a negative meaning, and if it supportively does now, some idiot dug really deep to find something wrong with the word.

The PC world is truly insane.

That is exactly my logic.

Not that I have met any Latinos who would take offense(in fact most are quite proud of it), but f I did I would not refer to them as a Latino....why would I?

I see what you are saying in that somebody could take offense to virtually anything, but that doesn't mean we should disregard it.

For example there are 100's of different terms for people of African descent, some are acceptable at some time and places and others are not. Why can't the word Oriental be the same?

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Well,i dont really know.Oriental= being of oriental race.

I am British,but i dont mind being called an European.Whats the difference? Thats the continent i am from.

According to the rationale of this post,would South Africans, Zimbabweans,Moroccans,Egyptians,Tanzanians,Highly object to being called African?Because that is the continent they are from.

i dont really see it as a problem.This pc shit is getting completely stupid.

Wasnt here even a people that were called Eurasion at one time.

[Jingthing]

Well,i dont really know.Oriental= being of oriental race.

I am British,but i dont mind being called an European.Whats the difference? Thats the continent i am from.

According to the rationale of this post,would South Africans, Zimbabweans,Moroccans,Egyptians,Tanzanians,Highly object to being called African?Because that is the continent they are from.

i dont really see it as a problem.This pc shit is getting completely stupid.

Wasnt here even a people that were called Eurasion at one time.

I don't think it's purely a matter of logic.

In the U.S., over time, using the word oriental just grew out of fashion.

Now, so much so, that it can't used in government documents.

Language usage changes.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Johnatong.Just out of interest,do you actually know why Limeys are called Limeys??

[Tiger55]

Farangs are the most racist people in the world. They invented these derogatory terms as a form of oppression towards other races. There are no other racial groups other than the whites out there who formed such hate groups like the KKK, white supremacist groups, skinheads, etc. Whites oppressed the blacks the most so the whites are now referred as cracker honkey donkeys. Someone told me that white people are like crap because you see them and it everywhere in the world.

[tutsiwarrior]

in Bolivia 'oriental' (accent on the last syllable) refers to someone from the eastern lowlands, typically from the Santa Cruz area where things are very different from the indigenous highlands (very similar to what 'Gabo' Marquez describes in his novels)...the 'bad word' to use is 'camba'...

I hadn't realised this as when I was there when I was young in the1960s all my local pals in Cochabamba (the perjorative is 'colla' or simply 'indio de mierda') spoke in enthusiastic terms about the 'camba' girls (they are supposed to be loose and liked to engage in oral sex)...so I didn't realise what I was saying when I spoke in terms of 'cambas' when drinking with some strangers in a bar on the Prado in the 80s...they politely corrected me by saying 'orientales'...

I related this to my cousin who then looked me and said: 'tutsi...yew always were an idiot...them guys were most likely major drug dealers and they coulda blown you away on the spot...' and he knew what he was talkin' about...he had a sideline with the US State Dept and was involved in DEA operations in the area...

things can be complicated as I thought that I had that place 'wired'...apparently not...

Edited May 29, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[Jingthing]

Farangs are the most racist people in the world. They invented these derogatory terms as a form of oppression towards other races. There are no other racial groups other than the whites out there who formed such hate groups like the KKK, white supremacist groups, skinheads, etc. Whites oppressed the blacks the most so the whites are now referred as cracker honkey donkeys. Someone told me that white people are like crap because you see them and it everywhere in the world.

Well, thanks for sharing that lovely gem, but in reality racism exists in every society. Get to know Asian cultures well, and learn all about the racism between Asian nationalities.

[hugh2121]

Ridiculous.

"Murder on the Orient Express" should be renamed?

The term is not outdated and far less insulting than being referred to as "The Farang" instead of by name.

P.C. stupidity.

So you just don't care about other people? Yet feel insulted by "Farang"

PC just means you take other people into account, clearly you do not which speaks more about you than anyone who is "PC"

Who said anything about other "people" apart from you.

This is the post which my comment refers to:

The U.S. government has now banned use of the term ORIENTAL claiming it is insulting and outdated. Short of a slur, but not cool.

What's your impression of term oriental as used by westerners?

The US government appears to have banned use of the term ORIENTAL. It does NOT state anything at all about when referring to people. Oriental, from The Orient. CAN be used to describe people but is more often used to describe objects (e.g. Orient Express or "it's origin is Oriental" etc.) Asia is is a huge continent and Orient or Oriental is normally used when origin is uncertain but not descriptive of say, India which is a part of Asia.

Nor did I say I feel insulted by Farang. Can you read English? You don't seem to understand it.

Sorry, you are right I must have completely misunderstood where you referred to "farang" as being insulting....."The term is not outdated and far less insulting than being referred to as "The Farang" instead of by name."

I read that to mean that the term "farang" was more insulting than the term "oriental",indicating that both of them were somewhat insulting(one more than the other). Perhaps you can educate me to the actual meaning of your words? I am always willing to learn.

Who said anything about other "people" apart from you.

Not even sure how to respond to that part....Something is being changed due to it potentially being offensive, the whole basis for your argument seems to be that it is not offensive.....but if not people, then who is being offended(or not being offended)?

Who is it "insulting and outdated" to if not people?

The fact that you cannot have a reasonable discussion about this without critiquing my English says quite a bit about you, if I am wrong would it not be better to tell me why? Especially after I have agreed with you in a previous post. I have asked you quite a few questions and rather than helping me to understand your point of view you have avoided them at all costs.....is that normal for you?

OK, let me explain where I'm coming from.

Oriental meaning of or from the area of the globe known as The Orient. It can be applied to people, animals, objects and pretty well anything from that area and I do not see that as insulting or outdated.

Farang or falang as used by Thai people meaning....what exactly? Is it similar to calling black people w**gs or n*****s? Thais seem to call black people "chocolate". Jury's out on that one as it often seems to be said in a derogatory manner.

I am not unduly bothered by the word farang itself, only the way it is often used. I find it extremely rude when in the company of Thai people, I am referred to as "the falang".

When in the company of "falangs" they would refer to my wife as "your good lady" or "your wife" or something similar and certainly not as "the Thai" or "the Asian". Neither would I refer to, say, a Chinese person as "the Oriental" which, in that context could be construed as insulting.

However, to say that something is Oriental or that somebody is originally Oriental I do not find insulting any more than I find the term anglophile insulting.

I have some Danish friends who certainly don't mind being called Vikings or Skandinavians.

Putting a blanket ban on the word in all contexts seems, as I said, ridiculous. It is a perfectly valid word from the English language and appears in the English dictionary. However, the context in which many words are used has to be taken into account.

Edited May 30, 2016 by hugh2121

[hugh2121]

Farangs are the most racist people in the world. They invented these derogatory terms as a form of oppression towards other races. There are no other racial groups other than the whites out there who formed such hate groups like the KKK, white supremacist groups, skinheads, etc. Whites oppressed the blacks the most so the whites are now referred as cracker honkey donkeys. Someone told me that white people are like crap because you see them and it everywhere in the world.

Well, thanks for sharing that lovely gem, but in reality racism exists in every society. Get to know Asian cultures well, and learn all about the racism between Asian nationalities.

Hey there, are we still allowed to use the term Asian?

[Jingthing]

Farangs are the most racist people in the world. They invented these derogatory terms as a form of oppression towards other races. There are no other racial groups other than the whites out there who formed such hate groups like the KKK, white supremacist groups, skinheads, etc. Whites oppressed the blacks the most so the whites are now referred as cracker honkey donkeys. Someone told me that white people are like crap because you see them and it everywhere in the world.

Well, thanks for sharing that lovely gem, but in reality racism exists in every society. Get to know Asian cultures well, and learn all about the racism between Asian nationalities.

Hey there, are we still allowed to use the term Asian?

Allowed where? You can say Oriental if you want. The OP was only about written U.S. government DOCUMENTS now avoiding a VERY DATED term (in the U.S. context).

[SoiBiker]

Farangs are the most racist people in the world. They invented these derogatory terms as a form of oppression towards other races. There are no other racial groups other than the whites out there who formed such hate groups like the KKK, white supremacist groups, skinheads, etc. Whites oppressed the blacks the most so the whites are now referred as cracker honkey donkeys. Someone told me that white people are like crap because you see them and it everywhere in the world.

Well, thanks for sharing that lovely gem, but in reality racism exists in every society. Get to know Asian cultures well, and learn all about the racism between Asian nationalities.

Hey there, are we still allowed to use the term Asian?

Of course you are.

Funny how hard some people find it to understand this stuff. It's almost like you don't want to engage with it.

[The manic]

Far from fading away PC is spreading like a cancer into all walks of life and stifling political debate - ie ' non platforming' 'safe spaces' and the banning of raising hands or clapping at public meets in some political party meetings such as the green party in the UK. And the campaign against historic statues in the UK is another example. The crrstion of race hates crimes used to supprrss a certainb religion. And Feminism is not waining it has become entrenched in law in the UK.Political Correctness was famously used by the stasi and their ilk in communist Europe to humiliate people. It is such humiliation of the white working and middle classes by neo marxist liberals that has lead to the growth of right wing parties in Europe and Trumps nomination in the USA.

[The manic]

And I would like to add that just to be aware that in Sociocultural linguistic terms the ' Farang' is a form of racist slur does not mean I am personally offended by it. I am.not stupid enough not to understand the inherent underlying racist undertone to being called'a farang' but it does not bother me. I do not celebrate in being offended as some minority groups do.

[SoiBiker]

Far from spreading, bigotry and offensive speech is thankfully waning away and becoming a thing of the past. Aside from a few aging practitioners who are seemingly unable to adjust the way they speak, the majority of people are thankfully happy to make a few minor, inconsequential changes to their use of language in order to ensure they do not cause unnecessary offense.

[Saastrajaa]

Far from fading away PC is spreading like a cancer into all walks of life and stifling political debate - ie ' non platforming' 'safe spaces' and the banning of raising hands or clapping at public meets in some political party meetings such as the green party in the UK. And the campaign against historic statues in the UK is another example. The crrstion of race hates crimes used to supprrss a certainb religion. And Feminism is not waining it has become entrenched in law in the UK.Political Correctness was famously used by the stasi and their ilk in communist Europe to humiliate people. It is such humiliation of the white working and middle classes by neo marxist liberals that has lead to the growth of right wing parties in Europe and Trumps nomination in the USA.

I read a great quote recently. "The rantings of racists (which you obviously are) are nothing but the roars of the dinosaurs as they watch the comet approaching." Bye bye, dinosaur.

[sipi]

"Slopes" is much easier to spell.

[Asheron]

Ridiculous.

"Murder on the Orient Express" should be renamed?

The term is not outdated and far less insulting than being referred to as "The Farang" instead of by name.

P.C. stupidity.

So you just don't care about other people? Yet feel insulted by "Farang"

PC just means you take other people into account, clearly you do not which speaks more about you than anyone who is "PC"

How is that Orwellian language working out for you?

[Asheron]

What a crock of s**t. Oriental by definition means "from the East" there is no insulting overtones to it. Occidental means "from the West". The USA government should have more things to do then be bloody idiots which they obviously are. Thank goodness I don't live in the USA. Negro is also a word I think you will find in the non Obama dictionary.

And that's what's wrong with the term. It presumes that where one group is from is the center of the map, and other areas are described with reference to that. It's not the East to the people that live there.

You do know that the planet we are on is ball(ish) like right?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Asheron

[Asheron]

It's an outdated word, referring to an outdated concept - that white people were the most important, and the world revolved around them.

I can see that some here haven't quite moved on from that era.

Please start making a list (medicine, technology etc etc etc) of all the great achievements arabs, blacks and latinos have given to us the last century and then make same list of what white have given to the humanity... i know this is shocking for a SJW but you might find that the "non-white" list quite short.

[teatree]

It's an outdated word, referring to an outdated concept - that white people were the most important, and the world revolved around them.

I can see that some here haven't quite moved on from that era.

I think your thinking is what is "outdated", the word has NOTHING to do with "that white people were the most important, and the world revolved around them'

the term "Orient" derives from the Latin word oriens meaning "east." Geez, some people just don't know what they are talking about, but for some very strange reason, still want to show the world just how stupid they are.

East of where, though?

I think you're missing the point.

And the 'West' is west of where?

[teatree]

I don't think saying Oriental has been considered seriously racist. Just embarrassingly DATED.

But very useful, especially if you are in the UK where 'Asian' means Indian, Pakistani, etc.

East Asian is such an ugly term.

[Berkshire]

It's an outdated word, referring to an outdated concept - that white people were the most important, and the world revolved around them.

I can see that some here haven't quite moved on from that era.

Please start making a list (medicine, technology etc etc etc) of all the great achievements arabs, blacks and latinos have given to us the last century and then make same list of what white have given to the humanity... i know this is shocking for a SJW but you might find that the "non-white" list quite short.

Wow, here's a guy trying to take credit for other people's achievements because they may have the same skin color as him. Here's a more relevant question: what have YOU given to humanity? So essentially, you're the same as these "arabs, blacks and latinos" that you're criticizing. You have absolutely nothing in common with the great minds of the last century, so don't even pretend that you do.