Foreign owned business closings ... worse than ever?

[moonseeker]

For those who claim that businesses aren't closing down, I had to be on North Pattaya road today, and what I saw was scary.

On the stretch from Makro to the section with 3rd road, about 70% of the businesses have a

sign for rent or for sale on the front. Many of them were Indian taylors I recall.

Most of them seem to use the same agent as I could notice from the phone number.

+ 1. Clearly most don't pay attention to this situation. Never been in business, employed with limited options & responsibilities and living on savings and pensions. Why should they? They still have a cheap and good lifestyle, most of them never even read a real newspaper.

Business people have seen this coming for a while. You are right, it is incredible, even more interesting, that now also prime locations/Sois/Roads massively affected. Never been like that. And many buildings looking totally neglected. I have several friends who run medium to bigger businesses allover Thailand and almost very single one sees pretty dark for the moment. Many of them planning exit-strategies. I think there are so many negative factors and LOS has not only lost most smiles, but unfortunately most positive factors to vacation or live here. Just look at the environment and the general daily headlines. I know of much better places around the world. All depends what you are looking for. Pity. MS>

[JSixpack]

For those who claim that businesses aren't closing down, I had to be on North Pattaya road today, and what I saw was scary.

On the stretch from Makro to the section with 3rd road, about 70% of the businesses have a sign for rent or for sale on the front. Many of them were Indian taylors I recall.

Most of them seem to use the same agent as I could notice from the phone number.

For many years I've driven on Pattaya Nua and wondered how most of the businesses were staying afloat. Indian tailors? What an inconceivably poor location out on the fringe. Tourist footfalls are their lifesblood. Only foot traffic there are baked-beans-on-toast tourists who can't afford a baht bus from the bus terminal. No parking really, no pedestrian bridges or lights. Even the mall on the corner of Nua and 2nd Rd, location for the new Terminal 21, was always mostly vacant.

Only a niche market shop w/ a product hard to find more conveniently elsewhere, and with steady demand from locals, not tourists, could survive long-term over there.

So just expected results from poor business decisions about location. Years ago, Soi Lenkee and Soi Chaiyapoon were all shuttered up too. But they came back. Business cycles and all that.

Hardly scary but merely a comforting affirmation of normal rational operation of the market in a world so often bewildering and misleading our TVF posters. You may sleep soundly.

Edited June 4, 2016 by JSixpack

[manarak]

Soi LK Metro always popular with Brits and many Falang owned businesses. I agree with the poster below who says

Without actually counting there must be around a dozen agogos in the soi that vary in quality but with the majority continually proving popular.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/920983-the-changing-face-of-pattayas-lk-metro-by-the-pattaya-sleuth/

I believe you have to take the opinions of JT with a grain of salt because he didn't make it in Thailand and has to go home if his other posts are any indication. A better source would be the Inspire group who actually works in Thailand.

LK Metro was busy the last time I visited a few months ago. I have found that some places are busy and some are not.

For those old timers, do you remember Pattaya Land soi one and two. This area had about 8 gogo bars and the streets were crazy with punters every night. The bars were packed for a few years and then just like that it started to die and now it is dead ... The hot spots change every 7 to 10 years and Soi LK Metro will follow history. I just wonder where the next hot spot will be ?

For those old timers, do you remember Pattaya Land soi one and two.

I rememebr them well, that placed stared dying by greed about 16 years ago when the Anzac Hotel forced out due to the rental increase.

Remember Daves GB Bar when it first it was on Beach Rd,then moved to PL, then moved to nakon nowhere on Second Rd?

Where is Palmers Bar now?

Its the rentals these guys have to pay that kills them, not the lack of customers, strange isnt it, the Thai owned places are still going..

Not mentioned above about PL 1 & 2 was when BoyzTown bars from PL 3 started creeping in.

businesses that have to pay rent to a landlord will always be at a big disadvantage in Thailand.

[morrobay]

One new comfortable affirmations of a normal rational operating of the market in all of Pattaya : Finally - laws of supply and demand

Edited June 4, 2016 by morrobay

[JSixpack]

One new comfortable affirmations of a normal rational operating of the market in all of Pattaya : Finally - laws of supply and demand

Let's not distort as usual. On Pattaya Nua, that does seem happening, yes. Patience: you've got Terminal 21 coming to lick your chops over!

[muzmurray]

So rob thinks I'm stupid. I won't say what I think about rob. Read between the lines.

How do I read between the lines, when there is only one line?

[Berty100]

For those who claim that businesses aren't closing down, I had to be on North Pattaya road today, and what I saw was scary.

On the stretch from Makro to the section with 3rd road, about 70% of the businesses have a sign for rent or for sale on the front. Many of them were Indian taylors I recall.

Most of them seem to use the same agent as I could notice from the phone number.

For many years I've driven on Pattaya Nua and wondered how most of the businesses were staying afloat. Indian tailors? What an inconceivably poor location out on the fringe. Tourist footfalls are their lifesblood. Only foot traffic there are baked-beans-on-toast tourists who can't afford a baht bus from the bus terminal. No parking really, no pedestrian bridges or lights. Even the mall on the corner of Nua and 2nd Rd, location for the new Terminal 21, was always mostly vacant.

Only a niche market shop w/ a product hard to find more conveniently elsewhere, and with steady demand from locals, not tourists, could survive long-term over there.

So just expected results from poor business decisions about location. Years ago, Soi Lenkee and Soi Chaiyapoon were all shuttered up too. But they came back. Business cycles and all that.

Hardly scary but merely a comforting affirmation of normal rational operation of the market in a world so often bewildering and misleading our TVF posters. You may sleep soundly.

You mean the Electrician, the hardware store and the pool shop that shut down, just to name a few and who all have parking right in front of their store, all catered to tourists?

It seems that you get very desperate, making up lame excuses that actually border trolling, just to defend you apologist attitude.

I'm sure that if tomorrow businesses in Soi Lengkee start failing one by one, which isn't an utopia by the way, you will also come here making up, more excuses that you saw it all coming.

You may already start thinking up some, because i see that the large motorbike accessory shop on the corner of Lengkee and 3rd road, has the shutters down for some time already.

Maybe more will follow suit soon.

[Berty100]

One new comfortable affirmations of a normal rational operating of the market in all of Pattaya : Finally - laws of supply and demand

Let's not distort as usual. On Pattaya Nua, that does seem happening, yes. Patience: you've got Terminal 21 coming to lick your chops over!

We have patience, as the opening of terminal 21 will definitely eliminate a few more shops on that stretch of road.

[JSixpack]

For those old timers, do you remember Pattaya Land soi one and two.

Killed when the ladies were forced to cover up. Too bad. The gay expansion in the area turned off a lot of straight guys, too. Shamrock even felt it expedient to put up sign stating a "no gays" policy. Meanwhile, Walking St is a short walk away. A part of Pattayaland appeal was lower prices than Walking St., but then rents increased of course in line with Beach Rd. development, so revenues couldn't keep up. That was it.

[elgordo38]

In some ways I agree with the poster but a strange thing happened in our condo. I have lived here 5 years and when I moved in times were not bad. We had about 10 empty commercial units on the ground floor that were empty. Within the last year we have had about 4 businesses move in and rent or buy these spaces. Maybe hard times spur on new small business ventures.

[simon43]

There is a new group of tourists coming to Thailand them do not go to bars do not look for girls.

Let me guess. Teetotal gay men

[JSixpack]

For those who claim that businesses aren't closing down, I had to be on North Pattaya road today, and what I saw was scary.

On the stretch from Makro to the section with 3rd road, about 70% of the businesses have a sign for rent or for sale on the front. Many of them were Indian taylors I recall.

Most of them seem to use the same agent as I could notice from the phone number.

For many years I've driven on Pattaya Nua and wondered how most of the businesses were staying afloat. Indian tailors? What an inconceivably poor location out on the fringe. Tourist footfalls are their lifesblood. Only foot traffic there are baked-beans-on-toast tourists who can't afford a baht bus from the bus terminal. No parking really, no pedestrian bridges or lights. Even the mall on the corner of Nua and 2nd Rd, location for the new Terminal 21, was always mostly vacant.

Only a niche market shop w/ a product hard to find more conveniently elsewhere, and with steady demand from locals, not tourists, could survive long-term over there.

So just expected results from poor business decisions about location. Years ago, Soi Lenkee and Soi Chaiyapoon were all shuttered up too. But they came back. Business cycles and all that.

Hardly scary but merely a comforting affirmation of normal rational operation of the market in a world so often bewildering and misleading our TVF posters. You may sleep soundly.

You mean the Electrician, the hardware store and the pool shop that shut down, just to name a few and who all have parking right in front of their store, all catered to tourists?

It seems that you get very desperate, making up lame excuses that actually border trolling, just to defend you apologist attitude.

I'm sure that if tomorrow businesses in Soi Lengkee start failing one by one, which isn't an utopia by the way, you will also come here making up, more excuses that you saw it all coming.

You may already start thinking up some, because i see that the large motorbike accessory shop on the corner of Lengkee and 3rd road, has the shutters down for some time already.

Maybe more will follow suit soon.

I addressed your very own assertion about the tailors and suchlike, from Makro to 3rd Rd, usually dependent on foot traffic--with which you didn't disagree. As for the others, yes, not too much parking around (front of the shop always taken). I know of a small business who moved out of that area for exactly that reason. Plus in those cases you have competition from the rise of HomePro etc. If a person now buys his hardware from HomePro rather than a mom&pop on Pattaya Nua, and that large parking lot is more packed than its ever been, how scary is that really? Not time to curl up in a fetal position quite yet I think. Classic case of mom&pop vs the chains and the malls--that impact can't be understated. Rent, now, was cheap on Pattaya Nua--for good reason--attracting a lot shoestring businesses.

Nor would I pretend to anything like the breathtaking prescience of our ace TVF economists with their outstanding forecasting track records. Givin' me way too much credit, man. My attitude is just a humble wait & see except in the most obvious cases, such as CentralFestival or Big C Extra. And I feel confident Harbor Mall is going to do OK, too.

I'd say that Soi Lenkee looks vulnerable as so much has been invested in a relatively narrow target market, always riskier. Around Wong Amart, businesses targeting Russians found this out. But then other businesses will no doubt move in at some point. I still think we can sleep soundly at night.

Motorbike accessories--I dunno that market but looks to me Thais are buying a lot of new bikes (on credit, lol) and are less interested in accessories for them or if so more probably get them at their dealers who also have accessories--higher quality that fit. And we've had Big Wing open up in the past few years, major operation. Our ace TVF motorbike accessories analysts can weigh in on that. I think most everyone can agree, esp. we motorbike riders, that the number of motorbikes on the roads and sois in and around Pattaya has been steadily growing.

Yeah, some close, some open. More seem to be opening than closing, which you may find distressing, but I think a fact when you include the mall, Thai eating and entertainment venues, and Chinese tourist-oriented businesses. And then there's Terminal 21 coming, OMG.

Fallback deathwatcher position: the new shops are all going to fail! OH NO. Here ya go; let's get it all out: the dire future of Pattaya and of farangs in Thailand has already been depicted, graphically, on THIS forum to your complete and utter satisfaction. Besides this, the TV forum posters' sage, street-smart three Primal Laws Of Survival In Thailand are enshrined as gospel. Urgent, unequivocal advice was given years ago for everyone to RUN! NOW! We don't know what nasty surprises are in store!

Edited June 4, 2016 by JSixpack

[Seizetheday]

For those who claim that businesses aren't closing down, I had to be on North Pattaya road today, and what I saw was scary.

On the stretch from Makro to the section with 3rd road, about 70% of the businesses have a sign for rent or for sale on the front. Many of them were Indian taylors I recall.

Most of them seem to use the same agent as I could notice from the phone number.

For many years I've driven on Pattaya Nua and wondered how most of the businesses were staying afloat. Indian tailors? What an inconceivably poor location out on the fringe. Tourist footfalls are their lifesblood. Only foot traffic there are baked-beans-on-toast tourists who can't afford a baht bus from the bus terminal. No parking really, no pedestrian bridges or lights. Even the mall on the corner of Nua and 2nd Rd, location for the new Terminal 21, was always mostly vacant.

Only a niche market shop w/ a product hard to find more conveniently elsewhere, and with steady demand from locals, not tourists, could survive long-term over there.

So just expected results from poor business decisions about location. Years ago, Soi Lenkee and Soi Chaiyapoon were all shuttered up too. But they came back. Business cycles and all that.

Hardly scary but merely a comforting affirmation of normal rational operation of the market in a world so often bewildering and misleading our TVF posters. You may sleep soundly.

You mean the Electrician, the hardware store and the pool shop that shut down, just to name a few and who all have parking right in front of their store, all catered to tourists?

It seems that you get very desperate, making up lame excuses that actually border trolling, just to defend you apologist attitude.

I'm sure that if tomorrow businesses in Soi Lengkee start failing one by one, which isn't an utopia by the way, you will also come here making up, more excuses that you saw it all coming.

You may already start thinking up some, because i see that the large motorbike accessory shop on the corner of Lengkee and 3rd road, has the shutters down for some time already.

Maybe more will follow suit soon.

I addressed your very own assertion about the tailors and suchlike, from Makro to 3rd Rd, usually dependent on foot traffic--with which you didn't disagree. As for the others, yes, not too much parking around (front of the shop always taken). I know of a small business who moved out of that area for exactly that reason. Plus in those cases you have competition from the rise of HomePro etc. If a person now buys his hardware from HomePro rather than a mom&pop on Pattaya Nua, and that large parking lot is more packed than its ever been, how scary is that really? Not time to curl up in a fetal position quite yet I think. Classic case of mom&pop vs the chains and the malls--that impact can't be understated. Rent, now, was cheap on Pattaya Nua--for good reason--attracting a lot shoestring businesses.

Nor would I pretend to anything like the breathtaking prescience of our ace TVF economists with their outstanding forecasting track records. Givin' me way too much credit, man. My attitude is just a humble wait & see except in the most obvious cases, such as CentralFestival or Big C Extra. And I feel confident Harbor Mall is going to do OK, too.

I'd say that Soi Lenkee looks vulnerable as so much has been invested in a relatively narrow target market, always riskier. Around Wong Amart, businesses targeting Russians found this out. But then other businesses will no doubt move in at some point. I still think we can sleep soundly at night.

Motorbike accessories--I dunno that market but looks to me Thais are buying a lot of new bikes (on credit, lol) and are less interested in accessories for them or if so more probably get them at their dealers who also have accessories--higher quality that fit. And we've had Big Wing open up in the past few years, major operation. Our ace TVF motorbike accessories analysts can weigh in on that. I think most everyone can agree, esp. we motorbike riders, that the number of motorbikes on the roads and sois in and around Pattaya has been steadily growing.

Yeah, some close, some open. More seem to be opening than closing, which you may find distressing, but I think a fact when you include the mall, Thai eating and entertainment venues, and Chinese tourist-oriented businesses. And then there's Terminal 21 coming, OMG.

Fallback deathwatcher position: the new shops are all going to fail! OH NO. Here ya go; let's get it all out: the dire future of Pattaya and of farangs in Thailand has already been depicted, graphically, on THIS forum to your complete and utter satisfaction. Besides this, the TV forum posters' sage, street-smart three Primal Laws Of Survival In Thailand are enshrined as gospel. Urgent, unequivocal advice was given years ago for everyone to RUN! NOW! We don't know what nasty surprises are in store!

You don't have to be a TVF economist, just look at the anaemic GDP growth of Thailand compared to other SE Asian countries.

[NanLaew]

I addressed your very own assertion about the tailors and suchlike, from Makro to 3rd Rd, usually dependent on foot traffic--with which you didn't disagree. As for the others, yes, not too much parking around (front of the shop always taken). I know of a small business who moved out of that area for exactly that reason. Plus in those cases you have competition from the rise of HomePro etc. If a person now buys his hardware from HomePro rather than a mom&pop on Pattaya Nua, and that large parking lot is more packed than its ever been, how scary is that really? Not time to curl up in a fetal position quite yet I think. Classic case of mom&pop vs the chains and the malls--that impact can't be understated. Rent, now, was cheap on Pattaya Nua--for good reason--attracting a lot shoestring businesses.

Nor would I pretend to anything like the breathtaking prescience of our ace TVF economists with their outstanding forecasting track records. Givin' me way too much credit, man. My attitude is just a humble wait & see except in the most obvious cases, such as CentralFestival or Big C Extra. And I feel confident Harbor Mall is going to do OK, too.

I'd say that Soi Lenkee looks vulnerable as so much has been invested in a relatively narrow target market, always riskier. Around Wong Amart, businesses targeting Russians found this out. But then other businesses will no doubt move in at some point. I still think we can sleep soundly at night.

Motorbike accessories--I dunno that market but looks to me Thais are buying a lot of new bikes (on credit, lol) and are less interested in accessories for them or if so more probably get them at their dealers who also have accessories--higher quality that fit. And we've had Big Wing open up in the past few years, major operation. Our ace TVF motorbike accessories analysts can weigh in on that. I think most everyone can agree, esp. we motorbike riders, that the number of motorbikes on the roads and sois in and around Pattaya has been steadily growing.

Yeah, some close, some open. More seem to be opening than closing, which you may find distressing, but I think a fact when you include the mall, Thai eating and entertainment venues, and Chinese tourist-oriented businesses. And then there's Terminal 21 coming, OMG.

Fallback deathwatcher position: the new shops are all going to fail! OH NO. Here ya go; let's get it all out: the dire future of Pattaya and of farangs in Thailand has already been depicted, graphically, on THIS forum to your complete and utter satisfaction. Besides this, the TV forum posters' sage, street-smart three Primal Laws Of Survival In Thailand are enshrined as gospel. Urgent, unequivocal advice was given years ago for everyone to RUN! NOW! We don't know what nasty surprises are in store!

You don't have to be a TVF economist, just look at the anaemic GDP growth of Thailand compared to other SE Asian countries.

It's rather quaint to use the rise and fall of shonky foreign enterprises and their replacement by 'up market' commercial developments as some sort of gauge of the social maturing of Pattaya as well as the nations financial well being. All this talk about the amount of older businesses folding being bypassed by the amounts of newer ones opening belies the fact that absolutely none of this completely disproportionate commercial investment is in the least bit sustainable when taken in the global context. There's another member here who repeatedly dismisses the conspicuously high local turnover of back-to-back businesses a some sort of retail 'churn' that is a fundamental fact of normal business life.

[midas]

In some ways I agree with the poster but a strange thing happened in our condo. I have lived here 5 years and when I moved in times were not bad. We had about 10 empty commercial units on the ground floor that were empty. Within the last year we have had about 4 businesses move in and rent or buy these spaces. Maybe hard times spur on new small business ventures.

or that it takes 5 years of staring at an empty space for the owners to come to their senses and lower the rent?

[rgs2001uk]

For those old timers, do you remember Pattaya Land soi one and two.

Killed when the ladies were forced to cover up. Too bad. The gay expansion in the area turned off a lot of straight guys, too. Shamrock even felt it expedient to put up sign stating a "no gays" policy. Meanwhile, Walking St is a short walk away. A part of Pattayaland appeal was lower prices than Walking St., but then rents increased of course in line with Beach Rd. development, so revenues couldn't keep up. That was it.

15 years ago Walking Street as we know it today didnt exist.

In fact 15 years ago I could see no reason to drink on WS, apart from a few bars, Black & White, Roo Bar, the cheesy Gatoey place (Simons?), there really wasnt much on WS to attract your average toursist or monger.

Never mind Pattaya keeps on reinventing itself, it is whatever you want it to be.

[morrobay]

I addressed your very own assertion about the tailors and suchlike, from Makro to 3rd Rd, usually dependent on foot traffic--with which you didn't disagree. As for the others, yes, not too much parking around (front of the shop always taken). I know of a small business who moved out of that area for exactly that reason. Plus in those cases you have competition from the rise of HomePro etc. If a person now buys his hardware from HomePro rather than a mom&pop on Pattaya Nua, and that large parking lot is more packed than its ever been, how scary is that really? Not time to curl up in a fetal position quite yet I think. Classic case of mom&pop vs the chains and the malls--that impact can't be understated. Rent, now, was cheap on Pattaya Nua--for good reason--attracting a lot shoestring businesses.

Nor would I pretend to anything like the breathtaking prescience of our ace TVF economists with their outstanding forecasting track records. Givin' me way too much credit, man. My attitude is just a humble wait & see except in the most obvious cases, such as CentralFestival or Big C Extra. And I feel confident Harbor Mall is going to do OK, too.

I'd say that Soi Lenkee looks vulnerable as so much has been invested in a relatively narrow target market, always riskier. Around Wong Amart, businesses targeting Russians found this out. But then other businesses will no doubt move in at some point. I still think we can sleep soundly at night.

Motorbike accessories--I dunno that market but looks to me Thais are buying a lot of new bikes (on credit, lol) and are less interested in accessories for them or if so more probably get them at their dealers who also have accessories--higher quality that fit. And we've had Big Wing open up in the past few years, major operation. Our ace TVF motorbike accessories analysts can weigh in on that. I think most everyone can agree, esp. we motorbike riders, that the number of motorbikes on the roads and sois in and around Pattaya has been steadily growing.

Yeah, some close, some open. More seem to be opening than closing, which you may find distressing, but I think a fact when you include the mall, Thai eating and entertainment venues, and Chinese tourist-oriented businesses. And then there's Terminal 21 coming, OMG.

Fallback deathwatcher position: the new shops are all going to fail! OH NO. Here ya go; let's get it all out: the dire future of Pattaya and of farangs in Thailand has already been depicted, graphically, on THIS forum to your complete and utter satisfaction. Besides this, the TV forum posters' sage, street-smart three Primal Laws Of Survival In Thailand are enshrined as gospel. Urgent, unequivocal advice was given years ago for everyone to RUN! NOW! We don't know what nasty surprises are in store!

You don't have to be a TVF economist, just look at the anaemic GDP growth of Thailand compared to other SE Asian countries.

It's rather quaint to use the rise and fall of shonky foreign enterprises and their replacement by 'up market' commercial developments as some sort of gauge of the social maturing of Pattaya as well as the nations financial well being. All this talk about the amount of older businesses folding being bypassed by the amounts of newer ones opening belies the fact that absolutely none of this completely disproportionate commercial investment is in the least bit sustainable when taken in the global context. There's another member here who repeatedly dismisses the conspicuously high local turnover of back-to-back businesses a some sort of retail 'churn' that is a fundamental fact of normal business life.

Good point . It seems the main action is in turnover. Everywhere there is serial closing and renovation. A variant of the un sustainable pyramid scheme ?

[JSixpack]

For those old timers, do you remember Pattaya Land soi one and two.

Killed when the ladies were forced to cover up. Too bad. The gay expansion in the area turned off a lot of straight guys, too. Shamrock even felt it expedient to put up sign stating a "no gays" policy. Meanwhile, Walking St is a short walk away. A part of Pattayaland appeal was lower prices than Walking St., but then rents increased of course in line with Beach Rd. development, so revenues couldn't keep up. That was it.

15 years ago Walking Street as we know it today didnt exist.

In fact 15 years ago I could see no reason to drink on WS, apart from a few bars, Black & White, Roo Bar, the cheesy Gatoey place (Simons?), there really wasnt much on WS to attract your average toursist or monger.

Never mind Pattaya keeps on reinventing itself, it is whatever you want it to be.

But I couldn't see any reason to drink in those bars.

Actually WS was goin' strong in those days, crowded w/ your average toursists & mongers, so well that the old Electric Blue (quite different from the present incarnation, yes) had seen fit to make its substantial investment. Me, I enjoyed Peppermint in its old location upstairs where the bartenders were topless and the "office" window had an interesting show. TQ2 was still around. The Blues Factory, still great. To mention a few--I'm sure our old timers can give you a long list of places well worth visiting and will argue that WS was a lot better then than now.

So I think you're in the minority in that view, as you were in 2009 when you claimed all the girls in Pattaya were now old, fat, and ugly.

Differn't strokes!

[thaiduncankk]

For those old timers, do you remember Pattaya Land soi one and two.

Killed when the ladies were forced to cover up. Too bad. The gay expansion in the area turned off a lot of straight guys, too. Shamrock even felt it expedient to put up sign stating a "no gays" policy. Meanwhile, Walking St is a short walk away. A part of Pattayaland appeal was lower prices than Walking St., but then rents increased of course in line with Beach Rd. development, so revenues couldn't keep up. That was it.

15 years ago Walking Street as we know it today didnt exist.

In fact 15 years ago I could see no reason to drink on WS, apart from a few bars, Black & White, Roo Bar, the cheesy Gatoey place (Simons?), there really wasnt much on WS to attract your average toursist or monger.

Never mind Pattaya keeps on reinventing itself, it is whatever you want it to be.

But I couldn't see any reason to drink in those bars.

Actually WS was goin' strong in those days, crowded w/ your average toursists & mongers, so well that the old Electric Blue (quite different from the present incarnation, yes) had seen fit to make its substantial investment. Me, I enjoyed Peppermint in its old location upstairs where the bartenders were topless and the "office" window had an interesting show. TQ2 was still around. The Blues Factory, still great. To mention a few--I'm sure our old timers can give you a long list of places well worth visiting and will argue that WS was a lot better then than now.

So I think you're in the minority in that view, as you were in 2009 when you claimed all the girls in Pattaya were now old, fat, and ugly.

Differn't strokes!

1991, Swiss Chalet, right at the entrance to WS on the right hand side.

Best 'people watching' locality in those days.

[JSixpack]

It's rather quaint to use the rise and fall of shonky foreign enterprises and their replacement by 'up market' commercial developments as some sort of gauge of the social maturing of Pattaya as well as the nations financial well being.

Not that anyone claimed that, mind you. "Social maturing" would be a laugh. Changing, unquestionably.

All this talk about the amount of older businesses folding being bypassed by the amounts of newer ones opening belies the fact that absolutely none of this completely disproportionate commercial investment is in the least bit sustainable when taken in the global context.

Well, now, if we're gonna elevate the topic to the global, even galactic, arena, we need to cue midas, who keeps very up-to-date on such and will have the most knowledgeable, appropriate advice of all our ace TVF macroeconomists, some of whom I fear are imposters. In fact, we need a thread about possible bunker locations around Pattaya and costs of construction. High places--proof against tsunamis, too, and Pattaya's inevitable demise from rising sea levels due to global warming.

[Scotwight]

Downtown Patts has dangerous levels of air pollution, traffic jams, throngs of package tourist, over building - with no zoning regulations, and sois being used by tour buses. They are trying to turn the worlds biggest brothel in to a family tourist destination. In other words - big money is funneling the money out of Patts - which causes business failure.

Compared to Chiang Mai and Bangkok Pattaya's air is pure as the driven snow. More hookers in Bangkok than Pattaya and the world's biggest Brothel was in Saigon if my memory is correct. Big money is streaming into Pattaya. Take a look at the new hotel construction.

[Scotwight]

Downtown Patts has dangerous levels of air pollution, traffic jams, throngs of package tourist, over building - with no zoning regulations, and sois being used by tour buses. They are trying to turn the worlds biggest brothel in to a family tourist destination. In other words - big money is funneling the money out of Patts - which causes business failure.

Compared to Chiang Mai and Bangkok Pattaya's air is pure as the driven snow. More hookers in Bangkok than Pattaya and the world's biggest Brothel was in Saigon if my memory is correct. Big money is streaming into Pattaya. Take a look at the new hotel construction.

Do you live in Pattaya?

I've lived in Bangkok 2 years. Chiang Mai 3 years and Pattaya 3 years. Now I live in a smaller town about an hour away from Pattaya. I have business in Pattaya monthly and have had for 10 years so I've seen the new construction grow.

[chrisandsu]

With all these foreign businesses shutting ,we should never underestimate that there will always be another 2 week millionaire looking to step

Into the void .

[NanLaew]

It's rather quaint to use the rise and fall of shonky foreign enterprises and their replacement by 'up market' commercial developments as some sort of gauge of the social maturing of Pattaya as well as the nations financial well being.

Not that anyone claimed that, mind you. "Social maturing" would be a laugh. Changing, unquestionably.

All this talk about the amount of older businesses folding being bypassed by the amounts of newer ones opening belies the fact that absolutely none of this completely disproportionate commercial investment is in the least bit sustainable when taken in the global context.

Well, now, if we're gonna elevate the topic to the global, even galactic, arena, we need to cue midas, who keeps very up-to-date on such and will have the most knowledgeable, appropriate advice of all our ace TVF macroeconomists, some of whom I fear are imposters. In fact, we need a thread about possible bunker locations around Pattaya and costs of construction. High places--proof against tsunamis, too, and Pattaya's inevitable demise from rising sea levels due to global warming.

Maybe the "social maturing" claim hasn't been specifically laid in this rather sad, perpetually inward looking thread with its equally sad, perpetually inward looking antagonists. If one can avoid the temptation to give (yet another) glib, questionably witty, one-liner reply, since when has the very real and very visible changes in the overall Pattaya demographic not been a part of "changing"?

So there's no tangible linkage between Pattaya's commercial 'churn', both foreign invested and home-grown, and the broader, global indications of overall negative growth? Why do the proponents need to be perpetually and disparagingly consigned to the doomsayers and latterly the tinfoil hat brigade? The name calling is getting old and belies a rather shallow foundation for the insistence on wearing those questionably cute but rather unfashionable rose-tinted glasses.

...or the local, saffron-tinted ones.

[Berty100]

What all apologists on this forum conveniently overlook is that the foreign owned businesses closing is not restricted to Pattaya.

Just recently a major foreign business left the country, it's name was Casino, and I recall it is only the last one on an ever growing list which include companies like Samsung and Toyota just to name two.

And you also all seem to conveniently forget the figures the Thai government publishes.

http://www.thestar.com.my/business/business-news/2016/01/13/foreign-investment-plummets-in-junta-ruled-thailand/

Total investment applied for by foreign companies between January and November 2015 plunged 78% from a year earlier to 93.8 billion baht (US$2.62 billion), according to figures from Thailand’s state-run Board of Investment (BoI) sent to AFP late Tuesday. <snip>

Particularly worrying for Prime Minister Prayut is a significant drop off in investment from Japan - historically the largest investor in Thailand by far - which slumped 81%.

EU investment also plunged from 86.7 billion baht in 2014 to just 2 billion baht last year. Investment from the United States was also heavily down, while Chinese investment was only down slightly.

Krystal Tan, an Asia economist with Capital Economics, said the trend was indicative of deeper fissures within the Thai economy, which was among the slowest growing in the region last year.

Or the news brought out by credible foreign media.

http://www.ibtimes.com/japanese-companies-shift-investment-vietnam-thailand-china-become-less-attractive-1560462

Japanese investors are heading to Vietnam as of late, as Thailand is rocked by political instability and China becomes less attractive with rising wages. Increasing foreign capital could help Vietnam welcome a new era of productivity.

So no, it isn't only those 6 month millionaires that see it coming, it are also the companies that know much much more about the real situation in Thailand than anyone else on this forum.

[NanLaew]

What all apologists on this forum conveniently overlook is that the foreign owned businesses closing is not restricted to Pattaya.

Just recently a major foreign business left the country, it's name was Casino, and I recall it is only the last one on an ever growing list which include companies like Samsung and Toyota just to name two.

And you also all seem to conveniently forget the figures the Thai government publishes.

http://www.thestar.com.my/business/business-news/2016/01/13/foreign-investment-plummets-in-junta-ruled-thailand/

Total investment applied for by foreign companies between January and November 2015 plunged 78% from a year earlier to 93.8 billion baht (US$2.62 billion), according to figures from Thailand’s state-run Board of Investment (BoI) sent to AFP late Tuesday. <snip>

Particularly worrying for Prime Minister Prayut is a significant drop off in investment from Japan - historically the largest investor in Thailand by far - which slumped 81%.

EU investment also plunged from 86.7 billion baht in 2014 to just 2 billion baht last year. Investment from the United States was also heavily down, while Chinese investment was only down slightly.

Krystal Tan, an Asia economist with Capital Economics, said the trend was indicative of deeper fissures within the Thai economy, which was among the slowest growing in the region last year.

Or the news brought out by credible foreign media.

http://www.ibtimes.com/japanese-companies-shift-investment-vietnam-thailand-china-become-less-attractive-1560462

Japanese investors are heading to Vietnam as of late, as Thailand is rocked by political instability and China becomes less attractive with rising wages. Increasing foreign capital could help Vietnam welcome a new era of productivity.

So no, it isn't only those 6 month millionaires that see it coming, it are also the companies that know much much more about the real situation in Thailand than anyone else on this forum.

Excellent post Berty. It has put this whole 'debate' in a better perspective. The dearth of investments cannot be blamed solely on the junta but they are the last sort of hitter a country needs in the bottom of the ninth with two outs.

[JSixpack]

Maybe the "social maturing" claim hasn't been specifically laid in this rather sad, perpetually inward looking thread

In which thread then? Looking forward to a laugh. Or did you just make that up out of the temptation to assert above-the-fray "global" vision over all the sad, perpetually inward looking antagonists here? Fun, innit?

. . . when has the very real and very visible changes in the overall Pattaya demographic not been a part of "changing"?

Well, duh. On some points, now, I do agree with TVF gospel. It holds, quite rightly, that the demographic stayed pretty stable for decades. There were even parking spaces in that Golden Era. Then most of us sad, perpetually inward looking antagonists here happened to notice an extraordinary and uncomfortably rapid influx of Russians, Chinese, Indians, and Bangkok Thais. We then found ourselves in traffic jams every weekend, esp. holiday weekends. Where for decades we sat, drank, and enjoyed watching mobs of Western tourists and mongers w/ hot Thai women parade on Walking Street, now we see continual processions of Chinese following flags.

And the reasons & consequences of THAT change have been subjected to countless analyses, which you may read at your leisure, now that you know the subtle point that not all changes are created equally.

So there's no tangible linkage between Pattaya's commercial 'churn', both foreign invested and home-grown, and the broader, global indications of overall negative growth?

Oh well, when has [sic] the very real and very visible changes in the overall Pattaya business environment not been a part of commercial churn? Pre-Central, mostly. But before that there was Tukcom, taking over that failed Day Night white elephant to cause frightful churn in the cheap T-shirt and trinket market. Was it merely a developer seeing an underserved market, and a market partly to be created, for IT-related stuff here? Or--was it something more darkly sinister, something clearly unsustainable: there was already a Tukcom in nearby Sriricha.

Tangible linkage? I dunno, but you see I know I dunno.

Obviously many of our ace TVF economists, with their brilliant records of previous forecasting (bless 'em), do wish to think so. We've never suffered any lack of negative indicators and DANGER, WILL ROBINSONs here, eh? And in the Pattaya Mail before that. And we've weathered financial crises before. Yeah I know: the coming apocalypse will be, like every low season, THE WORST EVER. Could be.

Problem lies in tendentious reasoning not based on any real financial numbers that prove the tangible linkage. All we got here is eyeballs seeing some podunk sell-by shops closing but never any opening up.

2010: Why Is Everything Closing Down?

But when our attention is called to those opening up, we gotta claim they're absolutely, definitely, certainly going to close--because we say so, from our astute reading of the "global" tea leaves. Or if we can't find any tea lives, then we invoke the TV Forum Poster Rule Of One: we already have one so the new one will fail cause we (I) don't need another one. Or we say there's not enough money here to support the new thing. Central would fail (if it didn't fall down first) because nobody could afford to shop there. Whatever.

Nor can any new shop EVER close and its space be taken by some other shop. If so, it's a sign; the prophecies are being fulfilled . . . .

All this desperation! Good laugh, though.

Given that lack of financial numbers proving causation, then one can just as well reason from local business factors without resorting to the totally awesome "broader, global indicators" to bolster one's TVF street cred. Now to me, to take one obvious example, the success of Central does seem tangibly linked to Chinese and Korean tourists (as stated in CPN's quarterly report last year, with the figures) and Bangkok Thais (whom ace TVF economists refuse to recognize as tourists--and Harbor will fail because Bangkok Thais can only shop in one place). And no--to anticipate TVF reasoning--nobody here knows how deep the Chinese slowdown will be, how long it will last, or whether it will make much of a difference at all in the number of Chinese tourists coming here. Read recently somewhere about the Russian numbers picking up again . . . .

So yeah I think I'll just stay calm for now and wait & see rather than emit orthodox Chicken Little squawks to play to the mob. Just have to suffer those terribly distressing claims by yer average TVF knee-jerk that I must be a real estate agent (our worst villain!) and wear rose-tinted glasses (which never gets old and is never shallow).

Funny, I totally agreed w/ Berty100 above that businesses were closing on Pattaya Nua but the reasons for their closing are obvious based on purely local business conditions. Surprising thing is that they hung on long as they did. But it seems there were two problems: first, I wasn't scared; second, I didn't go all global about it.

I think the rule now is that every time some podunk mobile phone shop in Pattaya like, closes, then we gotta invoke the Financial Times, The Economist, and Bloomberg. Otherwise--well, you know . . . .

Edited June 6, 2016 by JSixpack

[Lannig]

(...)

Just recently a major foreign business left the country, it's name was Casino

(...)

While I find Berty100's post quite right and well-informed, this particular case might not be that relevant to the situation in Thailand.

Big C was a quite profitable business, however the French company Casino is in such poor shape and in desperate need for cash that they've decided to sell this asset to keep the whole company from diving too much in the red.

See e.g. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-casino-m-a-central-idUSKCN0XQ0W7

[Rimmer]

Troll post/slur removed

EDIT

And now an off topic post and all the replies

[NanLaew]

(...)

Just recently a major foreign business left the country, it's name was Casino

(...)

While I find Berty100's post quite right and well-informed, this particular case might not be that relevant to the situation in Thailand.

Big C was a quite profitable business, however the French company Casino is in such poor shape and in desperate need for cash that they've decided to sell this asset to keep the whole company from diving too much in the red.

See e.g. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-casino-m-a-central-idUSKCN0XQ0W7

And don't forget that Tesco have been telegraphing their plans to pull the pin on their hugely loss-making supermarket business in LOS.

Now that's the largest and second-largest Thai supermarket chains being kicked into touch by their foreign investors.

I'm so sublimely confident, I think I'm going to have a serious gander at the Pattaya condo market. I heard there's a real killing to be made there.