Should Corbyn Quit or Be Pushed, as Leader of the UK Labour Party ?

[dick dasterdly]

Does anyone care about the machinations of the political parties?

 

As far as I can make out - those supporting the Conservative party want Corbyn to remain - and the Labour party membership also want him to remain.  On the other hand Labour MPs want him to leave?

 

Knowing pretty much nothing about it, I gather Corbyn supports 'old school' Labour values?

[NoshowJones]

The late Michael Meacher was a leftwing Labour MP, he left 5 million GBP in his will.

Where did a working mans MP manage to get 5 million GBP?

Labour, the party of the working class.

[Ricardo]

14 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Does anyone care about the machinations of the political parties?

 

As far as I can make out - those supporting the Conservative party want Corbyn to remain - and the Labour party membership also want him to remain.  On the other hand Labour MPs want him to leave?

 

Knowing pretty much nothing about it, I gather Corbyn supports 'old school' Labour values?

 

Yes, he appears (from afar) to be an un-reconstructed Old-Labour MP, from the back-benches.  The sort who sometimes say things which need saying, like Tony Benn or Dennis Skinner, but not necessarily the sort you'd expect or vote for as party-leader or PM ? Purely my own view.

 

I'm sure the Cons want him to remain, they think that it will make winning the next election a lot easier for them, reminding older voters of the 'good old days' which they don't want to return. 

 

His own MPs, who understand (and have a personal stake in) getting-elected, also view him as unsuitable to be a candidate for PM, as evidenced by the vote of no-confidence.  They've worked with him, and seen his campaigning-skills during the Brexit-campaign, and think that he can't win  ...  no matter how much he appeals to the wave of young new party-members.

 

Why does it matter, IMO because the system requires a halfway-credible Opposition, to keep the government more-honest. That's the way it's set up, agree with it or not as you will, and UKIP or the Lib-Dems or the SNP are less-able to do this than the Labour Party.

[Ricardo]

Jermey Corbyn's number-two supporter views Richard Branson's actions last week, defending his company Virgin Trains during the 'traingate' affair, as a political-attack on his leader, which should be punished !  Shades of 1984, or Stalinist Russia, perhaps ?

 

"British tycoon Sir Richard Branson is a "tax exile" and should be stripped of his knighthood, shadow chancellor John McDonnell has suggested.  Mr McDonnell told the Sunday Mirror Sir Richard wanted to "undermine" democracy, after a row over Jeremy Corbyn's journey on a Virgin train."

 

and  " He singled out Sir Richard, calling him a "tax exile who thinks he can try and intervene and undermine our democracy". "

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37208527

[jayboy]

12 hours ago, possum1931 said:

The late Michael Meacher was a leftwing Labour MP, he left 5 million GBP in his will.

Where did a working mans MP manage to get 5 million GBP?

Labour, the party of the working class.

 

I don't really think his wealth is relevant one way or the other.Tony Benn - in my view a deluded incompetent though dribbled over ecstatically by left wingers - left a huge fortune and what is more carefully managed his tax affairs to minimise death duties.I have to agree Meacher was an absurd figure nonetheless.He once sued a journalist who had described him as a toff.Meacher maintained his father was an agricultural labourer.In fact his father was an accountant who had retired to a farm management position.Meacher (public school and Oxford) wealth consisted of a large property portfolio.

 

 

In response to an earlier post it was stunning to see some genius suggest that Corbyn would be the best PM since Clement Attlee.Attlee would have despised Corbyn and was ruthless in eliminating such half witted ideologues not out of hatred but because they jeopardized a Labour Government working for a better society.Of course left wing radicals under Attlee generally had the advantage of first class intellects.A little commented characteristic of Corbyn is his thickness, simply not up to deal with detailed issues.

 

Attlee was a great man - solidly middle class and of a tremendous integrity, a patriot and a visionary - yet very practical.

 

Once asked why he didn't use an official car to take him the couple of miles from the railway station to his home, he replied that would not be an appropriate use of public funds.Thus every evening the Prime Minister trudged home with other commuters clutching his briefcase.I find that rather moving - and not just because of the contrast with today's fatcats.

[emilymat]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

I don't really think his wealth is relevant one way or the other.Tony Benn - in my view a deluded incompetent though dribbled over ecstatically by left wingers - left a huge fortune and what is more carefully managed his tax affairs to minimise death duties.I have to agree Meacher was an absurd figure nonetheless.He once sued a journalist who had described him as a toff.Meacher maintained his father was an agricultural labourer.In fact his father was an accountant who had retired to a farm management position.Meacher (public school and Oxford) wealth consisted of a large property portfolio.

 

 

In response to an earlier post it was stunning to see some genius suggest that Corbyn would be the best PM since Clement Attlee.Attlee would have despised Corbyn and was ruthless in eliminating such half witted ideologues not out of hatred but because they jeopardized a Labour Government working for a better society.Of course left wing radicals under Attlee generally had the advantage of first class intellects.A little commented characteristic of Corbyn is his thickness, simply not up to deal with detailed issues.

 

Attlee was a great man - solidly middle class and of a tremendous integrity, a patriot and a visionary - yet very practical.

 

Once asked why he didn't use an official car to take him the couple of miles from the railway station to his home, he replied that would not be an appropriate use of public funds.Thus every evening the Prime Minister trudged home with other commuters clutching his briefcase.I find that rather moving - and not just because of the contrast with today's fatcats.

Good post about Atlee.  He is often overlooked.

 

Remember what Churchill said about him during the 45 election.

 

"A modest little man, with plenty to be modest about"   How wrong was he!  I seem to recall Atlee went to Buckingham Palace to see the King  in his Standard 8 -driving himself. At the time, some of the Labour top people were trying to stab him in the back  and replace him. So, I guess it was better for him to nip over to Buck house and get the King's go ahead to form a government. How the world has changed!     

[jayboy]

12 minutes ago, emilymat said:

Good post about Atlee.  He is often overlooked.

 

Remember what Churchill said about him during the 45 election.

 

"A modest little man, with plenty to be modest about"   How wrong was he!  I seem to recall Atlee went to Buckingham Palace to see the King  in his Standard 8 -driving himself. At the time, some of the Labour top people were trying to stab him in the back  and replace him. So, I guess it was better for him to nip over to Buck house and get the King's go ahead to form a government. How the world has changed!     

 

 

Attlee wrote this limerick towards the end of his life.Looks like he got the last laugh.

 

“Few thought he was even a starter;
There were many who thought themselves smarter,
But he ended a PM
CH and OM
An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[Ricardo]

Former shadow-chancellor Ed Balls, who lost his seat to a Conservative at the last election, has described JC's Labour leadership style as "a leftist utopian fantasy", in a new autobiography.

 

"Refusing to listen to the electorate has never been a winning formula," Mr Balls writes, "any more than Jeremy Corbyn thinking the volume of the cheering from your core supporters is a reliable guide to wider public opinion."

 

In response  " A pro-Corbyn source said the general election proved Mr Balls was "out of step with the British people". " and also  " The pro-Corbyn source told the BBC: "Ed should concentrate more on his Paso Doble, as the general election proved that when it comes to politics he is out of step with the British people." 

 

Way to encourage unity, guys !

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37211591

[dick dasterdly]

8 hours ago, Ricardo said:

 

Yes, he appears (from afar) to be an un-reconstructed Old-Labour MP, from the back-benches.  The sort who sometimes say things which need saying, like Tony Benn or Dennis Skinner, but not necessarily the sort you'd expect or vote for as party-leader or PM ? Purely my own view.

 

I'm sure the Cons want him to remain, they think that it will make winning the next election a lot easier for them, reminding older voters of the 'good old days' which they don't want to return. 

 

His own MPs, who understand (and have a personal stake in) getting-elected, also view him as unsuitable to be a candidate for PM, as evidenced by the vote of no-confidence.  They've worked with him, and seen his campaigning-skills during the Brexit-campaign, and think that he can't win  ...  no matter how much he appeals to the wave of young new party-members.

 

Why does it matter, IMO because the system requires a halfway-credible Opposition, to keep the government more-honest. That's the way it's set up, agree with it or not as you will, and UKIP or the Lib-Dems or the SNP are less-able to do this than the Labour Party.

Which is why I would like to see Corbyn stand for election as an 'old school' Labourite.

 

At the moment the only choice is pretty much the Conservatives and New Labour MPs - and they're pretty much the same.

 

Is the voting electorate turning more left-wing?  The only way we'll find out is if an 'old Labour' politician is allowed to stand for election.

 

The electorate has already thumbed its nose at politicians - ala the brexit vote.  Which is why I'd be interested to find out whether an old school Labour supporter is still un-electable.

[emilymat]

Dick - The only problem with your post 163 is that to find out would probably condemn the electorate to another 5 years  of conservatives. It's not as though we could say "Whoops, we got that wrong, can we have another go?"

[jayboy]

Which is why I would like to see Corbyn stand for election as an 'old school' Labourite.

 

At the moment the only choice is pretty much the Conservatives and New Labour MPs - and they're pretty much the same.

 

Is the voting electorate turning more left-wing?  The only way we'll find out is if an 'old Labour' politician is allowed to stand for election.

 

The electorate has already thumbed its nose at politicians - ala the brexit vote.  Which is why I'd be interested to find out whether an old school Labour supporter is still un-electable.

But we will find out at the next General Election when Corbyn will be Labour leader.I think there's little doubt he will win the forthcoming party contest.More generally he has very strong support across the country among the vocal though not that keen on voting 18 - 30 age group.

So barring some unforeseen problem (eg his death) it will be a May/ Corbyn contest.If May against her stated policy holds an early poll I predict a bloody massacre of Labour (120 seats ?) and a complete restructuring of politics.

What the left seems to have forgotten is that Britain and England in particular is a very middle class place.Tony Blair (an election winning genius) kept on winning because he knew this and retained the centre ground.

I think many Corbynites dont really

want to win power.They want to make a statement.

[dick dasterdly]

17 hours ago, emilymat said:

Dick - The only problem with your post 163 is that to find out would probably condemn the electorate to another 5 years  of conservatives. It's not as though we could say "Whoops, we got that wrong, can we have another go?"

Is there much difference between the Conservatives and New Labour?

 

I think not, which is why it would be interesting to see how Corbyn fared in a General Election if his 'platform' was old Labour.

 

Jayboy is right in that the electorate have voted conservatively for a long time now, but is 'the mood' changing?  I wonder as a large percentage of the population voted against the advice of their MPs - which resulted in the Brexit vote.

[Ricardo]

The Labour Party has to survive, as a single entity, until the next general-election before that can properly be tested. A few by-elections in the next six months might be some guide ? Any possible split would be an interesting thread in several months' time !

 

I agree that it will be interesting to see how a more-left-leaning Labour performs, I suspect not very well, unless Corbyn has campaigning-skills which he didn't display during the Brexit-campaign. But I was wrong about the outcome of the Brexit-vote, and certainly expect to be wrong again !

 

For myself personally, it would depend on whether they can convince enough voters that their wonderful just-society & generous-policies can really be funded, and I'd remember that they're starting from a large deficit inherited from the Tories. A sensible socialist-platform would IMO appeal better than a really-left-wing one ?

 

I also have my doubts that they can regain the block of Scottish-MPs, which have been lost to the SNP.  Without those seats, they have an even-bigger mountain to climb, to reach power again  ...  which is why I thought Corbyn's ruling-out of any pact with the SNP was quite odd.  If he meant it, of course.

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

The Labour Party has to survive, as a single entity, until the next general-election before that can properly be tested. A few by-elections in the next six months might be some guide ? Any possible split would be an interesting thread in several months' time !

 

I agree that it will be interesting to see how a more-left-leaning Labour performs, I suspect not very well, unless Corbyn has campaigning-skills which he didn't display during the Brexit-campaign. But I was wrong about the outcome of the Brexit-vote, and certainly expect to be wrong again !

 

For myself personally, it would depend on whether they can convince enough voters that their wonderful just-society & generous-policies can really be funded, and I'd remember that they're starting from a large deficit inherited from the Tories. A sensible socialist-platform would IMO appeal better than a really-left-wing one ?

 

I also have my doubts that they can regain the block of Scottish-MPs, which have been lost to the SNP.  Without those seats, they have an even-bigger mountain to climb, to reach power again  ...  which is why I thought Corbyn's ruling-out of any pact with the SNP was quite odd.  If he meant it, of course.

Of course the Labour party has to survive as a single entity - but I'm not convinced that New Labour is any different to the Conservative party.  Which is why I would like to see a choice for 'old' Labour at the next General Election.

 

Like you, I've no idea how an old Labour leader would fare at the next election - but I'd love to find out!

[emilymat]

On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 7:47 PM, jayboy said:

But we will find out at the next General Election when Corbyn will be Labour leader.I think there's little doubt he will win the forthcoming party contest.More generally he has very strong support across the country among the vocal though not that keen on voting 18 - 30 age group.

So barring some unforeseen problem (eg his death) it will be a May/ Corbyn contest.If May against her stated policy holds an early poll I predict a bloody massacre of Labour (120 seats ?) and a complete restructuring of politics.

What the left seems to have forgotten is that Britain and England in particular is a very middle class place.Tony Blair (an election winning genius) kept on winning because he knew this and retained the centre ground.

I think many Corbynites dont really

want to win power.They want to make a statement.

 

 

Add into the melting pot (should the GE be in 2020) the boundary commision reforms, then the massacre could be even greater.

 

Teresa May has a problem though. She appears to have ruled out an early election or parliamentary vote on Brexit. I think her 'honeymoon' will be short lived. It might be a cunning plan by her to 'force her hand' if there are eruptions in Parliament abou being denied a vote.  She might want then to go to the country on the basis of 'who's in charge here'. The last PM to do this was Ted Heath with the miners and the electorate said 'Not you, mate". That's the danger.

 

I would have a bit more respect for May if she had come down on the Brexit side in the referendum. She sems so keen now. In any event, whatever the circumstances, in my view labour cannot have any chance at the next election if JC is still in the leader position.

[jayboy]

18 minutes ago, emilymat said:

 

 

Add into the melting pot (should the GE be in 2020) the boundary commision reforms, then the massacre could be even greater.

 

Teresa May has a problem though. She appears to have ruled out an early election or parliamentary vote on Brexit. I think her 'honeymoon' will be short lived. It might be a cunning plan by her to 'force her hand' if there are eruptions in Parliament abou being denied a vote.  She might want then to go to the country on the basis of 'who's in charge here'. The last PM to do this was Ted Heath with the miners and the electorate said 'Not you, mate". That's the danger.

 

I would have a bit more respect for May if she had come down on the Brexit side in the referendum. She sems so keen now. In any event, whatever the circumstances, in my view labour cannot have any chance at the next election if JC is still in the leader position.

 

Good point about the boundary reforms which will benefit the Tories.Worth noting though the lefties will scream that these are transparent, fair and not politicised.

 

Yes May ruled out early elections but the temptation to go to the country must be huge.Heath precedent noted but if the decision can be based on Parliament's resistance to the wish of the people, that is unlikely to rebound on May.I agree the honeymoon period will be short.I think that May's position is that while a Remainer she feels the Brexit decision has to be respected and enforced. 

[Ricardo]

JC promises GBP 30-billion for the South-East, in a hustings-speech at Ramsgate  ...  there's nobody more free-spending than a politician who needs your votes, is there ?

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-37266208

[Ricardo]

Jeremy Corbyn is to propose that the Shadow Cabinet members should be elected directly by the party members  ...

 

"Jeremy Corbyn is set to call for Labour Party members to be allowed to elect MPs to the shadow cabinet.  The Labour leader's allies also floated the idea of allowing party conference to have a say over front bench membership."

 

"BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said Mr Corbyn's proposals were likely to annoy critical Labour MPs, who are fearful it would further strengthen the leader's grip on the party, "

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37275245

 

Meanwhile the Labour MPs will be voting today, on a motion that they should elect them  ...

 

"Labour MPs are to vote on Tuesday on a proposal to allow them to elect members of the shadow cabinet.  MP Clive Betts has suggested the change as a "pragmatic" way of making different factions in the party "work together", denying it is an attempt to "hobble" Jeremy Corbyn's leadership."

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37281441

 

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, Ricardo said:

Jeremy Corbyn is to propose that the Shadow Cabinet members should be elected directly by the party members  ...

 

"Jeremy Corbyn is set to call for Labour Party members to be allowed to elect MPs to the shadow cabinet.  The Labour leader's allies also floated the idea of allowing party conference to have a say over front bench membership."

 

"BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said Mr Corbyn's proposals were likely to annoy critical Labour MPs, who are fearful it would further strengthen the leader's grip on the party, "

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37275245

 

Meanwhile the Labour MPs will be voting today, on a motion that they should elect them  ...

 

"Labour MPs are to vote on Tuesday on a proposal to allow them to elect members of the shadow cabinet.  MP Clive Betts has suggested the change as a "pragmatic" way of making different factions in the party "work together", denying it is an attempt to "hobble" Jeremy Corbyn's leadership."

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37281441

 

Showing my ignorance here , as I'd always assumed that cabinet/shadow cabinet members were appointed by the PM (or in the case of other political parties, the leaders of the parties).

[Ricardo]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Showing my ignorance here , as I'd always assumed that cabinet/shadow cabinet members were appointed by the PM (or in the case of other political parties, the leaders of the parties).

 

That's the way it currently works, Jeremy chooses his shadow-cabinet colleagues, rather than having them imposed upon him by the Party or his fellow-MPs.

 

But for some reason he doesn't want to continue to do things that way ?  Not my idea of leadership !

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

27 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

That's the way it currently works, Jeremy chooses his shadow-cabinet colleagues, rather than having them imposed upon him by the Party or his fellow-MPs.

 

But for some reason he doesn't want to continue to do things that way ?  Not my idea of leadership !

 

 

You're ignoring my point.

 

I thought the leader of the party appointed the cabinet?

 

But perhaps this is only the case with the Conservative party?

[dick dasterdly]

Actually, I'm a bit tired of you trying to find the slightest excuse to put Corbyn down - for no reason at all.

 

Come up with a good reason e.g the electorate hate him.

 

Which is why after the entirely unexepected Brexit result - I will be interested to see how Corbyn fares in a General Election.

[nausea]

Well he could turn British politics around, if he gets rid of his Parliamentary colleagues and puts ordinary people into Parliament. The big question is would ordinary people vote for them. But given it's mostly about the party machine I can see it happening. British people are on an anti-immigration, pro-NHS stance at the moment. If the Consevatives muck up  Brexit anything is possible.

 

[emilymat]

I watched JC at both PMQ's and on Question Time (BBC1 Thurs). I was pretty depressed about how dealt with these important occasions.

 

Now, I know housing is a crucial issue in the UK, but JC had 5 questions he could put to the PM and, whislt I accept he felt leading on housing was important, you would have thought he would have challenged TM at least once on her Brexit view - or apparant lack of it. This of course he left to the SNP, who are now looking more and more like an oppsition in the house.

 

She (TM) is clearly a bag of nerves in her new job and very wooden in her responses.

 

On Question Time,  the impression again was of a 'parish pump' polititian, rather than the statesman- like appoach  that is needed for us to get a Labour PM.  It's no good, for example, simply hankering after the CND approach of the 60's.  many of his new members may not even remember 9/11 or the fall of the Berlin Wall, let alone how futile unilateral dis-armament (in order to get Russia/USA/NK/Ind/Pak/France to follow such a principled action) can be..

 

As for him being 'mobbed' by his supporters afterwards, it was clearly a stunt arranged by the Asian extraction members of the audience. You could see it clearly. Now that's not racist, they are obviously British citizens. However, if a large percentage of the huge numbers of 'new' members are from racial minorities, then I don't think many of them understand how politics works here. We may not like it, but to change anything you have to get power. To get power you have to persuade a sizeable chunk of the UK electorate that the 'leader' of the party they vote for will make a good PM.

 

That's the problem.  "Confronting the Tories" cannot be the single mantra, but it's a good, safe,  soundbite.

 

 

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, emilymat said:

I watched JC at both PMQ's and on Question Time (BBC1 Thurs). I was pretty depressed about how dealt with these important occasions.

 

Now, I know housing is a crucial issue in the UK, but JC had 5 questions he could put to the PM and, whislt I accept he felt leading on housing was important, you would have thought he would have challenged TM at least once on her Brexit view - or apparant lack of it. This of course he left to the SNP, who are now looking more and more like an oppsition in the house.

 

She (TM) is clearly a bag of nerves in her new job and very wooden in her responses.

 

On Question Time,  the impression again was of a 'parish pump' polititian, rather than the statesman- like appoach  that is needed for us to get a Labour PM.  It's no good, for example, simply hankering after the CND approach of the 60's.  many of his new members may not even remember 9/11 or the fall of the Berlin Wall, let alone how futile unilateral dis-armament (in order to get Russia/USA/NK/Ind/Pak/France to follow such a principled action) can be..

 

As for him being 'mobbed' by his supporters afterwards, it was clearly a stunt arranged by the Asian extraction members of the audience. You could see it clearly. Now that's not racist, they are obviously British citizens. However, if a large percentage of the huge numbers of 'new' members are from racial minorities, then I don't think many of them understand how politics works here. We may not like it, but to change anything you have to get power. To get power you have to persuade a sizeable chunk of the UK electorate that the 'leader' of the party they vote for will make a good PM.

 

That's the problem.  "Confronting the Tories" cannot be the single mantra, but it's a good, safe,  soundbite.

 

 

I watched 'Question Time' as well and you are 100% right what you said, and as much as I dislike JC, I thought he wiped the floor with OS.

[dick dasterdly]

On 9/6/2016 at 5:18 PM, dick dasterdly said:

Actually, I'm a bit tired of you trying to find the slightest excuse to put Corbyn down - for no reason at all.

 

Come up with a good reason e.g the electorate hate him.

 

Which is why after the entirely unexepected Brexit result - I will be interested to see how Corbyn fares in a General Election.

Sorry Ricardo.

 

I (belatedly ) apologise for this post.

[Ricardo]

Just returned from Brexit-Land, JC won the leadership-election, in case anyone hadn't heard.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37461219

[Ricardo]

On 10/09/2016 at 1:06 PM, dick dasterdly said:

Sorry Ricardo.

 

I (belatedly ) apologise for this post.

 

No problem, we're all entitled to an opinion, and I'm up-front that I'm not a Labour Party member. I wasn't posting because I've been away & offline for three weeks, no offence was taken !

 

But I do think it's important that the system has a credible Opposition, to the Tories, which is why this was an important story IMO. The last time the party had a split, like the one I see now, it led the the breakaway Social Democrats, which I don't think was good for the movement ?

 

If we have JC-supporters, loyal-but-not-JC-supporter Labour Party members, and people like myself, all posting on this thread, then I think it makes it balanced ? Which is as it should be.