Condo Managers being real estate agents, a conficlt of interest.

[Henryford]

From our experience the best way is to nominate for the committee and get involved if this is not possible find out who is on the committee and talk to them about any concerns. Obviously you cant do this until you are an owner, but if you find a condo you do like, ask the questions about the management, ask for copy of last AGM minutes, financial reports etc (in our complex a summary of the finances are posted on the notice board) and the condition report if they have one so you can see how proactive they are on preventative maintenance etc. I would also ask about the sinking fund. With the AGM minutes our managers also supply report on occupancy showing those that are vacant, owner occupied and those rented - this may be useful when purchasing so that you can get a feel on the occupancy dynamics.

We are not currently on our committee as we are not living full time in Thailand at the moment but we do keep in contact with two of the English speaking members and meet with them when we are in town (we now have a good mix on our committee who in recent years have started to pro actively manage the managers (from observation if managers are left to their own devices they will do very little). Our Committee meet with the managers on a regular basis.

Agree that the staff can be lazy if allowed, just sit in the little office all day (most of the time on the internet)

I don't think it is a bad thing if the management staff show perspective tenants/purchasers around and maybe get paid some of the commission as long as it does not affect the day to day running of the complex. A complex seems to run better if people actually live there rather than all the condos just being left empty. Though I am not sure how you manage the fraud potential as mentioned in previous posts.

You mention that your condo managers give a report on occupancy. How would the condo managers know that information ? As an owner, i dont need to tell them if its empty, occupied, or rented out via an agent down the road.

Yes you do, copies of passports of all residents need to be given to the office. Look at the recent story in Phuket and the penalty for illegal rentals.

[Peterw42]

From our experience the best way is to nominate for the committee and get involved if this is not possible find out who is on the committee and talk to them about any concerns. Obviously you cant do this until you are an owner, but if you find a condo you do like, ask the questions about the management, ask for copy of last AGM minutes, financial reports etc (in our complex a summary of the finances are posted on the notice board) and the condition report if they have one so you can see how proactive they are on preventative maintenance etc. I would also ask about the sinking fund. With the AGM minutes our managers also supply report on occupancy showing those that are vacant, owner occupied and those rented - this may be useful when purchasing so that you can get a feel on the occupancy dynamics.

We are not currently on our committee as we are not living full time in Thailand at the moment but we do keep in contact with two of the English speaking members and meet with them when we are in town (we now have a good mix on our committee who in recent years have started to pro actively manage the managers (from observation if managers are left to their own devices they will do very little). Our Committee meet with the managers on a regular basis.

Agree that the staff can be lazy if allowed, just sit in the little office all day (most of the time on the internet)

I don't think it is a bad thing if the management staff show perspective tenants/purchasers around and maybe get paid some of the commission as long as it does not affect the day to day running of the complex. A complex seems to run better if people actually live there rather than all the condos just being left empty. Though I am not sure how you manage the fraud potential as mentioned in previous posts.

You mention that your condo managers give a report on occupancy. How would the condo managers know that information ? As an owner, i dont need to tell them if its empty, occupied, or rented out via an agent down the road.

Yes you do, copies of passports of all residents need to be given to the office. Look at the recent story in Phuket and the penalty for illegal rentals.

I think the phuket issue was more about short term rentals, less than a month. unless you are actually a hotel, it not legal to rent by the day.

Are you saying that the condo office is the house master, responsible for reporting aliens in residence, to immigration ? I thought that would be my responsibility as the owner, or the rental agent I am using.

[Peterw42]

My condo office is forbidden to take part in condo sales/rents. It is up to the Committee to ensure the office/management work on condo issues alone. If they don't in these condos it sounds like they need a new committee.

I think the point many are making, is that a good chance the committee is involved.

[Seizetheday]

I'm only guessing but I would have thought a turnover of 10% is a bit high.

I believe when the condo managers sell a condo the commission should be going into the condo bank account not their personal account. How it's policed I wouldn't know.

If you believe the commissions go into the condo acc you must still believe in Santa. I'm not being rude but that statement just made me lol.

You obviously haven't been in Thailand long, not everyone is corrupt.

[jippytum]

One of the problems with consulting the committee about this is the' fox is in the hen house ' .Many multiple owners are committee members to oversee their investment .The law allows a minimum of three and max eight committee members .Owners or spouse with multiple units are allowed three votes max at the AGM and due to apathy from other owners easily get elected.

[KittenKong]

You obviously haven't been in Thailand long, not everyone is corrupt.

No one is suggesting that everyone here is corrupt, just that many are (regardless of skin colour).

I personally would not trust anyone who was involved with any sort of business here. I may deal with them because I have no real choice, but I would never assume that they are honest or that they will perform their task correctly without being monitored constantly. In fact I would assume the opposite.

In the west I could be fairly confident that most people are honest, or that the law would protect me to a great extent if they aren't. That simply does not apply here.

[KittenKong]

One of the problems with consulting the committee about this is the' fox is in the hen house ' .Many multiple owners are committee members to oversee their investment .

Can't argue with that.

The law allows a minimum of three and max eight committee members .

That's 9, not 8.

Owners or spouse with multiple units are allowed three votes max at the AGM and due to apathy from other owners easily get elected.

Not quite. Any owner is entitled to the vote for each unit he owns. However no single person (real or juristic) may have a voting ratio exceeding that of all other co-owners combined (ie no one may cast more than 50% of the votes). Unsurprisingly, this being Thailand there are fairly simple ways to bypass this rule: divide your 60% holding into two distinct ownership structures, for example.

Proxy holders may only hold votes for three other persons.

Apathy at AGMs/EGMs, and general laziness/stupidity/greed/dishonesty on the part of co-owners is indeed the main cause of condo management problems here.

[smutcakes]

My condo office is forbidden to take part in condo sales/rents. It is up to the Committee to ensure the office/management work on condo issues alone. If they don't in these condos it sounds like they need a new committee.

I think the point many are making, is that a good chance the committee is involved.

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

[Delight]

My condo office is forbidden to take part in condo sales/rents. It is up to the Committee to ensure the office/management work on condo issues alone. If they don't in these condos it sounds like they need a new committee.

I think the point many are making, is that a good chance the committee is involved.

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

Well Said !

Very well said ! !

[KittenKong]

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

Perhaps you are blind or lucky, and perhaps I am very perceptive or unlucky.

Either way, there have been many examples on here and elsewhere of corruption, theft and general illegality in condo management. The level of it isn't important as far I'm concerned. A thief is a thief whether he steals 10B or 10MB, or whether he takes a kickback of 100B or 100kB.

[smutcakes]

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

Perhaps you are blind or lucky, and perhaps I am very perceptive or unlucky.

Either way, there have been many examples on here and elsewhere of corruption, theft and general illegality in condo management. The level of it isn't important as far I'm concerned. A thief is a thief whether he steals 10B or 10MB, or whether he takes a kickback of 100B or 100kB.

No, we have examples of what people think might be happening, or suspect something might be happening. We do however have many examples of people clearly misunderstanding the laws of condominiums' as well as the roles of Committee's, JPM's and management companies.

Many problems and percieved issues within condominiums are caused by poor knowledge of the Co-owners on how the Condominium is run, and Co-owners with no understanding running around an spreading half truths and lies about what is happening.

[Delight]

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

Perhaps you are blind or lucky, and perhaps I am very perceptive or unlucky.

Either way, there have been many examples on here and elsewhere of corruption, theft and general illegality in condo management. The level of it isn't important as far I'm concerned. A thief is a thief whether he steals 10B or 10MB, or whether he takes a kickback of 100B or 100kB.

No, we have examples of what people think might be happening, or suspect something might be happening. We do however have many examples of people clearly misunderstanding the laws of condominiums' as well as the roles of Committee's, JPM's and management companies.

Many problems and percieved issues within condominiums are caused by poor knowledge of the Co-owners on how the Condominium is run, and Co-owners with no understanding running around an spreading half truths and lies about what is happening.

Well Said !

Very well said ! !

[KittenKong]

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

Perhaps you are blind or lucky, and perhaps I am very perceptive or unlucky.

Either way, there have been many examples on here and elsewhere of corruption, theft and general illegality in condo management. The level of it isn't important as far I'm concerned. A thief is a thief whether he steals 10B or 10MB, or whether he takes a kickback of 100B or 100kB.

No, we have examples of what people think might be happening, or suspect something might be happening. We do however have many examples of people clearly misunderstanding the laws of condominiums' as well as the roles of Committee's, JPM's and management companies.

Many problems and percieved issues within condominiums are caused by poor knowledge of the Co-owners on how the Condominium is run, and Co-owners with no understanding running around an spreading half truths and lies about what is happening.

Looks like some people really do wear rose-tinted spectacles. I wonder why?

[smutcakes]

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

Perhaps you are blind or lucky, and perhaps I am very perceptive or unlucky.

Either way, there have been many examples on here and elsewhere of corruption, theft and general illegality in condo management. The level of it isn't important as far I'm concerned. A thief is a thief whether he steals 10B or 10MB, or whether he takes a kickback of 100B or 100kB.

No, we have examples of what people think might be happening, or suspect something might be happening. We do however have many examples of people clearly misunderstanding the laws of condominiums' as well as the roles of Committee's, JPM's and management companies.

Many problems and percieved issues within condominiums are caused by poor knowledge of the Co-owners on how the Condominium is run, and Co-owners with no understanding running around an spreading half truths and lies about what is happening.

Looks like some people really do wear rose-tinted spectacles. I wonder why?

I am speaking as someone with no vested interest in the industry anymore.

However i have been involved on the service provider side and as a Co-owner and have attended up to 1000 Committee Meeting's, and probably close to 100 AGM/EGM's over a period covering both the old and introduction of the New Act, and there are few situations/scams/issues i have not seen or had involvement in over the years.

Yes there is going to be some scams as in all things here, but the vast vast majority of management staff, JPM and committee members are honest persons trying to do their best, albeit sometimes their best is not very impressive. You need to understand the limitations that the management staff work with as well.

You are speaking from a position of one person, who presumably has negative experience in your building, yet with your limited knowledge and experience on every sinlge thread you tar the whole industry and everyone in it as corrupt and incompetent, which is quite simply untrue.

[Peterw42]

There is not a "good chance' the Committee is involved.

As part of my work, over the past 10 years i have dealt with maybe 50 Condo's new and old, predominantly in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and to a lesser extent Hua Hin.

I have seen lots of incompetence from Management, Committee and JPM, and some dodgy practices. I have seen many clueless Committee members and a small handful who perhaps tried to turn things their way by letting units, or getting other benefits off their position. I have never seen out and out corruption whereby the Committee member would clearly be taking commissions etc

Bad practices are far more evident in holiday areas like Phuket and Pattaya than Bangkok and generally the level of Committee Members there is far lower than in Bangkok.

Yes there is corruption in Condo management, most of it low level as is the way with everything in Thai business, but it is no way as bad or widespread as what Kittenkong makes out on every single on of these topics.

Perhaps you are blind or lucky, and perhaps I am very perceptive or unlucky.

Either way, there have been many examples on here and elsewhere of corruption, theft and general illegality in condo management. The level of it isn't important as far I'm concerned. A thief is a thief whether he steals 10B or 10MB, or whether he takes a kickback of 100B or 100kB.

No, we have examples of what people think might be happening, or suspect something might be happening. We do however have many examples of people clearly misunderstanding the laws of condominiums' as well as the roles of Committee's, JPM's and management companies.

Many problems and percieved issues within condominiums are caused by poor knowledge of the Co-owners on how the Condominium is run, and Co-owners with no understanding running around an spreading half truths and lies about what is happening.

Looks like some people really do wear rose-tinted spectacles. I wonder why?

If all these commissions are indeed being put into the condo bank accounts. Some condo complexes must have very healthy bank accounts.

I will certainly be checking the audited accounts next time they are released. I will expect to see an entry that says "incoming funds from sales commisions"

I cant wait to see what santa brings me this year, lol

[KittenKong]

However i have been involved on the service provider side and as a Co-owner and have attended up to 1000 Committee Meeting's, and probably close to 100 AGM/EGM's over a period covering both the old and introduction of the New Act, and there are few situations/scams/issues i have not seen or had involvement in over the years.

Yes there is going to be some scams as in all things here, but the vast vast majority of management staff, JPM and committee members are honest persons trying to do their best, albeit sometimes their best is not very impressive. You need to understand the limitations that the management staff work with as well.

You are speaking from a position of one person, who presumably has negative experience in your building, yet with your limited knowledge and experience on every sinlge thread you tar the whole industry and everyone in it as corrupt and incompetent, which is quite simply untrue.

Like me you seem to be saying that there are many scams and much incompetence, but you also seem to be an apologist for the incompetent and dishonest.

Personally I fail to see why idiots and thieves should be treated as anything more than idiots and thieves. The excuse of being Thai simply doesn't cut it with me. I wonder if you would be so accepting of an incompetent Thai doctor who misdiagnosed you and treated you incorrectly? Or a Thai car mechanic who fitted worn-out brake pads to your car in order to steal the new ones? Both have been reported here also.

As for my own comments, I have never said that all condo management here is dishonest or incompetent: just that incompetence and dishonesty are widespread here (in all fields) and I stand by that. You appear to agree with me. It certainly is many times more extensive than any similar corruption or incompetence that one would be likely to find in the West, and incompetent and dishonest people of all nationalities here seem to be able to carry on with complete impunity for years (hiding behind the defamation laws, perhaps, and a generally weak legal system). I neither know nor care why that is so, I just know that it is so.

If it isn't so in your buildings then you are lucky, as I mentioned. Plenty of other people here are not so lucky.

[blackcab]

Kittenkong -Just how many condos have you lived in ?

What does that have to do with anything?

Your statements can only be valid with first hand knowledge of life in several condos

Given that you have lived in say only 2 condos then I would say that you are talking nonsense

If ,on the other hand ,you have lived in say 10 condos then your commments are valid and are worthy of respect

So which is it?

There are other ways to gain knowledge. What about foreigners who have work permits to be estate agents?

[KhonKaenKowboy]

I would pick my battles carefully. Some places, property managers have to have real estate licenses. <any larger complexes have onsite agents...who often rent space. I've even sen a mortgage broker with a desk in the HOA office. Showing units is a service to the people they serve..the owners. It also gives them incentive to fix obvious problems, They all do "side jobs." Cleaning, security, and maintenance...referral fees are common. I trust mine with an extra key.. Could save me from financial ruin, if they were able to stop a big water leak or fire while I was away. Throw them a bone..I would be more worried about the ones who make 9000 per month and don't make any on the side...they might just be stealing it..