From London, with love: tens of thousands rally against Brexit vote

[mommysboy]

The crucial point is getting enactment of Article 50. Even some Brexiters regard it something best delayed as a negotiating strategy. Plus it has yet to be determined if Parliament has to be consulted; if it does then even if MP's agree the second chamber could delay it if an Act of Parliament is required.

Both T May and M Gove have said enact next year, and D Cameron by quiting but not now, delays it until after a new PM,

I have a feeling they know something we don't and want to delay things.

I agree.

[ddavidovsky]

Well so far 41% of people who voted to leave did so based on racism and nothing to do with the economics of staying or leaving. So you tell me the economic benefits of leaving. I am yet to hear any person quantify the economic benefits of leaving the EU. Increase in GDP? increase in employment? increase in wages? strengthening of the Pound? AAA+ Credit Rating? Reduced inflation? Increased Foreign trade? Payment of national debt? Balanced budget forecast? Removal of Austerity? New Export deals? New Trade Deals that favour UK citizens and increase their wealth? Not just 'pie in the sky' some tangible numbers on the table.

If you can provide economic modelling that demonstrates the above it was a sensible vote to leave rather than stay in the EU.

When will the extra 350 million pounds a month start flowing into the NHS?

I have a big serving of lumpy porridge set aside for you.

The decision had nothing to do with economics. It was a quality of life issue.

When you pay a lot of money to go on holiday (say), you are economically worse off. You come back with nothing to show for it but some happiness, It was an investment in values. Economic gain has nothing to do with it. This is what bureaucrats and those who cannot get off the treadmill of economic growth can't understand.

[dick dasterdly]

The crucial point is getting enactment of Article 50. Even some Brexiters regard it something best delayed as a negotiating strategy. Plus it has yet to be determined if Parliament has to be consulted; if it does then even if MP's agree the second chamber could delay it if an Act of Parliament is required.

Be that as it may, the democratic decision was to leave the EU.

Legal arguments won't impress the electorate (even many of the remain voters).

Remain won't win by protesting. They lost - end of.

If I was one of the 52% who voted leave, I'd be pretty unimpressed if it was overturned because of a demonstration.

The routes outlined above are all they have left now. At best I can only see a delay. But a delay may throw up a life line of some sort, eg, renegotiated deal with EU which makes the referendum redundant, or large, ongoing mass demonstartions, coupled with opinion polls that show a big majority in favour of remain.

Slim hope, but it's all remain have.

A long delay may work, but more realistically the new PM needs to come up with some control of immigration to win another referendum once new terms have been agreed. Just my opinion of course.

For some reason the electorate seem to have forgotten the waste of money - EMP salaries/the cost of moving between Brussels and Strasbourg/the cost of overpaid EU civil servants coming up with new ideas to change things, with no good reason etc. etc. .

Edit - but I suspect they won't forget how wages have been reduced.

Edited July 3, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[up2u2]

up2u2 - It doesn't matter. The vote is the vote. It's sound. There is no suggestion of electoral fraud. Sadly, I might add.

You will get nowhere arguing the validity of the result itself.

100% agree the 'stayers' should have got out and hit the streets before the vote not after the vote.

If it is the young people hitting the streets when only 36% of them turned up to vote then there's a little lesson for them. Get out of bed get your pencil and get off your ass and vote. No good whining when you turn up a week late.

[Thaiwine]

...and then do we have a third for best of 3? On and on and on and on!

Yes, until a result which is in the best interests of the people is reached

Please explain just who do YOU think should decide what is in the best interests of the people?

You, me, politicians, any political party, the Queen or the Royal Family, the EU, France, Germany, Mickey Mouse?

If you claim that the people of the UK should decide, it may have escaped your notice that 51.8% of the people who ACTUALLY could be bothered to vote which was over 17 million people actually voted for a Brexit.

I was one of them.

From the tone of your posts you voted to stay.

Your side lost.

My side won.

A simple question for you.

If your side had won and my side had lost would you STILL have wanted another referendum?

So you genuinely believe that if Brexit had narrowly lost, the likes of UKIP would have just accepted it and not continued to campaign and push for another vote? Dream on!

I just want what is best for the UK and for future generations.

Not at all - UKIP would still have stood for election. Any protests etc. would have been ignored if the vote had gone the other way.

Much as is happening now - apart from those desperate to pursue any avenue to ignore the democratic vote.

Yes, that's how a parliamentary democracy works. Only parliament can extricate the UK from the EU. If UKIP/Brexiters were to gain a parliamentary majority, out we would go. Obviously there will be a political cost to parties/MPs who ignore the referendum result. Hence the fascinating political manouvering at the moment. Does anyone really believe Theresa May will follow through Brexit?

Are you saying T May will be the fallguy/woman for the remainers, she will be PM but not execute arttical 50 and so putting her head on the block and saving her fellow MP's jobs at the next election,

Such devotion to her comrades, hmmm I don't see it happening.

[impulse]

When you pay a lot of money to go on holiday (say), you are economically worse off. You come back with nothing to show for it but some happiness, It was an investment in values. Economic gain has nothing to do with it. This is what bureaucrats and those who cannot get off the treadmill of economic growth can't understand.

If your population is growing by 2% a year, and prices are rising at 3% a year, the only way you can maintain the same quality of life is 5% growth, and a 3% wage increase to keep up with inflation.

Otherwise, the magic of compounding numbers will have you retiring on bread, water, and no money for holidays in 30 years. The first 10 years won't be so bad, but... wait for it...

Problem is, we're getting some growth, but it's not going into wages (US and UK). There's a theory that says unchecked immigration from low wage countries in the EU is causing the wage stagnation in the UK. I agree with that theory, but it's open to discussion. I could be wrong.

Edited July 3, 2016 by impulse

[dick dasterdly]

Most MPs prefer to remain in the EU - its in their own financial interest to do so.

We've already established that the referendum was not an opinion poll/advisory - so we're now only looking for a new PM that is prepared to invoke article 50 and follow through by posting competent negotiators that also have in mind that leaving the EU is the only option following the referendum.

[i claudius]

Us leavers won ,get over it,

[impulse]

Most MPs prefer to remain in the EU - its in their own financial interest to do so.

We've already established that the referendum was not an opinion poll/advisory - so we're now only looking for a new PM that is prepared to invoke article 50 and follow through by posting competent negotiators that also have in mind that leaving the EU is the only option following the referendum.

My question, and it's only a question:

Does the PM have the legal authority to do it, or does he need the Parliament to approve it?

[sirineou]

Not at all - UKIP would still have stood for election. Any protests etc. would have been ignored if the vote had gone the other way.

Much as is happening now - apart from those desperate to pursue any avenue to ignore the democratic vote.

Yes, that's how a parliamentary democracy works. Only parliament can extricate the UK from the EU. If UKIP/Brexiters were to gain a parliamentary majority, out we would go. Obviously there will be a political cost to parties/MPs who ignore the referendum result. Hence the fascinating political manouvering at the moment. Does anyone really believe Theresa May will follow through Brexit?

Are you saying T May will be the fallguy/woman for the remainers, she will be PM but not execute arttical 50 and so putting her head on the block and saving her fellow MP's jobs at the next election,

Such devotion to her comrades, hmmm I don't see it happening.

Caveat : American, not really familiar with the intricacies of British culture , politics and parliamentary system.

Interesting comments above, since the referendum was so close, lf T May was to become PM and to disregard the referendum, will loose only 50% of the electorate's support. Any politician taking either side of the referendum will suffer a similar fate. So what is the downside of disregarding the referendum, calling it too close for such an important decision.

and moving forward to ..................

[dick dasterdly]

Most MPs prefer to remain in the EU - its in their own financial interest to do so.

We've already established that the referendum was not an opinion poll/advisory - so we're now only looking for a new PM that is prepared to invoke article 50 and follow through by posting competent negotiators that also have in mind that leaving the EU is the only option following the referendum.

My question, and it's only a question:

Does the PM have the legal authority to do it, or does he need the Parliament to approve it?

No idea - its a legal question that has not yet been answered.

All we know is that the referendum (that was always considered as a genuine referendum) came up with the democratic decision to leave the EU.

If politicians try to ignore this democratic decision it will not go down well. Not only with leave voters, but also with a number of remain voters IMO.

[brexiteer]

Most MPs prefer to remain in the EU - its in their own financial interest to do so.

We've already established that the referendum was not an opinion poll/advisory - so we're now only looking for a new PM that is prepared to invoke article 50 and follow through by posting competent negotiators that also have in mind that leaving the EU is the only option following the referendum.

As David Cameron so eloquently affirmed in his resignation speech.

People seem to have forgotten that.

[Doc46]

What a Drama ,one would think they get their shit together Before they vote hey,,,,Winging poms,,Winging to go out ,,,Now winging to go back in,,,

no wonder they are not much liked around the world .

[brewsterbudgen]

Most MPs prefer to remain in the EU - its in their own financial interest to do so.

We've already established that the referendum was not an opinion poll/advisory - so we're now only looking for a new PM that is prepared to invoke article 50 and follow through by posting competent negotiators that also have in mind that leaving the EU is the only option following the referendum.

As David Cameron so eloquently affirmed in his resignation speech.

People seem to have forgotten that.

As things stand now, that is true. But wait and see how things are after 2 years of exit negotiations and when the full consequences of Brexit are understood.

[dick dasterdly]

But of course this thread will soon change to the protest voters and other opinions un-related to the referendum vote that resulted in the leave result.

[impulse]

So what is the downside of disregarding the referendum, calling it too close for such an important decision.

They'll never be able to speak at the Thailand meetings of the British Chamber of Commerce without risking a firm tongue lashing by TVF posters?

[JHolmesJr]

Can anyone provide an example where the result of a Referendum was not implemented?

When the Scottish Referendum was won by those in favour of staying in the UK, they stayed. You didn't have losers accusing the winners of being misled.

Suck it up! That's how it works.

Period.

Edited July 3, 2016 by JHolmesJr

[dick dasterdly]

Most MPs prefer to remain in the EU - its in their own financial interest to do so.

We've already established that the referendum was not an opinion poll/advisory - so we're now only looking for a new PM that is prepared to invoke article 50 and follow through by posting competent negotiators that also have in mind that leaving the EU is the only option following the referendum.

As David Cameron so eloquently affirmed in his resignation speech.

People seem to have forgotten that.

As things stand now, that is true. But wait and see how things are after 2 years of exit negotiations and when the full consequences of Brexit are understood.

Couldn't agree more. Lets see what happens in the next 2 years.

Meanwhile, the govt. needs to invoke article 50 once a new (genuinely brexit) PM has been installed.

[impulse]

As David Cameron so eloquently affirmed in his resignation speech.

People seem to have forgotten that.

The salient point is that he resigned, effectively kicking it down the road.

People can be excused for forgetting the blah blah blah once that was clear.

[up2u2]

Us leavers won ,get over it,

So you will be taking responsibility for the economic fallout also? One thing I have learned about decisions made on racist propaganda is the racist always do a runner when the bill comes in. They always say they forgot their wallet and head for the door. Just like old Boris. No where to be seen.

[dick dasterdly]

As David Cameron so eloquently affirmed in his resignation speech.

People seem to have forgotten that.

The salient point is that he resigned, effectively kicking it down the road.

People can be excused for forgetting the blah blah blah once that was clear.

The blah blah blah was forgivable bearing in mind he wanted to stay in the EU and came back with a far from impressive deal following his last negotiation....

He was hardly the best person to lead the UK in negotiations following the leave vote!

[i claudius]

Us leavers won ,get over it,

So you will be taking responsibility for the economic fallout also? One thing I have learned about decisions made on racist propaganda is the racist always do a runner when the bill comes in. They always say they forgot their wallet and head for the door. Just like old Boris. No where to be seen.

Did I say it had anything to do with race? Yet the losers start by making it a race issue

[i claudius]

I voted to join a common market ,not to be ruled by thousands of snout in trough losers like Kinnock ,Mandelson and Junker,the E U is run by them for them ,well I for one wanted out and I got it , just live with it ,I would have had to if we lost

Edited July 3, 2016 by i claudius

[JHolmesJr]

So you will be taking responsibility for the economic fallout also?

Childish point…as can be expected from a sore loser.

The job of elected leaders in a democracy is to execute the will of the people….are you saying they are not competent enough to do this?

This is obviously a complex job ….to extricate a country from the web of other parasite countries that leech off it and compromise its sovereignty.

There will be pain….maybe more than usual….but we are talking about tearing down an existing structure and building a new one.

And once the process is complete, it will hopefully be based on a model that will benefit more of British people than just the politicians and their business cronies.

If the existing bunch of useless politicians can't do it, the British people deserve someone who can and will.

Edited July 3, 2016 by JHolmesJr

[JHolmesJr]

Im also very sceptical about Teresa May being the right the one for the job….she is from the Remain camp, although she didn't open her mouth much.

Giving her the power to sell the British people out in the forthcoming talks may not be a wise choice.

Edited July 3, 2016 by JHolmesJr

[dick dasterdly]

Im also very sceptical about Teresa May being the right the one for the job….she is from the Remain camp, although she didn't open her mouth much.

Giving her the power to sell the British people out in the forthcoming talks may not be a wise choice.

Surely it has to be someone who promoted the 'leave' vote?

But we're talking politics and politicians....

[up2u2]

Us leavers won ,get over it,

So you will be taking responsibility for the economic fallout also? One thing I have learned about decisions made on racist propaganda is the racist always do a runner when the bill comes in. They always say they forgot their wallet and head for the door. Just like old Boris. No where to be seen.

Did I say it had anything to do with race? Yet the losers start by making it a race issue

Because the decision to leave was motivated by racial bigotry and not on economic rationale. So outline the economic advantages of leaving the EU? Include the economic modelling and numbers that underpin the reasons for leaving? No one seems to be able to do this even after the vote has been carried.

[MissAndry]

Caveat : American, not really familiar with the intricacies of British culture , politics and parliamentary system.

Interesting comments above, since the referendum was so close, lf T May was to become PM and to disregard the referendum, will loose only 50% of the electorate's support. Any politician taking either side of the referendum will suffer a similar fate. So what is the downside of disregarding the referendum, calling it too close for such an important decision.

and moving forward to ..................

No, there are effectively 3 parties, SNP the Scots MPs come from an area where most voted to stay.

The Labour/Conservative MPs mostly represent areas that voted to leave.

And there's a lot of people that believe in democracy, freedom and fair play.

Recently the two main groups struggle to form a government usually with much less of the vote than happened in the referendum.

Anyone who dared to reverse the leave vote would not be the next elected government.

And yet another group, who would use violence to protect their freedom.

So we would have a new civil unrest problem as well.

Edited July 3, 2016 by MissAndry

[billd766]

Yes, until a result which is in the best interests of the people is reached

Please explain just who do YOU think should decide what is in the best interests of the people?

You, me, politicians, any political party, the Queen or the Royal Family, the EU, France, Germany, Mickey Mouse?

If you claim that the people of the UK should decide, it may have escaped your notice that 51.8% of the people who ACTUALLY could be bothered to vote which was over 17 million people actually voted for a Brexit.

I was one of them.

From the tone of your posts you voted to stay.

Your side lost.

My side won.

A simple question for you.

If your side had won and my side had lost would you STILL have wanted another referendum?

So you genuinely believe that if Brexit had narrowly lost, the likes of UKIP would have just accepted it and not continued to campaign and push for another vote? Dream on!

I just want what is best for the UK and for future generations.

You still haven't answered my question.

A simple question for you.

If your side had won and my side had lost would you STILL have wanted another referendum?

I don't know about anybody else but I would have accepted it.

What is a narrow loss?

10,000, 50,000, 100,000 votes? 1 or 2%?

It was over 1,000,000 votes and 3.8%.

quote "I just want what is best for the UK and for future generations."

Do you not think that I and many others who voted Brexit want the same thing?

How do YOU know what is best for the UK and future generations?

Are you omnipotent, do you have a crystal ball, use tarot cards?

[up2u2]

So you will be taking responsibility for the economic fallout also?

Childish point…as can be expected from a sore loser.

The job of elected leaders in a democracy is to execute the will of the people….are you saying they are not competent enough to do this?

This is obviously a complex job ….to extricate a country from the web of other parasite countries that leech off it and compromise its sovereignty.

There will be pain….maybe more than usual….but we are talking about tearing down an existing structure and building a new one.

And once the process is complete, it will hopefully be based on a model that will benefit more of British people than just the politicians and their business cronies.

If the existing bunch of useless politicians can't do it, the British people deserve someone who can and will.

The vote has been made and the politicians should now begin removing the UK from the EU. So what will be the economic benefit for the UK leaving the EU? The UK doesn't have to trade with the rest of the world if they don't wish too.