Beach bans on the burkini in France sparks widespread debate

[farcanell]

15 minutes ago, Opl said:

 man AND woman

 

 

 

 

Past and present

 

 

[farcanell]

30 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

Spot the "illegal" one!

 

 

 

Ironically... I'm guessing the illegal one, is the attractive one.

[Jingthing]

Yeah that diver is right fit! 

[Steely Dan]

There are no fewer than four separate threads open related to this topic. It's actually a stunning success for those who would rather discuss Muslims as victims rather than focus on the extremist religious ideology of some of their number. In other words a stunning own goal, so good one has to ask whether or not it was deliberate?

[Jingthing]

32 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

There are no fewer than four separate threads open related to this topic. It's actually a stunning success for those who would rather discuss Muslims as victims rather than focus on the extremist religious ideology of some of their number. In other words a stunning own goal, so good one has to ask whether or not it was deliberate?

A fair enough point, I suppose, but I don't think the French government is doing themselves any favors with their policies which will be seen, correctly, as focusing only on restricting Islamic cultural styles of dress and ignoring other religions. France has a significant Muslim population, that is the reality, and they are going to have to learn to make peace with that fact. So it really should a COMPLETELY secularist state with restrictions for ALL on all religious oriented dressing styles or nothing. The only exception that I think is fair and can be seen as fair is banning FACE coverings. They don't even have to say that's Islamic. Just ALL face coverings, except in exceptional cases like burn victims, etc. 

 

It's not a coincidence really that I think Jewish people, not only in France, but internationally, are mostly very supportive of freedom of dress for different religions, including of course Muslims. Jewish people are especially sensitive to minority religious groups being unfairly SCAPEGOATED.

 

Tolerating diversity in religious and cultural dress expression of course does not in any way mean toleration of terrorist activities.

 

That said, of course, France being a sovereign nation with a unique cultural tradition has every right to make any such rules they like ... but if they are seen as unfair to a specific religious group, they need to be prepared to be criticized for doing that. 

Personally I think the Burkinis look stupid but I think other cultural/religious dress styles look stupid too. Speedos on old fat men look worse than stupid.  People should have every right to dress in ways that many people don't particularly like. 

 

I happened to see a lady in Pattaya yesterday in a Burkini. The lady seemed to be projecting an ATTITUDE in wearing it that went beyond just wearing that silly costume. Or perhaps that was my  imagination. Either way, expressing ATTITUDE should be legal as well. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Jingthing

[Boon Mee]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I happened to see a lady in Pattaya yesterday in a Burkini. The lady seemed to be projecting an ATTITUDE in wearing it that went beyond just wearing that silly costume. Or perhaps that was my  imagination. Either way, expressing ATTITUDE should be legal as well. 

Well,, maybe 'Attitude' doesn't get the day.

As we all know, Russians with their less-than-pleasant attitudes are not the best of companions abroad, eh?

[Zendo]

Wait few hours more and we'll know the result of human rights court.. deciding it is legal or not to forbid religious costumes (from all religions) in public places such as beaches....

 

But if it's gonna be legal.. we'll need way more police officers only for that purpose.. stupid isn't ?! it's not doable at all... out of reach, and that is exactly what Mister Sarkozy is prentending he'll do if citizens vote for him as president.. Again... pffff he'll try everything to come back.. need few more rolex maybe.

 

By the Way.. the President Hollande talked about this in 2011, and was saying that we needs new laws to change this kind of thing, he was still vague at that time.. not taking too much risk and making much promises

Edited August 26, 2016 by Zendo

[farcanell]

14 minutes ago, Zendo said:

Wait few hours more and we'll know the result of human rights court.. deciding it is legal or not to forbid religious costumes (from all religions) in public places such as beaches....

 

But if it's gonna be legal.. we'll need way more police officers only for that purpose.. stupid isn't ?! it's not doable at all... out of reach, and that is exactly what Mister Sarkozy is prentending he'll do if citizens vote for him as president.. Again... pffff he'll try everything to come back.. need few more rolex maybe.

 

By the Way.. the President Hollande talked about this in 2011, and was saying that we needs new laws to change this kind of thing, he was still vague at that time.. not taking too much risk and making much promises

 

Yep... Checked today.. No update.... That said, the high courts may make a decision, but who knows when it will be published.

 

 I read it was being discussed by the French high court, not human rights court... And.... I believe that regardless of any human rights decision, it will all come down to what the French high court decides (which, undoubtedly, will include consideration of human rights issues)

 

i expect that this will be sorted, one way or the other, before NEXT beach season... Until then, it is what it is. (Unfortunately)

 

disturbingly, a lot of "experts" predict that a continuation of the ban, will push more Muslims towards extremism... Compounding the problem for everyone, because fashion police, modesty, burkinis, enjoying the beach, or whatever aside.... One thing I do know, is that more people tending towards extremism, is not a good outcome.

 

so.... With interest... We wait and watch... And hope France doesn't shoot herself in the foot

[GuestHouse]

France's highest administrative court, the 'Conseil d'État' has ruled on the ban put in place by the Mayor of Nice and has suspend the ban. 

Quote

The state council ruled that the mayor did not have the right to issue a burkini ban — stating that local authorities could only restrict individual liberties if there was a “proven risk” to public order. It believed that proven risk had not been demonstrated.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/26/frances-highest-court-suspends-burkini-ban-in-test-case

 

Welcome back to the beach ladies, whatever your faith, or lack there of. 

 

[Steely Dan]

1 hour ago, Zendo said:

Wait few hours more and we'll know the result of human rights court.. deciding it is legal or not to forbid religious costumes (from all religions) in public places such as beaches....

 

But if it's gonna be legal.. we'll need way more police officers only for that purpose.. stupid isn't ?! it's not doable at all... out of reach, and that is exactly what Mister Sarkozy is prentending he'll do if citizens vote for him as president.. Again... pffff he'll try everything to come back.. need few more rolex maybe.

 

By the Way.. the President Hollande talked about this in 2011, and was saying that we needs new laws to change this kind of thing, he was still vague at that time.. not taking too much risk and making much promises

The court suspends the ban. Why give such an easy straw man of a law to attack in the first place. A ban of veils in public actually does some good seeing as hiding identity is used by some criminals. Such a law could be argued as not discriminatory as it could apply to motorbike helmets with visors down as well.

 

The worst aspect of a climbdown now is that it will encourage civil disobedience the next time political Islam decides to flex its muscles.

[GuestHouse]

The Conseil d'État has given its ruling. 

 

Can we now look forward to the defenders of people's rights and liberties on this board to speak up demanding that women are allowed to wear the Burkini if they wish to and should be allowed to so without facing racial, islamophobic, insults or demands to 'go home/go live in  a Muslim country' if they do wear a Burkini?

 

 

[GuestHouse]

9 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

The worst aspect of a climbdown now is that it will encourage civil disobedience the next time political Islam decides to flex its muscles.

 

The ruling of the Conseil d'État is not a 'Climbdown' - it has suspended the ruling of the Mayor of Nice on the basis that he had no right to suspend individual liberties in this case. 

 

It is not a climb down, it is a step up defending the rights of individuals against the actions of a Mayor who made a decision which, on the basis of the situation on the beach, he had no right to make.

 

 

[thaihome]

24 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

The court suspends the ban. Why give such an easy straw man of a law to attack in the first place. A ban of veils in public actually does some good seeing as hiding identity is used by some criminals. Such a law could be argued as not discriminatory as it could apply to motorbike helmets with visors down as well.

 

The worst aspect of a climbdown now is that it will encourage civil disobedience the next time political Islam decides to flex its muscles.

Your use of "strawman"  while making a strawman fallacy  in your post it defies any logic or rational debate. 

TH 

[Zendo]

Yeah.. the French High Court had no other way to go !

 

Welcome back to an open free space ladies, and let's focus now on real problems to solve.. well that will not happen, more crazy stuff will come soon ^^

[Zendo]

Well.. not every where it seems :

Corsica : Mayor Sisco maintains its anti- Burkini arrested

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.europe1.fr%2Fsociete%2Fhaute-corse-le-maire-de-sisco-maintient-son-arrete-anti-burkini-2830954&edit-text=&act=url

 

 

 

[GuestHouse]

2 minutes ago, Zendo said:

Well.. not every where it seems :

Corsica : Mayor Sisco maintains its anti- Burkini arrested

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.europe1.fr%2Fsociete%2Fhaute-corse-le-maire-de-sisco-maintient-son-arrete-anti-burkini-2830954&edit-text=&act=url

 

 

 

 

Now what was it some folk were saying earlier about actions being a deliberate provocation?

 

[Steely Dan]

2 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

The ruling of the Conseil d'État is not a 'Climbdown' - it has suspended the ruling of the Mayor of Nice on the basis that he had no right to suspend individual liberties in this case. 

 

It is not a climb down, it is a step up defending the rights of individuals against the actions of a Mayor who made a decision which, on the basis of the situation on the beach, he had no right to make.

 

 

I should have phrased things with more care, you are correct in what you say. I was making the more general point that legislation should be made with care not to be discriminatory.

[Zendo]

well.. this mayor is really concerned about security.. in Corsica things are differents..  here is what he says :

 

" I do not feel myself concerned by the decision of the State Council ," said the mayor. " My order was not in prevention, I took it for the safety of property and people in my town , I was likely to have people dead here " , he explained .

 

 

Here is a link about the guys who where involved in the sisco story, returning to Paris for their safety :

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lepoint.fr%2Ffaits-divers%2Fsisco-l-exil-force-a-paris-des-protagonistes-de-la-rixe-26-08-2016-2063894_2627.php&edit-text=&act=url

 

[JetsetBkk]

58 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

political Islam

 

 

That's called "tautology".   

 

[katana]

On 19/08/2016 at 8:09 PM, GuestHouse said:

 

First you tell us Muslim women have been brain washed, can't see what's going on because their trapped and denied a voice. 

 

Then you give us a link to one who clearly is able to speak for herself.

 

It seems you lost the thread of your own argument. 

Wafa Sultan is an apostate and regularly speaks out against Islam.

[Steely Dan]

7 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

 

That's called "tautology".   

 

Correct, but let's pander to the wishes of those who would like Islam to give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's one day. Here is a Muslim I find myself agreeing with quite often, especially on this topic.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/25/both-sides-are-wrong-in-the-burkini-wars.html

[greenchair]

10 hours ago, farcanell said:

 

Yep... Checked today.. No update.... That said, the high courts may make a decision, but who knows when it will be published.

 

 I read it was being discussed by the French high court, not human rights court... And.... I believe that regardless of any human rights decision, it will all come down to what the French high court decides (which, undoubtedly, will include consideration of human rights issues)

 

i expect that this will be sorted, one way or the other, before NEXT beach season... Until then, it is what it is. (Unfortunately)

 

disturbingly, a lot of "experts" predict that a continuation of the ban, will push more Muslims towards extremism... Compounding the problem for everyone, because fashion police, modesty, burkinis, enjoying the beach, or whatever aside.... One thing I do know, is that more people tending towards extremism, is not a good outcome.

 

so.... With interest... We wait and watch... And hope France doesn't shoot herself in the foot

You counter your own defenses with the reason why it was banned in the first place. They want all the privileges of being in France, monetary benefits, jobs, education, freedom for woman, right to be whichever religion they choose, whilst demanding the french bow down to the Muslim customs and idealolgy. The consequences of not making them"special " is a bomb or a bullet. Now it's going to be no pork in schools, head scarfs in schools, more moscs , more immigrants rights. All based on the high Court ruling. Give em an inch, they'll take a mile. 

[cumgranosalum]

4 minutes ago, greenchair said:

You counter your own defenses with the reason why it was banned in the first place. They want all the privileges of being in France, monetary benefits, jobs, education, freedom for woman, right to be whichever religion they choose, whilst demanding the french bow down to the Muslim customs and idealolgy. The consequences of not making them"special " is a bomb or a bullet. Now it's going to be no pork in schools, head scarfs in schools, more moscs , more immigrants rights. All based on the high Court ruling. Give em an inch, they'll take a mile. 

..and you need a lesson in democracy. and fear management.

[katana]

15 hours ago, katana said:

Wafa Sultan is an apostate and regularly speaks out against Islam.

Here's an interesting interview with Wafa Sultan.

 

[ilostmypassword]

15 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

..and you need a lesson in democracy. and fear management.

And maybe some medication.

[greenchair]

On 27/8/2016 at 7:04 AM, cumgranosalum said:

..and you need a lesson in democracy. and fear management.

There you go, another veiled threats no different from the veiled threats of some Islamic communities. 

Make us "special" or we can't be responsible for the consequences. 

Don't criticise, or you might be in need of a "lesson" in fear. 

And this is exactly the battle that's going on in France. The French want them to integrate and be part of the french culture. The Muslims want to create a separate state within the french state. 

The French are using peaceable means to achieve integration. 

The Muslim are using veiled threats and bombs to achieve recognised separation. 

A bit similar to your veiled threat of "a lesson " because I dare to comment a personal opinion on a chat site. pathetic. 

[ilostmypassword]

On 8/27/2016 at 7:04 AM, cumgranosalum said:

..and you need a lesson in democracy. and fear management.

18 minutes ago, greenchair said:

There you go, another veiled threats no different from the veiled threats of some Islamic communities. 

Make us "special" or we can't be responsible for the consequences. 

Don't criticise, or you might be in need of a "lesson" in fear. 

And this is exactly the battle that's going on in France. The French want them to integrate and be part of the french culture. The Muslims want to create a separate state within the french state. 

The French are using peaceable means to achieve integration. 

The Muslim are using veiled threats and bombs to achieve recognised separation. 

A bit similar to your veiled threat of "a lesson " because I dare to comment a personal opinion on a chat site. pathetic. 

That you could see a threat in cumgranosalum's remarks is only proving his point.

As for your contention that that "The Muslim [sic] are using veilied threats and bombs to achieve recognized separation" is only proof of your bigotry.  Do you have polling results or some other evidence to show that all or even most Muslims in France want this? 

 

 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

That you could see a threat in cumgranosalum's remarks is only proving his point.

As for your contention that that "The Muslim [sic] are using veilied threats and bombs to achieve recognized separation" is only proof of your bigotry.  Do you have polling results or some other evidence to show that all or even most Muslims in France want this? 

 

 

We can thank gorge bush for the quote "if your not with us you're against us " .meaning anyone that wears a headscarf and refuses to join the voice to speak out about the bombings and killings of innocent families, children, woman and old people , indeed supports these abominations of humanity by their silence. It will not stop at the burkini, the burkini is irrelevant. There will many "I'm special demands" after this ruling. Just wait and see. 

[yogi100]

Ive got several French friends who visit Pattaya. They are all nationalistic and patriotic, more so than the British, Germans ans Scandinavians. In liberal speak that's racist and bigoted.

 

For years thare has bee mutual hatred between the French and their Muslim immigrants, The French were never asked for their approval on the matter of mass immigration. Muslims do not want to integrate and the French don't want them to.

 

This burkini issue is a reaction to this mutual hatred that has been intensified by recent atrocities. It's becoming a bubbling cauldron and if the Front National get in their ultimate aim will be to drive the Muslims out of France like the Algerians drove the French out of Algeria and they will take the task seriously.

[GuestHouse]

32 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

Ive got several French friends who visit Pattaya. They are all nationalistic and patriotic, more so than the British, Germans ans Scandinavians. In liberal speak that's racist and bigoted.

 

For years thare has bee mutual hatred between the French and their Muslim immigrants, The French were never asked for their approval on the matter of mass immigration. Muslims do not want to integrate and the French don't want them to.

 

This burkini issue is a reaction to this mutual hatred that has been intensified by recent atrocities. It's becoming a bubbling cauldron and if the Front National get in their ultimate aim will be to drive the Muslims out of France like the Algerians drove the French out of Algeria and they will take the task seriously.

 

Well if you are basing your views on the opinions from your several French friends who you admit are Racist and Bigoted, we might conclude the views you have expressed are blinded by racism and bigotry.

 

Questions to ask might include:

 

What part are politicians playing in stirring hatred and mistrust? To what end? Cui Bono will seldom let you down.

 

What is the real story of integration or lack thereof?

 

Are the broad brush views and assumptions of people representative of any truth or are they blinding us to a different view?