Beach bans on the burkini in France sparks widespread debate

[Zendo]

1 minute ago, greenchair said:

That's right. Raped, beaten and thrown out the country for disrespecting Allah or something. 

If Muslim woman in France want to break free from their restrictions by males they have every right and support. It does not mean they cannot be a faithful Muslim while blending into a culture. From what I see, the Muslim women are quite happy to be suppressed and have no rights. They support it and promote it themselves. 

 

Yes , that's ablsolutly right, stockhom syndrom ?  it makes me think about crocodiles entering in a leather goods shop !

[GeorgesAbitbol]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

This is one of the reasons I am so anti Muslim (I think it's number 37 on my list just in front of auto capitalisation of muslim)

 

I don't want to know what your religion is. Don't wave your burke or beard in my face

 

France is a SECULAR state like all others should be. Fit in with local mores and customs.

 

Keep your perverted fancy dress outfits in your own home. I DONT want to be exposed to your daft ideas.

Maybe then the french president and the Prime minister should stop wearing kippa and be appointed Chanoine in the first place if it was secular. Also maybe they should tax the chruches.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

All covering clothing is nothing to do with Islam. It is cultural. Muslims born in western countries don't normally wear burqas because burqas are not western cultural dress. Muslims in some African countries dress differently from Muslims in India or Saudi or Malaya. Afghan women wear different apparel from the Muslim women that host programs on Al Jazira. It isn't even mandatory to cover the hair. The only requirement is to dress modestly.

 

IMO, one of the greatest victories of the fundamentalist Muslims is to fool the people and leaders of western countries into believing that cultural clothing is religious when it is not. IMO cultural clothing has no RIGHT to be worn in a secular country, other than what that country allows.

[thaibeachlovers]

21 minutes ago, greenchair said:

That's right. Raped, beaten and thrown out the country for disrespecting Allah or something.

If Muslim woman in France want to break free from their restrictions by males they have every right and support. It does not mean they cannot be a faithful Muslim while blending into a culture. From what I see, the Muslim women are quite happy to be suppressed and have no rights. They support it and promote it themselves.

That is true. For whatever reason, many Saudi women WANT to be covered up. It isn't forced on them. Some even wear black gloves and TWO veils so no man can ever see the smallest piece of skin.

[ilostmypassword]

37 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

All covering clothing is nothing to do with Islam. It is cultural. Muslims born in western countries don't normally wear burqas because burqas are not western cultural dress. Muslims in some African countries dress differently from Muslims in India or Saudi or Malaya. Afghan women wear different apparel from the Muslim women that host programs on Al Jazira. It isn't even mandatory to cover the hair. The only requirement is to dress modestly.

 

IMO, one of the greatest victories of the fundamentalist Muslims is to fool the people and leaders of western countries into believing that cultural clothing is religious when it is not. IMO cultural clothing has no RIGHT to be worn in a secular country, other than what that country allows.

A fashion police state.

[Opl]

If you are from muslim culture and consider that women should not go around in their everyday life clothed like any other western woman, then I'm entiled to think that you have little consideration for women dressed "western style".

I am a woman, live in France and I feel uncomfortable anytime I pass by a woman veiled from head to toes.

If you go to the beach in France, you know you will find people half nude, if it's not correct for you ,  don't mix - it's a contradiction.

 

 

[joecoolfrog]

14 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

I have read there have been a few brawls and most recently cars have been torched. It appears the Muslim men get quite aggressive when people take photos of their wives in burkini.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

I have read there have been a few brawls and most recently cars have been torched. It appears the Muslim men get quite aggressive when people take photos of their wives in burkini.

 

 

I have been in pubs where men have been glassed for looking at another guys girlfriend , dont recall the assailants being Muslim !

[farcanell]

3 hours ago, Opl said:

If you are from muslim culture and consider that women should not go around in their everyday life clothed like any other western woman, then I'm entiled to think that you have little consideration for women dressed "western style".

I am a woman, live in France and I feel uncomfortable anytime I pass by a woman veiled from head to toes.

If you go to the beach in France, you know you will find people half nude, if it's not correct for you ,  don't mix - it's a contradiction.

 

 

 

This article is not about anyone condemning nudity on French beachs... It's about condemning not being nude (or semi nude).... And it's not the Muslims that are complaining, it's the non Muslims.

 

a couple of hundred years ago, France became the mother country of democracy, celebrated annually on the 14th of July...  even donating the Statue of Liberty to the USA, in commemoration of its own successful struggle for freedom and democracy.

 

i ask instead, what happened to that proud French value of democracy, since echoed around the world?

 

and.... As far as secularism goes... Seperating church from state... Great idea... Kudos.... But alternatively, banning anyone's religious driven choice of clothing or adornment, is kind of hypocritical, as it shows the state dictating to religion ( this justified for security reasons only... Ie... No facial covering)... And it's especially obnoxious, if bans aren't instituted unilaterally, meaning no cassocks and habits for Catholic priests and nuns....etc etc

 

also... Ill conceived comments about what would happen on a beach in a Muslim country are... Well... Stupid and ignorant... These countries ARE NOT democratic countries, like France, so you cannot (or should not) make comparisons.

 

this too, is xenophobic behavior, often condemned elsewhere on TV forums.... Even if it is driven by fear, post recent terrorist acts.

 

condemning all Muslims, or restricting them, isn't that far removed from what has happened to the Jews... Primarily in a country right next door to France.

 

apologies Opl, for tacking all this onto your post, but I simply can't be bothered addressing the ignorant and intolerant posts above, such as Zendo's, separately.

 

muslims aren't terrorists... Terrorists are terrorists!

[Opl]

No problem Fracanell, my point is anyway that what you choose to wear tells about who you are.

Today even more in this case. It's the background that gives signification. Willing it or not, you deliver a message, If you put all your identity and pride in your dress code, up to you 

If you are a little bit careful, you can avoid the potentially conflictual situations and stop claiming your right to differenciate, when it's not really relevant.  

Sometimes, you better give up your préférences , it's common sense, it's courtesy, and has little to do with the fact of living in a democracy or not.

[iReason]

@Post 7 ClutchClark

 

"I have read there have been a few brawls and most recently cars have been torched."

"It appears the Muslim men get quite aggressive when people take photos of their wives in burkini."

 

Got some links?

 

Otherwise, you are spouting pure hearsay and groundless gibberish.

[Opl]

iReason,

here is a link https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/15/corsica-mayor-bans-burkini-violence-beach-protests-sisco-france

 

and: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/16/burkini-beach-brawl-leads-third-french-city-in-a-week-to-ban-the-swimsuit-for-muslim-women/

 

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Opl

[iReason]

^^^

Fair enough.

 

That's the way it should be posted. 

[Zendo]

I wish everybody could live in peace..

 

Anyway France have much bigger problem than this clothing stuff, really I don't care if people wear stupid clothes on the beach and don't want to get tanned, and suffer from the heat..

But on theses days it's seen as a provocation, so just be wise and act accordingly.

This kind of behaviour is push by salafist and petro-dollars, has nothing to do with real islam at all, theses poor women are being manipulated by "muslims brotherhood", everybody with brain can understand that.... You have to understand that now, the country is under real sensitive times.

 

My muslims friends drink and smoke and have fun, they don't enslave their women and their daughters...We share the food, we share good times and have same opinions about burka, burkinis and all this crazy stuff that comes now, all they want is to enjoy the life in France, don't want to live anywhere else, they just want to enjoy this freedom, not going back to middle age.

 

Anyway all religions are just a plague... Why can't people just be free and together instead of being part of a pre-formatted way of thinking ?

 

What happened to democracy ?... it has never been really digested by people... Give people freedom and they run to another kind of slavery, that is human nature. Intelligence is always late in front of fear, and so many people in France are radical right sided, more and more everyday, this is part of the salafist plan : destroy this fraternity and set appart peoples, makes small group instead of ONE stream, so maybe one day we'll fight against each others and break all good things that took so much time to build.

 

Burkinis shouldn't be banned.. cops have better things to do, people who love France shouldn't wear them there, that's simple !

 

 

 

[Zendo]

Quote

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

 

Albert Einstein

 

[Zendo]

Quote

“Yet again it’s ordinary Muslims who pay for the actions of terrorists even though they had nothing to do with it,” Ben Mohamed added. “This is exactly what Daesh [the Islamic State] wants.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/16/burkini-beach-brawl-leads-third-french-city-in-a-week-to-ban-the-swimsuit-for-muslim-women/

 

Well... Ordinary muslims didn't wear burkinis last years in French beaches.. why doing it now, after all these people being killed in the name of Hallah ? isn't it stupid and provocative ?

But that's true that salafists wants this kind of thing to happen. So muslims women should think twice to the message their carry, islamophobia is running like a wild rabbit everywhere now, don't give it more reason to grow.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, Opl said:

No problem Fracanell, my point is anyway that what you choose to wear tells about who you are.

Today even more in this case. It's the background that gives signification. Willing it or not, you deliver a message, If you put all your identity and pride in your dress code, up to you 

If you are a little bit careful, you can avoid the potentially conflictual situations and stop claiming your right to differenciate, when it's not really relevant.  

Sometimes, you better give up your préférences , it's common sense, it's courtesy, and has little to do with the fact of living in a democracy or not.

 

Cant argue with that.... Your choices do, in fact, define you.

 

i think there is some age old saying about bending vs breaking that might apply.

 

personally, I live more by... Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you... And no... Their is not one religious bone in my body ( just in case that was biblical) ?

[farcanell]

57 minutes ago, iReason said:

@Post 7 ClutchClark

 

"I have read there have been a few brawls and most recently cars have been torched."

"It appears the Muslim men get quite aggressive when people take photos of their wives in burkini."

 

Got some links?

 

Otherwise, you are spouting pure hearsay and groundless gibberish.

 

Plenty there to read, per CCs claim.... How accurate it is, is anyone's guess

[ClutchClark]

3 hours ago, iReason said:

^^^

Fair enough.

 

That's the way it should be posted. 

 

Ridiculous. 

 

If you want further details then it is not my responsibility to do your work for you. 

 

You are perfecly capable of using the google function.

 

Do your own bidding.

 

 

[ClutchClark]

10 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

France has proud secular traditions??? Traditionally France has had the highest percentage of anti Jewish sentiment in Europe, way before the large Muslim immigration. Indeed le Pen's party was 'traditionally' anti Semitic.

 

How you can justify the banning of Burkinis on some French beaches by associating with  Islamic extremism I do not know. It is alleged in Corsica the fight between groups was triggered by some locals photographing the Burkini clad women without first asking; don't know about you but some guys taking photos of my wife without permission would not meet with my approval. I hazard a guess the youths taking the photos were aggressive & insulting. In other parts of France some bans have been excused on the grounds of being unhygienic. Laughable people are defending discrimination based upon bigotry against people who are endeavouring to enjoy themselves with their families on a day out.

 

So you need to fabricate events in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas?

 

OK.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, ClutchClark said:

 

So you need to fabricate events in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas?

 

OK.

 

I assume you overlooked the word "guess" rather than a definitive statement, so no fabrication on my part. The complete opposite to those from the bigot brigade who unequivocally assert every murder / assault incident is due to Islam. BTW the riots in Paris and elsewhere with burning cars have nothing to do with the OP, so yet again a false narrative.

[ClutchClark]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

 

I assume you overlooked the word "guess" rather than a definitive statement, so no fabrication on my part. The complete opposite to those from the bigot brigade who unequivocally assert every murder / assault incident is due to Islam. BTW the riots in Paris and elsewhere with burning cars have nothing to do with the OP, so yet again a false narrative.

 

You "guessed" the photographers must have been "aggressive or insulting" and this is why the Muslim men get into altercations with them. The article does not indicate that the photgraphers were "aggressive or insulting" so you have invented this "guess" in order to fit you narrative. 

 

 

 

 

[Linzz]

On 8/17/2016 at 11:12 AM, canuckamuck said:

Good for France for pushing back and trying to preserve their culture of freedom. The Burka is a form of oppression and should be resisted at every turn by freedom loving people

 

To us it is a symbol of oppression but to a lot of Muslims they feel uncomfortable  not being covered up. It's cultural practices. Each to their own.

But how is the preservation of freedom for freedom loving people maintained if the State dictates what people should wear on a beach? Sounds like a contradiction in terms. Are the Muslims asking for everyone to wear burkinis? Are the near nakeds asking for everyone to wear bikinis? Looks like they're mingling ok. 

 

 Its become a strange world when once upon a time the outcry was because of too little clothing and now the outcry is because of too much clothing. Perhaps if offenses are felt too strongly in either case there should be burkini beaches just as there are nudist beaches in many countries.

[simple1]

9 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

You "guessed" the photographers must have been "aggressive or insulting" and this is why the Muslim men get into altercations with them. The article does not indicate that the photgraphers were "aggressive or insulting" so you have invented this "guess" in order to fit you narrative.

 

 

The Corsican's are launching an investigation into the causes of the fight so will have to await the outcome as to the provocations by either party. So far as cars being set alight, in this incident it is alleged locals set fire to the Muslim bathers cars.

[Zendo]

12 minutes ago, Linzz said:

 

To us it is a symbol of oppression but to a lot of Muslims they feel uncomfortable  not being covered up. It's cultural practices. Each to their own.

But how is the preservation of freedom for freedom loving people maintained if the State dictates what people should wear on a beach? Sounds like a contradiction in terms. Are the Muslims asking for everyone to wear burkinis? Are the near nakeds asking for everyone to wear bikinis? Looks like they're mingling ok. 

 

 Its become a strange world when once upon a time the outcry was because of too little clothing and now the outcry is because of too much clothing. Perhaps if offenses are felt too strongly in either case there should be burkini beaches just as there are nudist beaches in many countries.

 

It is already a strange world.. in France muslims already wins many points that jewish didn't even ask for like having a different meal for their kids on FREE public schools... How dare you ask for this kind of thing ? Schools are free, it has always been like this , if you don't want porc, eat veggies !! Some muslims lobbies are constantly fighting and arguing to manage separation, differences instead of trying to melt with others, exactly like this burkini thing... look we are different and we don't want to be like you, we are PURE you are pigs ^^ give us Special treatment, and if government refuse, then they are crying and looks like victims ^^ once more !

[MaxYakov]

In support of the principles of freedom of choice, I don't have a problem with burkinis on the beach.

 

It just looks as stupid as the street burkas and I'm deeply concerned about their getting sufficient vitamin D.  

[ClutchClark]

23 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

The Corsican's are launching an investigation into the causes of the fight so will have to await the outcome as to the provocations by either party. So far as cars being set alight, in this incident it is alleged locals set fire to the Muslim bathers cars.

 

OK. Good quote. Thanks.

 

I was going off the quote in the OP article which made no mention of aggressive tactics other than tsking a photo:

 

"In Corsica a brawl broke out where women were bathing in burkinis. It is unclear what sparked the fighting but reports suggested a man argued with a tourist after accusing him of photographing the women. Five were injured."

[canuckamuck]

6 minutes ago, Linzz said:

 

To us it is a symbol of oppression but to a lot of Muslims they feel uncomfortable  not being covered up. It's cultural practices. Each to their own.

But how is the preservation of freedom for freedom loving people maintained if the State dictates what people should wear on a beach? Sounds like a contradiction in terms. Are the Muslims asking for everyone to wear burkinis? Are the near nakeds asking for everyone to wear bikinis? Looks like they're mingling ok. 

 

 Its become a strange world when once upon a time the outcry was because of too little clothing and now the outcry is because of too much clothing. Perhaps if offenses are felt too strongly in either case there should be burkini beaches just as there are nudist beaches in many countries.

It is a contradiction if you look at the small picture. Banning a type of dress is not an act of freedom. However, the Burkhini is only a symptom of a malady which has many facets. One facet, which should horrify the liberals and feminists which currently dominate Europe, is the systematic oppression of women. Pushing back against  the oppression of women wherever it is found should  need no explanation. Especially since western women are losing their freedom to be safe in their own neighbourhoods. Yes the burkhini is well intentioned and on its own is not anything to fear. People should have the right to dress as they wish, even if it makes them appear brain damaged. But western civilisation is at war and these are not normal times. Resistance to bronze age barbarianism is act of civil defense.

[simple1]

22 minutes ago, Zendo said:

 

It is already a strange world.. in France muslims already wins many points that jewish didn't even ask for like having a different meal for their kids on FREE public schools... How dare you ask for this kind of thing ? Schools are free, it has always been like this , if you don't want porc, eat veggies !! Some muslims lobbies are constantly fighting and arguing to manage separation, differences instead of trying to melt with others, exactly like this burkini thing... look we are different and we don't want to be like you, we are PURE you are pigs ^^ give us Special treatment, and if government refuse, then they are crying and looks like victims ^^ once more !

 

From my reading Jews were provided pork free school meals as a matter of policy as were Muslim school children. Apparently the policy of pork free meals has been overturned by some right wing councils; in other words acting against the interest of Jewish & Muslim children for political motivations.

[Zendo]

simple1, there has always been facilities for kids at public school but it was just simple understanding and respect, no special meals was prepared.

 

"Apparently the policy of pork free meals has been overturned by some right wing councils ", where I grow I never seen this kind of special meals served, If kids didn't want to eat pork (and most of muslims children I was at school with eated it without any problems... ham is good with purée !)   then they eat only vegs,  there was no other meat served. Some muslims lobbies pushed so hard to get special hallal food that yes it bothered right wing and they jumped into to forbid it... exactly the same that is happening now : strategy for dividing peoples, it starts with the kids of course !

[Opl]

I use googletrad to quote these further informations, below ,  from a french newspaper ( le parisien) , explaining  it finally was a "territory battle"

 

" Neither radicalized individuals from one side or racist villains of the other." Words, very selected, the prosecutor of Bastia (Corsica) at a press conference held yesterday on the brawl Sisco had the double merit of providing the necessary lighting and try to ease tensions still on the island. Commenting on the result of four days of investigations and five débutées custody yesterday morning, the judge described the exact scenario of the violent fight between a family of origin of Maghrebian Lupino, a suburb of Bastia, and villagers Sisco, which originated in a desire to "privatize" the beach from the first.
The first incident began earlier in the day, when swimmers, among them fully dressed and veiled women, wanted to "own" the little creek, in the words of the prosecutor. "They put a traffic prohibition sign - more or less symbolically because people could go - to let no-one go", described Nicolas Bessone. Several times, passersby and tourists approaching too close have been insulted and threatened,  some receiving stones. Until a group of young people of the village warned of the situation, arrived  on the premises.
It was at this moment that the situation escalates and the versions diverge. An altercation broke out between the two groups. One of the teenagers would have been struck by one or more of the three men of North African origin family. Warned that his son might be molested, the father of the young man goes to the site, and in turn would have suffered strokes, several witnesses suggesting the use of a harpoon and a bat used by attackers. In the process, they are dozens of angry villagers who joined to the beach. This time it is the swimmers who have experienced violence before the police arrived in numbers not soothe tensions. "