Skinny calf ?

[Cashboy]

One of our cows had its calf three days ago.

This calf looks very skinny.

Is this normal or should we call the vet out?

[ClutchClark]

Not one photo of it on the tit.

 

Is it feeding?

[ClutchClark]

Have you got it to suckle within 6 hours of birth?

[Cashboy]

1 hour ago, ClutchClark said:

Not one photo of it on the tit.

 

Is it feeding?

Clutch; that is exactly what I asked the Thai girl.

She confirmed it is feeding.

Could it be that this calf was born a bit premature?

[kickstart]

The problem is with the  cow  and  the breed ,or looking at   her I would say a first calving  heifer . where is her udder? was she feed anything    before she calved? ,what feed was getting she  used it to keep herself   going  ,that is one reason  why the calf is thin .was she getting any  mineral's, Thai soils are  short of most mineral's    

 

Also the breed .mum  is a Native Thai crossed with a Bahaman , the sire  was  I would say 50% Indo Brazil ,look at the long ears and  legs  typical  Indo Brazil ,the  Indo breed is not a breed noted  for its  fat ,all ears and legs .

 

I would say she did not calve premature  , calf is sucking ok and looks fit  ,maybe an injection  of vitamin  E /Selenium, help prevent  white muscle  disease.

Feeding the cow would help most ,also prevent her losing  to much body weight ,help   keep her milk  going  ,then she should  come on heat  sooner  .

 

[Cashboy]

1 hour ago, kickstart said:

The problem is with the  cow  and  the breed ,or looking at   her I would say a first calving  heifer . where is her udder? was she feed anything    before she calved? ,what feed was getting she  used it to keep herself   going  ,that is one reason  why the calf is thin .was she getting any  mineral's, Thai soils are  short of most mineral's    

 

Also the breed .mum  is a Native Thai crossed with a Bahaman , the sire  was  I would say 50% Indo Brazil ,look at the long ears and  legs  typical  Indo Brazil ,the  Indo breed is not a breed noted  for its  fat ,all ears and legs .

 

I would say she did not calve premature  , calf is sucking ok and looks fit  ,maybe an injection  of vitamin  E /Selenium, help prevent  white muscle  disease.

Feeding the cow would help most ,also prevent her losing  to much body weight ,help   keep her milk  going  ,then she should  come on heat  sooner  .

 

 

Thank you for that information.

You clearly are well clued up on cows.

You are correct.

This is the cows first calf

The father was a Bahaman I believe; see picture below.

 

Here is a picture of the rear of the mother to show you her udders

 

The mother lived off the food on the farm; no other food was given to her except the rock salt with nutrients that you recommended in a previous article.

There are at least four farm shops in Kumpawapi.

 

What do you recommend the Thai girlfriend gets for the mother to feed her on to produce more milk and have a healthy calf?

 

Do you think I should call a vet in and out of interest how much is a vet to give her a vitamin E injection?

 

I am not in Thailand so can only relay the information to the Thai girl that you give me.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

[kickstart]

I  would  feed the cow ,looking at the photographs, if that is they "grazing"  the cow will be shot of     everything ,protein ,energy  ,minerals ,being a first calving  heifer  she will soon run out of milk ,leaving the calf  short ,and you  will  end up with a  stunted calf ,as I said  the sire is  part Indo Brazil ,it  is showing in the calf , I have  said before  the Indo breed  is an intensive  breed  and needs  some form  of feeding  to grow ,and  produce anything ,unlike our Thai  native cattle ,that can graze   poor forage  and still grow.

 

Where I am  I can buy a  50kg sack of ,locally mixed cattle feed ,not pelleted  feed ,of 14%  for 350 baht what  it costs were you are I would not know  ,say about 2-3 kg /day  would help a  lot , but  ,Thai beef cattle traditional    do not  eat any form of feed ,so saying to the family  buy a bag or two  of feed ,might fall on deaf  ears .

 

What  would help is growing some  grass ,dueing the rainy season with plenty of good quality grass ,you could feed very littal  feed ,grass providing  all they need ,maybe a simpal sprinkler system  in the hot season ,would provide  some grass ,better than rice straw ,for certain  .

I did see in the background of one photo  some cassava  growing ,at harvest time get the cassava leaves  and dry them ,a high protine feed .and not forgetting one of my feed Leucaena  Leucocephaca, the tree  legume  ",Gratin" ,in Thai  a high protein  feed ,not  popular with Thai farmers  ,they say it causes  intergestion  ,I have been feeding it for some years  and had very littal  problems with it .

 

As  for the vet the cost of injecting a young calf  should be no more than 100 --120  baht he would only inject  5cc  at the most .

I would hold back  on the vet ,if  the calf is suckling  ok  and likes  running  around   now and then ,he  should  be ok.

 

 

[Cashboy]

13 hours ago, kickstart said:

I  would  feed the cow ,looking at the photographs, if that is they "grazing"  the cow will be shot of     everything ,protein ,energy  ,minerals ,being a first calving  heifer  she will soon run out of milk ,leaving the calf  short ,and you  will  end up with a  stunted calf ,as I said  the sire is  part Indo Brazil ,it  is showing in the calf , I have  said before  the Indo breed  is an intensive  breed  and needs  some form  of feeding  to grow ,and  produce anything ,unlike our Thai  native cattle ,that can graze   poor forage  and still grow.

 

Where I am  I can buy a  50kg sack of ,locally mixed cattle feed ,not pelleted  feed ,of 14%  for 350 baht what  it costs were you are I would not know  ,say about 2-3 kg /day  would help a  lot , but  ,Thai beef cattle traditional    do not  eat any form of feed ,so saying to the family  buy a bag or two  of feed ,might fall on deaf  ears .

 

What  would help is growing some  grass ,dueing the rainy season with plenty of good quality grass ,you could feed very littal  feed ,grass providing  all they need ,maybe a simpal sprinkler system  in the hot season ,would provide  some grass ,better than rice straw ,for certain  .

I did see in the background of one photo  some cassava  growing ,at harvest time get the cassava leaves  and dry them ,a high protine feed .and not forgetting one of my feed Leucaena  Leucocephaca, the tree  legume  ",Gratin" ,in Thai  a high protein  feed ,not  popular with Thai farmers  ,they say it causes  intergestion  ,I have been feeding it for some years  and had very littal  problems with it .

 

As  for the vet the cost of injecting a young calf  should be no more than 100 --120  baht he would only inject  5cc  at the most .

I would hold back  on the vet ,if  the calf is suckling  ok  and likes  running  around   now and then ,he  should  be ok.

 

 

Kickstart,

 

Thank you very much for your advise.  Much appreciated.

Before your post, I sent the Thai girl to the farm shops instructing her to tell the shop owner that she has a cow that has just had a calf and requires that requires food for it to produce more milk for the calf. 

The farm shop supplied her with rock salt with vitamins I believe.

She said that the farm shops did not sell food for cows.  If it was the shop I went with her, it was more like a chemist for farmers.

 

It is rather difficult for her because her father never listens (thinks he knows better) and she is not a farm girl but works in Bangkok in a very senior position for the largest sugar cane company.

She has actually been coming back to Kumpawapi every weekend to look after her mother that is dying from cancer of the colon (nothing the hospital can do) , her brother comes back from his province during the week to look after the mother.

She will tell her brother what you wrote and hopefully he will sort something out.

[Isan Farang]

43 minutes ago, Cashboy said:

Kickstart,

 

Thank you very much for your advise.  Much appreciated.

Before your post, I sent the Thai girl to the farm shops instructing her to tell the shop owner that she has a cow that has just had a calf and requires that requires food for it to produce more milk for the calf. 

The farm shop supplied her with rock salt with vitamins I believe.

She said that the farm shops did not sell food for cows.  If it was the shop I went with her, it was more like a chemist for farmers.

 

It is rather difficult for her because her father never listens (thinks he knows better) and she is not a farm girl but works in Bangkok in a very senior position for the largest sugar cane company.

She has actually been coming back to Kumpawapi every weekend to look after her mother that is dying from cancer of the colon (nothing the hospital can do) , her brother comes back from his province during the week to look after the mother.

She will tell her brother what you wrote and hopefully he will sort something out.

 

 Other natural methods to be considered.

 

   

 

 

[kickstart]

10 hours ago, Isan Farang said:

 Other natural methods to be considered.

 

   

 

 

Grass ,of various  types ,all good natural stuff .

Where I live I almost see some one out  cutting grass  most  days ,and with rice straw  now approaching   45 baht a bale  more farmers are cutting  grass  from road sides  and corners of fields ,this photo  looks good ,all the grass was  cut with a  sickle   ,same one that is used for  harvesting rice ,not a  5 minute job we have done it in  the past , ,but reading what the op says who is going to cut the grass ,and more important  who will do it on a regular   basis  .

The easiest   way for the  op would be  to grow some grass and ,and use a strip grazing system , once the system is up and going  you might only need  to move the strip fence  say every 2 days ,only a  15 minute job  .             

[Gary A]

If it was my calf, I'd have the vet out having a look at it and the cow. It is a valuable animal. The cow's udder looks small and maybe is not producing enough milk. You may end up bottle feeding the calf until it gains some weight.

[kickstart]

12 hours ago, Gary A said:

If it was my calf, I'd have the vet out having a look at it and the cow. It is a valuable animal. The cow's udder looks small and maybe is not producing enough milk. You may end up bottle feeding the calf until it gains some weight.

 

You get the vet  out ,if they are like the vets  in my area ,all he will  do is  give the cow a worm  injection  and probably  a multivitamin injection  ,and he will give the calf a multi vitamin  injection .

 

He will  give the cow an injection ,providing  some  one can hold/restrain  the cow ,what the op says  it is not going to be easy ,Thai vet  are scared   of cattle ,especially  beef cattle ,and trying  to  restrain the cow , when her calf is not with  her ,  again not easy ,dose he have  a holding race ? if so  ok , if not  she will be tied to a tree  with a length rope , from the rope going through her nose .

 

A few moths ago  my next door neighbour  had  5 people ,1 hour  to inject  10-12 cattle  with a   foot and mouth vaccine , no holding race ,each animal pulled and tied to a concrete  electric pole , they then came and said to us  do we want our cattle vaccinating ,we said   big no ,we will do it ourselves , we have a holding race ,and it is not a big job.

 

The cow  will have a job to provide milk for the calf ,being a first calving heifer ,her milk  production  will not be the same as a  cow that has  a few  calves ,what feed she is getting , she is using it to  provide milk for the calf , and ,to keep herself going ,and she is about 60-70 % of her full  body size , and needs the food to grow ,what  she needs is a proper diet  ,that rough  grazing will not suffice   ,as I said I can not  see what a vet can do ,except give the calf  an injection.  

[Cashboy]

13 hours ago, kickstart said:

 

The cow  will have a job to provide milk for the calf ,being a first calving heifer ,her milk  production  will not be the same as a  cow that has  a few  calves ,what feed she is getting , she is using it to  provide milk for the calf , and ,to keep herself going ,and she is about 60-70 % of her full  body size , and needs the food to grow ,what  she needs is a proper diet  ,that rough  grazing will not suffice   ,as I said I can not  see what a vet can do ,except give the calf  an injection.  

 

Thank you for that.

Her father sits on the farm all day playing with his (pointless in my opinion) chickens/cockerals.   I have told the Thai girl to get him to go on my motorbike and cut some grass from the road sides sythes I bought sometime ago.

He can collect it on my Honda Wave that I keep at her village and let him use. 

The problem I find with people is that they just don't believe what you recommend them and then they come crying when things go wrong.

 

Kickstart,   Can I buy food pellets for cows in Thailand;  i.e. do they sell them?    I could give the food pellets whilst they stay in the cow shed over night if that was the case.

 

 

 

 

[kickstart]

7 hours ago, Cashboy said:

 

Thank you for that.

Her father sits on the farm all day playing with his (pointless in my opinion) chickens/cockerals.   I have told the Thai girl to get him to go on my motorbike and cut some grass from the road sides sythes I bought sometime ago.

He can collect it on my Honda Wave that I keep at her village and let him use. 

The problem I find with people is that they just don't believe what you recommend them and then they come crying when things go wrong.

 

Kickstart,   Can I buy food pellets for cows in Thailand;  i.e. do they sell them?    I could give the food pellets whilst they stay in the cow shed over night if that was the case.

 

 

 

 

Hi Cashboy

You can buy pelleted cattle food in Thailand  quite easy ,but it is mainly fed to dairy cows ,and dairy cows tend to be kept in areas  near a milk collection  centre I do not know if you are near  a  dairy  cow area,  but you could feed some rice bran รำข้าว  in Thai ,that is available  from any local rice mill ,there will be one in your area it is about 10 baht/kg ,but on its own  it is not easy to  eat, very   dry and sticks  in the mouth and throat  , if you could find some dried  cassava  chips and mix them ,the protein  will be about 7-8%, a bit low ,(in an ideal world  you need 14-16%  protein  ration ), but it is better than  nothing,  just remembered , I have seen rice bran  feed with chopped up stems from  banana plants ,banana  plants being a succulent,  again protein  will  be a bit low ,but its works.  

One another  thing  when she is in the shed  at night  time  dose she have any thing  to eat  ie cut grass , or rice straw ,a lot of  beef farmers  feed they beef cattle  nothing at  night ,just locked in the pen/shed  at night time ,they say  that cattle sleep at night  time and do not feed , which is  bs  ,   if cattle have some fed at  night  time they will eat it ,and cattle  do not sleep , they lay down and  chew the cud  most of the night , if they are in a grass field they will  graze  at night  time.

[Cashboy]

On 8/31/2016 at 3:16 PM, kickstart said:

Hi Cashboy

You can buy pelleted cattle food in Thailand  quite easy ,but it is mainly fed to dairy cows ,and dairy cows tend to be kept in areas  near a milk collection  centre I do not know if you are near  a  dairy  cow area,  but you could feed some rice bran รำข้าว  in Thai ,that is available  from any local rice mill ,there will be one in your area it is about 10 baht/kg ,but on its own  it is not easy to  eat, very   dry and sticks  in the mouth and throat  , if you could find some dried  cassava  chips and mix them ,the protein  will be about 7-8%, a bit low ,(in an ideal world  you need 14-16%  protein  ration ), but it is better than  nothing,  just remembered , I have seen rice bran  feed with chopped up stems from  banana plants ,banana  plants being a succulent,  again protein  will  be a bit low ,but its works.  

One another  thing  when she is in the shed  at night  time  dose she have any thing  to eat  ie cut grass , or rice straw ,a lot of  beef farmers  feed they beef cattle  nothing at  night ,just locked in the pen/shed  at night time ,they say  that cattle sleep at night  time and do not feed , which is  bs  ,   if cattle have some fed at  night  time they will eat it ,and cattle  do not sleep , they lay down and  chew the cud  most of the night , if they are in a grass field they will  graze  at night  time.

 

We have a small local rice mill so could buy "rice bran" but as you say I would think very very dry.  Couldn't one soak it in some water?

I know that the mother of the Thai girl often feeds those small bananas and mangos to the cows but she is seriously ill now so relying on her father.

 

As far as I know the cows do not get fed at night, as you say just left in the shed with water.

I am in the UK at the moment otherwise I would have gone and csorted this out myself.

 

Those are the latest pictures below.  That is not its mother.  That is an 18 month old bull (not its father).

This calf looks well skinny to me?

 

Maybe it is me, but I just find Thai people don't take anything one says seriously.  I find this incredibly frustrating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kickstart]

Hi Cashboy

                     Mixing water  with rice bran  does not work ,it is all to do with  DM ( dry matter) ,that is  the amount of water  in a food ,rice bran is about  90% DM ,or 90% food ,rice bran ,and 10 % water ,if you mix  water  with the rice bran  I would say the DM  would be about 30%,and 70 % water , the cow would be  full of water ,not food ,and I would  with all that porridge type  consistency   it would  not do her  digestive system a lot of  good ,it works for pigs as they are mono gastric ,have one stomach  and can digest  a diet  like that ,cattle with  4 stomachs/ compartment's   can not digest  a diet like this ,or if they do  they will  not get a lot out of  it , for production (milk for the calf) or growth .

 

You could mix  molasses with the rice bran กากน้ำตาล,  Gut -Num -Tun, in Thai ,that would work , but you are back to the problem  of finding  molasses  where you are .

 

As I see it  your best  bet  would be to get   her father  to go and cut some grass ,and if  you can persuade him  cut some  of the tree legume  "gratin", but,  so I have been told  it does not grow well in Isan ,(here in  Lopburi ,me and the misses cut  about 70 kg  to day in  about  45 minuets. ).

 

If you have  a bit of time  look at  molasses   urea feed  blocks, on Google ,you can make them  your self ,plenty of  recipes , that would be a job  for you  when you come back to  Thailand, a good energy  source  for cattle .

 

As for the calf ,now 12 days old ,she looks bright  enough as I said  if she is suckling ok ,and has a gallop  about  now and then ,she should do  ok ,again what would help ,the calf ,make a small creep area ,a pen that only  the calf has access  to and feed her  some  calf  food ,in about   2  weeks she will be looking for some  solid  feed, when she starts  eating solid food , not rough grass,  she will start to put on some weight , again the  problem  of finding the feed .

 

 

[Cashboy]

On 9/5/2016 at 3:45 PM, kickstart said:

Hi Cashboy

                     Mixing water  with rice bran  does not work ,it is all to do with  DM ( dry matter) ,that is  the amount of water  in a food ,rice bran is about  90% DM ,or 90% food ,rice bran ,and 10 % water ,if you mix  water  with the rice bran  I would say the DM  would be about 30%,and 70 % water , the cow would be  full of water ,not food ,and I would  with all that porridge type  consistency   it would  not do her  digestive system a lot of  good ,it works for pigs as they are mono gastric ,have one stomach  and can digest  a diet  like that ,cattle with  4 stomachs/ compartment's   can not digest  a diet like this ,or if they do  they will  not get a lot out of  it , for production (milk for the calf) or growth .

 

You could mix  molasses with the rice bran กากน้ำตาล,  Gut -Num -Tun, in Thai ,that would work , but you are back to the problem  of finding  molasses  where you are .

 

As I see it  your best  bet  would be to get   her father  to go and cut some grass ,and if  you can persuade him  cut some  of the tree legume  "gratin", but,  so I have been told  it does not grow well in Isan ,(here in  Lopburi ,me and the misses cut  about 70 kg  to day in  about  45 minuets. ).

 

If you have  a bit of time  look at  molasses   urea feed  blocks, on Google ,you can make them  your self ,plenty of  recipes , that would be a job  for you  when you come back to  Thailand, a good energy  source  for cattle .

 

As for the calf ,now 12 days old ,she looks bright  enough as I said  if she is suckling ok ,and has a gallop  about  now and then ,she should do  ok ,again what would help ,the calf ,make a small creep area ,a pen that only  the calf has access  to and feed her  some  calf  food ,in about   2  weeks she will be looking for some  solid  feed, when she starts  eating solid food , not rough grass,  she will start to put on some weight , again the  problem  of finding the feed .

 

 

Thank you all for your helpful tips once again.

 

The other cow just had its calf one hour ago.  

Unfortunately a bull.

The Thai girl is very happy as she now has five.

I originally bought the mother in the photo with her three week old calf for 30,000 bt in December 2013.

So this is turning out a good investment for the Thai girl.

[Cashboy]

Feeding within 2 hours:

[kickstart]

That looks a nice solid  calf  short ears, some  Thai  Native  blood in there ,some comes from  mum should do  ok ,mum  dose not have a very big udder ,again short  of  energy in the diet before  she calved ,again looking at  that "pasture", short of most things .

 

Compare  this calf with  the last one ,you can  see the breeding  in  the red calf  all ears and  legs ,from the Indo  Brazil  breed ,part of the  reason  the calf  is a bit on the thin side .

[Cashboy]

2 hours ago, kickstart said:

That looks a nice solid  calf  short ears, some  Thai  Native  blood in there ,some comes from  mum should do  ok ,mum  dose not have a very big udder ,again short  of  energy in the diet before  she calved ,again looking at  that "pasture", short of most things .

 

Compare  this calf with  the last one ,you can  see the breeding  in  the red calf  all ears and  legs ,from the Indo  Brazil  breed ,part of the  reason  the calf  is a bit on the thin side .

 

Actually,  I discovered that the picture I showed you of the bull that was hired to get them pregnant turned out to be gay, well it didn't get the mothers pregnant.

Both cows were artificially inseminated with sperm supplied by a vet so no idea what breed the calfs originate from.

 

The Thai girl bought salt rocks and stuff to add to the water a few weeks back.

She is going to go to the farm shop and see what else she can get them.

 

So any advise is appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cashboy]

White calf (boy) 16 hours old.  He looks beautiful.

 

 

Brown calf (girl) 3 weeks old.  Does she look healthy or is she too skinny?

 

Bull that is about 18 months old now

 

He has become quite dangerous because he used to play with the children when he was young and chase them round the field and nudge them.  The trouble is he still wants to play with them like this.

 

[kickstart]

Hi Cashboy

                     That white bull calf looks ok ,as for breed it would be  Brahman  I would say  it  was your local  DLD  office ,Department  Of  Livestock  Development ,  who  did the  AI  ,looking a  straw  of DLD beef semen  it has  AB wrote on  it ,which  would be  American  Bahaman , I know  the DLD has  brought  bulls from  SK farm   Pattaya   Ranch ,of  the best  Brahman  farms in the  country, and collect  the  semen  themselves, SK  farm has used  American  Brahman bulls for some  years.

 

The  little  heifer  calf looks ok ,looking at  the photo when it was  3 day old ,it has  filled  out ,and is growing a bit .

 

I  do not  know what  the stuff   that was added to the water  was ,maybe  a mineral /vitamin  supplement?.

 

As I said  before  what the cows  want  is some concentrate feed  ,get her to ask at the farm shop  if they  know  were to  buy  some   concentrate  feed ,or  some  molasses  ,just  a couple  of kg's  of something a day  would  do the cows some good ,if they  come on heat sooner ,and you can get them in calf sooner ,the cost  of the feed supplement  will pay for  its self .

 

As  for the bull  I would sell him  .you should never trust any bull  ,you just never  know ,  you could then  buy  a   beef  heifer ,and use AI  to get her in  calf , you could ask  30 000  baht for him ,and you will  probably get 25-27  000 baht , beef  prices  have dropped  over the past  few months   

 

 

[changside]

I find this subject very interesting. I am not Thai and my experience of Thai agriculture is very limited since I spend most of my time, when there, in the south west where there does not seem to be many cattle. My experience is in my own country which is obviously different. 

However, I have been following this and, looking at the photos, the heifer calf looks quite healthy if a bit thin.

Mineral and vitamin supplements are very beneficial if the feed is lacking in these but what the cow need is high protein feed. It can be in the form of grass or concentrates. Nothing else will work. Obviously, worm infestation can also be a problem. 

As already pointed out the sire of the calf may be a factor.  In horse breeding it is a bit like crossing a native pony with a thoroughbred. 

Incidentally, the values suggested for the animals and feed costs appear the be quite high in relation to rural income. Do these cattle fetch high prices and what are they used for? Beef, Beasts of burden? 

 

[kickstart]

18 hours ago, changside said:

I find this subject very interesting. I am not Thai and my experience of Thai agriculture is very limited since I spend most of my time, when there, in the south west where there does not seem to be many cattle. My experience is in my own country which is obviously different. 

However, I have been following this and, looking at the photos, the heifer calf looks quite healthy if a bit thin.

Mineral and vitamin supplements are very beneficial if the feed is lacking in these but what the cow need is high protein feed. It can be in the form of grass or concentrates. Nothing else will work. Obviously, worm infestation can also be a problem. 

As already pointed out the sire of the calf may be a factor.  In horse breeding it is a bit like crossing a native pony with a thoroughbred. 

Incidentally, the values suggested for the animals and feed costs appear the be quite high in relation to rural income. Do these cattle fetch high prices and what are they used for? Beef, Beasts of burden? 

 

 

You  are quite  right ,feed is what  both cows need ,especially the  1st calving heifer  she needs the feed to  grow as well as to feed the calf ,and try  to keep herself fertile  ,so you can get her back in calf ,in the dairy cow  world ,a 1st calving  heifer  needs up 20%  more  energy in the diet , to allow    for  growth   ,I would say  beef cattle would need a bit less ,but not that  much less .

The op is feeding  a mineral  block ,which are more   salt licks ,the one's we use are 98% salt  2% minerals  cattle do like them , but they can leave  cattle short  of some  minerals'  vitamins  are difficult   you can get what the Thais call a "pre-mix", that is a  powder ,vitamin  and mineral mix ,but it needs mixing with a  concentrate  .Now you can get  worm tablets, that you add to feed ,saves the hassle of catching and injecting  or drenching  the cattle.

I think  for the op would be a good quality grass  paddock/field   use a rotation  grazing system ,and   use some urea  fertilizer  with a  bit of concentrate in the dry season .

 As for Thai cattle I have wrote   before  about 10-12 years ago  the Indo  Brazil  breed was the  fashion   big time ,it was  the  length of the  ears  people where interested in  now they are still popular ,you still see  red Indo heifers and cows in calf  going for  40-70 000 baht ,but they are an intensive breed  and need  proper feeding to do any thing ,and now  most  beef herds  have some Indo  blood in them ,but they only this  rough  grazing  ,not  good enough for them ,hence  the thin calf .

What are Thai cattle used for ,have a look at a TV  thread "Why do Thai's keep cattle", they are a  bank in time of need ,just sell a few cattle ,for what  ever ,some are a status  thing . some end up on the market  slab , a lot stay in one area  and rotate  around that area, I would imagine   that they are cattle around ,4-5 year old heifers , not in calf  and cows that have  not had a calf  for a few years , hardly productive, but still worth a  bit on the hoof . 

The high  prices ,have been like it for a few years  now  beef at  a  Thai  market  is still 200 baht/kg +,and people are still  buying  it  at  that keeps the  cattle prices up  ,as  I  said    Indo cattle  prices are still high ,you look at   the price of   good quality  red Brahman cattle ,many go  for 50 000 + these cattle  will be  mainly used  for breeding ,owner  hoping to  make some money  buy selling  the offspring  cattle  for breeding.

Feed  prices are high, as most cattle feed is geared to the dairy industry ,your  CP and Betagro  make beef cattle feed ,along with more expensive   pig, poultry, fish and dairy cow feed , costs  will be the same, a lot of feed stuff is imported, at my local Betagro  feed mill ,nothing to see 40  trucks waiting to tip there  load  all  come up from the port in Bangkok ,  as I said I am feeding a  daubers 14% feed  ( what the  ME or TDN is   any one guess )  50kg bag 350 baht ,and that is cheap .

 

[Cashboy]

3 hours ago, kickstart said:

 

You  are quite  right ,feed is what  both cows need ,especially the  1st calving heifer  she needs the feed to  grow as well as to feed the calf ,and try  to keep herself fertile  ,so you can get her back in calf ,in the dairy cow  world ,a 1st calving  heifer  needs up 20%  more  energy in the diet , to allow    for  growth   ,I would say  beef cattle would need a bit less ,but not that  much less .

The op is feeding  a mineral  block ,which are more   salt licks ,the one's we use are 98% salt  2% minerals  cattle do like them , but they can leave  cattle short  of some  minerals'  vitamins  are difficult   you can get what the Thais call a "pre-mix", that is a  powder ,vitamin  and mineral mix ,but it needs mixing with a  concentrate  .Now you can get  worm tablets, that you add to feed ,saves the hassle of catching and injecting  or drenching  the cattle.

I think  for the op would be a good quality grass  paddock/field   use a rotation  grazing system ,and   use some urea  fertilizer  with a  bit of concentrate in the dry season .

 As for Thai cattle I have wrote   before  about 10-12 years ago  the Indo  Brazil  breed was the  fashion   big time ,it was  the  length of the  ears  people where interested in  now they are still popular ,you still see  red Indo heifers and cows in calf  going for  40-70 000 baht ,but they are an intensive breed  and need  proper feeding to do any thing ,and now  most  beef herds  have some Indo  blood in them ,but they only this  rough  grazing  ,not  good enough for them ,hence  the thin calf .

What are Thai cattle used for ,have a look at a TV  thread "Why do Thai's keep cattle", they are a  bank in time of need ,just sell a few cattle ,for what  ever ,some are a status  thing . some end up on the market  slab , a lot stay in one area  and rotate  around that area, I would imagine   that they are cattle around ,4-5 year old heifers , not in calf  and cows that have  not had a calf  for a few years , hardly productive, but still worth a  bit on the hoof . 

The high  prices ,have been like it for a few years  now  beef at  a  Thai  market  is still 200 baht/kg +,and people are still  buying  it  at  that keeps the  cattle prices up  ,as  I  said    Indo cattle  prices are still high ,you look at   the price of   good quality  red Brahman cattle ,many go  for 50 000 + these cattle  will be  mainly used  for breeding ,owner  hoping to  make some money  buy selling  the offspring  cattle  for breeding.

Feed  prices are high, as most cattle feed is geared to the dairy industry ,your  CP and Betagro  make beef cattle feed ,along with more expensive   pig, poultry, fish and dairy cow feed , costs  will be the same, a lot of feed stuff is imported, at my local Betagro  feed mill ,nothing to see 40  trucks waiting to tip there  load  all  come up from the port in Bangkok ,  as I said I am feeding a  daubers 14% feed  ( what the  ME or TDN is   any one guess )  50kg bag 350 baht ,and that is cheap .

 

A few observations:

I see people selling best joints of beef on the night markets for 500 bt per kilo and obviously not many people buying it as that is expensive in relation to a Thai income.

I cannot see there being a lot of beef on the cows I see in fields so thought these were justifiable prices.

The Thai girl has one bull, two mothering cows and two calfs.  In her village, she has the second largest herd now.  

The other family has 7 in the herd and they have no land and basically put them on other peoples land for feeding and even on the school playing field in the school holidays.

The Thai girl's  farm is only 20 rai basically 6 rai of rice ( jasmin and sticky) and 10 rai of sugar cane.  Some vegetables  and fruit trees and about a rai of ponds.

I have had built a shed for the cows ( 6.75 metres x 10 metres within the posts) that set me back so far 150,000 bt.  I had it built to this standard so that it can always be converted into a house. 

.

I now need to have some steel fencing and gates made.

Any idea how many cows I can keep in this building (68 M2 over night)?

Should it be split up for the bull etc?

 

The Thai girl went on a free government seminar last week in the village (probably agricuture department)

It was promting investment in cows.

They are offering loans to farmer families of up to 50,000 bt per cow to buy.

They were explaining what you need to keep them and about requiring only 1 rai per cow for growing grass to feed them.

I am in the UK at the moment and the Thai girl is working in Bangkok and going to the village for 3 days a week to look after her mother who is suffering from colon cancer and therefore doesn't have a lot of time.

Her father does go and cut grass for the cows occassionally and they often are fed with fruit including mangos and bananas.

Her village is 10 kms from Kumpawapi town centre.  I have been to the Agriculture shops in Kumpawapi in the past to look for and buy the salt rocks with minerals.  The Thai girl also bought some minerals to add to the water.

 

This cattle feed you talk about that we should feed 2 kilos per day to each mothering cow; can you tell me what it is called in Thai (maybe Thai letters) and brands and what kind of bags does it come in (i.e. plastic and weight of the bags ) and how much per bag so I can explain to the Thai girl.

If you say 50kgs is 350 bt; obviously that is 7bt per kilo x 2 kilos per day per cow is 14bt per day per cow which seems reasonable and if for 6 months => 2,520 bt per cow.

 

Getting molasses would probably not be a problem.  Her village is 500 metres from a huge sugar cane factory.  The rice mill is 300 metres away that collects rice for milling all round the village daily.  I will have to look into that possibly if I go in October for 4 weeks.

 

"As I see it  your best  bet  would be to get   her father  to go and cut some grass ,and if  you can persuade him  cut some  of the tree legume  "gratin", but,  so I have been told  it does not grow well in Isan ,(here in  Lopburi ,me and the misses cut  about 70 kg  to day in  about  45 minuets. ). "

How many cows are you feeding with 70 Kgs per day?

 

 

At first instance (forgetting the capital outlay of the shed etc) keeping a few beef cows on the farm would seem quite profitable for a Thai family if they are eating grass on the village tracks and rice stalks after harvest?

As I said I have only outlaid monies for the salt blocks and minerals in the last two years and the hire of a bull or artificial insemination and in three years the Thai girl has a bull, two grown cows and two calfs.

They appear to be part of the family (her kids love them) and really bring some life to a farm that would be boring otherwise.  I see it being a sad time when any of them are sent off for slaughter.  We always pray that they are going to have heiffers.

 

Now the Thai girl has given her notice in to her company in Bangkok (the CEO keeps asking her to stay and wouldn't sign acknowlegment of her resignation asking her to think about it ) in order to go back to the village to look after her ill mother, I intend to be living 2 months at a time, 3 times a year in the village so will have a bit of time to organise all this in a more professional way.

 

I am looking at buying the equipment to make water bore holes and pump the water out using solar panels.

That could make the farm able to produce so many crops and vegetables and fruit as well as digging the ponds deeper and keeping fish.

 

Thank you Kickstart for your advise, much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kickstart]

Hi Cashboy

                    The feed we use in Thai is อาหารผสมให้วัวเนือ้,  this is for a  mixed feed ,not a pelleted   food ,the one we  use is a lot cheaper than the  pelleted feed , also  most pelleted  feed is used for dairy cows ,CP  make a pelleted feed , our feed is mixed by a local  mill ,as I said  we live in a big dairy  area,( this area will send 100 ton of raw  milk  a day  to various    factories ) ,so we are not short  of  most  feeds   for cattle ,you might have to travel  to  find some  ,how dose  your Thai  girl  get  from BBK to home ,if she drives  she could  pick up a few bags of  feed  on her way home .

As I said you could  use  rice bran and  molasses , but with rice bran at 11 % protein   and about 10 baht kg , molasses  .round here is 8 baht kg ,like  you we have a sugar mill very close to us ,but it is only 4%  protein ,the two mixed together  will give you a protein of about  7-8%,for a price of a 14-16 % feed ,but you will  not  have the  hassle   of  driving a long way looking for feed .most of the mixed  feed come is 50kg bags , and most of the pelleted feed ,CP are  now making  a dairy feed  in 30kg bags , a few years  ago  one company used  the big rice sacks ,they where  90kg per bag , now no more.

We only have 13 cattle at the moment ,5 cows .3 big  heifers and  an 9 month old bull ,+ 4 calves ,at this time with all the rain  cutting  gratin  is not difficult ,plenty about ,but  during the dry  season   it can take  well over an hour, but  it is a good feed ,the leaves are  about 22 %  protein

 

How many cattle can you fit in your shed ,they are  web sights  that will tell  you ,but  your cattle  have horns  , when you start feeding any form of feed in the shed, they will be some bulling and fighting among  the cattle ,so your best  bet is to split the shed in  two ,if  possible  the  cow with  horns  feed her on her own .and  make a  small pen at the back of the shed  ,that only gives access   to the calves ,and put  some feed in they ,for the calves, but if you do  feed the calves  ,use a calf  feed ,as the cow feed ,might  have urea in it ,and the pelleted feed almost   certainly will  have urea in , it is a good feed , but young calves  can  not  digest  urea ( feed companies  use urea ,a cheap way  to push the protein of a feed up ).

 

[Amsterdam]

Hi Guy's,

I am also interested in this topic and have been looking into Fodder as method to feed the cattle. Since the cheapest seeds around is rice I wast thinking to make primarily rice fodder. I would probably work some other fodder types in the feed like soya and corn. I would need to find a balance between hay and fodder.

 

Right now the cattle is eating mostly hay and grass. 

 

Hope this is gives you guy's some food for thought 

Cheers

Amsterdam

[kickstart]

Hi  Amsterdam.

                            Your  right in  your thinking about making your own  fodder  ,most  dairy  farmers   buy in all they fodder ,mainly  rice straw, and maize  silage, at a cost  I am  intrigued   about  rice  fodder ,do you mean  rice straw, as a feed , or making  the hole rice plant  in to silage ,in the uk  whole crop  silage has been  made for dairy  cattle  with a lot of  success ,using mainly  barley  and wheat  ,rice  would  work ,but the field must be free of water ,not easy  in a rice  paddy , sand  land  is easier  to do  than  some heavy land .

Rice straw as a feed is not good at best 4%  protein ,low  energy level's ,and  low vitamins and minerals ,most dairy farmer  feed rice straw  ,but  cows do not milk  well ,so  a lot of  Concentra's  must be feed ,to get any production,  a big cost ,can cause  gut  problems ,and cows  can get over fat ,leading to an  infertility  problem .

Using  soya  or corn  is ok  ,but  with soya at about 25 baht/kg and  ground  maize at about  10 baht /kg   that is going to be an expensive  feed ,I did  some calculation's in to a  soya ,maize ,and barley/wheat  mix ,protein  was  good 16% ,and the energy  leave's  where good ,so was the price ,about 50% more than a  company  brought  concentrate mix.

 

Look at  growing some good quality  grass, not easy but it can be done  ,and then  you can feed something like  a 14% mixed feed , or a 14% feed and mix  some soya to the feed  , some dairy  farmers  do that  with  freshly  calved cows ,they seem to milk  ok  ,and come on heat  a lot quicker  than  cows that do not get feed soya ,but  costs  have to be worked out ,or it could become  expensive  with I do not  know  where you are but if you can  feed some  ,Leucaena  Leucocephala   the tree legume,  Gratin ,in Thai  cattle  would do well on  it  .

[Amsterdam]

Hi Kickstart,

 

I was thinking more of going the Hydroponic route.. there are some interesting videos on Youtube. My understanding is that 1 kilo of seeds can become 5 kilo of fresh green fodder in 7 day's. If you plan to make a new batch every day you can feed your cows. I will probably start this next year when I am going to spend a lot more time in Thailand. I don't think that I would leave this process of growing fodder to the in laws. for now I will let them cut grass by hand to feed the cows 15-20 kind of lost count. 

 

Cheers

Amsterdam

 

 

 

[jvs]

We did this to keep cows from chasing away other cows,each has her on spot and we lock them for a few hours twice a day.

Also is good when you give them extra feed,again no problem for slower eaters.

Using the same system to give injections or for AI.