Government calms down Isaan rubber farmers' rising concern

[webfact]

Northeastern rubber planters will boycott rubber products from three companies

 

 

BANGKOK: -- Northeastern rubber planters’ associations are to launch a campaign to encourage their members in 20 provinces in the Northeast to boycott rubber products from two rubber producers and to stop selling their products to a Thai rubber trading firm.

 

Mr Veerasak Sinthuwong, spokesman of the Rubber Network Council and Rubber Planters Institute, said Friday that the associations were disappointed with an allegation from two major manufacturers of rubber products, Bridgestone and Michelin, and a Thai rubber trading firm, Sri Trang Agro Industry, that northeastern rubber plants used sulfuric acid in the process of making cup lump rubber which, they said, made the tyres they produced substandard.

 

The three companies also said they would not buy rubber produced from the Northeast, said Mr Veerasak.

 

Full story: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/northeastern-rubber-planters-will-boycott-rubber-products-three-companies/

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2016-09-02

[BuaBS]

Ok , my next tyres will be Bridgestone or Michelin.

As for condoms .... just kidding , I don't use comdoms

[kannot]

On 9/1/2016 at 3:21 PM, lucky11 said:

 

 Makes it coagulate quicker. 

 

 If they allowed it to coagulate normally (as they do in the South) - they could produce decent quality natural rubber and wouldn't have to fork out and buy the sulphuric acid.

 

 They have a habit up in the North (East) of carrying out inexplicable practices that defy common sense.

 

 Don't plant rice seed in the drought months - OK, I'll plant rice in the drought months!! Why have they all wilted?

 

 At least they are diversifying into planting other crops now - well they are generally, but not sure about in the North.

 

its  not  just the north, round by me Prachuap the driest area of Thailand theyll try growing bananas which need a lot of water, in fact  i saw a whole field planted in two separate  locations, in the dry season, never watered and all dead within 2-3 months?????? go figure..bizarre!

[kannot]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

Northeastern rubber planters will boycott rubber products from three companies

 

 

BANGKOK: -- Northeastern rubber planters’ associations are to launch a campaign to encourage their members in 20 provinces in the Northeast to boycott rubber products from two rubber producers and to stop selling their products to a Thai rubber trading firm.

 

Mr Veerasak Sinthuwong, spokesman of the Rubber Network Council and Rubber Planters Institute, said Friday that the associations were disappointed with an allegation from two major manufacturers of rubber products, Bridgestone and Michelin, and a Thai rubber trading firm, Sri Trang Agro Industry, that northeastern rubber plants used sulfuric acid in the process of making cup lump rubber which, they said, made the tyres they produced substandard.

 

The three companies also said they would not buy rubber produced from the Northeast, said Mr Veerasak.

 

Full story: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/northeastern-rubber-planters-will-boycott-rubber-products-three-companies/

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2016-09-02

Thats the spirit, because "you" added some crap into your rubber, and because "you" dont like being told its substandard crap.......what do "you" do to fix the problem??.........go running and squealing like a spoilt  little  brat about " boycotting" the manufacturers............huh I hope u all go bankrupt if you arent already.....never  learn never  will.

[GOLDBUGGY]

They add sulfur to natural rubber to vulcanize it, which they need to do to make tires. Charles Goodyear discovered this process many years ago. So I am a bit confused why sulfuric acid would do any harm at all. Maybe the P.H has something to do with this but the sulfur itself shouldn't harm anything. Go Figure?

[BigBadGeordie]

Bridgestone.

3,580.00JPY2.00 (0.06%)

Sep 2, 3:00 PM GMT+9 - Disclaimer

 

Michelin.

96.00EUR1.18 (1.24%)

Sep 2, 5:37 PM GMT+2 - Disclaimer

 

Well that worked, looks like the world markets are shiting thenselves after this threat was issued.

 

[maoro2013]

Mostly it is formic acid that is added and this was encouraged by the authorities, apparently giving higher quality rubber.

 

It was wrong statement made by another member yesterday who said that the southern planters didn't add acid and let the latex coagulate naturally. The southern planters also use formic acid, some may use sulphuric as it works faster at setting the latex. There is more rain  in the southern areas and therefore the likelihood of the sulphuric being used there is more likely than in the lower rainfall north east. If the latex has not set and rain comes, the nights production will be lost.

 

I agree that some planters in the north east use the sulphuric, for the reason previously stated, I have done a little bit of research over the last day, but most use formic.

 

To target the north east with these allegations would seem to be, in my opinion, ridiculous. I would be happy if someone could come up with some numbers about the use of sulphuric acid, especially with a statistical relationship between southern rubber and NE rubber, which has given rise to this situation. I use formic acid as do everyone else I know who grows rubber for a living. I have tried to research this but so far have failed to unearth any useful information, if in fact it exists at all. I also rent shops to people who sell agricultural supplies, and they sell very little sulphuric compared to the 94% formic.

 

I would suggest that all of Thai rubber is suspect and to single out the NE is wrong, for reasons stated above.

 

I am also very suspicious of the reporting of this. I will be checking the prices received in different areas today, if I can. If there is a significant variation between southern and NE then I may reconsider what I have said, although I know that the price aid in Rayong is better than our local prices, but this does not reflect local quality as truckloads go from the NE to Rayong to profit from the arbritrage.

 

It interests me due to my investment in the industry.

[Toknarok]

   Interesting post Maoro. Many years ago I considered planting rubber trees when the price was up to 80 baht a kilo. Trouble was everybody else was planting the trees also. The wait of 7 years didn't worry me, the yearly income wasn't important, but I was somewhat dubious about over-production with everybody planting trees. My fears were well founded, there's too much rubber being produced, at one stage it dropped to 11 baht a kilo, but has risen to around 25 baht today.

   Some members of my family have been tapping rubber for the 30 plus years that I have known them. I have NEVER seen or heard of the using sulphuric acid to help coagulation. Nor have I heard of anyone else using it. Formic acid yes, it's used all the time around here.

   Please keep us posted as to your enquiries about the relevant rubber prices North versus South and your investigation into the use (if any) of sulphuric acid.

[robblok]

35 minutes ago, maoro2013 said:

Mostly it is formic acid that is added and this was encouraged by the authorities, apparently giving higher quality rubber.

 

It was wrong statement made by another member yesterday who said that the southern planters didn't add acid and let the latex coagulate naturally. The southern planters also use formic acid, some may use sulphuric as it works faster at setting the latex. There is more rain  in the southern areas and therefore the likelihood of the sulphuric being used there is more likely than in the lower rainfall north east. If the latex has not set and rain comes, the nights production will be lost.

 

I agree that some planters in the north east use the sulphuric, for the reason previously stated, I have done a little bit of research over the last day, but most use formic.

 

To target the north east with these allegations would seem to be, in my opinion, ridiculous. I would be happy if someone could come up with some numbers about the use of sulphuric acid, especially with a statistical relationship between southern rubber and NE rubber, which has given rise to this situation. I use formic acid as do everyone else I know who grows rubber for a living. I have tried to research this but so far have failed to unearth any useful information, if in fact it exists at all. I also rent shops to people who sell agricultural supplies, and they sell very little sulphuric compared to the 94% formic.

 

I would suggest that all of Thai rubber is suspect and to single out the NE is wrong, for reasons stated above.

 

I am also very suspicious of the reporting of this. I will be checking the prices received in different areas today, if I can. If there is a significant variation between southern and NE then I may reconsider what I have said, although I know that the price aid in Rayong is better than our local prices, but this does not reflect local quality as truckloads go from the NE to Rayong to profit from the arbritrage.

 

It interests me due to my investment in the industry.

 

I am sure that the buyers of rubber know better than you. They would not single out a certain area if the problem was not more prevalent there. These are foreign companies just protecting the quality of their tires. What do they have to win to single out the NE unless its true ?

 

Ask yourself what do they have to win by spreading lies and not wanting to buy NE rubber ? 

[Srikcir]

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

what do they have to win by spreading lies

Discount pricing?

[robblok]

Just now, Srikcir said:

Discount pricing?

 

No because they don't want to use it its not suited for their tires. It would bring down the quality of their tires and that would be bad for their brand name. 

[maoro2013]

36 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

I am sure that the buyers of rubber know better than you. They would not single out a certain area if the problem was not more prevalent there. These are foreign companies just protecting the quality of their tires. What do they have to win to single out the NE unless its true ?

 

Ask yourself what do they have to win by spreading lies and not wanting to buy NE rubber ? 

I am really questioning the accuracy of the reporting rather than what tyre manufacturers have said, or may have said. For reasons quoted previously, I don't believe the quality of the rubber varies very much across the country, but I am further researching this.

[Doc46]

13 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

They add sulfur to natural rubber to vulcanize it, which they need to do to make tires. Charles Goodyear discovered this process many years ago. So I am a bit confused why sulfuric acid would do any harm at all. Maybe the P.H has something to do with this but the sulfur itself shouldn't harm anything. Go Figure?

They ad the sulfuric acid for gaining extra weight,the acid is adding itself to the rubber, adding to much acid will make the rubber Brittle and will be substandard for Tires,,,Just greed syndrome ,ones they have got it you can't cure it,,,,

[artisans]

The addition of Sulphuric acid speeds up the coagulation process.

The acid helps the elasticity and acid resistance of the rubber.

BUT adding to much acid causes the rubber to go brittle.

So not really a problem of adding sulphuric acid but the addition of to much.

[somo]

Thailand has history in shooting itself in the foot whatever the industry.

Last year China stopped importing cassava from here because of it's low quality which was, I have been told but don't know for sure, due to the addition of dirt to boost the weight. 

I am not surprised the rubber producers are doing the same thing.

[lucky11]

16 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

They add sulfur to natural rubber to vulcanize it, which they need to do to make tires. Charles Goodyear discovered this process many years ago. So I am a bit confused why sulfuric acid would do any harm at all. Maybe the P.H has something to do with this but the sulfur itself shouldn't harm anything. Go Figure?

 

 Sulphuric acid is not sulphur (vulcanising agent) used in conjunction with ZnO2 and accelerators for curing the rubber!! It (sulphuric acid) is used and is OK as long as he dilution and mixing is correct. Formic (acetic acid) is considered a safer bet though as this is a weak acid and will have potentially less of a detrimental affect on the rubber properties when ammonia (weak base) is added for storage stability.

 Also, sulphuric acid can promote crystallisation of the rubber domains which will impact the tensile strength, modulus and elongation adversely ie: the three important properties of rubber.

[partington]

9 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 Sulphuric acid is not sulphur (vulcanising agent) used in conjunction with ZnO2 and accelerators for curing the rubber!! It (sulphuric acid) is used and is OK as long as he dilution and mixing is correct. Formic (acetic acid) is considered a safer bet though as this is a weak acid and will have potentially less of a detrimental affect on the rubber properties when ammonia (weak base) is added for storage stability.

 Also, sulphuric acid can promote crystallisation of the rubber domains which will impact the tensile strength, modulus and elongation adversely ie: the three important properties of rubber.

Even an O-level chemistry student (age 15) would know that formic acid and acetic acid are not the same compound.

Formic acid HCOOH

Acetic acid CH3COOH

[thaiguzzi]

# Sulphuric is nasty stuff neat, prior to dilution, burns the skin, straight to hospital if it's splashed in your eyes. just try spilling a bit, neat, on concrete and watch the effect. Imagine, even after dilution what effect long term it has on the bark of the tree. It is sold only in glass bottles and is dirt cheap.

# Formic you can put your hand in it, neat, to no ill effect. Sold in plastic bottles or containers. More expensive.

# Dilution levels for both are very different.

# Up until 2-3 years ago, sulphuric was vastly cheaper than formic, but formic has come way down in price. The dilution levels still make sulphuric a much cheaper option as do the much quicker coagulation effect.

# However, we have NEVER used the stuff, and i doubt more than 5% off rubber tappers/owners in Isaan have. They all know it's shIt and not good for the trees long term.

# I, too have my doubts about the politics behind this statement from the manufacturers.

[lucky11]

10 minutes ago, partington said:

Even an O-level chemistry student (age 15) would know that formic acid and acetic acid are not the same compound.

Formic acid HCOOH

Acetic acid CH3COOH

 Yes, you are correct, it should have been methanoic acid not acetic!!

 

 Acetic acid has a methyl bond rather than a hydrogen ion.

 

 In my defence, I've been retired for 8 years!!

Edited September 3, 2016 by lucky11

[partington]

34 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 Yes, you are correct, it should have been methanoic acid not acetic!!

 

 Acetic acid has a methyl bond rather than a hydrogen ion.

 

 In my defence, I've been retired for 8 years!!

 No acetic acid doesn't have a methyl bond instead of a hydrogen ion!!  It has a methyl GROUP instead of a hydrogen ATOM.

 

The hydrogen ion in organic acids is the hydrogen at the other end! The hydrogen  and methyl groups defining these acids are not ionic, they are covalently attached as a permanent part of the molecule. The hydrogen ion is found in both molecules and is what causes them to be acids, as they release this hydrogen ion in solution.

 

This is fundamental! It's baffling that you claim to be a chemist and don't know this. I'm beginning to doubt your qualifications!

 

CH3 -----------COO -        H+         ACETIC ACID 

methyl                           hydrogen

group                             ion

                       

H--------------COO-           H+        FORMIC ACID 

hydrogen                      hydrogen

atom                             ion

Edited September 3, 2016 by partington
format

[lucky11]

13 minutes ago, partington said:

 No acetic acid doesn't have a methyl bond instead of a hydrogen ion!!  It has a methyl GROUP instead of a hydrogen ATOM.

 

The hydrogen ion in organic acids is the hydrogen at the other end! The hydrogen  and methyl groups defining these acids are not ionic, they are covalently attached as a permanent part of the molecule. The hydrogen ion is found in both molecules and is what causes them to be acids, as they release this hydrogen ion in solution.

 

This is fundamental! It's baffling that you claim to be a chemist and don't know this. I'm beginning to doubt your qualifications!

 

CH3 -----------COO -        H+         ACETIC ACID 

methyl                           hydrogen

group                             ion

                       

H--------------COO-           H+        FORMIC ACID 

hydrogen                      hydrogen

atom                             ion

 

 I have to admit that I was more of a 'hands on practical chemist' and didn't bother reading up on irrelevant equation based chemistry. I spent 31 years designing specialised synthetic emulsion polymers for various applications in the synthetic rubber industry. I never, ever, read chemistry books as I worked on my experience gained from years of my understanding of monomers, chain transfer agents, cross linkers, surfactants, electrolytes etc: in how they interact and how they affected the various properties of the polymers that I made.

 The theoretical chemists with PhD's that came into the company were totally useless and a waste of time. ALL of my bosses left me alone to do my own thing as they knew that they had nothing worthwhile to add to my work.

[partington]

Well this tells me you have no scientific qualifications at all.

 

Nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong in claiming qualifications you don't have...

[lucky11]

Just now, partington said:

Well this tells me you have no scientific qualifications at all.

 

Nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong in claiming qualifications you don't have...

 

Just now, partington said:

Well this tells me you have no scientific qualifications at all.

 

Nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong in claiming qualifications you don't have...

 

 What qualifications did I, at any time, claim I had? I had an ONC and HNC in chemistry which are just as worthless as a degree, masters or PhD in chemistry. TBH they were a complete waste of time regards how I performed at my job. To me, qualifications are nothing compared to being practical and proficient at what you do. 

[Winniedapu]

"Government calm down Isaan rubber farmers' rising concern"

 

Should read:

 

"Government attempts to calm down Isaan rubber farmers' rising concern"

 

Winnie

 

[sahibji]

On 02/09/2016 at 5:35 PM, BuaBS said:

Ok , my next tyres will be Bridgestone or Michelin.

As for condoms .... just kidding , I don't use comdoms

surely the quality of the tyres can be tested to prove allegations or otherwise.

[lucky11]

10 hours ago, sahibji said:

surely the quality of the tyres can be tested to prove allegations or otherwise.

 

 They clearly have been as the buyers of the rubber are saying that the manufacturers have seen a drop off in performance and are unwilling to buy sub standard latex from them. If they are claiming it is not performing well then this has been through testing.

[Srikcir]

3 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

this has been through testing

Then as a matter of courtesy to trade relations between China and Thailand and perhaps international diplomacy, release the test results so that the Thai government can effectively followup with remedies.

Unless of course such tests may not be conclusive.