Tenant refuses to pay rent, refuses to leave resort

[ttthailand]

I have been here 20+ years with businesses. Police can assist but it will cost you. Lawyer will also cost as he will try to make as much as possible for himself. But you have to do something quickly.
I have learned to never trust anyone and you have to keep the upper hand in all deals. That is why you have to pay a two month deposit up front for an apartment. Did you get any deposit up front in case he pulled something like this. What if he left and didn't pay the electric, you have a deposit to cover this ? I would have required at least an additional 120k Baht as a deposit. Business is not always fair as people will take advantage by nature if they see a way to do it, close all loopholes and keep in control. I guess you took the easy quick way to get someone to lease the business, poor contract and no 2 month deposit to cover damages, and thus now paying the price. Live and learn ! Just be careful as life is cheap in Thailand and things can end up very bad quickly. Don't do anything stupid as your life is more important than money.

[simon43]

@ttthailand, thanks for your advice. I'm very much aware that life is cheap - very cheap if you pay a Burmese to do your dirty work.  So I am lying low and will not visit the resort in person until this matter is all settled.  Even then, it raises a big question mark as to whether I would want to continue to reside in this area with this guy and his cronies just down the road.

 

 

[1FinickyOne]

8 hours ago, SoiBiker said:

It seems that you have been able to successfully discover quite a lot about this guy - his drug habits, chosen lifestyle, associates etc.

 

Rather unfortunate that you weren't diligent enough to conduct this research before you allowed him access to the property. 

 

Many people are adept at covering their faults and bad intentions or even begin such a venture with good intentions... sometimes it can be difficult to check on a person's character beforehand. But a lesson/reminder to all of us. 

[Strange]

I mean on what planet is it OK to do stuff like this? 

 

Never mind vetting, forget the drug use/guns, there was a written contract agreement witch is not being upheld and the police are like nope not my problem. 

 

Ok get a lawyer and a court date... Aaaaand they don't show up. Who is gonna make them? Clearly the law should but nope again. 

 

This kind of thing is always going to happen here because the thais have no accountability for their actions. 

 

Anyway you know what to do, keep the thread updated and I hope you can get your business back. 

[Don Mega]

12 hours ago, simon43 said:

.

 

Anyway, this is going to cost me money, time and reputation.

Ask the guy how me wants to vacate the premises.

[whatproblem]

11 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

Ask the guy how me wants to vacate the premises.

Possibly the quickest cheapest way and all walk away happy or pay to have him removed 

[gemguy]

16 hours ago, Anthony5 said:

How long do you live in Thailand.

 

"Friend up" a Thai policeman, pay him the required friendship fee, and he will get the guy out faster than you can say get out of here.

Generally a good idea but advised you obtain the commitment from the police officer to remove the man first and then make the agreed upon payment to the officer after...as in, do not fall for the money upfront scam and then they tell you:

My Die....Kaw-Tawt.....My Die......Chuwoy Koon My Di Na Cap....after you have given them money.

 

Just for fun I would go around to as many police officers as possible and ask them on behalf of someone else that you know that supposedly has "this problem" and how much would it cost to have someone evict a scam artist off the property...for your "friend" that is ....as in, Just Asking.

Also your wife or trusted Thai female friend ??????.......could ask and probably accomplish more than you could with the police as the Thais have this way of charming police officers into helping them...Thai way, Thai style

 

Then you can formulate a better possible plan ...but.... be aware that when you pull the police into your affairs, all too often the plan can run amuck because now you have the police scrutinizing you and sizing you up and how much money you may have and how vulnerable you are and how easily they could milk you for now..... or in the future.

 

If anything you will learn what could be done or could not be accomplished while you make a list of new police officer connections that you may be comfortable with and take the chance that one of them or some of them would help you and do it hassle free....but for a fee.

 

Cheers

Edited September 11, 2016 by gemguy

[KarenBravo]

How about just paying this guy to go?

Yes, I know, it's pusillanimous and repellent, but, it just might be the cheapest way out that will still allow you to live in the area.

Ask your lawyer.

 

Have followed your "adventures" over the years, from the psychotic wives to the building of hotels.

You have my sympathies as you seem to be a truly nice guy and that is the root of your problems.  

[Kabula]

Remove the front door and hand him the keys!

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, ttthailand said:

I have been here 20+ years with businesses. Police can assist but it will cost you. Lawyer will also cost as he will try to make as much as possible for himself. But you have to do something quickly.
I have learned to never trust anyone and you have to keep the upper hand in all deals. That is why you have to pay a two month deposit up front for an apartment. Did you get any deposit up front in case he pulled something like this. What if he left and didn't pay the electric, you have a deposit to cover this ? I would have required at least an additional 120k Baht as a deposit. Business is not always fair as people will take advantage by nature if they see a way to do it, close all loopholes and keep in control. I guess you took the easy quick way to get someone to lease the business, poor contract and no 2 month deposit to cover damages, and thus now paying the price. Live and learn ! Just be careful as life is cheap in Thailand and things can end up very bad quickly. Don't do anything stupid as your life is more important than money.

My initial thought on reading the OP was that he should move back to the resort and tell all the occupants to pay him directly, rather than the new 'manager'.  But the emboldened part made me realise that this could be a very bad idea indeed .

 

KarenBravo is probably right - easier, safer and cheaper to pay him off.

[csabo]

This is the worst decision followed by the worst outcome since I got married but I guess we all make mistakes.  My only advise is that if you want to eradicate a pest, human or not, your will must overpower his.  I would apply constant pressure even if it meant hiring people to pressure this guy.  Keep the pressure on until he relents.  Every day you relax, he relaxes and digs in deeper and creates more damage.  Video every encounter and property inspection. 

[NickJ]

Relax and deep breaths until you see your lawyer. Don't do any kind of knee jerking you will regret later.

Maybe there are different laws pertaing to commercial vs residential leasing.

Yeah, maybe the owner and your original lease has loopholes you and he can use.

Hope your in well with the owner.

Good luck.

[csabo]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

 

...as is research and caution.

[Scouse123]

It's a hell of a job to get people out of property when they are already in , in Europe never mind Thailand!!!

 

1. Speak to your lawyer and tell her you need appointment at the crack of dawn tomorrow and go through the story, also your ideas on police involvement ( paying them ) and seek her opinion.

2. Get the local newspapers, press, TV and radio involved. Thais in authority hate this, especially negative publicity on the part of the island as a whole. MASSIVE EMPHASIS to be put on the loss of custom and the Chinese complaints and threats with a gun.

3. Get the aforementioned press to meet you handing in your complaint to the local police station live on TV. Get your wife girlfriend involved explaining everything clearly in language they understand.

4.Make sure you turn off utilities and inform they you do not want them switched back on until you personally visit them with your wife as this guy is illegally occupying your properties.

5.If a deal is done with local law enforcement, make sure you do a deal with the man in charge not the local sergeant/corporal. This prevents the small police getting their feet under the table. The major and Colonels are frequently moved to different jobs in their chase for promotion, they will accept this ' small annoyance of a job '  especially if there is a chance of a TV interview, but they won't hang around to keep coming back for more as your case is too small fry for the bother.

6. Take advice from lawyer before getting landlord to repossess or its a can of worms. Once you have invited him to foreclose by not paying, he could kick you out as well and take over the whole lot himself, in fact, he probably would and then blame his ' wife, family, mother-in-law '  anybody but himself for not handing it back to you. If it got really sticky, he would say you broke the lease conditions.

7. Do not go to bars/restaurants or any places you use as routine! Not trying to scare you, but break your routine.Do not make it easy where if these thugs ask your whereabouts, somebody can point them in the right direction as this leaves you open.

8. Mention privately to police but not publicly before the cameras about his Krathom use. Make sure any damage to resort is filmed and out there for all to see.

9. Do not or ever go to see him alone or just you and your wife/gf. Do not put your partner in harms way where you have drug people with guns whose response can be unpredictable.

10. Ask the lawyer the FASTEST WAY legal way to make life difficult for him, one that is empowering visits from local authorities and police and "grease the wheels as necessary ". If they have seen that you are standing up and not afraid to involve the press and TV, the bribes are usually less and more appreciatively received.

 

 

This will be a lot quicker to get your property back as opposed to awaiting a civil court action.

[williamgeorgeallen]

17 hours ago, Anthony5 said:

How long do you live in Thailand.

 

"Friend up" a Thai policeman, pay him the required friendship fee, and he will get the guy out faster than you can say get out of here.

this is good advice. the key is to get the highest police officer you can find. i asked around my thai staff and managed to get a level 3 cop. from what i understand they start at 1 at the top and go down to the bottom level 10. all sounds a bit odd but that is how it was explained to me. anyway he wanted 2000thb/month but we got him down to 1000thb/month. they come put a red letterbox on the front of your premises and it has a book which they come sign every few days. get that letter box and then you have the police giving you some backing. my thai staff actually told me to do this when we opened 9 years ago and i thought it was a waste of money, i quickly changed my mind.

[williamgeorgeallen]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

I mean on what planet is it OK to do stuff like this? 

 

Never mind vetting, forget the drug use/guns, there was a written contract agreement witch is not being upheld and the police are like nope not my problem. 

 

Ok get a lawyer and a court date... Aaaaand they don't show up. Who is gonna make them? Clearly the law should but nope again. 

 

This kind of thing is always going to happen here because the thais have no accountability for their actions. 

 

Anyway you know what to do, keep the thread updated and I hope you can get your business back. 

the legal system is a disaster here and is going to drain you probably to the point where you just give up. cops are your best bet. an upfront fee for when the job is done and then a small ongoing payment for ongoing protection. please trust me on this one. see my post above.

[bangkapi]

R.I.P. to you if you make the wrong move. Or even the right move perceived wrongly.

[Oxx]

33 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

2. Get the local newspapers, press, TV and radio involved. Thais in authority hate this, especially negative publicity on the part of the island as a whole. MASSIVE EMPHASIS to be put on the loss of custom and the Chinese complaints and threats with a gun.

 

Not necessarily a good idea considering Thailand's laws on defamation.  Even if what you say is 100% accurate, you can still be sued and fined/imprisoned; that you were truthful is no defence.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Relax and deep breaths until you see your lawyer. Don't do any kind of knee jerking you will regret later.

Maybe there are different laws pertaing to commercial vs residential leasing.

Yeah, maybe the owner and your original lease has loopholes you and he can use.

Hope your in well with the owner.

Good luck.

As the OP has pointed out - it will take a very long time to go through the courts.

[Scouse123]

I very much doubt it as you are pointing to something which damages the country.

 

Easy to avoid naming him directly although even if you did, I think damage to country's reputation would trump a drug dealing gun merchant. Anyway, that's what his lawyer is there to advise on.

 

There are certain times people can be named regardless of these defamation laws.This was like the girl attacked and the guy tried to rape her who fell down the mountain. The point was raised about defamation in this case, If that was the case, every criminal caught and in the newspaper can claim defamation!!!

 

I am certain and think many foreigners with little knowledge misinterpret the defamation laws and what they mean as well as purpose of them.

[ncc1701d]

Perhaps follow up with the Chinese embassy and get pressure from them to local authorities. (?)

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, gandalf12 said:

Just pay a couple if local lads to have him removed. I sure they would take care of it for you

Assuming you mean removed from the resort - as somebody else pointed out, that could be a very dangerous move indeed....

[Tony125]

6 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

But in hindsight your supposed to learn from your mistakes. As other poster mention we have been following your adventures for years seeming like one mistake after another. This is probably the same hotel you stated was taking up too much of your time and you had a good day manager but night manager wasn't so good or vice versa and you were wondering to get another manager or find someone to take over. So you tried to solve your problem  maybe a bit lazy by just having a guy lease the hotel from you and let him deal with management problem. Well he managed it by running it into the ground.

You need to talk to your lawyer and go over with police and take pictures and document the current condition of hotel so he doesn't trash the place and then say hey this is how I got it. AS I said being lazy not checking this guy out doing lease on the cheap by getting lease agreement you can buy at a stationary store instead of using a lawyer is going to cost you in the long run.

 

6 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

 

[NickJ]

Fly off the handle here and go to prison. Get deported or worse.

Thais don't make good criminals,  if something goes wrong they tell the cops everything. Then go off pointing. 

[gandalf12]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Assuming you mean removed from the resort - as somebody else pointed out, that could be a very dangerous move indeed....

Of course from the resort, that us where the problem is

[dick dasterdly]

I feel very sorry for the OP as he knows that the new 'lessee' has police friends and that legal action will take a very long time.

 

Meanwhile he is losing out on (possibly) his main income.

 

Its sad and unfortunate - but if Simon can afford it, his best option is likely to be to pay the 'lessee' enough money to go away without the lessee feeling 'hard done by'  and seeking retaliation.

 

Yes, I know its ridiculous that the lessee should feel 'hard done by' - but we're not talking about a normal person here....

[madusa]

Whatever you do be careful. I hate to say this but sometimes murder comes into the picture in cases like these. I believe Thailand like Laos are places you go for short holidays not for investing money and doing business deal.

I know Thais and Laotians will hate me for saying this, I know them well enough to know they are crafty. The deal always look good, it's a bait.

I really like to set up a forum on Thai Visa for people who have been cheated in any business deal to air their grievances and to warn others . Please if someone can help to set up this forum.

I was almost cheated in a small business deal but because I was not greedy the set up fail. If you are greedy you sure fall for their trap.

If you stay in these 2 countries long enough you will finally awaken to the fact that their whole idea of business is to rip off foreigners with the help of their police, lawyers and thugs .  The anger still remain when you realize you nearly fall for their trap. I know I sound prejudice but when you realize the bloody whole country gang up on you, then it's too late.

[Global Guy]

I hope I can share a few tidbits of my experience to shed light moving forward on this. In my 15+ years here, I have lived through the following (this is my experience, not opinions):

.

1) There is very little rule of law in general

2) Rule of law protecting a foreigner is pretty much nonexistant.

3) Rule of law protecting a foreigner against a Thai is zero.

 

Again, this is what I personally experienced in both criminal and civil situations with both myself alone and also with my Thai gf against other Thais. There are exceptions, but so is winning the lotterybut I don't like to wait on exceptions.

 

This is why the investment group I lead and I decided against investing in Thailand. We run legit businesses (not in the bar scene) and can't see rolling the dice here. I won't even buy a condo here. it's just not worth it.

 

So, disregard the long shot chance that the law, police, courts, lawyers, or this guy, in general, will do anything according to the law. You cannot fight the DNA of this country. Even if you were Thai, you being right according to the law isn't a guarantee for justice.

 

There are no good options here, just a few bad ones. You will have to either protect your property yourself or wait on corrupt and lazy people to do it for you. Which choice do you think is more realistic?

 

Start chaining up gates, changing locks on doors, turning off utilities, etc. Somehow barricade the main entrance. Buy an old car, park it in front of the entrance to block it and leave it there. Just keep securing the property. If you prefer, do it when he is gone for safety sake. If he asks what you're doing, just tell him your fixing up the property, that it needs work.

 

Also, keep calling the police and report the illegal activities. I'd also write letters to every newspaper you can and tell them the police are ignoring a drug lab (this one is a long shot too, I know).

 

Some will disagree with all of this and that's fine. If the guy gets physical with you, also call the police and report any assault/battery behavior. Start that paper trail and also it gets them annoyed at coming so they may eventually do something (another long shot).

 

I had a situation at one of my properties (not in Thailand) where a tenant who owed me money refused to leave after three court orders telling him he had to leave. I went there with workers of mine, with a van, and told the workers we are removing a tresspasser from a property and they get to keep anything they can fit in the work van. I brought the court order with me because I knew the tenant would call the police. I purposely called the police every time I went there prior to this because I knew the police would get sick of this guy and want the calls to the station to stop.

 

Sure enough, we went over there, I opened the garage and there was a bunch of the tenant's belonging in there. The guys started loading up his stuff in their van and according to plan, the tenant called the police. The police came, and I showed them the court orders and said this guy is tresspassing and I'm taking possession of my property.

 

The police looked over the court orders, agreed with me, and told the guy to go get a moving truck and move right now or he's getting arrested for tresspassing.

 

The tenant got a moving van and I stayed there to make sure he didn't damage the property. He moved that day I took over the property.

 

You might have to hire some foreigners to help you out if you do this. Yes, it's risky. Your choice to wait for something to happen that never will and eventually lose your property. You will have to physiccally take it back yourself. If you aren't like Hilton or someone big like that, you will get taken advantage of here. These guys know this.

[LivinLOS]

I struggle to know how to write this without seeming cold.. But how do you manage to put yourself into so much risk, over and over again, while getting damaged by these risks.. And then enter into the next one. 

 

You seem smart, you manage to make successful businesses, here and must have made money elsewhere to enable all these investments.. but dear god cant you see these risks as you walk into them ?? 

 

Options are not great.. 

 

Using muscle.. Using cops for muscle.. Cutting water and electric (assuming these are in your name).. Having your own paid security / muscle on site 24/7 to ensure protection of property.. 

 

You are being tested in a game of face and power.. You slink away with a legal argument and you will overall lose (hotel rent, hotel reputation, hotel fixtures and fittings) or you face the confrontation with physicality and force (then forever watch your back) or you involve the thai style power structures. If you dont have the support of the phu yai baan and or godfather element of the village, you probably shouldnt be in business there. 

 

I know what I would do, but I am a hot head.. But I couldnt look myself in the mirror if I didnt escalate in those power tests. The knowledge and self awareness that I am a hot head is partly why I avoid any dealings like this where I let someone else get a toe hold, because if they abuse it I know I will have to cut the toe off, with all the negative risk that comes with that. 

[cncltd1973]

17 hours ago, simon43 said:

There is one other option which my landlord (the guy whom I lease the land from).  If I don't pay the land rent for 3 months, he can repossess the land and the buildings on it.  He has already told me that he wants to do this and then re-rent it back to me.  But can I trust him??

 

I like this option the best, but of course you can't trust him, have the lawyer draw up an agreement between you and the landlord.

Even better if you and the landlord can date the default of rent immediately and begin the eviction process. Might be the simplest and fastest recourse.

Good luck, I feel your pain