CM Immigration curiosities.

[Dogberry]

Any body else there Friday the 9th might corroborate.

 

Having arrived at 0530 on the 8th and being 3 or 4 for shy of the quota I was forced to return on the ninth. Three o'clock something or so made me a low enough number to get in. All my paper work was in order except I purposefully withheld my residency/rental contract/TM 28/ or right or wrong  notification from house master or yellowbook or ANYTHING  such like although I had the required documents in my hand.

 

Now get this. I live in Lamphun. If you look while you are there in immigration, all their little cheat sheets and published requirements information for CM Immigration say something to the effect that all  CM residents will provide such documentation.  

 

So now for the next "Wheeee, what a perdicament", as Castor Troy says, a guy later in the line was refused an extension for not producing exactly what they did NOT as me to produce. Mind you this is the same official. 

 

 

 

 

[Bill97]

Stunning that you would find this noteworthy.

[NancyL]

Or the Immigration official probably looked into their database and saw that the appropriate TM28/TM30 document was already on-file for you.  That the address they had on file matched the address on your TM7 extension application.  

 

When I did my retirement extension in January, I brought my lease and had the most recent TM30 receipt in my passport, but didn't show either because they weren't requested.  

 

No news here.

[ramrod711]

Having arrived at 0530 on the 8th and being 3 or 4 for shy of the quota I was forced to return on the ninth.

 

My wife has a friend that is a line sitter, she and her son usually arrive at immigration at about 03:30 which was good enough to get me 4th place last month, the three people ahead of me were all paid by agents. The other night the lady was there at the usual time, 8 people ahead of her all employed by agents.  At what point will it become impossible for a person to do an extension themselves? I should add that the people ahead of her said that they arrived at 22"30 the night before.

Edited September 11, 2016 by ramrod711

[mesquite]

9 minutes ago, ramrod711 said:

Having arrived at 0530 on the 8th and being 3 or 4 for shy of the quota I was forced to return on the ninth.

 

My wife has a friend that is a line sitter, she and her son usually arrive at immigration at about 03:30 which was good enough to get me 4th place last month, the three people ahead of me were all paid by agents. The other night the lady was there at the usual time, 8 people ahead of her all employed by agents.  At what point will it become impossible for a person to do an extension themselves? I should add that the people ahead of her said that they arrived at 22"30 the night before.

I think we're already there.

[Chiengmaijoe]

1 hour ago, ramrod711 said:

Having arrived at 0530 on the 8th and being 3 or 4 for shy of the quota I was forced to return on the ninth.

 

My wife has a friend that is a line sitter, she and her son usually arrive at immigration at about 03:30 which was good enough to get me 4th place last month, the three people ahead of me were all paid by agents. The other night the lady was there at the usual time, 8 people ahead of her all employed by agents.  At what point will it become impossible for a person to do an extension themselves? I should add that the people ahead of her said that they arrived at 22"30 the night before.

 

It looks like we are back to 3rd world standards when it comes to immigration in Chiang Mai. Something's got to give.

 

If you arrived every day at 8.30am, when they open, and never get to be seen, who is responsible, when your visa expires, I wonder. You will have arrived at immigration every day at opening time, so surely the responsibility is with Immigration. If they can't fulfill their duties, it can hardly be your fault  so long as you have fulfilled yours.

[Dante99]

What are you on Joe?

[Chiengmaijoe]

18 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

What are you on Joe?

 

My first coffee.

At some point this problem needs to be high-lighted. It is not far off from being impossible to get a new visa without using an agent. As far as I know this problem is unique to Chiang Mai and at some point it has to break completely. That's why I asked the question.

Now that we have queue sitters getting there the day before at 10.30pm , it isn't far off that even they will become unfeasible, so where does that leave us? It isn't that long ago that people got there at opening time, and some of us can remember going in the afternoon because it was quieter. In a relatively short time it has come to getting there 10hrs before they even open!! 

I hate even waiting in a queue at a supermarket check-out so I ended up biting the bullet and paying an agent. Maybe somebody needs to take a stand to highlight this problem, and since I'm too busy, maybe you'd like to be the guinea pig!!

Edited September 11, 2016 by Chiengmaijoe

[Dante99]

Not me Joe, I have never in 30 years had problems with immigration nor felt any need or want to take any step to get them to do anything differently.

[Dogberry]

2 hours ago, NancyL said:

Or the Immigration official probably looked into their database and saw that the appropriate TM28/TM30 document was already on-file for you.  That the address they had on file matched the address on your TM7 extension application.  

 

When I did my retirement extension in January, I brought my lease and had the most recent TM30 receipt in my passport, but didn't show either because they weren't requested.  

 

No news here.

 

Ok, thanks for the info. I guess I don't follow closely enough to know.  

[Thailand]

When the new version of the online booking system is up and running things should improve. 

[ramrod711]

32 minutes ago, Thailand said:

When the new version of the online booking system is up and running things should improve. 

I hope you're right, but I have my doubts. As long as they operate on the quota system with weekends, holidays etc. they can't do more than 200 extensions per week, and not every week. Something has to give, there will be a breaking point. More staff, a different system or less expats?

[cyberfarang]

4 hours ago, Dante99 said:

Not me Joe, I have never in 30 years had problems with immigration nor felt any need or want to take any step to get them to do anything differently.

I think you are trying to wind Joe up.

 

The present system at Chiang Mai immigration is an abomination geared up for sending people to the agencies. Some may not be deterred by the thought of making a whole day of it but for me that is unacceptable and like the rest of the sheep I have been herded to use an agent. If the present system is on overload now, imagine what it`s going to be like in another couple of years as more and more foreigners move into Chiang Mai every year. Of course this means that the stand alone immigration offices will not be able to accommodate everyone and people will have to find other means of completing their business at immigration, that will obviously be the agencies because there wont be any other alternatives. I saw which way this was heading long ago and it can only get worse.

[dingdongrb]

Perhaps we all should wear our yellow shirts and stand in the middle of the road around the moat in protest? Surely that would make them change the process.....  

[NancyL]

Joe, the CEC Board has been advised by the Chiang Mai Governor's office of some sort of Ombudsman office that they've established for complaints like this and some of the Consuls think we should publicize it and encourage foreigners to lodge their complaints about Immigration with this office.  Trouble is you have to identify yourself when you make a "report".  So they can "verify" the report, you know.

 

So, what do you think?  Are you up to making a "report" and having it "verified".  

 

(Nope, I'd didn't think so, and I don't mean to single you out, in particular.  I'm trying to think of some way to utilize this "office", however.  Last time I had any personal interaction with the governor's office about Immigration was to report the results of a survey CEC did about Expat's "attitudes" about wait times at Immigration and whether they'd like to see the return of an on-line queue.  The end result was my being "banned" from Immigration, except to conduct my own personal business.  No more "observing".  No more "helping" people.  Scarred the poop out of Hubby enough that he hired an agent for his Immigration business and wished he hadn't insisted I take his surname when we married.)

[cyberfarang]

3 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Joe, the CEC Board has been advised by the Chiang Mai Governor's office of some sort of Ombudsman office that they've established for complaints like this and some of the Consuls think we should publicize it and encourage foreigners to lodge their complaints about Immigration with this office.  Trouble is you have to identify yourself when you make a "report".  So they can "verify" the report, you know.

 

So, what do you think?  Are you up to making a "report" and having it "verified".  

 

(Nope, I'd didn't think so, and I don't mean to single you out, in particular.  I'm trying to think of some way to utilize this "office", however.  Last time I had any personal interaction with the governor's office about Immigration was to report the results of a survey CEC did about Expat's "attitudes" about wait times at Immigration and whether they'd like to see the return of an on-line queue.  The end result was my being "banned" from Immigration, except to conduct my own personal business.  No more "observing".  No more "helping" people.  Scarred the poop out of Hubby enough that he hired an agent for his Immigration business and wished he hadn't insisted I take his surname when we married.)

That`s a bit harsh. I guess no foreigner is going to be brave enough to become a messiah and a saviour or liberator for all the expats in Chiang Mai. And as you know or should know, the more we complain will only make immigration retaliate by adding more inconvenience for us.

 

I made myself clear to you on the other threads, to make known our displeasure about the chaos at Chiang Mai immigration requires people with clout, those at the top of the chain, like an MP or consular to represent the whole Chiang Mai community on our behalf. In Thailand matters have to be tactfully negotiated, going in with all guns blazing doesn`t work and will do more harm then good.

[evenstevens]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

I think you are trying to wind Joe up.

 

The present system at Chiang Mai immigration is an abomination geared up for sending people to the agencies. Some may not be deterred by the thought of making a whole day of it but for me that is unacceptable and like the rest of the sheep I have been herded to use an agent. If the present system is on overload now, imagine what it`s going to be like in another couple of years as more and more foreigners move into Chiang Mai every year. Of course this means that the stand alone immigration offices will not be able to accommodate everyone and people will have to find other means of completing their business at immigration, that will obviously be the agencies because there wont be any other alternatives. I saw which way this was heading long ago and it can only get worse.

 

whats wrong in engaging  and paying  a visa  agency  or any other  assistance in making your retirement in c/mai  a  happy stress   free    one ??? thats what happy retirement  is all about,  is,nt it ??? or has E/S missed something ???

 having done the full monty of all  types  of visa,s over the yrs, my present situation in securing my retirement visa   with my agent, has been  a armchair ride,and  best way to the winning post, , in these demanding times at the Zoo, and not to mention just for a few nickels and dimes

   A   Love  Is  In  The Air  ,  ( John Paul Young )  good evening to all

 

 

[NancyL]

No, Chiengmaijoe raises a very good point.  One should reasonably expect to be able to conduct a required obligation if one shows up at the time the gov't office responsible for fulfilling that task opens.  OK, maybe it isn't reasonable to wait until the last minute, but here in Chiang Mai, you could show up at 8:30 am, 45 days before your retirement extension expires -- the earliest you can apply -- and be turned away because the queue was full.  You could return every day, at 8:30 am, for 45 days and be meet with the same story.

 

Think about your own countries.  What do you think would happen if people had to queue up at 2 am in order to renew their driver's licenses?  Thai people don't have to queue up at zero-dark-stupid in order to get visas to our countries nor do they have to queue up at those hours to meet the requirements imposed on them by their government.

 

Do any of you hire someone to apply for a driver's license for you in your home country?  Or wait in a queue at a government office?   Or for that matter, at any other government office in Thailand?  ..... I didn't think so.

 

 

[CMKiwi]

E/S  I think the point being raise here is one of a moral standing. For example it appears that Chiang Mai is the only Immigration Department that is woefully understaffed and appears to go out of its way to make life a bit more difficult for those Expats living here.

 

  By all accounts reports from other provinces shine lights on their wonderful no hassle Immigration Offices.  And yet folk of Chiang Mai keep having to jump through different hoops set by the Chiang Mai office.  As Nancy mentioned, she attempted to get something done to sort the situation out.  But as seems to be the case with a lot of Thai officials...if you make waves that they dont like then it will blow up in your face.

 

  Sure this isnt 'our' country and therefore we cannot dictate (Nor should we) as to how they should do things.  Even if you try to suggest possible improvements to their 'system' you are likely to be shot down/blacklisted etc.  Maybe that due to the current regime...who can say?

 

  I too have gone the way of using agents in order to have a 'non-hassle' visa extension (Commonly known as a retirement visa).  Should all retirees have to use a service like this in order to stay in the Kingdom?  Thats possibly a million dollar question. But under the current inefficient system it looks like that going to be the only option.  Either we have to 'suck it up" or move to a different province.

 

  Being of a military background, Im none to keen on sucking it up...but I am only but a visitor here (Under the official eyes).  I agree with comments made here about all the BS that has become CM Immigration but unfortunately cannot offer a solution nor can I see anything improving in the foreseeable future.... for those wanting to do the immigration process by themselves.

 

  Democracy is perhaps a alien word to the Thai Officials?

[cyberfarang]

1 minute ago, NancyL said:

No, Chiengmaijoe raises a very good point.  One should reasonably expect to be able to conduct a required obligation if one shows up at the time the gov't office responsible for fulfilling that task opens.  OK, maybe it isn't reasonable to wait until the last minute, but here in Chiang Mai, you could show up at 8:30 am, 45 days before your retirement extension expires -- the earliest you can apply -- and be turned away because the queue was full.  You could return every day, at 8:30 am, for 45 days and be meet with the same story.

 

Think about your own countries.  What do you think would happen if people had to queue up at 2 am in order to renew their driver's licenses?  Thai people don't have to queue up at zero-dark-stupid in order to get visas to our countries nor do they have to queue up at those hours to meet the requirements imposed on them by their government.

 

 

Wholeheartedly agree with you. We are expected to fulfill our obligations to the immigration department and if they cannot facilitate us, then it`s tough luck, we end up being law breakers on overstay, fined or imprisoned or even deported, that to me is unacceptable.

 

I realise we have the choice of using an agency but then that has to be made official and standard across the whole country, not just special treatment dished out to Chiang Mai expats only.

[CMKiwi]

I agree with what you are saying to CF, but Im not sure if there is a 'government' forum in which we are able to voice our concerns.... and if it would provide any improvent to the current lack of service we get.

 

I also concur that it appears only to be happening in Chiang Mai.

 

It all sounds rather defeatest on my behalf...but what can we do in order to get a positive reaction from the current regime?  As Nancy said (In a round about way) she was targeted for speaking out.  This seems to be the norm with Thai officialdom.  You dont dare suggest they actually do the job that they are theoretically paid to do!

 

No easy answer.....

[Briggsy]

Actually, in order to get a resident's permit in Holland, exactly the same system applied. Queue up around 5 o'clock. Get a number around 6 o'clock. Go back at 9 o'clock. At least they didn't send you away to get 'important document' on spurious pretexts.

[mamborobert]

Queing for visas in the US and UK and many other Western countries is (or was) quite common.  There were weeks in Australia when you could not get in as overseas students queued up for renewals for the new study year.  A lot has been cut out by making electronic lodgement for some visas for some people in some countries....

 

It is a hell of a lot easier for a US citizen to get a retirement extension in CM than a Thai national to get to the US let alone obtain a similar type visa.  Imagine if for example  requirements were enforced to show funds unlike the current statutory declaration type set up here now.   With the drop in the pound for example there would be a few that would not make it.  Likewise now consulates confirm only  the signature on statement rather than veracity of statement.....Enforcement here to the level of the US or UK would cause a lot more problems for some ......and no doubt cut down the queues through less applicants.  Are we going to argue for stricter evidentiary enforcement as an alternate way to reduce waiting times  

 

I imagine not many local expats  have not had the experience of applying for visas in their own countries.  I have applied in US and UK and PI etc etc...Thailand is the easiest by far, an absolute breeze......and quick given the little supporting documentation that is currently asked for.

 

Just one example

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/garda-measures-aim-to-tackle-long-visa-queues-1.2369711

 

 

As a bonus at least in Thailand there is a queue system and not a quota system.  In most western countries you can qualify but not actually get granted a visa...sometimes for years....and these are for temporary visas still. 

 

Bad as it is, and specifically worse in CM....I would keep quiet while we are on a "relatively" good thing. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by mamborobert

[evenstevens]

14 minutes ago, CMKiwi said:

  Either we have to 'suck it up" or move to a different province.

 

 

 

^^^ you have knock the nail right on its head,

 OR

go back to your home country

 

its    Another    Brick   In the   Wall , Pink Floyd,  Good Nite to all my readers

[cyberfarang]

5 minutes ago, mamborobert said:

Queing for visas in the US and UK and many other Western countries is (or was) quite common.  There were weeks in Australia when you could not get in as overseas students queued up for renewals for the new study year.  A lot has been cut out by making electronic lodgement for some visas for some people in some countries....

 

It is a hell of a lot easier for a US citizen to get a retirement extension in CM than a Thai national to get to the US let alone obtain a similar type visa.  Imagine if for example  requirements were enforced to show funds unlike the current statutory declaration type set up here now.   With the drop in the pound for example there would be a few that would not make it.  Likewise now consulates confirm only  the signature on statement rather than veracity of statement.....Enforcement here to the level of the US or UK would cause a lot more problems for some ......and no doubt cut down the queues through less applicants.  Are we going to argue for stricter evidentiary enforcement as an alternate way to reduce waiting times  

 

I imagine not many local expats  have not had the experience of applying for visas in their own countries.  I have applied in US and UK and PI etc etc...Thailand is the easiest by far, an absolute breeze......and quick given the little supporting documentation that is currently asked for.

 

Just one example

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/garda-measures-aim-to-tackle-long-visa-queues-1.2369711

 

It`s completely different.

 

As an Englishman I can only speak of the knowledge I have of my own country. It is much more difficult for Thais to obtain visas and enter into the United Kingdom. But once they are in, say for marriage, employments and study, they are then firmly in, especially those in the country as married or have enough money to retire there, no 90 day reporting and yearly extensions to worry about. Also Thais can become real immigrants into Britain, work, own property and run businesses there and if they experience hard times are entitled to claim welfare benefits, and free NHS care, local authority housing, including free education for their children if they have any.

 

As a retiree in Thailand, bringing my money from abroad and spending it here, I receive no benefits or concessions for being a retiree whatsoever, even given a lower status then a Burmese refugee or immigrant worker who bring nothing into the country, which means for retirees like me, living in Thailand is a real labour of love.

[mamborobert]

If we are going to compare like with like...A Thai will find it very difficult to get a  permanent or temporary retirement visa to the UK or USA or Australia....considerably more than the other way around.

 

Apart from the quotas that are in place in these countries they can perhaps get an investor/retiree visa if they are a multi millionaire....still temporary....whereas any number of western pensioners on a lower income  can basically rock up in Thailand on a  tourist visa and convert

 

Then there are the comprehensive  health checks for retirees in those countries so they do not become a burden on the public health system, the mandatory requirement for private health insurance, for some a language proficiency requirement, the requirement for a penal clearance certificate etc etc none of which are in place here for temporary visas for retirement (there seems to be more western criinals here that Thai criminals in the west )

 

All I am saying is it is still an easy visa......even in CM, my opinion, your experience may vary which I accept.  That does not however negate my good experiences to date and I am concerned that "agitating" will make things more difficult as evidenced perhaps by the recent issue with Residency certs.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by mamborobert

[CNXBKKMAN]

The way the immigration office is run generates many millions of baht above the 1900 baht visa fees that it collects for the state. Somebody or small group of people collect this multi million baht extra revenue. The people who get this cash have no incentive for the office to be run legit and efficiently as there would be need for anyone to pay any more than than the 1900 baht government fee. If you look at the office from the perspective of the people who benefit from foreigners paying 6000 baht for something that should only cost 1900, how it is and how it operates becomes very rational. 

[Chiengmaijoe]

1 hour ago, CNXBKKMAN said:

The way the immigration office is run generates many millions of baht above the 1900 baht visa fees that it collects for the state. Somebody or small group of people collect this multi million baht extra revenue. The people who get this cash have no incentive for the office to be run legit and efficiently as there would be need for anyone to pay any more than than the 1900 baht government fee. If you look at the office from the perspective of the people who benefit from foreigners paying 6000 baht for something that should only cost 1900, how it is and how it operates becomes very rational. 

 

So why is every immigration in the country not run the same way? Assuming the worst or being cynical is not always right.

[cyberfarang]

11 minutes ago, Chiengmaijoe said:

 

So why is every immigration in the country not run the same way? Assuming the worst or being cynical is not always right.

Not knowing for certain and can only make a guess at this, I would think probably all the other immigration offices fall under one jurisdiction and although for what I gather Chiang Mai still has to answer to Bangkok, it seems that Bangkok have washed their hands of it and made Chiang Mai a separate entity from all the rest to govern itself.

 

Makes sense but of course I am only guessing at this point.

[Chiengmaijoe]

20 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Not knowing for certain and can only make a guess at this, I would think probably all the other immigration offices fall under one jurisdiction and although for what I gather Chiang Mai still has to answer to Bangkok, it seems that Bangkok have washed their hands of it and made Chiang Mai a separate entity from all the rest to govern itself.

 

Makes sense but of course I am only guessing at this point.

 

CNXBKKMAN was implying that Chiang Mai is purposely inefficient in order to force people to use agents so that they  can become rich. I don't believe that, and still think that if that were the case others would have done the same thing. I'm sure that agents exist in other cities, as there will always be people that choose to take the hassle-free approach, but my belief is that Chiang Mai is just being overwhelmed by sheer numbers, and for some reason they're not getting the increased funding they require.

 

Until last year I had always managed to renew my 1 year visa without any hassle, without using an agent, and although the fee for using an agent is of no great concern to me, I still find it interesting to see the system that worked reasonably well for so many years become so difficult for those wishing to avoid agents fees. I get the impression that it is also getting to be more difficult for the agents too.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Chiengmaijoe