30 yr lease transfer

[heybuz]

simple question or not so simple,

Is it possible to transfer the remainder of a 30 yr lease to another person in this case a thai national not associated with the owner of the land, meaning not my ex wife or any of her siblings,[ house lease that is.]

[FritsSikkink]

Depends what is in the contract about it

[BritTim]

As stated, a lease may be transferable or non transferable. Check the lease agreement. In most cases, the nationality of the new lessee will be irrelevant. If the current lease is non transferable, it could still be worthwhile to talk to the lessor (property owner) to see if he will agree to amend the lease to allow the transfer.

[bangkoklawyer24]

If you just have some common sense you would understand that a contractual agreement as a lease, a service agreement, an employment contract or  a loan agreement, can never transferred by the lessee, the service provider, the employee or the debtor. No need to go to Chulalongkorn law school to understand that. Surely you can agree between the parties to terminate the old agreement and enter into a new contract.

[heybuz]

what i am trying to say is that my ex wife is occupying the house i bought and paid for i have a 30 year lease on house and land my name is on the deed as being the  owner of the house , i have virtually been barred from occupying said house and have heard that i can in effect evict my ex even though she is the owner of the land.now not being to nieve i know that a thai court would favor my ex's i was just asking can i transfer the house to a thai national and then they can apply for an eviction.

[heybuz]

In effect is what i have a lease or the right to occupy

[bark]

Transfer only to me :)

[Dongkampo]

If you have a Chanote or Nor Sor 4  you will be allowed to use the house without any interference from anyone (ex mrs etc)... This type of title grants the holder of this document full rights over the land, to deal with, or to use it as he or she see fit, to the exclusion of others.

[PoorSucker]

54 minutes ago, heybuz said:

what i am trying to say is that my ex wife is occupying the house i bought and paid for i have a 30 year lease on house and land my name is on the deed as being the  owner of the house , i have virtually been barred from occupying said house and have heard that i can in effect evict my ex even though she is the owner of the land.now not being to nieve i know that a thai court would favor my ex's i was just asking can i transfer the house to a thai national and then they can apply for an eviction.

Did you enter the lease before or after marriage.

Under Thai marriage laws any agreement between husband and wife entered into during the marriage can be voided by either of them at any time during the marriage or within one year from the final divorce.

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/thai-marriage-and-contracts-between-husband-and-wife.html

[GOLDBUGGY]

Technically, you can't go down to the Land Office and transfer your remaining years lease to somebody else. This 30 Year Lease Agreement is a Contract between you and the Land Owner. It can only be terminated by the expiration of the Lease Agreement (30 Years), your death, your decision to terminate with the Land Owner, a deliberate violation of this Lease Agreement by you letting the property fall in value, or by Court Order (as in a Divorce). 

 

However, and unless it stipulates on your Lease you can't do this, which would be rare, you are allowed to Sub Lease. In other words rent your property and house out and collect the proceeds from this. But I believe the maximum amount of time you can lease is up to 3 years at a time. So a One Year Renewable Lease would be okay. 

 

Having said that, I don't know anyone who would want to rent from you and then evict somebody else before they can move in. Or even take on the remaining years of your Lease, if they could do this. Unless you try to pull the wool over their eyes. Especially when it is your x-wife, who can have all the rules changed after a divorce. I am assuming that when you say x-wife, you are not Legally Divorced yet, otherwise this issue would be resolved. 

 

In your specific case I only see 4 options for you.:

 

1) Walk away!

2) Talk to your x-wife and try to form some agreement between you. 

3) Seek Good Legal Counsel.

4) Get a Divorce, and take your chances that the Divorce Court will resolve this issue for you in a satisfactory way. Keep in mind that a forced sale doesn't mean the property will sell quickly or at all, and it doesn't assure you that your x-wife will be forced to move out. My experience is that in a Contested Divorce and the gloves come off, anything can happen. 

 

Lastly don't try to screw somebody else just because you feel you are getting screwed. If you Sub Lease your property make sure they know what they are up against.  

[MikeyIdea]

6 hours ago, heybuz said:

what i am trying to say is that my ex wife is occupying the house i bought and paid for i have a 30 year lease on house and land my name is on the deed as being the  owner of the house , i have virtually been barred from occupying said house and have heard that i can in effect evict my ex even though she is the owner of the land.now not being to nieve i know that a thai court would favor my ex's i was just asking can i transfer the house to a thai national and then they can apply for an eviction.

 

I was in Pathum Thani Family court as an interpretor in a case and chatted with the older court officer there during lunch, very nice woman in her late 40's. She said that they had a case there similar to yours. The man had a 30 year lease and the woman refused to vacate the house. Pathum Thani family court finally issued an arrest warrant for the woman, oh shit

 

I do not know the details, husband, wife, lease before or after marriage etc. He should have been there one time before for a divorce but I never confirmed any details. Family court is s strange place to be if not :)

 

My experience is not that a Thai court would favour the Thai, not in Juvenile and Family court. I would go straight to family court if I could and I bet I would get a fair treatment. I have no experience in criminal courts

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[BritTim]

10 hours ago, bangkoklawyer24 said:

If you just have some common sense you would understand that a contractual agreement as a lease, a service agreement, an employment contract or  a loan agreement, can never transferred by the lessee, the service provider, the employee or the debtor. No need to go to Chulalongkorn law school to understand that. Surely you can agree between the parties to terminate the old agreement and enter into a new contract.

 

Sometimes, actual knowledge may be more valuable than common sense. As a couple of us have stated, the ability to transfer your lease obligations to someone else depends on the lease agreement. Sometimes, you have an absolute right to do so. You may wish to read http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/text/infopages/Real-Estate-Glossary/assignment-of-lease.html before assuming a lease agreement is analogous to an employment contract.

[MikeyIdea]

I was just thinking. If there is a question of which court you can/should do this in, then you can always throw in a case to family court and see if they accept it. You will know within a week 10 days or so if they accept it or throw it out. Very little extra work for the lawyer so he shouldn't charge much extra

[sandemara]

It's a dumb question to post in an open forum when any decent lawyer could give you a reliable, private solution within minutes for less than 500 baht.

[heybuz]

thanks for the reply's, i am divorced ,i bought and paid for the property before marriage ,i don't know any honest and reliable lawyers in thailand that wont take me for a ride ,i don't care if i get nothing out of it ,i have had an offer from a thai national to purchase but i'm not in the business of ripping off people who try to help or others for that matter .i was only try ing to see if it could be done as yes there are people who would take on a lease in this case 27 yrs left for the right price.

 

[heybuz]

i'm a believer that there are no dumb questions only dumb answers.  also this maybe would help others if in this situation, if posted on an open forum.

Edited October 4, 2016 by heybuz
added more text

[heybuz]

a bit of levity ,Recently heard of a norwegian man who on returning to thailand after visiting his home country and finding his wife with another got a

JCB and demolished the house. fact or fiction i don't know it was apparently in Jomtien.

 The thought has now crossed my mind 555

Edited October 4, 2016 by heybuz

[heybuz]

another thing is in this situation is if i remarry another thai national do i have the right to move into the house, another can of worms in this saga.i see all of these questions and answers helpful to us second class citizens in thailand,maybe others will be put in the same position and may read this forum and at least have some idea as to there options. thank you again ladies and gentlemen of the forum

 

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

2 hours ago, heybuz said:

thanks for the reply's, i am divorced ,i bought and paid for the property before marriage ,i don't know any honest and reliable lawyers in thailand that wont take me for a ride ,i don't care if i get nothing out of it ,i have had an offer from a thai national to purchase but i'm not in the business of ripping off people who try to help or others for that matter .i was only try ing to see if it could be done as yes there are people who would take on a lease in this case 27 yrs left for the right price.

 

Your question is a good one, but for me very confusing. I am trying to figure out how this property is still an issue with you and your x-wife after you have already gone through a legal divorce. Wasn't the division of property mentioned as part of your divorce?

 

If you agreed to allow your x-wife to live their as long as she wants. then technically you don't have this 30 year lease anymore. If she agreed to surrender this property to you, and hasn't, then she is breaking the law and needs to be evicted. If you haven't settle this with your x-wife yet, then you need to do so, or get is resolved in court.

 

The way I see it, in order for you to be able to do anything with this property, you have to take possession and ownership of it. Personally I can't see anyone wanted to rent or lease your property, and who can't register this lease at the Land Office, knowing full well they have to evict your x-wife first. But if you can find someone, then by all means dump it on his lap.       

[chiang mai]

9 hours ago, sandemara said:

It's a dumb question to post in an open forum when any decent lawyer could give you a reliable, private solution within minutes for less than 500 baht.

 

The only dumb question is the one that isn't asked! BTW good manners cost nothing!

[chiang mai]

12 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Your question is a good one, but for me very confusing. I am trying to figure out how this property is still an issue with you and your x-wife after you have already gone through a legal divorce. Wasn't the division of property mentioned as part of your divorce?

 

If you agreed to allow your x-wife to live their as long as she wants. then technically you don't have this 30 year lease anymore. If she agreed to surrender this property to you, and hasn't, then she is breaking the law and needs to be evicted. If you haven't settle this with your x-wife yet, then you need to do so, or get is resolved in court.

 

The way I see it, in order for you to be able to do anything with this property, you have to take possession and ownership of it. Personally I can't see anyone wanted to rent or lease your property, and who can't register this lease at the Land Office, knowing full well they have to evict your x-wife first. But if you can find someone, then by all means dump it on his lap.       

 

I agree, it's either marital property or it's not, if it is it's been divided or assigned by the courts, if it's not you are free and clear to turf her out, you don't need to be a Thai to do that.

[MikeyIdea]

Family court only consider assets and investments acquired during marriage when negotiating a divorce.

 

You never said if the ex wife or someone else owns the land but it wouldn't matter in court. The land was hers (or someone else's) before marriage and it stays that way, the lease agreement was yours before marriage and it stays that way. If the actual house was built while married, then the cost of it should be split

 

You have a clear case to go to court to get her evicted  - unless you confirmed that she actually could stay forever, to provide evidence of that sits with her though, not you

 

27 years left of the lease? You should go to court to clear this

 

Thai court will not be biased against you because you are a foreigner, your Thai lawyer may very well be though. This is not a case where "mutual agreement" should be done so beware of that. If your lawyer suggests you to accept that, then be 100% clear with him that you refuse

 

[heybuz]

when i divorced nothing was said or asked, the official never asked a thing just sign here, which i did. wife or ex wife did not own the land before marriage i paid for the lot. nothing signed to say she could stay in house by me

Edited October 5, 2016 by heybuz

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 5:44 AM, heybuz said:

simple question or not so simple,

 

So the answer is simple :)

 

Not about transfer to someone else but is eviction valid, yes it is

[GOLDBUGGY]

3 hours ago, heybuz said:

another thing is in this situation is if i remarry another thai national do i have the right to move into the house, another can of worms in this saga.i see all of these questions and answers helpful to us second class citizens in thailand,maybe others will be put in the same position and may read this forum and at least have some idea as to there options. thank you again ladies and gentlemen of the forum

 

 

Your "Nationality" has got nothing to do with you taking possession of your house! You either have legal rights to use this property after the divorce with your x-wife, or you don't.

 

You seem to be confused on the difference between Ownership and being a Leaser. This could be because you may actually own your house, (before the Divorce) but not the land it sits on, and even if you paid for it. Thus you know that not being a Thai you can't own this land. So now you wonder about the possibility if you married to another Thai, if you might be able to get this land back.

 

The answer is "No!". You gave this land to your x-wife and it is recorded in her name at the Land Office. I am sure they spoke with you about this and the future ramifications before they agreed to signing your 30 year lease. If you remarried to another Thai and your x-wife agreed to sell the land back to her, or give it back to you for a dollar, then it is possible. But I don't see any reason why she would do this without some compensation given to her by you. But offering her something for the land now might get her out of the house now, so you could move in.  

 

But as a Leaser, you have ever right to live in your house on the land for the next 27 years. Unless you gave this right to you x-wife during the Divorce. So it has nothing to do with your Nationality, or if you marry a Thai in the future. It has everything to do if your Lease is still valid and you didn't give up this right during the Divorce.   

[heybuz]

i gave no rights knowingly to her, no i accept that she will take possession after the 30 yr s.the land office said nothing to me except when i found a english speaker i asked about the house and how long does the house belong to me his answer was "life"

[GOLDBUGGY]

23 minutes ago, heybuz said:

when i divorced nothing was said or asked, the official never asked a thing just sign here, which i did. wife or ex wife did not own the land before marriage i paid for the lot. nothing signed to say she could stay in house by me

Well if you are sure that when you signed this Divorce Form you did not sign over ownership of the property, meaning you had these papers translated and understand everything that was written on them, then your x-wife has no right to your property. At least not anymore than a squatter does. You should be able to throw her out on her ear.

 

If I was you, and I had a trusted Thai Friend, I think I would make your x-wife an offer to sell this land to your Thai Friend. Not the full price of course but maybe some pocket change just to get her to move. Police may not want to get involved without a Court Order as they may view this as a domestic depute. 

 

The new owner still has to honor your lease and the remaining  27 years left on it, so in that way you are still protected. Or kill you!   

[bangkoklawyer24]

18 hours ago, BritTim said:

 

Sometimes, actual knowledge may be more valuable than common sense. As a couple of us have stated, the ability to transfer your lease obligations to someone else depends on the lease agreement. Sometimes, you have an absolute right to do so. You may wish to read http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/text/infopages/Real-Estate-Glossary/assignment-of-lease.html before assuming a lease agreement is analogous to an employment contract.

 

Brouhaha. You linked to a New York website that describes common law principles in the USA. Well done.

[BritTim]

Just now, bangkoklawyer24 said:

 

Brouhaha. You linked to a New York website that describes common law principles in the USA. Well done.

 

When dealing with someone with zero prior knowledge, it is best to start with the basics.

[bangkoklawyer24]

2 minutes ago, BritTim said:

 

When dealing with someone with zero prior knowledge, it is best to start with the basics.

Welcome to Thailand. You are no longer in Harlem now.