US again lashes out at Israeli settlements in West Bank

[Morch]

8 hours ago, notmyself said:

 

Drivel (babble). It was the U.S. that created the state of Israel and you have to ask yourself why.

 

You create something that should not exist and then complain when it all goes tits up. What kind of convoluted BS is this? Israel has no claim to its 'own land' any more than any other which is why they have spent so much money looking for the 'title deeds' and found nothing. Bibi already told the world why but the U.S. just ignored it. Why?

 

May want to take a pause repeatedly posting "Amalekites" and brush up on your history. The US did not "create" Israel, nor was it especially helpful or involved during the country's early years.

 

As pointed out earlier, begging the question.

 

 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Steely Dan said:

This is why the US made such a meal out of the Israeli government announcement, they are IMHO planning to not exercise their veto on a UNSC resolution so the ground work needs to be put in to paint Israel as the bad guy. I previously mentioned EU funding of illegal Palestinian settlements because as one of the so called quartet they are as much part of the process as the U.S. So we have the bizarre situation of one of the referees attempting to change facts on the ground whilst another is shouting at Israel for doing the same.

Meanwhile The NY Times you mentioned does a two page spread whining about Amona yet not a dickybird about 55 people killed in Syria yesterday including 16 children. Yes this is a concocted shit storm and no mistake.


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Your original comment did not reference anything of the sort, though. As such, it was simply another knee jerk response to any criticism of Israeli policies. If something is claimed to be contrived, there should at least be a minimal effort to demonstrate the point.

 

There is no need to "paint Israel as the bad guy" with regards to the illegal settlements in the West Bank. One of the few issues which sees wide international agreement, even from countries usually supportive of Israel. For that matter, its even a divisive issue among Israelis themselves.

 

It may be that the Obama administration is planning such a move on the UNSC, and it may be possible that it prepares the ground, public opinion-wise. If this was so, a smart Israeli government would avoid actions which could serve to support further criticism. The decision to go ahead with the announcement reflects badly both on the Israeli governments assessment of the Obama administration. It also demonstrates that often, matters relating to international relations are governed domestic considerations.

 

Non of the countries involved lived up to agreements, treaties, promises and the spirit in which they were formulated. That goes for Israel, the Palestinians, the US, the EU and several ME countries as well. Highlighting the EU's involvement (which if far from being a key factor) does not, and will not serve to get Israel of the hook.

 

We do not have an argument with regard to the out of proportion coverage the Israeli-Palestinian conflict gets. Especially when compared to the mess next door.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

But do we see any gratitude from the Palestinians for that concession?

Why would they be grateful? The Israelis left because the price in blood was too high to remain, and they destroyed everything before they left.

To say the Palestinians should be grateful is like saying you should be grateful to him if a man that occupied your house left because the police made him. They were there illegally in the first place.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Russia break the Gaza blockade for a start, though it would be more difficult to open up the West Bank.

If Clinton is elected, they probably think they can do what they like, as they know her well. Trump is more forceful on supporting Israel though.

 

"and they destroyed everything before they left."

 

No, that's incorrect. There was, in fact, quite a bit of infrastructure left behind.

 

Russia breaking the Gaza blockade? Russia doesn't give two figs about the Palestinians, or the blockade. The likelihood of Russia looking forward getting involved in another ME quagmire is nil.

[CharlieK]

On 10/7/2016 at 0:23 AM, Xircal said:

Last but not least, Israel provides a huge amount of intelligence to the US which it cannot obtain by any other means. For that reason alone, the US will make the right noises to address concerns, but will continue to support Israel through thick and thin even if it doesn't approve of settlements expansion.

 

That is not all Israel does for America. Israel also battle tests American armaments and make them tens times better than they would be if the Americans were left to their own devices. America would be extremely nervous if for example Israel sold this technology to Russia or China? 

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

That is not all Israel does for America. Israel also battle tests American armaments and make them tens times better than they would be if the Americans were left to their own devices. America would be extremely nervous if for example Israel sold this technology to Russia or China? 

 

The US armed forces are involved in more fighting than the IDF. The US does not need another country to "test" its military hardware. If Israel was to make unapproved sales of military technology effecting US security, it would be cut off from receiving military aid (and possibly, diplomatic support). There were a few instances in which the US vetoed Israeli sales of military hardware and technology to other countries (notably the PRC).

Edited October 8, 2016 by Morch

[CharlieK]

On 10/6/2016 at 10:31 PM, notmyself said:

What is really funny is that without Judaism you would not have Islamic terrorists. You reap what you sow.

 

What's even funnier is that without Judaism Christianity would be none existent. So if bastad Jesus wasn't born you would all be Jews, in fact it could be said you are all jews. 

 

I dare say you are trolling this topic as non of what you say makes any sense? You blame Islamic terrorists as a product of the existence of Judaism? Yet the Islamic terrorists seem more content in killing each other or going on killing sprees in Europe etc. Rather than getting anywhere near Israel to attack it. 

[CharlieK]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The US armed forces are involved in more fighting than the IDF

 

using drones etc, America isn't so keen to deploy its own troops on the ground these day! 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

using drones etc, America isn't so keen to deploy its own troops on the ground these day! 

 

The US had ground troops involved on almost any conflict it took part in.  Try again.

They have zero need of Israel "testing" anything for them.

[CharlieK]

On 10/6/2016 at 4:07 PM, Morch said:

 

The US does not shift its foreign policy overnight. A US president, even Trump, would be bound by two houses, legal issues, international and bilateral agreements plus a pressure from host of interest groups. With Trump, its more that one cannot guess what he will say - can't see him as actually doing much one way or the other.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't trump financing his own campaign? He could tell these special interest groups to stick it. Unlike other Presidents he doesn't need to kowtow to these groups because he isn't taking their money. Isn't that why the GOP are having a hard time keeping him on message?  

[CharlieK]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The US had ground troops involved on almost any conflict it took part in.  Try again.

They have zero need of Israel "testing" anything for them.

 

lets agree to disagree. I'm not saying in all respects but Israel have taken some ideas and made them better.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't trump financing his own campaign? He could tell these special interest groups to stick it. Unlike other Presidents he doesn't need to kowtow to these groups because he isn't taking their money. Isn't that why the GOP are having a hard time keeping him on message?  

 

Trump is not financing his own campaign. And being on a campaign trail is nothing like being in the White House.

A US president is still bound be international agreements, treaties and the numerous checks and balances thankfully built in the US government.

[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't trump financing his own campaign? He could tell these special interest groups to stick it. Unlike other Presidents he doesn't need to kowtow to these groups because he isn't taking their money. Isn't that why the GOP are having a hard time keeping him on message?  

In the primaries Trumps campaign borrowed money from Trump. That was used to rent prime real estate at exorbitant prices from Trump. So he did quite well there. At the moment he is the GOP candidate, and is using money from the GOP. Maybe he is still using additional funds lend to him by himself, I don't know about that part.

[Xircal]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

But do we see any gratitude from the Palestinians for that concession?

Why would they be grateful? The Israelis left because the price in blood was too high to remain, and they destroyed everything before they left.

To say the Palestinians should be grateful is like saying you should be grateful to him if a man that occupied your house left because the police made him. They were there illegally in the first place.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Russia break the Gaza blockade for a start, though it would be more difficult to open up the West Bank.

If Clinton is elected, they probably think they can do what they like, as they know her well. Trump is more forceful on supporting Israel though.

 

Well, you can't blame them for destroying everything. After all, why should someone just hand over their possessions to a third party without being paid.

 

Also it wasn't the price of blood which forced Israel to give up the Gaza Strip but rather United Nations Security Council Resolution 242. What was supposed to follow was peace with the Arab states.

[Ulysses G.]

2 minutes ago, Xircal said:

 

Well, you can't blame them for destroying everything. After all, why should someone just hand over their possessions to a third party without being paid.

 

 

A legitimate point, but actually half of the greenhouses were left intact.

The Palestinians looted them and took all the equipment after they wee given back.

[Morch]

12 hours ago, Xircal said:

 

Well, you can't blame them for destroying everything. After all, why should someone just hand over their possessions to a third party without being paid.

 

Also it wasn't the price of blood which forced Israel to give up the Gaza Strip but rather United Nations Security Council Resolution 242. What was supposed to follow was peace with the Arab states.

 

The Israelis did not "destroy everything" on withdrawing, and the withdrawal was a unilateral move,  rather than expressing compliance with UNSC resolution 242. I doubt even Israelis made the latter claim.

 

[Xircal]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The Israelis did not "destroy everything" on withdrawing, and the withdrawal was a unilateral move,  rather than expressing compliance with UNSC resolution 242. I doubt even Israelis made the latter claim.

 

 

I believe all the houses which belonged to Israeli owners were bulldozed. Are you saying some were left standing?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Xircal said:

 

I believe all the houses which belonged to Israeli owners were bulldozed. Are you saying some were left standing?

 

They were indeed demolished. Roads, water and electric infrastructure were not. Hence, not "everything".

As for the greenhouses UG often refers to, a bit more complicated. All were supposed to be left intact. but about half were destroyed by Israeli owners prior to the withdrawal. This was partly related to promised payments for hardware not being transferred. The remaining greenhouses were looted by Gazans, and when things calmed down, there were even less usable greenhouses.

[Steely Dan]

@Morch,

I think it's time for you to reconsider, change is happening at a far quicker rate than you credit in the Arab world.

http://awdnews.com/top-news/saudi-prince-al-waleed-bin-talal-palestinians-must-end-their-occupation-of-historic-jewish-lands-in-judea-and-samaria-the-west-bank-,-saudi-arabia-is-financially-resourceful-to-help-palestinians-dwell-permanently-among-their-arab-brothers

(Fri, Oct 7, 2016) Riyadh- According to the Saudi daily al-Watan, the Saudi Prince al-Waleed bin Talal has raised eyebrows once again among Saudi political circles as he announced his unwavering support for 'Jewish nation' and slammed Palestinians' obstinate refusal to accept the 'historical facts'.

So there you have it from a Saudi prince. Palestinians must end THEIR OCCUPATION of historic Jewish lands in Judea and Samaria. He goes on to say Saudi Arabia has the financial resources to help the Palestinians live amongst their Arab brothers. In other words do the job UNRWA has failed to even attempt.


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[simple1]

17 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

@Morch,

I think it's time for you to reconsider, change is happening at a far quicker rate than you credit in the Arab world.

http://awdnews.com/top-news/saudi-prince-al-waleed-bin-talal-palestinians-must-end-their-occupation-of-historic-jewish-lands-in-judea-and-samaria-the-west-bank-,-saudi-arabia-is-financially-resourceful-to-help-palestinians-dwell-permanently-among-their-arab-brothers
 

 

So there you have it from a Saudi prince. Palestinians must end THEIR OCCUPATION of historic Jewish lands in Judea and Samaria.


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The web site you reference has previously been called out for making fabricated claims concerning al-Waleed bin Talal's statements. Unless you can prove otherwise I would guess misinformation also applies to your quoted article.

Edited October 11, 2016 by simple1

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Steely Dan said:

@Morch,

I think it's time for you to reconsider, change is happening at a far quicker rate than you credit in the Arab world.

http://awdnews.com/top-news/saudi-prince-al-waleed-bin-talal-palestinians-must-end-their-occupation-of-historic-jewish-lands-in-judea-and-samaria-the-west-bank-,-saudi-arabia-is-financially-resourceful-to-help-palestinians-dwell-permanently-among-their-arab-brothers
 

 

So there you have it from a Saudi prince. Palestinians must end THEIR OCCUPATION of historic Jewish lands in Judea and Samaria. He goes on to say Saudi Arabia has the financial resources to help the Palestinians live amongst their Arab brothers. In other words do the job UNRWA has failed to even attempt.


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I think it is time for you to reconsider quoting questionable sources as fact.

 

Here are a couple of links highlighting similar previous episodes:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Waleed_bin_Talal#Political_views

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-quoted-bogus-saudi-pro-israel-statement-as-fact/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steely Dan]

 
I think it is time for you to reconsider quoting questionable sources as fact.
 
Here are a couple of links highlighting similar previous episodes:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Waleed_bin_Talal#Political_views
 
http://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-quoted-bogus-saudi-pro-israel-statement-as-fact/
 

 
 
 
 
 
 

Killjoy. ;-)



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[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎08‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 2:05 PM, CharlieK said:

 

What's even funnier is that without Judaism Christianity would be none existent. So if bastad Jesus wasn't born you would all be Jews, in fact it could be said you are all jews. 

 

I dare say you are trolling this topic as non of what you say makes any sense? You blame Islamic terrorists as a product of the existence of Judaism? Yet the Islamic terrorists seem more content in killing each other or going on killing sprees in Europe etc. Rather than getting anywhere near Israel to attack it. 

I take it as saying that Jews and Muslims both came from the same Semitic bloodlines.

Christianity would still have come about as there were other tribes in Palestine of old.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎08‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 2:26 PM, stevenl said:

In the primaries Trumps campaign borrowed money from Trump. That was used to rent prime real estate at exorbitant prices from Trump. So he did quite well there. At the moment he is the GOP candidate, and is using money from the GOP. Maybe he is still using additional funds lend to him by himself, I don't know about that part.

There you go again.

Trump has been raising money for the GOP, not just himself.

Anyway, he has little need for funds given that the media give him millions of $ worth of free advertising.

[CharlieK]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I take it as saying that Jews and Muslims both came from the same Semitic bloodlines.

Christianity would still have come about as there were other tribes in Palestine of old.

 

Wrong. Jesus was a jew. without judaism there could not be christianity.  how else would christianity come to be if not for a Jewish zealot? 

[Ulysses G.]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I take it as saying that Jews and Muslims both came from the same Semitic bloodlines.

 

Semitic has nothing to do with race or bloodlines. It refers to Semitic languages.

[Saladin]

Nobody has addressed my fundamental question. How can we take US concern regarding internationally illegal settlements seriously when only two weeks ago they gave Israel $30 billion in military aid? Methinks they speak with a forked tongue.

[Saladin]

Roses are reddish, violets are bluish

If it wasn't for Christmas the whole world would be Jewish