A new Monk ?

[sanemax]

I have just  seen recent  photos (Taken yesterday )of a 9 year old Thai boy in orange Monks robes .

There are also other photos of him and a group of other kids his age just before in regular clothes at the Temple .

  He had his head shaved and was then wearing orange robes .

What does this signify ?

(Has he joined the Temple as a Monk or is this just a temporary ceremonial thing ?

The Boy is my Sons cousin and I just wondered what is going on) 

[camerata]

He's been ordained as a novice monk. This is for children, but it can be done by adults as a preparation for full ordination.

[nausea]

It means nothing, being ordained on a temporary basis is a rite of passage for most male Thais. It's also what Thais do when they need a break from life or their job. I was told they're allowed to do this three tines, legally, but I assume this applies to Government type jobs.

[hookedondhamma]

What camerata wrote is probably the case.

 

There is another, though.  When someone dies their grandchildren, nephews,  sometimes adults will ordain for a very short (around 1-3 days) time period.  This is called 'Fai' (like 'fi' in 'fire') and they do it to make merit for that deceased relative.  

 

You can tell often by the way their robes are worn if this is the case of not.

[billd766]

18 hours ago, hookedondhamma said:

What camerata wrote is probably the case.

 

There is another, though.  When someone dies their grandchildren, nephews,  sometimes adults will ordain for a very short (around 1-3 days) time period.  This is called 'Fai' (like 'fi' in 'fire') and they do it to make merit for that deceased relative.  

 

You can tell often by the way their robes are worn if this is the case of not.

 

My son, aged 11 at the time and several other children and a couple of adults from the family were monks for a couple of days after my MIL died last year.

[hookedondhamma]

That's the 'fai' ordination.  That's wonderful they did it :-)  Maybe next time you'll go for it? (it's very short as you've noticed, and you can see how daily stuff is done around the wat)

 

*Sorry I couldn't answer you directly; it's difficult to quote with the overhaul.

[honu]

On 10/8/2016 at 4:22 PM, camerata said:

He's been ordained as a novice monk. This is for children, but it can be done by adults as a preparation for full ordination.

 

What is the age cut-off for novice (samanane) ordination?  I mean if a young person wanted to enter monkhood for a short time at what age would that relate to a full ordination as a monk, as opposed to as a novice?  I'd assume it would relate to conventional adulthood, 18 or so, perhaps more like 16 since this convention is from an older culture, but I don't know.

 

I do know the lower limit for becoming a novice, since our "family monk" has kept us posted on when our son could have become one:  prior to the age of 8, around 6 or 7.  Our son wants nothing to do with that though. 

[godblessemall]

The lower limit for Novice seems to be about seven years old. No upper limit as all monks ordain as novice before proceeding to full ordination at whatever age. Full ordination is only available to those over twenty years of age. Most novices who are in it for the free education have completed their Prathom 6 by then and left to continue a normal life. Those who remain and take full ordination are more likely to stay for a long time.

Foreigners can ordain as a novice and stay that way if they prefer at whatever age. One cannot tell by the way they dress if they are a novice or a monk. Thais give less respect to Novices than full monks because they are mostly kids, and any act of merit is considered to be greater if done with one who is keeping 227 precepts as opposed to ten. The novice has ten precepts, extended from the lay persons eight with the addition of not handling money, but they also have a further 60 of the monks precepts which they are also expected to try their best to keep, but do not get punished for being lax. A monk has to report any lapse in the 227 precepts to fellow monks and some require punishment.

At the full ordination to monk the novice declares himself free from debt and not trying to escape the law.

A foreigner who might want to live the life of a monk but be restrained by less difficult precepts, and perhaps with remaining debt such as mortgage or bank loans or credit cards etc. could choose to remain as a novice.

Although novices have the seniority of their ordination date, as do monks, a novice of 50 years seniority is always lower than a monk ordained that day.

 

[honu]

On 12/16/2016 at 5:02 AM, godblessemall said:

The lower limit for Novice seems to be about seven years old. No upper limit as all monks ordain as novice before proceeding to full ordination at whatever age. Full ordination is only available to those over twenty years of age. Most novices who are in it for the free education have completed their Prathom 6 by then and left to continue a normal life...

 

 

Most of this matches my understanding, although I hadn't been aware of a 20 year old cut off for full ordination.

 

People ordaining as temporary monks don't first ordain as a novice, and I wasn't familiar with the practice of anyone doing that (or with the opposite, really, I don't know if it's correct or not).

[godblessemall]

Perhaps those ordaining 'buat fai' (ordain at the fire (funeral pyre)) only ordain as novices then and not full monks.

 

[hookedondhamma]

↑↑

 

Yep.  Novices,  as they only uphold 10 precepts.  I have no idea to the meaning,  but they ordain not at the crematorium but usually the abbot' s hut.  It's a very simple ceremony.

[godblessemall]

Ordination to novice should be done in the Viharn and takes about 30 minutes but the disrobing can be done at the abbots guti and takes five minutes.

 

[hookedondhamma]

if a formal ceremony,  in the uposotha hall, or viharn if an uposotha hallisnhall isn't available.   For the 'fai' ordinations, they aren't considered formal but done wherever in the temple appropriate to the time constraints.   Many do it on the day of the cremation, when there's alot going on.

[honu]

My son did actually do that too, ordained, as part of a group of 88 novices in a program by Wat Pho to observe the birthday of HRH Princess Sirinthorn:  http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2018/03/my-son-becomes-novice-monk-samanane-in.html

[honu]

I wrote a second post about how Keoni liked that experience of being a Thai Buddhist novice monk, with a bit more on our reasoning about why it seemed a good idea.  My wife is Thai, so that part was more straightforward on her end, just a normal thing to do:  http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2018/04/keonis-take-on-being-thai-buddhist.html