Reducing The Heat In The House

[Naam]

46 minutes ago, Linzz said:

Looks like the postings are shaping up to look more like the traditional Thai house with modern add ons.

except the "stilted" (pun intended) fairy tale which keeps a home cooler by breezes passing under it

[Naam]

5 hours ago, Grubster said:

I haven't seen a home without insulation over the ceiling, regardless if the roof is insulated. You still need a barrier to separate a hot space from a climate controlled space. 

in Florida no ceiling insulation no OK from the county's building department. minimum requirement R30 (years ago). must be more now.

[CGW]

33 minutes ago, Naam said:

except the "stilted" (pun intended) fairy tale which keeps a home cooler by breezes passing under it

The other myth that should be laid to rest is the open windows plus breeze is enough to stay cool!

The few days in a year when the breeze is sufficient to be cooling the breeze is near diverted as soon as the insect screens are closed!

[Grubster]

2 hours ago, Naam said:

envisage a steep roof with a big overhang Grubster. the end of the overhang will come down too low. that can be compensated by having higher outside walls or by a crooked roof which looks like...

14' outside walls with 10' ceilings for me, looks great.

[Grubster]

25 minutes ago, CGW said:

The other myth that should be laid to rest is the open windows plus breeze is enough to stay cool!

The few days in a year when the breeze is sufficient to be cooling the breeze is near diverted as soon as the insect screens are closed!

Correct and I would much rather keep the humidity at a reasonably constant level to stop wood from swelling and shrinking. Mildew is a problem too. Also you can keep most of the toxic air out.

[Fookhaht]

I will be building in a year or so, and am considering first putting up a huge shed roof on steel poles, then building a house under it.  I believe it would solve a number of cooling challenges in this climate.  Here are a couple of photos illustrating my idea.   Your thoughts?  

 

From somewhere in Thailand....

 

One of my Thai friends is actually constructing such a home (following):

 

The below photo is somewhat distorted (compressed horizontally).  The roof is much wider and lower pitched as shown in the exterior finished photo below it.  

The house is almost finished (exterior view).  The upstairs bedrooms have a second roof under the shed roof for air-conditioning and keeping out the vermin.   The shed roof provides some wonderful shade for two outside balconies.  Really like the idea.  

 

 

Here's one of the outside-but-under-cover balconies which make use of natural ventilation and the buffer between the house roof and shed roof.

 

Highly interested in the feedback from forum members....

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Fookhaht

[Grubster]

39 minutes ago, Naam said:

in Florida no ceiling insulation no OK from the county's building department. minimum requirement R30 (years ago). must be more now.

Never seen an insulated roof in the US, unless it was a flat roof.

 

45 minutes ago, Naam said:

in Florida no ceiling insulation no OK from the county's building department. minimum requirement R30 (years ago). must be more now.

 

5 minutes ago, Fookhaht said:

I will be building in a year or so, and am considering first putting up a huge shed roof on steel poles, then building a house under it.  I believe it would solve a number of cooling challenges in this climate.  Here are a couple of photos illustrating my idea.   Your thoughts?  

 

From somewhere in Thailand....

 

One of my Thai friends is actually constructing such a home (following):



The house is almost finished (exterior view).  The upstairs bedrooms have a second roof under the shed roof for air-conditioning and keeping out the vermin.   The shed roof provides some wonderful shade for two outside balconies.  Really like the idea.  

 

 

Here's one of the outside-but-under-cover balconies which make use of natural ventilation and the buffer between the house roof and shed roof.

 

Highly interested in the feedback from forum members....

 

I think it would work very well, I would be a little concerned about nesting birds.

[Fookhaht]

1 minute ago, Grubster said:

 

 

 

I think it would work very well, I would be a little concerned about nesting birds.

Ah yes, something for the kids to do with their slingshots.  

[Grubster]

3 hours ago, Naam said:

 

another problem in Thailand is that quite often one of the three phases have a brown-out or are completely off. 48k btu/h and higher rated compressor/condensers need a 3-phase connection. you either protect the units then you are without aircondition or the units are damaged.

Yes and better make sure they check rotation on the motors. Three phase is much more efficient.

[Fookhaht]

5 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Yes and better make sure they check rotation on the motors. Three phase is much more efficient.

Anyone know the Thai expression for "three-phase connection?"  I want to be able to ask the local electricity offices as to their ability to provide such, as I scout out land. 

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, Fookhaht said:

Anyone know the Thai expression for "three-phase connection?"  I want to be able to ask the local electricity offices as to their ability to provide such, as I scout out land. 

 

Likely won't need it unless you are building something substantially big with very large consumption. Are you? I wouldn't want it to be a deal breaker for a piece of land if you don't really need it. 

[Grubster]

3 minutes ago, Fookhaht said:

Anyone know the Thai expression for "three-phase connection?"  I want to be able to ask the local electricity offices as to their ability to provide such, as I scout out land. 

Just tell them three"Som" wire. Keep in mind you may not have three phase on the poles near you. I have it nearby but am not going to use it as they take the single phase off the same lines and don't balance the amount taken from each line very well causing a brown or weak line sometimes. If you are near big power lines that should be less likely..

[Strange]

42 minutes ago, Fookhaht said:

I will be building in a year or so, and am considering first putting up a huge shed roof on steel poles, then building a house under it.  I believe it would solve a number of cooling challenges in this climate.  Here are a couple of photos illustrating my idea.   Your thoughts?  

 

My thoughts are that if its a design idea that you like and its aesthetically pleasing to you, then by all means build what you like. For me though, the idea of building a roof, over your roof, is a little bit much if the reason its there is to keep the sun off the house. The house already has a roof, and if built correctly and insulated properly the roof does not have a very large effect on the temp inside the house. Even in Isaan the basic materials are readily available to build an efficient home with one roof. Again, if its the aesthetics of 2 roofs you like, then thats what matters, but if not, I promise you it can be done a lot better with a thought out regular house. 

 

Looking at your last pic, that porch/balcony area is gonna be hot. The overhang drops down too far on the sides to catch the breeze. Roof needs to be planned better so that its a lot higher or the angle/pitch changed so the overhang blocks the sun not the breeze. 

 

A big factor is going to be if you want to efficiently run air-conditioning or not. Pretty much you got to know what you want out of the house before you start building. The house should be purpose built to your needs. 

[Fookhaht]

6 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

My thoughts are that if its a design idea that you like and its aesthetically pleasing to you, then by all means build what you like. For me though, the idea of building a roof, over your roof, is a little bit much if the reason its there is to keep the sun off the house. The house already has a roof, and if built correctly and insulated properly the roof does not have a very large effect on the temp inside the house. Even in Isaan the basic materials are readily available to build an efficient home with one roof. Again, if its the aesthetics of 2 roofs you like, then thats what matters, but if not, I promise you it can be done a lot better with a thought out regular house. 

 

Looking at your last pic, that porch/balcony area is gonna be hot. The overhang drops down too far on the sides to catch the breeze. Roof needs to be planned better so that its a lot higher or the angle/pitch changed so the overhang blocks the sun not the breeze. 

 

A big factor is going to be if you want to efficiently run air-conditioning or not. Pretty much you got to know what you want out of the house before you start building. The house should be purpose built to your needs. 

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed feedback.  

Frankly, aesthetics are pretty far down on the list for me, while practical functionality is on top.  Another idea of the "double roof" is for the top-most roof to cover a much larger area than the house--providing a large shaded area to enjoy outdoor living a little more.  Of course, that could be provided by trees;  but with a lot less care and maintenance.  I plan on the trees too--but a bit further out.   Your caveat on the low overhang is well-advised.  

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Grubster said:

14' outside walls with 10' ceilings for me, looks great.

we have 12' ceilings but our outside walls vary because of a slight slope front to back and (in front) right to left.

[Strange]

31 minutes ago, Fookhaht said:

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed feedback.  

Frankly, aesthetics are pretty far down on the list for me, while practical functionality is on top.  Another idea of the "double roof" is for the top-most roof to cover a much larger area than the house--providing a large shaded area to enjoy outdoor living a little more.  Of course, that could be provided by trees;  but with a lot less care and maintenance.  I plan on the trees too--but a bit further out.   Your caveat on the low overhang is well-advised.  

 

I know exactly what you are talking about in regards to a very large overhang. 

 

You can have this under 1 roof no problem. You can generally go out about 5 meters around your entire house under the same roof, you just have to have extra support columns at the ends and on the same grid as your house as the roof sits on the columns. This is not very costly as its planned. Requires extra footings and ground beams but its not a wall and won't be rendered. Decorative tile can be applied. You can carry your interior ceiling elevation right out onto your huge porch. Say you want 4 meter ceilings, you can carry the same line right outside for another 4-5 meters. Thats huge. You can probably get away with 3 meters overhang with a steel roof and no columns as well. All with local material and local tech. 

[Grubster]

4 minutes ago, Naam said:

we have 12' ceilings but our outside walls vary because of a slight slope front to back and (in front) right to left.

I take it you weren't here when they pulled that stunt. Or maybe your concrete apron is what is sloping.

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Fookhaht said:

I will be building in a year or so, and am considering first putting up a huge shed roof on steel poles, then building a house under it.  I believe it would solve a number of cooling challenges in this climate.  Here are a couple of photos illustrating my idea.   Your thoughts?  

 

From somewhere in Thailand....

 

One of my Thai friends is actually constructing such a home (following):
The below photo is somewhat distorted (compressed horizontally).  The roof is much wider and lower pitched as shown in the exterior finished photo below it.  

The house is almost finished (exterior view).  The upstairs bedrooms have a second roof under the shed roof for air-conditioning and keeping out the vermin.   The shed roof provides some wonderful shade for two outside balconies.  Really like the idea.  

 

Here's one of the outside-but-under-cover balconies which make use of natural ventilation and the buffer between the house roof and shed roof.
 

Highly interested in the feedback from forum members....

 

 

any structural engineer would warn that these single poles are unsafe at high winds although the roof is horizontal and does not have the resistance of a huge billboard. a second roof is not such a bad idea. but as far as cost is concerned i suggest to compare it with the cost of Qcon/Superblock double walls. preventing radiation on outside walls totally is nearly impossible. and the morning and evening sun hits at an angle that causes nearly as much radiation efficiency as in the "hot" hours.

[Grubster]

2 hours ago, Fookhaht said:

Ah yes, something for the kids to do with their slingshots.  

I'm not sure but from the looks of things the heat from the upper roof could pour out and up causing a natural updraft bringing a breeze towards the house from all sides on a perfectly calm day. Kind of like the huge vents they put on a barn causing a chimney effect to dry the hay and keep the inside cooler.

[carlyai]

Anyone know the Thai expression for "three-phase connection?"  I want to be able to ask the local electricity offices as to their ability to provide such, as I scout out land. 

I built the house to reduce the need for a/c as much as possible.
8" q-con walls, white metal insulated roof and large windows on opposite walls of the rifms, 14 foot ceiling in the living room.
As I said, if you're on a ladder, near the ceiling is the hottest part of the house, thus the idea of the vents.
For the vast majority of the year, we're fine with fans. Around Songkran this year it would have been nice to have a/c since it was hot even for Thailand.
So before next year, I'll put a/c in the bedrooms just to have somewhere to get a break from the heat if it's as hot again.

 
Likely won't need it unless you are building something substantially big with very large consumption. Are you? I wouldn't want it to be a deal breaker for a piece of land if you don't really need it. 

saam phase [emoji3]


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[Gumballl]

On 10/11/2016 at 5:34 AM, Psychic said:

I used an insulated white metal roof.

If I stick my head through the hole in the ceiling it actually feels much cooler than the top of the room where the heat accumulates.

So much so, that I am considering ceiling vents so that heat can escape.

Then you should have just built your ceilings higher.  Heat rises; thus it is no wonder that you perceive a difference in temperature as you climb a ladder, and then ultimately poke your head into the attic.  Go into the attic, and you will find that the air just before the roof line is also very hot.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

Just tell them three"Som" wire. Keep in mind you may not have three phase on the poles near you. I have it nearby but am not going to use it as they take the single phase off the same lines and don't balance the amount taken from each line very well causing a brown or weak line sometimes. If you are near big power lines that should be less likely..

asking for "sam" wire might cause a smile at the PEA because a 3-phase connection requires 4 wires. what the PEA wants is a valid reason for a 3-ph request, e.g.  claiming you plan to install a dozen aircons would be a start. i was lucky because 3-phase was already available when we started to build. the PEA had to install only the meter when the home was finished.

 

[Gumballl]

Just now, Naam said:

asking for "sam" wire might cause a smile at the PEA because a 3-phase connection requires 4 wires. what the PEA wants is a valid reason for a 3-ph request, e.g.  claiming you plan to install a dozen aircons would be a start. i was lucky because 3-phase was already available when we started to build. the PEA had to install only the meter when the home was finished.

 

Boy, it must have been difficult to diffuse bombs during the days when there was no color.  How could the bomb technician know which wire is the red one?

[Grubster]

5 minutes ago, Naam said:

asking for "sam" wire might cause a smile at the PEA because a 3-phase connection requires 4 wires. what the PEA wants is a valid reason for a 3-ph request, e.g.  claiming you plan to install a dozen aircons would be a start. i was lucky because 3-phase was already available when we started to build. the PEA had to install only the meter when the home was finished.

 

Yes I neglected the common wire,  I have it 200 meters from my land running on poles but the single phase is coming from a different direction right up to my land and I'm at the end of that line. If I want the three phase I would have to either buy the transformer for the big lines or put poles in about a half of a kilo to pick up an existing transformer,  I can't believe how small my electric bills have been so far with all the welding, cutting, grinding, mixing etc, they have been doing.  I have been paying double for my power in the rental house which is standard procedure for Thai landlords. I should have never told the Mrs that though, she is pissed. I put all my wires under ground from the pole and all the outbuildings and stuff up though the concrete floor in the electrical room, so no wires hanging anywhere for ants or other critters to run on. I did that and all the plumbing myself. I was going to do the main breaker box too, but my electrician is fantastic, I told him I don't want any connections above the ceiling except for lights, He said thats gonna take a lot of wire, He was happy to do it though as I buy everything anyway. All grounded too of course.

[Naam]

54 minutes ago, Grubster said:

I take it you weren't here when they pulled that stunt. Or maybe your concrete apron is what is sloping.

 

for 11 months i was 95% the first one on the site and the last one to leave. these two slopes are not a stunt but planned by my [not so] humble self pertaining to lot drainage during heavy rains based on years of experience rainy seasons West-Africa, Indian monsoons and Florida hurricanes.

 

for the naked eye it's hardly visible because the difference is only 80-100cm over a distance of ~25m each front and one side. lot drainage is most important in our moo baan because except for the fronts the homes are enclosed from three sides by natural stone walls. no drainage and your house has waterfront all around.

[Naam]

40 minutes ago, Gumballl said:

Boy, it must have been difficult to diffuse bombs during the days when there was no color.  How could the bomb technician know which wire is the red one?

they clicked on them with a mouse

[Naam]

14 minutes ago, Grubster said:

I told him I don't want any connections above the ceiling except for lights,

pardon me... how did you run your wiring ??

[Grubster]

38 minutes ago, Naam said:

 

for 11 months i was 95% the first one on the site and the last one to leave. these two slopes are not a stunt but planned by my [not so] humble self pertaining to lot drainage during heavy rains based on years of experience rainy seasons West-Africa, Indian monsoons and Florida hurricanes.

 

for the naked eye it's hardly visible because the difference is only 80-100cm over a distance of ~25m each front and one side. lot drainage is most important in our moo baan because except for the fronts the homes are enclosed from three sides by natural stone walls. no drainage and your house has waterfront all around.

Ok it is the ground that is unlevel, mine is and will be more so after analyzing the water flow in the area, I would never take note of that slope, but if your soffit sloped from front to back I could see that no matter what the ground did. No problem man I'm sure your house looks great. sounds big too. Good luck and I hope things settle down here and the rest of the world for all our sakes.

[Strange]

On 10/13/2016 at 6:15 PM, masuk said:

Don't know what the fuss is all about.  Spend  a few dollars, fly down and have a look!

 

Is your username Eban? Borneo Eban? 

[Strange]

11 hours ago, Grubster said:

I have been paying double for my power in the rental house which is standard procedure for Thai landlords. I should have never told the Mrs that though, she is pissed.

 

The Mrs is pissed for good reason, paying double per unit is not common practice unless you rent one of those partially furnished "Room" things on a monthly basis and usually because the meter per room isn't a PEA addressed meter. I forget the term, but its the same meter they will put up during the construction phase of a home without an address. 8 baht something per unit. This can be circumvented by buying your own meter but the Thais don't like to rent from a place that does not have a PEA calibrated meter. They believe they will be overcharged. 

 

Even then, if you rent a house, the bill for electric comes to the house and the renter pays the bill. Condos and stuff yeah some landlords like to overcharge for electric and water, but a house not so much. 

 

12 hours ago, Grubster said:

I told him I don't want any connections above the ceiling except for lights, He said thats gonna take a lot of wire, He was happy to do it though as I buy everything anyway. All grounded too of course.

 

How are you going to run your wiring? Through the floor? Grind out the walls?