Reducing The Heat In The House

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Linzz said:

Ancient airconditioners of Persia are worth a look if you like the unconventional. but there's a  modern one in Utah.

"windcatchers" provide some relief due to the draft like a fan. but calling them "ancient airconditioning" and adding

Quote

What happens is that the circulation gives the feeling of the air being chilled. As the air moves it increases an evaporative cooling effect.

is a journalistic result from an ignorant who has never experienced 5-8% relative humidity in Tehran, Baghdad or Riyadh where evaporative cooling effects do not exist during the hot season. you step out of a shower, blink your eyes five times and start wearing your clothes. no need for a towel. ideal situations to use highly efficient evaporative cooling systems using water.

[Strange]

2 hours ago, Linzz said:

I agree that a hole in the ground is cooling too in countries where the earth is cooler than the surrounding air.

 

Linzz, Its not really countries, its world wide really. Its the temp of the earths core radiating outward that maintains the underground temps, not the effect of the sun on the surface. 

[Naam]

Just now, Strange said:

 

Linzz, Its not really countries, its world wide really. Its the temp of the earths core radiating outward that maintains the underground temps, not the effect of the sun on the surface. 

correct! sun heating effect not below 80-100cm. the water temperature of my borewell is a constant 20-21ºC. unfortunately the available water volume is insufficient during the dry season to use the water for cooling purposes. otherwise i would have installed watercooled condensers and save at least 50% on aircon electricity. 

[Fookhaht]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

"windcatchers" provide some relief due to the draft like a fan. but calling them "ancient airconditioning" and adding

is a journalistic result from an ignorant who has never experienced 5-8% relative humidity in Tehran, Baghdad or Riyadh where evaporative cooling effects do not exist during the hot season. you step out of a shower, blink your eyes five times and start wearing your clothes. no need for a towel. ideal situations to use highly efficient evaporative cooling systems using water.

I was fascinated by a system used at Scotty's Castle in Death Valley, California USA.  Built early last century.  



Water pours down interior walls made of stone, and then over a 1-meter gap above the floor,  like an open waterfall, where breezes blow through the water, cooling the air.  This system was backed up by water-soaked burlap placed behind a wall vent and ducted with air flow from the basement.

I've been there two or three times, once on a hot day in summer (above 110 Fahrenheit/43 Celsius), and the castle was always delightfully cool and refreshing.  The sound of running water inside the castle, like a fountain or small waterfall, added psychological comfort and contrast to the hot, dry outside desert.  

 

Even now, in Arizona and California, people use "swamp coolers" which work on the same principle.  

 

Of course, adding water-sodden air to already tropical air doesn't make sense in Thai context.  So how do places like Macro in Thailand get away with selling essentially the same technology in portable units?  

 

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by Fookhaht

[Naam]

7 minutes ago, Fookhaht said:

Even now, in Arizona and California, people use "swamp coolers" which work on the same principle.  

castles in Rajasthan, India used this principle more than a thousand years ago.  

[Grubster]

17 hours ago, Naam said:

there's no such thing like removing a "ceiling" if an electric connection fails. actually i don't know what's the definition of "wires in the ceiling" is.

 

my ceilings are gypsum boards, no wires "in" them. all my wiring is above the ceilings and above the ceiling insulation in the attic. from there the wiring goes down in PVC conduits embedded in the wall. the pipes are not the usual ½" but ¾ and 1" providing ample space to add or remove wiring without hassle. that kind of work was carried out several times during the last three years to connect additional rooms and consuming gadgets to presently four inverters powered by battery banks. more to be installed soon.

 

so here's my question "where's the beef that requires ceiling removal?"

Well if you go back and look at the post of reference I said Wire connections above the ceiling, not wire above the ceiling, Big difference, you do not have wire connections above your ceiling or you would not have been able to make the changes you did without either crawling on the ceiling or cutting some ceiling out. So good on ya, you did it right.

[Strange]

7 hours ago, Fookhaht said:

Of course, adding water-sodden air to already tropical air doesn't make sense in Thai context.  So how do places like Macro in Thailand get away with selling essentially the same technology in portable units?

 

Because people are gullible and don't want to do any research. 

 

Because Makro sales people (any commercial sales people here really) will flat out lie and make shit up just to get you to buy something. 

 

[Strange]

51 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Well if you go back and look at the post of reference I said Wire connections above the ceiling, not wire above the ceiling, Big difference, you do not have wire connections above your ceiling or you would not have been able to make the changes you did without either crawling on the ceiling or cutting some ceiling out. So good on ya, you did it right.

Unless I'm missing something, Naam or his employees were crawling in the ceiling to make these changes. 

 

Whats wrong with conduit boxes/electrical boxes with connections in the ceiling? I mean its giving access points to your circuits & stuff. Connections are a GOOD thing and won't go bad if done correctly. You can tap in and retrofit later plus it will be impossible to pull a solid core wire/romex through all that, and even then you will be in the ceiling to run a new circuit. 

 

I think it needs to be said that when building a home, the ceiling needs to be accessible. Are you having your guys weld in some extra metal material so you have access to stuff once its all done? Still got to be able to walk/move around up there after its complete. 

 

Edit:

 

So you are saying that for every plug outlet on the wall, you are going to have double the wiring going down the wall? Meaning 2 sets of 3 wire romex OR 6 individual solid core wires so that you can "Daisy Chain" your outlets? 

 

This is going to be a pain in the ass (if not impossible) trying to stuff all that into an outlet box and make all the connections even with the pigtails.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Strange

[Grubster]

20 minutes ago, Strange said:

Unless I'm missing something, Naam or his employees were crawling in the ceiling to make these changes. 

 

Whats wrong with conduit boxes/electrical boxes with connections in the ceiling? I mean its giving access points to your circuits & stuff. Connections are a GOOD thing and won't go bad if done correctly. You can tap in and retrofit later plus it will be impossible to pull a solid core wire/romex through all that, and even then you will be in the ceiling to run a new circuit. 

 

I think it needs to be said that when building a home, the ceiling needs to be accessible. Are you having your guys weld in some extra metal material so you have access to stuff once its all done? Still got to be able to walk/move around up there after its complete. 

 

Edit:

 

So you are saying that for every plug outlet on the wall, you are going to have double the wiring going down the wall? Meaning 2 sets of 3 wire romex OR 6 individual solid core wires so that you can "Daisy Chain" your outlets? 

 

This is going to be a pain in the ass (if not impossible) trying to stuff all that into an outlet box and make all the connections even with the pigtails.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about, using the deeper boxes in the wall, using stranded single wires in conduits, same amount of connections as if in box above the ceiling, still have three wire nuts with three wires in each only its right behind your outlet instead of above the ceiling. No box in the ceiling, only a tee for the conduit running past. You can do the same with romex in the wall. I have no reason to get up in the ceiling. Very easy to install and very easy to fix. Being in conduit I can add a communications wire or change a light to a three way any time to any outlet or switch box I have without ever going up in the attic. 

[Naam]

14 hours ago, Strange said:

Unless I'm missing something, Naam or his employees were crawling in the ceiling to make these changes. 

can we stick to clear definitions please? the only creatures i can think of who can crawl in ceilings are termites. when we work on wiring installed above the ceiling my maintenance man (in very rare cases me too) is working in the attic. there's also no need to access the connection boxes in a crawling position. they are all positioned where a man of normal height can stand.

 

off topic: my maintenance man (and personal assistant) is a 34 year old Thai. initially a car mechanic, 2 years service Thai Navy maintenance department. hired 10½ years ago as a driver for my wife. zero English but knew Tesco, Carrefour, Friendship and Foodland. it took me a full year to find out that i discovered a valuable raw diamond which only needed cutting and honing. provided private English tutoring and there is nowadays virtually no maintenance, repair work or new technical installations for which we need an outside contractor. his starting salary was THB 8,000/month. today he earns (bonuses and perks included) the equivalent of a Farang teaching English in a rural area Thai school. taking into consideration his actual working hours he makes double the money of the above-mentioned Farang teacher. needless to say that for every Baht i pay him his work is worth triple (or more).

[Strange]

Crawling/walking/doing humanoid movements above the ceiling and below the roof in the attic space...... 

 

1 hour ago, Naam said:

taking into consideration his actual working hours he makes double the money of the above-mentioned Farang teacher. needless to say that for every Baht i pay him his work is worth triple (or more).

 

You got lucky in his skill AND interest to to learn/better himself. So many don't have that, and don't care. 

[Naam]

59 minutes ago, Strange said:

Crawling/walking/doing humanoid movements above the ceiling and below the roof in the attic space...... 

 

 

You got lucky in his skill AND interest to to learn/better himself. So many don't have that, and don't care. 

the chap is amazing. he doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, (claims) he doesn't gamble but doesn't know how to handle money which is obviously a typical Thai weakness i was told.

[Strange]

8 minutes ago, Naam said:

doesn't know how to handle money which is obviously a typical Thai weakness i was told.

 

Meh.... Typical Thai weakness, but worldwide too. My own brother could probably give any thai a run for their money.

[selftaopath]

On 10/11/2016 at 11:59 AM, Strange said:

What was the insulation thickness? 

 

I had 6" insulation above the ceiling and that foil stuff under the roof tiles. 

 

I had a gable roof and added 2 thermostatic vent fans in the top set to come on at 25 C and pull hot air out of the ceiling space. 

 

Was very very effective and living room/kitchen had 3 huge sliding doors and a lot of sunlight

Thanks for your post. Do you know where thermostatic vent fans can be gotten in Khonkaen? I think I'd opt for one or two. I have difficulty finding modern items. In US I had a "whole house" fan. It really did a nice job of bring air into the house... but not desirable if the air is HOT. Could bring a breeze however.

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, selftaopath said:

Thanks for your post. Do you know where thermostatic vent fans can be gotten in Khonkaen? I think I'd opt for one or two. I have difficulty finding modern items. In US I had a "whole house" fan. It really did a nice job of bring air into the house... but not desirable if the air is HOT. Could bring a breeze however.

I had problems finding a thermostatically controlled fan in Chiang Mai so I cobbled one together using a decent exhaust fan that I sized to the roof void (important) whislt a friend in the UK purchased a domestic thermostatic switch used for aircon and heat control. The switch control dial only went up to 35 degrees but if you remove the plastic limiter tab you can get it to detect at 40 degrees plus - it works really well and is a simple installation between the fan and the power supply (install the switch sensor at about three feet off the attic floor and try to have an independent power switch in the living space (to switch the fan off when you're away etc).

[carlyai]

I've just come home to the Isaan house after 3 weeks away.

1. The Isaan house has monier red cement tiles, double sided insulation under them, with a 2 " gap between tiles and insulation.

A very small ceiling roof space.

High cathedral type exposed beams internal build with red brick cavity walls and expensive paint job.

2. The shed has 10 cm Qcon blocks with red type colourbond (insulation underneath) as part of the roof sandwich.

There is an free flow air space under the roof.

So returning to the abode and getting out of the car in the garage, it was warm.

Now, entering the house, locked up for 3 weeks, it was lovely and cool.

Without scientific knowledge, the cement tiled, red bricked, small ceiling house is cooler than the metal/insulation sandwiched roof and Qcon brick construction.



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[Strange]

5 hours ago, selftaopath said:

Thanks for your post. Do you know where thermostatic vent fans can be gotten in Khonkaen? I think I'd opt for one or two. I have difficulty finding modern items. In US I had a "whole house" fan. It really did a nice job of bring air into the house... but not desirable if the air is HOT. Could bring a breeze however.

 

OK I sold the house that had the fans, but Ill try and link you to the basic system I made. I couldn't find a kit so made one. 

 

I bought 4 of the biggest CFM fans I could find, that were moderately quiet (no calculation or science, anything is an improvement). I bought 4, kept 2 for spare parts. Took them apart and made a fixture to mount them in the ridge vent on the inside so they couldn't be seen and in an orientation to pull air out of the attic. 

 

Bought a temp controller like this, shows current temp where the probes are, cut in and cut out set-points. 

 

http://www.lazada.co.th/220v12v-digital-led-temperature-controller-10a-thermostat-controlswitchprobe-12v-8816815.html

 

 

With a longer probe (I think I bought like 6m probes) 

 

http://www.lazada.co.th/thermistor-accuracy-temperature-sensor-10k-3435-waterproof-probe-4m-9008087.html

 

 

And wired it up so that the controller switches the fans directly. I cut the plugs off and wired direct, but you can install outlets and switch the outlet. Gotta do a little checking about the amperage draw of the fans and the rated capacity of the switch though. 

 

Cut a hole in front of a metal switch box and mounted the controller on it. Ran the probe through conduit into the attic space and wiring for the fans back to the switch box. Mounted the switch box next to the breaker panel on the wall to get power from and its convenient as the breaker panel was central in the home. Switch Box was kinda like the one below. 

 

 

 

I only had like 4-5K baht into it. Its not hard or complicated, just have to do a little figuring. The thais building the house and helping me could not figure out what I was doing and thought I was crazy. Worked good though. 

 

Edit:

 

I also had electronic controllers for watering the grass outside automatically and on a timer mounted in/on the metal switch box as well. For convenience so I could just change the times they came on and the length of time they stayed on, from inside the house. So it was a multifaceted deal and worked out pretty good and serviceable. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Strange

[bokningar]

On 10/13/2016 at 1:01 PM, Naam said:

the air volume of a stilted area is not miraculously converted into a measurable "thermal mass" when enclosed.

 

air is a low density gas and has the least capacity of absorbing and storing heat and the least resistance to change of temperatures (thermal physics 101 which i studied half a century ago).

 

[gk10002000]

I am a mechanical engineer that majored in heat transfer a long time ago.  My co worker here in sunny San Diego bought a fairly large house and he is a PhD in a different field.  He has a long porch/veranda with windows along the sunny side of his  house that of course had a lot of sun load.  Most people of course will close the shades or blinds.  He installed remote control operated shades on the Outside of the house windows!  Point and click and they go up and down on their rollers.  Since they are under the porch roof/eave, there is no real weather or rain issue.  The shades on the outside work as a sun shield umbrella.  Frankly, If I had the time or energy I would come up with some thing similar to that that would go on a house roof and that would act like an umbrella.  People would be surprised how effective a sun shade/umbrella would be.

[carlyai]

 

I love the pics, can you learn me about the red arrows and the numbers and W symbol.

Remember I was only a teacher, and, though we think so, we don't know everything. [emoji6]

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[bokningar]

8 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I love the pics, can you learn me about the red arrows and the numbers and W symbol.

Remember I was only a teacher, and, though we think so, we don't know everything.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

Watt of energy going in direction of the arrow I think.

But I have been wrong before.

And here in Thailand you can't be 100% sure of anything 55555

[Strange]

22 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Frankly, If I had the time or energy I would come up with some thing similar to that that would go on a house roof and that would act like an umbrella. 

 

I mean energy wise I'm lazy as shit lol. I just make stuff up and hire guys to climb around installing it with my supervision. Cheap labor is great. 

[Strange]

Just now, bokningar said:

Watt of energy going in direction of the arrow I think.

But I have been wrong before.

And here in Thailand you can't be 100% sure of anything 55555

 

So you are not sure of what you posted?

[gk10002000]

15 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I love the pics, can you learn me about the red arrows and the numbers and W symbol.

Remember I was only a teacher, and, though we think so, we don't know everything.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

The arrows show the direction of heat or energy flow.  A key thing is how the stilted house, that many people do with open air flow really is not that good once the outside air warms up.  The enclosed air flow stilt floor keeps the hot outside air from circulating under the house.

[Strange]

1 minute ago, gk10002000 said:

The arrows show the direction of heat or energy flow.  A key thing is how the stilted house, that many people do with open air flow really is not that good once the outside air warms up.  The enclosed air flow stilt floor keeps the hot outside air from circulating under the house.

 

So he unintentionally confirmed Naam's post.

[carlyai]

Watt of energy going in direction of the arrow I think.

But I have been wrong before.

And here in Thailand you can't be 100% sure of anything 55555

Ahhhhh, I thought that, but come on....you can't write degree numbers (which I did understand), then draw red arrows, then write numbers in Watts and expect me to understand it. Those wattage numbers need more explanation. Without the Falang writing, those pics look like street signs at the top of the Pattaya look out, and there, no one knows which way to go.[emoji21]

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[carlyai]

Ahhhhh, I thought that, but come on....you can't write degree numbers (which I did understand), then draw red arrows, then write numbers in Watts and expect me to understand it. Those wattage numbers need more explanation. Without the Falang writing, those pics look like street signs at the top of the Pattaya look out, and there, no one knows which way to go.[emoji21]
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Let me have another go: so if there is about a 10 degree difference in temperature, you're pumping about 1Kw of energy into the house, making the house hotter.

Where as with the slab as part of the ground, you're taking 600 W of energy out of the house therefore making it cooler.

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[Naam]

14 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Let me have another go: so if there is about a 10 degree difference in temperature, you're pumping about 1Kw of energy into the house, making the house hotter.

Where as with the slab as part of the ground, you're taking 600 W of energy out of the house therefore making it cooler.

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ladies and gentlemen... WE HAVE A WINNER!

[Naam]

38 minutes ago, bokningar said:

Watt of energy going in direction of the arrow I think.

But I have been wrong before.

And here in Thailand you can't be 100% sure of anything 55555

you are not wrong! of course the heat transfer depends on the house' exposed "bottom" surface area. could be a multiple of 600W (down or up) with big homes.

[carlyai]

ladies and gentlemen... WE HAVE A WINNER! [emoji2]

Red wine all round....where I live....that means meeeee....weeeee.

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