Executing a Last Will and Testament without a lawyer

[davehowden]

On 10/19/2016 at 11:25 AM, NancyL said:

 

Jim, I advised him to go to a lawyer to have a will properly written -- that costs about 5000 baht in Chiang Mai for one that's produced both in Thai and English.  Be sure the lawyer doesn't name himself as Executor.

 

I didn't say anything about Probate, did I.  The cases I've been involved with have been with properly drawn Final Wills with simple assets of Thai banks accounts and personal property contained in a rental condo.  No vehicles.  Probate was avoided and funds were released by the bank to the Executor to disperse to the named Heirs.  Incidentally in Thailand, the Executor can also be an Heir.

 

Incidentally, I've heard lawyers here in Chiang Mai quote 20,000 baht for a simple probate if it's a clean situation with nothing more than vehicles and Thai bank accounts.  Maybe it does go as high as 50,000 baht if real estate is involved.  I don't know.  

Nancy, would you be kind enough to advise which lawyer in CM you have found to be fair and "honest", thank you.

[BlackJack]

On 2/3/2018 at 8:50 PM, BlackJack said:

i would not follow this persons advise as its illegal - armchair lawyers on every bar stool on Patts

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by BlackJack
wrong quote

[BlackJack]

On 2/5/2018 at 11:18 AM, JimGant said:

"....before approval and if the courts reverse a decision....." Ok, for a really simple Will, that only involves a bank account (or accounts), and only one beneficiary (me), and no one could reasonably contest such a Will -- only then, if someone comes forward contesting the Will's validity, and the court sides with that contester, will I have taken money unlawfully from the estate..... Is that what you're saying? If so, then otherwise, as the uncontested beneficiary of the wife's Will, I'm not doing anything illegal by transferring money from her account to mine.

 

Such a situation sounds akin to what Nancy mentioned earlier in this thread, where -- in her experience several times -- pragmatic bank managers would not require probate, and the freezing of accounts, to preclude the husband from the wife's bank account(s).

 

And it should be even more clear cut for joint accounts, even tho' we've seen reports on this forum where bank managers have frozen joint accounts upon death of one of the owners. However, according to Thai888 sources, I'd be completely within my rights to tap our joint account upon her death:

So, BJ, are you still saying it would be illegal, as an uncontested beneficiary, to clean out my wife's bank accounts? At least the joint account, right? If not, would I need to pay you 50,000 baht to probate said joint account?

 

 

 

As you know it is up to the Bank Managers and you if you have access to the accounts. 

In my experience if the amount is not large then the BM has allowed the money to be obtained.

Others mostly needed a Court Order from the provincial court. 

 

It is hard to nail down the system like this as you know it changes before and after lunch - depends on the day - 

 

[scorecard]

3 minutes ago, BlackJack said:

As you know it is up to the Bank Managers and you if you have access to the accounts. 

In my experience if the amount is not large then the BM has allowed the money to be obtained.

Others mostly needed a Court Order from the provincial court. 

 

It is hard to nail down the system like this as you know it changes before and after lunch - depends on the day - 

 

 And over many years, it can also occasionally depend on the honesty of the bank manager. 

[BlackJack]

On 1/31/2019 at 9:29 PM, stud858 said:

Is the Pattaya. Banglamung amphur dealing with foreigners again. I was told by staff they don't deal with foreigners anymore quite a while ago. 

Has anyone been recently to try will verification/acknowledgement with them.

the trouble with these Wills is that they are sealed. This is why many dont use them any more.

If you want to add assets to the Will then you have to break the seal and then its void. Assets can include new bank account, new passport, car, bike etc. 

 

[BlackJack]

A Law firm can be the Executor and it is not illegal.

Many people choose this as the Beneficiaries maybe overseas and work, or are old, or sick, no money to travel and pay air fare, hotel, costs etc. 

 

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, BlackJack said:

the trouble with these Wills is that they are sealed. This is why many dont use them any more.

If you want to add assets to the Will then you have to break the seal and then its void. Assets can include new bank account, new passport, car, bike etc. 

 

Break the seal and the will is void?

 

Is that legal? 

 

Seems to me that it could be only perhaps be be legal if it's stated as such in the body of the will, and even then it could be argued at law that if nobody knew of such a provision, unless they read the will, then it can't be legal.

 

My son is aware his Thai MIL has a will written and registered at her local amphur office, he asked her is it in a sealed envelope? Answer 'NO'.

 

He asked her if she's aware that she can change her will at any time and numerous times and do it at or not do it at the amphur office?

 

Answer: I don't know about that, and it's a good point to understand, I'll go and ask at the amphur office. (MIL is the kannan of her village and she's always keen to learn things and ensure she fully understands so she can give correct advice to the village folks.)

 

Ultimate answer was 'YES I can change it at any time, and anywhere, the amphur lady explained it like that, and she said, this document is totally up to you, if you want to change it just make sure that it's all correctly written and signed'.

 

Son asked her what about re-registering the changed will document at the amphur office?

 

Ultimate answer: 'amphur lady said it's better to get it registered again but it's not a legal requirement. Wills not registered at the amphur office are legal if they are correctly written'.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by scorecard

[BlackJack]

51 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Break the seal and the will is void?

 

Is that legal? 

 

Seems to me that it could be only perhaps be be legal if it's stated as such in the body of the will, and even then it could be argued at law that if nobody knew of such a provision, unless they read the will, then it can't be legal.

 

My son is aware his Thai MIL has a will written and registered at her local amphur office, he asked her is it in a sealed envelope? Answer 'NO'.

 

He asked her if she's aware that she can change her will at any time and numerous times and do it at or not do it at the amphur office?

 

Answer: I don't know about that, and it's a good point to understand, I'll go and ask at the amphur office. (MIL is the kannan of her village and she's always keen to learn things and ensure she fully understands so she can give correct advice to the village folks.)

 

Ultimate answer was 'YES I can change it at any time, and anywhere, the amphur lady explained it like that, and she said, this document is totally up to you, if you want to change it just make sure that it's all correctly written and signed'.

 

Son asked her what about re-registering the changed will document at the amphur office?

 

Ultimate answer: 'amphur lady said it's better to get it registered again but it's not a legal requirement. Wills not registered at the amphur office are legal if they are correctly written'.

 

 

 

 

 

we have been over this - its your choice to do one of the 5 ways to make a Will

it is up to you and the amphur lady

As you live in Thailand you know the system - in years to come if you go back to them and say the amphur lady said I could do it this way - they say she is no longer here?

thats when the fights start and this is why you should do your Will once and do it properly

all this depends on where you live too - 

 

[BlackJack]

On 2/1/2019 at 1:58 PM, scorecard said:

Can be both:

 

1. Some amphur offices will help to write the will and there are Thai staff to do That, but how knowledgeable they are about appropriate Thai laws and whether they are well versed in ensuring the will is not ambiguous etc., is an open question. 

 

2. Folks can take a will already written to the amphur office to have it registered at that amphur office.

Will is 5k

In Thai and English 

Witnessed by 2 people not Beneficiaries 

Each page signed including your passport and beneficiaries ID pages

Contact details of all parties

After signing scan copies and send to whoever you want

No need for amphur as lawyer keeps signed copy and you keep a signed copy

Amphur helps you write a Will ? Can you read write Thai and check what is written as the Thai normally is preferred in Court.

 

Good luck all.

[JimGant]

Any real world examples of probate being necessary, or not necessary, since this thread flamed out? Particularly curious about whether or not Amphur Wills need to go thru probate....

 

Anyway, there are enough examples thru Google search that indicate probate is NOT necessary, unless there is no Will, or if the Will is contested.  Here's the latest I found (but no way of assessing their bonafides -- can only assume they would not put out such a statement if they hadn't done their homework....).

 

Quote

Execution of the Will
There are no probate proceedings in Thailand. An executor is normally named in a will and his task is to notify the beneficiaries in the will, and then distribute the estate. Court approval is necessary only where the beneficiaries contest the will. There is not even a fixed date for the notification. A “reasonable time” is all that is required.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/how-to-draft-a-thai-will-7751

But, even with some more examples of probate necessary/not necessary, I guess we're still in the situation where "your mileage may vary." But, maybe I shouldn't worry, as I'm in the situation where I can't get Thai medical insurance, thus they won't let me die here anyways. Sigh.

[scorecard]

On 2/4/2019 at 2:20 PM, BlackJack said:

we have been over this - its your choice to do one of the 5 ways to make a Willn

it is up to you and the amphur lady

As you live in Thailand you know the system - in years to come if you go back to them and say the amphur lady said I could do it this way - they say she is no longer here?

thats when the fights start and this is why you should do your Will once and do it properly

all this depends on where you live too - 

 

Beware taking th 'instructions' of the amphur lady, 99% of these clerks have no legal training.

 

Example, my Thai nephew went with his Thai wife to the local amphur with his buddy who is a lawyer.

 

Amphur lady insisted it's Thai law that the will must indicate that the mother of the female gets 100,000Baht. Lawyer requested the amphur lady to show where the law states this. She couldn't, lawyer then revealed that he is lawyer, amphur lady disappeared and wasn't seen again. Another amphur lady took over after telling the husband, wife and lawyer that they were rude.

 

Further, same lawyer shared that he's aware of wills written at amphur offices which state: things which are illegal, things which can be interpreted 2 or more ways, things stated in one paragraph which clash with something written in another paragraph.   Beware.

[prakhonchai nick]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Any real world examples of probate being necessary, or not necessary, since this thread flamed out? Particularly curious about whether or not Amphur Wills need to go thru probate....

 

Anyway, there are enough examples thru Google search that indicate probate is NOT necessary, unless there is no Will, or if the Will is contested.  Here's the latest I found (but no way of assessing their bonafides -- can only assume they would not put out such a statement if they hadn't done their homework....).

 

But, even with some more examples of probate necessary/not necessary, I guess we're still in the situation where "your mileage may vary." But, maybe I shouldn't worry, as I'm in the situation where I can't get Thai medical insurance, thus they won't let me die here anyways. Sigh.

In my experience of assisting Thai widows, the Thai banks will not release a husbands funds with a death certificate and Will. They insist on a Thai form of probate, which requires the services of a lawyer. In the UK however, funds are normally released not only to pay for funeral expenses, but usually for amounts equivalent to 1 million baht or above in some cases when a death certificate and Will are provided by the executor.

 

An amphur Will may appeal to some Thais, but should never be utilised by "farangs", as there is always the language barrier, and inability to be sure what has been written down.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, prakhonchai nick said:

An amphur Will may appeal to some Thais, but should never be utilised by "farangs", as there is always the language barrier, and inability to be sure what has been written down.

My option would be the "secret" variety, where the Will is entirely written by you, and not seen by anyone in the Amphur. They just bless the fact that you were alive when you delivered it, and when they sealed and stamped it for safe keeping. But, if when my executor subsequently fetches it, after I croak -- if he then has to hire a lawyer to escort it thru probate -- why even bother with the Amphur?

[prakhonchai nick]

Joint bank accounts, internet banking and ATM cards are OK when you want the wife or partner to inherit. Otherwise it is the Thai probate route