Executing a Last Will and Testament without a lawyer

[stud858]

Hi Thai-visa-ians

 

My aim : To have a Last Will and Testament executed in Thailand leaving all my stuff to my Thai partner  (executor)  without any problems at a reasonable cost  without having to trust a lawyer.
Basically, I trust no one, but my mother :)

My progress : I have written my own will using the usual template with two  witnesses ( one Thai and one Falang, not related) with copies of ID's signed.
The Will is in English and I will most likely get it translated (official government office) ahead of my death.  I  will make a  video of me reading out the Will too.
Also,
I have visited the Amphur to submit  my will but  was told by the staff there that they have stopped accepting from Falangs and accept from Thai people only.
Their reason was - after the change of government,  things had changed.  I asked them about a good lawyer to help and they gave a number of one.
I  visited the lawyer and was not so happy with his service.  In short -  the lawyer  wanted 10% of my assets to aid in executing the will plus other expensive fees.
And,
I sent emails to my bank asking  what they require from my partner to take over my accounts when I die.  The bank replied with the usual as you'd expect -  with the main key point being a court ordered letter.
This letter in Australia is called a letter of representation that citizens can obtain at a probate office by themselves without the need of a lawyer.  In fact, there is an Australian official government  website that lays out the procedure very clearly helping it's citizens.  My bank and other banks have ignored and/or can't answer my questions of how to obtain this letter, where to go to get it, and if a lawyer is needed.
I have just recently sent an email to the official judicial court  website asking some crucial questions, but they have yet to send a reply.

My questions to you all-
1. Is a registered lawyer the only person allowed to apply at the court for this letter of representation?  If so, I feel bad about my partner having to trust a lawyer.
Are there any experiences from executors that can outline their lawyer performance in Thailand?
As of  yet I have not found official evidence that it cannot be done without a lawyer, so if anyone wants to contribute please put some confirmable facts behind what  you have to say.

2. If it is possible to get it sorted without the need of a lawyer then what is the procedure?

Please, if you could all stick to the discussion of the  "execution" side of the Will rather than specifics of "creating" a Will.

Kind regards to you all.

D.
 

[keeniau96]

After having several will in my life written by capable lawyers I came to pretty much the same conclusion as the OP. Above all keep it simple, the more clauses the more causes it will be for problems. My one-page will was sealed and stamped by the US Embassy as best form of notary.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Quote

 

I have visited the Amphur to submit  my will but  was told by the staff there that they have stopped accepting from Falangs and accept from Thai people only.

 

 

I can't speak to the executor letter the OP is asking about.

 

But regarding the amphur will, I've had a somewhat similar experience. Originally, I went with my wife to visit the khet (amkphur) office for where we live in Bangkok. Several years ago, they said I could do an amphur will with them.

 

But then when we checked back a year or so ago, the staff there and the wills officer had changed, and the new guy was claiming I could not do a will with the khet in BKK unless I was listed on my wife's tabien ban (which I am not, because we rent in BKK and my wife's tabien ban is for her parent's property upcountry where I've never stayed).

 

So, it wouldn't surprise me if the local amphurs have become even more unfriendly toward farang wills lately with the latest change of governments. Although, like so many things here, the policy that one amphur office enforces may or may not be similarly enforced by other amphurs. So it would pay to check around.  AFAIK, you're supposed to be able to do a will at any amphur office, not just the one where you happen to be living.

 

Be interested to hear from others if they have had any similar experiences lately will amphur offices flatly telling them they won't do wills for farangs anymore.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Makes me wonder if having a Yellow Tambien Ban in your name would make a difference.  At least you are then registered at an address.

 

Mac

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Don't have a yellow book, and am not registered in my wife's book, so can't speak to that...

[Speedo1968]

Not exactly directly related to making a Will ( which I have already done ) but do not forget to make your funeral requests known.

I made an open Funeral Request so that people concerned already know in advance of my wishes.

 

My sealed Will is with both my children in the UK and a copy here.    The Will is brief and to the point.

I have registered my NOK with the British Consul in Bangkok and the reference number is with my children.

I did not use a lawyer.

I like the posting by "keeniau96" with his Embassy as notary.

 

I looked at making a POA application but it is so long winded and complicated that keeping to a simple Will is, in my opinion, the best.

[JimGant]

Quote

My one-page will was sealed and stamped by the US Embassy as best form of notary.

 

An embassy stamp across the sealed envelope? Any words or signatures with that?

 

I suppose that would give the necessary credence to the recipient that this is, indeed, a legitimate Will of the deceased. And we've seen on one or several of the Will threads here that a few (but not many) bank managers will accept a "notarized" Will in lieu of probation -- notarized in the sense that large law firms are granted a Thai-equivalent version of notarization authority. What the same bank manager(s) would think about your embassy-stamped Will might be interesting (but not predictable) to find out......

 

Then what? Once the seal is broken in front of the bank manager, how are you next going to use that (now unsealed) Will at the Land Office?

 

No, after all the data in the Will threads, several things seem apparent: Although probate is not a legal requirement, most agencies you'll be dealing with (banks, land offices, etc) seem to require that a Will be probated before they'll release assets.  As such, be prepared to do probate. And do you want to do that alone? Not likely. So, guess you need to have a lawyer lined up to hold your Executor's hand in probate court. So, yeah, go ahead and write you own Will -- but maybe have your future probate lawyer lined up to be one of the witnesses to that Will. And be sure your Executor knows he's to contact this lawyer soonest upon your demise.

 

Anyway, we still seem to have a dearth of reports from folks who have actually functioned as Executors in the above situation. Maybe as the forum members age.......

 

Also, remember another uncertain area: joint accounts. Unlike in the West, in Thailand having such an account doesn't necessarily mean the account is not subject to probate. Indeed, several reports on this forum have shown that some bank managers, upon learning of the death of a joint owner, will freeze joint accounts until after probate. Lesson: Have the joint owner clean it out before notice of your death (and if that joint owner is the named beneficiary in the Will, what possible legal ramifications could there be.............?)

 

Oh, yeah -- Amphur Wills. For those who have successfully filed such -- will they be honored by the banks and land offices up front? Or will these also be subject to probate? The Thai lawyer mafia certainly hopes so -- as such simple, but effective and efficient Wills, cut into their revenue stream. Again, we have lack of info on what happens when an Executor presents an Amphur Will to a bank manager (and, again, once that Amphur seal is broken, will the Land Office also honor such a Will?) Sounds to me like another probate -- and lawyer involved -- situation.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by JimGant
typo

[stud858]

Just want to reiterate that this topic should be used for discussing the executing of a will without a lawyer and the requirements to do so only.  The main discussion point here is how to get the court ordered letter by visiting the courts. (Please read my first post) I have still yet to hear a reply back from the court justice website.  I'll get a Thai person to phone them and let you all know what I found out.

 

In response to some replies thus far,

 

With the court ordered letter, all parties involved will treat the executor as the deceased.  Without this letter, in my opinion, you have no chance of withdrawing funds or land title transfers happening.  A Will needs to be approved by the courts.  No other way possible, I would have thought.

 

Probate is not brain surgery.  It's attending an office, paying money, supplying appropriate documents, and receiving a letter of representation.  Which office? What documents? That's what I'd like to know.

 

Other topics such as how to draw up a Will and where to deposit the Will can be left to other forums.  

 

Have a nice day everyone.

 

[NancyL]

If your only assets are bank accounts in Thailand, only in your name, and some household items, then it shouldn't be any problem for your executor to act without probating your Final Will.  In fact, I've acted as executor here in Thailand in exactly these situations with few problems.

 

If this is indeed the OP's situation -- simple ownership of Thai bank accounts and personal property, then I fail to see why a lawyer wants  "10% of my assets to aid in executing the will plus other expensive fees. "  Here in Chiang Mai, a simple Final Will costs about 5000 baht and is produced in both Thai and English.   There is no charge at the time the Final Will is produced for execution -- that is up to the discretion of the Executor.  That person may chose to do it themselves or possibly hire a lawyer and pay for it from the assets of the estate.

 

As I said, I've executed some simple Final Wills and have first-hand knowledge assisting other Executors.  If the only assets are Thai bank accounts and some household/personal items, then there is absolutely no need to have a lawyer assist in settling the estate.  That is if the Executor and the Deceased are both known to the bank and the wishes of the Deceased are understood by a bank officer ahead of death.  

 

So, in the case of the OP, he should make sure that his local bank officer understands his wishes, by introducing his partner and explaining his wishes.  It's really best if it's a husband/wife or mother/son type of relationship, but I've seen banks here accept a partner relationship just fine if the local staff is used to seeing the partners come in together to conduct business.  Also, if there are other family members who maybe logically "should" be heirs like children, but aren't, then it would be a big help to the surviving partner, if those family members are specifically disinherited.  I've run into trouble with this here, when older expats don't leave money to their adult children overseas.  In Thailand, it would be unthinkable to "forget" about your children, in favor of someone you weren't even married to.  Thus, it's been necessary to get signed statements from the adult offspring overseas that they were OK with Daddy's "girlfriend" getting his bank account instead of them.  Yup, even though that's what he wanted in his Final Will.  But, that'a what was necessary to avoid the costs of probate.

 

If there are vehicles or other property like a condo, then it will be necessary to probate the Final Will, according to what I've been told.  I've just been involved in simple situations where the only assets where banks accounts and personal property and no probate or courts have been involved after death if there was a Final Will.

[JimGant]

Quote

 Here in Chiang Mai, a simple Final Will costs about 5000 baht ....As I said, I've executed some simple Final Wills and have first-hand knowledge assisting other Executors.

 

Nancy, have all the Wills you've dealt with been the 5000 baht lawyer versions? I recall one guy in another thread commenting that his bank manager would accept a lawyer-produced Will because most law firms have notary-like authority. Maybe such is the norm.......

But the OP's Will was self-produced. And although perfectly legal, as his templated model has two witnesses, I wonder if his bank manager would accept such? I'm even more curious about the acceptance of a hand written Will, which in one's own hand is perfectly legal (and add a couple of witnesses for good measure, 'tho not required).

Any experience with such Wills vis-a-vis bank managers?

[swissie]

2 hours ago, NancyL said:

If your only assets are bank accounts in Thailand, only in your name, and some household items, then it shouldn't be any problem for your executor to act without probating your Final Will.  In fact, I've acted as executor here in Thailand in exactly these situations with few problems.

 

If this is indeed the OP's situation -- simple ownership of Thai bank accounts and personal property, then I fail to see why a lawyer wants  "10% of my assets to aid in executing the will plus other expensive fees. "  Here in Chiang Mai, a simple Final Will costs about 5000 baht and is produced in both Thai and English.   There is no charge at the time the Final Will is produced for execution -- that is up to the discretion of the Executor.  That person may chose to do it themselves or possibly hire a lawyer and pay for it from the assets of the estate.

 

As I said, I've executed some simple Final Wills and have first-hand knowledge assisting other Executors.  If the only assets are Thai bank accounts and some household/personal items, then there is absolutely no need to have a lawyer assist in settling the estate.  That is if the Executor and the Deceased are both known to the bank and the wishes of the Deceased are understood by a bank officer ahead of death.  

 

So, in the case of the OP, he should make sure that his local bank officer understands his wishes, by introducing his partner and explaining his wishes.  It's really best if it's a husband/wife or mother/son type of relationship, but I've seen banks here accept a partner relationship just fine if the local staff is used to seeing the partners come in together to conduct business.  Also, if there are other family members who maybe logically "should" be heirs like children, but aren't, then it would be a big help to the surviving partner, if those family members are specifically disinherited.  I've run into trouble with this here, when older expats don't leave money to their adult children overseas.  In Thailand, it would be unthinkable to "forget" about your children, in favor of someone you weren't even married to.  Thus, it's been necessary to get signed statements from the adult offspring overseas that they were OK with Daddy's "girlfriend" getting his bank account instead of them.  Yup, even though that's what he wanted in his Final Will.  But, that'a what was necessary to avoid the costs of probate.

 

If there are vehicles or other property like a condo, then it will be necessary to probate the Final Will, according to what I've been told.  I've just been involved in simple situations where the only assets where banks accounts and personal property and no probate or courts have been involved after death if there was a Final Will.

As usual, a very competent comment by NancyL. Appreciated by many.

But I would like to remind everyone: The "Laws of the Land", originating from BKK and regardless of who is is in power are considered as "mere Recommendations" by local Chieftains.

Nothing has changed since May 2014.

  This ranges from the individual "Immigration Office Procedures " all the way to regular "run of the mill" Amphoe procedures.
What may be legally "conform" in one Amphoe, may be legally "impossible" in an other Amphoe. (See above: Local Chieftains !)

I said it before and I will say it again: "LEGAL CERTAINTY", is something that does not exist in Thailand, especially concerning "Farang Matters", Including "Will" procedures. Like it or not.

In case there are legitimate heirs back in Europe/US, the ensuing court battles are likely to consume the remaining assets of the deceased.
Cheers.

 

[catman20]

this all sounds like a nightmare i want to leave all my assets here in Thailand to a charity in the uk not sure how that will pan out when ive gone should i leave a copy of my Thai will with the uk embassy ? thx

[NancyL]

Embassies don't want to hold copies of Final Wills.  If you want your assets in Thailand to go to a specific charity, then you appoint an Executor and list that charity as a Beneficiary.  It is the responsibility of the Executor to get the proceeds from your Estate to the listed Beneficiaries.

 

 

[al007]

Thailand as we are all aware can be a legal challenge

 

I am 71 a UK passport holder not in good health, my wife is 30 yrs younger, I have two children around the same age as my wife, who gets everything, my children were provided for many years ago, I am wealthy by Thai standards, but if I lived in the UK it would be just above the survival level

 

I have a thai will witnessed by a lawyer here, but have also been advised by same lawyer here; it could be challenged

 

At one stage I went with joint accounts but then ascertained these would be frozen on death both here in thailand, and a brokers account outside the UK, I also have a QRORS Pension fund(Trust account)

 

Over the last year I have opened an offshore brokers account in the sole name of my wife, over which I have a power of attorney to do anything including emptying it, I operate this at present, but on my death it is safely in her name

 

I have ensured my wife has a will just in case she got killed in a motor accident or similar

 

I have a monthly and daily cash account at the same bank as she has and we both have internet accounts and passwords on her account and my account are the same, so she would transfer anything left in my to her account

Generally if and when I bring pension to thailand I bring it to her account then take out to my account what I want

 

This way probably no probate needed here or in the UK ( Ihave only small bank balance in UK)

 

I have been married 3 times before and taken to the cleaners by no 3 but I trust this wife, but still have safeguards in place

 

She looks after me so well it is my duty to see life is made easy for her, and safe and clear of bureaucracy, both in the UK and Thailand when I die

 

 

[akentryan]

Don't know where you are but in Pattaya legal counsel is cheap and competent at Magna Carta. A word of caution if you have a house or a car in your Thai partner's name. She needs a will also naming you as Executor and inheritor. A real nightmare if she dies first as I just went through it myself.

[stud858]

Original poster here again,

Thanks everyone for your input.

Let me take note about two items from above that others have written,

 

1. Banks will possibly allow withdrawal by executor without probate.  I find this scary and unsafe if true.  Furthermore, Krungsri bank replied in their email that probate is required.  I will visit my branch and confirm this with them and ask if it's possible to withdraw funds by presenting a Will only and having executor introduced to bank manager.

 

2. Legal consistency cannot be relied upon and it depends on who you deal with and on what day.  I agree.

I simply try and be polite and follow the written laws.

 

More to come from me, keep checking back.

D

[makropo]

Stud858, the OP, wrote that he/she is "leaving all my stuff to my Thai partner". If you fully trust your partner not to take advantage of you in any way, you could avoid all the legal issues and expenses by transferring ownership of your stuff to him/her before you pass away, just keeping some cash for your own needs perhaps.

 

And as akentryan wrote, your partner would then need to write his/her own will with you as the beneficiary in case he/she dies first. For a Thai citizen writing a will would be more straightforward.

[Liquorice]

In relation to financial assets held in a Thai Bank.

 

I made some enquiries recently at my Bangkok Bank of procedures to release funds to my partner in the event of my death, and was given the following information;

1. If a Will was in place (naming my partner as beneficiary) it would be a very simple procedure for my partner to obtain a Court Order (without lawyer) to release the funds.

It is normal practice that the bank requires a Court Order in these circumstances, not just the production of a Will and Death Certificate

2. Any bank account can be set up with conditions of who has access. In other words you can have an account in your sole name (for Immigration purposes) but allows another access to the account.

3. Simply let your partner know the PIN number of your debit card.

 

The Bank tells me that Thais usually do not inform the bank of a death until after the account has been cleared out.

If a death is made known to the bank, then they do require a Court Order.

[sendintheclowns]

22 hours ago, stud858 said:

Just want to reiterate that this topic should be used for discussing the executing of a will without a lawyer and the requirements to do so only.  The main discussion point here is how to get the court ordered letter by visiting the courts. (Please read my first post) I have still yet to hear a reply back from the court justice website.  I'll get a Thai person to phone them and let you all know what I found out.

 

In response to some replies thus far,

 

With the court ordered letter, all parties involved will treat the executor as the deceased.  Without this letter, in my opinion, you have no chance of withdrawing funds or land title transfers happening.  A Will needs to be approved by the courts.  No other way possible, I would have thought.

 

Probate is not brain surgery.  It's attending an office, paying money, supplying appropriate documents, and receiving a letter of representation.  Which office? What documents? That's what I'd like to know.

 

Other topics such as how to draw up a Will and where to deposit the Will can be left to other forums.  

 

Have a nice day everyone.

 

The OP needs greater clarity, (with respect) about his own situation.

Could you explain further, your remark 'probate is not brain surgery' ?

I think that each family, having a different set of circumstances, will have different needs for the process of executing the will.

If your wife is Thai - will she be capable/educated,/sophisticated enough to make  the right decisions? Does  your will deal with  the situation where your wife predeceases you? What about the situation where you both die at the same time; or even more complex, where one of you survives the otehr for, say 30 days.? You may not do need a lawyer. But we, despite being a farang couple and being retired professionals (Doctor and CA) , decided that we did need one. Simply, we found a trustworthy partnership, where we were able to engage 2 young lawyers, who are extremely unlikely to predecease us. (another consideration).

Posters are mentioning land transfers - whcih is completely off topic, unless you have land. which would be interesting to hear further details about. Anyway, don't mean to rain on your parade. The OP is a worthwhile addition to the Forum. Best of luck with resolving your situation. a humourous aside _ I asked my bank , what should my wife do, if I died first. The manager said, have her come by and withdraw it all, and out it into her own bank account, before we hear you are dead. :)

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by sendintheclowns
hitting the send key too quickly

[manhood]

I did my last will with a lawyer here in Pattaya . He's a friend of mine, (very reliable, studied in the USA but is a registrated lawyer now in Thailand).

If ur interested i can give you his phone number or contact possibility by email!

 

I would not trust any body then him!

[elgordo38]

13 hours ago, NancyL said:

If your only assets are bank accounts in Thailand, only in your name, and some household items, then it shouldn't be any problem for your executor to act without probating your Final Will.  In fact, I've acted as executor here in Thailand in exactly these situations with few problems.

 

If this is indeed the OP's situation -- simple ownership of Thai bank accounts and personal property, then I fail to see why a lawyer wants  "10% of my assets to aid in executing the will plus other expensive fees. "  Here in Chiang Mai, a simple Final Will costs about 5000 baht and is produced in both Thai and English.   There is no charge at the time the Final Will is produced for execution -- that is up to the discretion of the Executor.  That person may chose to do it themselves or possibly hire a lawyer and pay for it from the assets of the estate.

 

As I said, I've executed some simple Final Wills and have first-hand knowledge assisting other Executors.  If the only assets are Thai bank accounts and some household/personal items, then there is absolutely no need to have a lawyer assist in settling the estate.  That is if the Executor and the Deceased are both known to the bank and the wishes of the Deceased are understood by a bank officer ahead of death.  

 

So, in the case of the OP, he should make sure that his local bank officer understands his wishes, by introducing his partner and explaining his wishes.  It's really best if it's a husband/wife or mother/son type of relationship, but I've seen banks here accept a partner relationship just fine if the local staff is used to seeing the partners come in together to conduct business.  Also, if there are other family members who maybe logically "should" be heirs like children, but aren't, then it would be a big help to the surviving partner, if those family members are specifically disinherited.  I've run into trouble with this here, when older expats don't leave money to their adult children overseas.  In Thailand, it would be unthinkable to "forget" about your children, in favor of someone you weren't even married to.  Thus, it's been necessary to get signed statements from the adult offspring overseas that they were OK with Daddy's "girlfriend" getting his bank account instead of them.  Yup, even though that's what he wanted in his Final Will.  But, that'a what was necessary to avoid the costs of probate.

 

If there are vehicles or other property like a condo, then it will be necessary to probate the Final Will, according to what I've been told.  I've just been involved in simple situations where the only assets where banks accounts and personal property and no probate or courts have been involved after death if there was a Final Will.

Yes the 5,000 baht will is about right. I think we are talking about the same lawyer. When I questioned the lawyer on probate fees for a simple will cash in the bank and household items she quote me "about 50,000 bahts" which I thought was a bit heavy. I would think half would suffice. 

[CMBob]

1 hour ago, elgordo38 said:

Yes the 5,000 baht will is about right. I think we are talking about the same lawyer. When I questioned the lawyer on probate fees for a simple will cash in the bank and household items she quote me "about 50,000 bahts" which I thought was a bit heavy. I would think half would suffice. 

Same for me except mine cost 7,000 baht a few years back here in Chiangmai.  Done by a very competent and reasonable lawyer (I was impressed and I used to handle probate proceedings back in the States) and I have no complaints at all about the price or the service.  The lawyer also advised that the usual probate process here through her office costs "about 50,000 baht."

 

As an aside, as soon as the decedent's bank finds out somebody is deceased, the deceased's accounts are usually locked up tight until the bank gets the executor appointment order from the probate court here (but not always as alluded to by Nancy) .  So:

(1)  One might consider having enough cash on hand (locked in a safe or wherever) to last the spouse/partner 5-6 months until the probate process is usually completed.

(2)  Alternatively or additionally, one might consider telling your spouse/partner to absolutely not tell your bank about your death and to use your ATM card (obviously you'd have to leave your number accessible in some fashion) and to drain the account (or at least take out 6 months worth) before telling the bank anything.  This is what I've done and, regardless if the withdrawal might be technically illegal, I would not expect any significant problem because the withdrawing person is my sole beneficiary under my Will.    

[NancyL]

I don't like the idea of telling your heir to not tell the bank about your death and drain your bank account.  Even if they are named as the heir in the Final Will, this is going to create bad feelings with the bank officers when it's discovered.  Also, the death of foreigners is notices and talked about.  There is no patient/client privacy among the Thai staff at hospitals, nursing homes, police stations and even the Consulates, I suspect.  Word of your death is going to travel to personnel at your bank more quickly than you think.

 

Then your accounts will be frozen and if the officers see that there has been activity after the time of death, they will probably insist on Probate, even if their norm is to accept a Final Will without probate for a very "clean" situation.  

 

As for the OP's concern that it's "scary and unsafe" that a bank would accept a Final Will without Probate, I should point out that Bangkok Bank requires a "guaranteer" to sign off on the action.  That has to be a person of good standing, known to the bank, who knew both the deceased and the Heir(s) and knew the wishes of the deceased, who has funds on deposit at the bank well in excess of the amount in question.  If the actions of bank are challenged and it's found the bank shouldn't have acted without Probate, then it's the guaranteer who is on the line for the amount the bank has given to the Heir.  I've been the guaranteer in several situations for Bangkok Bank customers where someone lost their spouse and was claiming funds in a joint account and/or a retirement visa account.  So far, no repercussions.

[elgordo38]

Nancy I am intrigued by your comments on bank managers. I have found them to be not as accommodative as you outline especially at my Bangkok bank branch. I have tried to contact the manager there (and they seem to change from time to time) about this process and they seem to indicate that they want nothing to do with it and their advice was to contact a lawyer. 

[Liquorice]

25 minutes ago, NancyL said:

I don't like the idea of telling your heir to not tell the bank about your death and drain your bank account.  Even if they are named as the heir in the Final Will, this is going to create bad feelings with the bank officers when it's discovered.  Also, the death of foreigners is notices and talked about.  There is no patient/client privacy among the Thai staff at hospitals, nursing homes, police stations and even the Consulates, I suspect.  Word of your death is going to travel to personnel at your bank more quickly than you think.

 

Then your accounts will be frozen and if the officers see that there has been activity after the time of death, they will probably insist on Probate, even if their norm is to accept a Final Will without probate for a very "clean" situation.  

.

 

However, as Bangkok Bank advised me, Thais usually do not inform the bank of a death until the funds have been withdrawn.

It doesn't cause any bad feelings with bank staff, it's accepted as the norm.

Many Thais do not make Wills, due to costs.

 

They also advised in the event I made a Will, they still wouldn't release funds on production of a Will and Death Certificate, they would request a Court Order, which they tell me would be quite straightforward and not time consuming. But to avoid costs and delays, I should consider doing it the 'Thai' way.

 

Only yesterday I attended the cremation of my g/f's cousin, who died 3 days previously.

She made no Will, her son and daughter being legal heirs by law.

At the cremation an Insurance companies representatives had photos taken presenting a cheque for 500,000 baht to her son and daughter.

If their were any doubts about the legality of her rightful heirs, I doubt they would have been handing a cheque over for such an amount.

 

 

[sendintheclowns]

just to reiterate - a lot of good experiences posted here. I realise that I am never too old to learn something new - and to bite my tongue when i read of the degree to which some people trust their Thai wives, gf's . Ok hit me

[Grubster]

On October 17, 2016 at 2:08 AM, JimGant said:

 

An embassy stamp across the sealed envelope? Any words or signatures with that?

 

I suppose that would give the necessary credence to the recipient that this is, indeed, a legitimate Will of the deceased. And we've seen on one or several of the Will threads here that a few (but not many) bank managers will accept a "notarized" Will in lieu of probation -- notarized in the sense that large law firms are granted a Thai-equivalent version of notarization authority. What the same bank manager(s) would think about your embassy-stamped Will might be interesting (but not predictable) to find out......

 

Then what? Once the seal is broken in front of the bank manager, how are you next going to use that (now unsealed) Will at the Land Office?

 

No, after all the data in the Will threads, several things seem apparent: Although probate is not a legal requirement, most agencies you'll be dealing with (banks, land offices, etc) seem to require that a Will be probated before they'll release assets.  As such, be prepared to do probate. And do you want to do that alone? Not likely. So, guess you need to have a lawyer lined up to hold your Executor's hand in probate court. So, yeah, go ahead and write you own Will -- but maybe have your future probate lawyer lined up to be one of the witnesses to that Will. And be sure your Executor knows he's to contact this lawyer soonest upon your demise.

 

Anyway, we still seem to have a dearth of reports from folks who have actually functioned as Executors in the above situation. Maybe as the forum members age.......

 

Also, remember another uncertain area: joint accounts. Unlike in the West, in Thailand having such an account doesn't necessarily mean the account is not subject to probate. Indeed, several reports on this forum have shown that some bank managers, upon learning of the death of a joint owner, will freeze joint accounts until after probate. Lesson: Have the joint owner clean it out before notice of your death (and if that joint owner is the named beneficiary in the Will, what possible legal ramifications could there be.............?)

 

Oh, yeah -- Amphur Wills. For those who have successfully filed such -- will they be honored by the banks and land offices up front? Or will these also be subject to probate? The Thai lawyer mafia certainly hopes so -- as such simple, but effective and efficient Wills, cut into their revenue stream. Again, we have lack of info on what happens when an Executor presents an Amphur Will to a bank manager (and, again, once that Amphur seal is broken, will the Land Office also honor such a Will?) Sounds to me like another probate -- and lawyer involved -- situation.

 

 

That would be the official US seal put on the document and then pressed with the raised seal. No envelope involved. Signed by the officer who did it. Sounds rock solid to me.

[JimGant]

Quote

That would be the official US seal put on the document and then pressed with the raised seal. No envelope involved. Signed by the officer who did it. Sounds rock solid to me.

 

Rock solid in maybe allowing your executor to have your Will accepted by the probate judge. Your bank manager, however, may have a different take on "rock solid."

[NancyL]

7 hours ago, Faz said:

 

However, as Bangkok Bank advised me, Thais usually do not inform the bank of a death until the funds have been withdrawn.

It doesn't cause any bad feelings with bank staff, it's accepted as the norm.

Many Thais do not make Wills, due to costs.

 

They also advised in the event I made a Will, they still wouldn't release funds on production of a Will and Death Certificate, they would request a Court Order, which they tell me would be quite straightforward and not time consuming. But to avoid costs and delays, I should consider doing it the 'Thai' way.

 

Only yesterday I attended the cremation of my g/f's cousin, who died 3 days previously.

She made no Will, her son and daughter being legal heirs by law.

At the cremation an Insurance companies representatives had photos taken presenting a cheque for 500,000 baht to her son and daughter.

If their were any doubts about the legality of her rightful heirs, I doubt they would have been handing a cheque over for such an amount.

 

 

 

The son & daughter were probably named as beneficiaries of the life insurance policy.  Doesn't have anything to do with whether the g/f's cousin had a Final Will and if that Will had been probated.  

[NancyL]

7 hours ago, elgordo38 said:

Nancy I am intrigued by your comments on bank managers. I have found them to be not as accommodative as you outline especially at my Bangkok bank branch. I have tried to contact the manager there (and they seem to change from time to time) about this process and they seem to indicate that they want nothing to do with it and their advice was to contact a lawyer. 

 

They are absolutely right -- you should contact a lawyer and have a Final Will to be sure your Thai partner receives your bank accounts per your wishes.   

 

I'm not certain what you were trying to discuss with the Bangkok Bank manager(s), but note I'm not talking about how to get around the need to have a proper Final Will.  All I'm saying is that sometimes it may not be necessary for that Final Will to be probated in order for your Executor to claim your bank accounts.  

 

However, if your personal situation is "messy", i.e. former spouses, adult children from previous relationships, a Final Will from overseas,  handwritten Will, or none at all, big gap in age, income and educational level between you and your partner, you and your partner not together for very long, you had dementia, etc, etc, then the bank is going to protect themselves by requiring probate, ie. not going out on a limb and taking the risk by turning funds over to your Executor without a court order.  

 

Also, I have found that bank managers and actually many other officials in Thailand don't like to talk about what can be done in theoretical terms.  As you know, my knowledge comes from helping people in need and working on solving actual problems.  There, I find the bank officials can be more accommodating and flexible when faced with a "real case" rather than talking about some hypothetical event in the future.  

 

If I'm helping a grieving widow who's trying to access her husband's 800,000 baht retirement visa account to pay his hospital bill so they'll release his body for the funeral and so she can make arrangements for her own visa now that she can no longer be carried as a dependent on her husband's expired retirement visa, then the Bangkok Bank officials will work very hard to get those funds released quickly.  But, if her husband had asked about the process before his death, he probably would have been met with the same cold shoulder you receive.