May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Orac]

IMMHO. 
 
l was for Brexit although l reside in Thailand which is a bit hypocritical l know  because l wanted England to be free of a bunch of foreigners that we had fought against throughout history and be a independent England again making it's own decisions on who to trade with throughout the whole world like we use to not just within a silly club.
 
To be honest l'm not in anyway a finance world expert but seeing what was happening with Greece, Italy, Spain & Portugal and our massive debt what good has EU done.
 
The benefit is freedom.
 

Are you advocating the break up of the UK as well?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Before commenting -- read  Yanis Yarofakis's -  (former greek finance minister) book. He recounts how in the midst of the crisis the Greek Finance Minister cut a deal with the Chinese,  led and initiated by the Chinese Ambassador under instructions from Beijing - the deal was that the Chinese would buy 2 Billion Euros of Bonds from Greece because the Chinese had just bought the main Greek port and were keen to keep the economy going -- but a couple of days later the Ambassador came back and profusely apologised and said that a “call” had been received from Germany and the deal was off.   What more proof is needed to show that Germany  runs the EU *and* the euro.

 

But that requires an intelligent, educated and  interested electorate, currently not available in UK after generations of repressed education, divisive politics and a simplistic, ineffective FPTP voting system dumbed down for the benefit of the same masses who then suffer the consequences without ever realising that they can do better. 

 

It became obvious a long time ago (certainly to the Greeks at least) that Germany stitched Greece up like a kipper. And imo Germany takes/will take every opportunity to do something similar to each EU country one-by-one, in order to get control of Europe through economics. This is the one reason above all others that we need to get out of the EU whilst we still can.

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

It became obvious a long time ago (certainly to the Greeks at least) that Germany stitched Greece up like a kipper. And imo Germany takes/will take every opportunity to do something similar to each EU country one-by-one, in order to get control of Europe through economics. This is the one reason above all others that we need to get out of the EU whilst we still can.

Here here! 

[Kwasaki]

12 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Are you advocating the break up of the UK as well?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Of course England can do without Scotland & Nth. Ireland,  the Welsh don't like anyone.  

[jpinx]

24 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

It became obvious a long time ago (certainly to the Greeks at least) that Germany stitched Greece up like a kipper. And imo Germany takes/will take every opportunity to do something similar to each EU country one-by-one, in order to get control of Europe through economics. This is the one reason above all others that we need to get out of the EU whilst we still can.

It has to be said that Greece was a lot less than honest when they applied for membership of the EU in the first place.  Seriously fudged numbers were bandied around and the Germans didn't pick up on the scam.  Maybe this is payback time :)

[sandyf]

34 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

It became obvious a long time ago (certainly to the Greeks at least) that Germany stitched Greece up like a kipper. And imo Germany takes/will take every opportunity to do something similar to each EU country one-by-one, in order to get control of Europe through economics. This is the one reason above all others that we need to get out of the EU whilst we still can.

The Greeks stitched themselves up, end of story.

 

ATHENS, Sept. 22 - Greece confessed Wednesday to having repeatedly misrepresented significant economic data before it joined the European currency union, prompting suggestions that it might not have qualified had the true figures been known.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/world/europe/greece-admits-faking-data-to-join-europe.html

[nauseus]

50 minutes ago, sandyf said:

 

50 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The Greeks stitched themselves up, end of story.

 

ATHENS, Sept. 22 - Greece confessed Wednesday to having repeatedly misrepresented significant economic data before it joined the European currency union, prompting suggestions that it might not have qualified had the true figures been known.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/world/europe/greece-admits-faking-data-to-join-europe.html

The Greeks did some creative accounting initially but Germany and the EU wanted them in anyway and I would be very surprised if they were not aware of the true state of the Greek economy at that time. The 3% / GDP rule is just one of many that the EU has but ignores when it suits them.

 

The main issue here is that the Euro has completely crippled Greece, which is now being punished by the EU (particularly Germany). The Euro was not conceived and designed with the economic diversity of the later member (southern and eastern) states in mind. This problem has not gone away and the ECB continues pulling 80 billion a month out of the magic top hat, while being petrified to try to normalize interest rates!  

Edited June 28, 2017 by nauseus

[ilostmypassword]

54 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The Greeks stitched themselves up, end of story.

 

ATHENS, Sept. 22 - Greece confessed Wednesday to having repeatedly misrepresented significant economic data before it joined the European currency union, prompting suggestions that it might not have qualified had the true figures been known.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/world/europe/greece-admits-faking-data-to-join-europe.html

There is something called due diligence. You should look it up.

[Grouse]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-divided-society-social-mobility-commission-alan-milburn-a7811386.html

 

This is way more important that Brexit. Read It and weep.

 

It explains a great deal, including my embarrassment of most things British at the moment

 

Please do read

[jpinx]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-divided-society-social-mobility-commission-alan-milburn-a7811386.html

 

This is way more important that Brexit. Read It and weep.

 

It explains a great deal, including my embarrassment of most things British at the moment

 

Please do read

It's all bullshit -- the term is five years and they only plan that far ahead to make sure they have best shot at retaining power.  It's got nothing to do with "social inequalities" - the electorate is cannon-fodder for a broken voting system that has proven many times how it divides the nation.

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, jpinx said:

It's all bullshit -- the term is five years and they only plan that far ahead to make sure they have best shot at retaining power.  It's got nothing to do with "social inequalities" - the electorate is cannon-fodder for a broken voting system that has proven many times how it divides the nation.

So you doubt the conclusions? You doubt that we could do better? Do you doubt we are becoming an embarrassment?

 

The report looks about right to me and WE should be doing something about it. We should raise taxes and invest in infrastructure. Our education system is poor and the NHS is dropping away. ?

Edited June 28, 2017 by Grouse

[jpinx]

What's this "we", Paleface???      Gawd save us from wannabie politicians!!!!!!    Being British is no more embarrassing than being american at the moment - or for being Germany for having started too many wars - or for being Greek for being an EU scammer.   If someone is so embarrassed they can always leave and get some other EU pasport.    Meantime TVF is forever a happy platform of grumpy old farts postulating remedies for questions that even the finest minds of the UK's "bespoke" political system can not remedy, mainly because they don't see these problems as anything other than obstacles to their continuance in power.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

28 minutes ago, jpinx said:

What's this "we", Paleface???      Gawd save us from wannabie politicians!!!!!!    Being British is no more embarrassing than being american at the moment - or for being Germany for having started too many wars - or for being Greek for being an EU scammer.   If someone is so embarrassed they can always leave and get some other EU pasport.    Meantime TVF is forever a happy platform of grumpy old farts postulating remedies for questions that even the finest minds of the UK's "bespoke" political system can not remedy, mainly because they don't see these problems as anything other than obstacles to their continuance in power.

 

 

So are you saying that the NHS is an obstacle to power? Underfund the NHS is an obstacle to power? Adequately funding the NHS is an obstacle to power? Overfunding the NHS is an obstacle to power? How about the education system? What are the obstacles there?  For someone who sounds so dogmatic the substance of your remarks is remarkably little.

[SheungWan]

34 minutes ago, jpinx said:

What's this "we", Paleface???  

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

Probably your greatest ever contribution!

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

So are you saying that the NHS is an obstacle to power? Underfund the NHS is an obstacle to power? Adequately funding the NHS is an obstacle to power? Overfunding the NHS is an obstacle to power? How about the education system? What are the obstacles there?  For someone who sounds so dogmatic the substance of your remarks is remarkably little.

Yes! :)

 

If  politicians are the intellectual "cream of the crop" and can not solve the NHS/Education/whatever problems - what chance do we mere mortals have?  Oh - of course - they don't want to solve it - they just want to apply enough sticking plasters to keep themselves in power and win the next election.

 

I'm only dogmatic about one thing -- politics stinks and politicians are in it up to their oxters :)

 

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

What's this "we", Paleface???      Gawd save us from wannabie politicians!!!!!!    Being British is no more embarrassing than being american at the moment - or for being Germany for having started too many wars - or for being Greek for being an EU scammer.   If someone is so embarrassed they can always leave and get some other EU pasport.    Meantime TVF is forever a happy platform of grumpy old farts postulating remedies for questions that even the finest minds of the UK's "bespoke" political system can not remedy, mainly because they don't see these problems as anything other than obstacles to their continuance in power.

 

 

OK kemosabe, by We I meant we the people not the Royal We. OK?

 

Now, you maybe prepared to give up on the obvious  crapness of the UK just now, I'm not.

 

The Germans seem to have done jolly well with regards sorting out their past. The USA is beyond the "Pale" of course.

 

I agree that our electoral system is no longer fit for purpose. I WANT coalition governments; right now I feel disenfranchised.

 

I am genuinely embarrassed at the mess we have got ourselves into. I was chatting with a Parisian  family tonight and they are also flabbergasted at the way the UK is going

 

WE can do better than this!

Edited June 28, 2017 by Grouse

[jpinx]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

OK kemosabe, by We I meant we the people not the Royal We. OK?

 

Now, you maybe prepared to give up the crapness of the UK now, I'm not.

 

The Germans seem to have done jolly well with regards sorting out their past. The USA is beyond the "Pale" of course.

 

I agree that our electoral system is no longer fit for purpose. I WANT coalition governments; right now I feel disenfranchised.

 

I am genuinely embarrassed at the mess we have got ourselves into. I was chatting with a Parisian  family tonight and they are also flabbergasted at the way the UK is going

 

WE can do better than this!

Actually it was the crappiness of the weather that chased me away.  :) 

Coalitions, consensual politicis, proportional representation, whatever you like to cal it -- elections are meant to produce politicians who represent everyone, not only half.  Your parisian friends are excused - France is only now extracting itself from a political morass, but they have a different system to UK and it seems to be working for them.  The Germans have a very efficient system that might be a bit cold-hearted, but it's stops a lot of the nonsense that their own extremists would otherwise be able to stir up.  So it is easy to see how people feel like "giving up" on the UK, but that's not an option for most people --  they have to live the nightmare.   The UK *CAN* do better, but we need leaders working in a system that allows for "better" to succeed over "greedy".

 

I wonder how many people twigged the translation of the nicknames in The Lone Ranger.  Tonto the fool and Que-no-sabe "what little he knows"  :)

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, jpinx said:

.

 

I wonder how many people twigged the translation of the nicknames in The Lone Ranger.  Tonto the fool and Que-no-sabe "what little he knows"  :)

Nope.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/06/26/kemosabe_meaning_origin_and_history_of_tonto_s_word_in_lone_ranger.html

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Nope.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/06/26/kemosabe_meaning_origin_and_history_of_tonto_s_word_in_lone_ranger.html

You need to read what you link to.....

 

"....There is another theory that gives the word an entirely different meaning. Noting that tonto in Spanish means “stupid” or “crazy,” some people have pointed out that kemosabe sounds a lot like the Spanish phrase quien no sabe, “he who doesn’t understand.” (In Spanish-language versions of The Lone Ranger, Tonto is called Toro, Spanish for bull.) This suggests a whole different dynamic between the two characters. Is the Lone Ranger a racist who calls his partner an idiot? Is Tonto in turn being subversive when he addresses his white companion as an ignoramus?...."

[ilostmypassword]

19 minutes ago, jpinx said:

You need to read what you link to.....

 

"....There is another theory that gives the word an entirely different meaning. Noting that tonto in Spanish means “stupid” or “crazy,” some people have pointed out that kemosabe sounds a lot like the Spanish phrase quien no sabe, “he who doesn’t understand.” (In Spanish-language versions of The Lone Ranger, Tonto is called Toro, Spanish for bull.) This suggests a whole different dynamic between the two characters. Is the Lone Ranger a racist who calls his partner an idiot? Is Tonto in turn being subversive when he addresses his white companion as an ignoramus?...."

I did read and that notion was pretty much dismissed.

'As Chadwick Allen explains in “Hero with Two Faces: The Lone Ranger as Treaty Discourse,” this interpretation has mostly been pushed by American linguists who want to “locate Tonto ‘appropriately’ in the Pueblo southwest,” and there isn’t much evidence for it.'

On top of which "Quien no sabe" is not the same as "Que no sabe"

 

.

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I did read and that notion was pretty much dismissed.

'As Chadwick Allen explains in “Hero with Two Faces: The Lone Ranger as Treaty Discourse,” this interpretation has mostly been pushed by American linguists who want to “locate Tonto ‘appropriately’ in the Pueblo southwest,” and there isn’t much evidence for it.'

On top of which "Quien no sabe" is not the same as "Que no sabe"

 

.

This is all right on topic  -  keep it up ladies and gentlemen!

[jpinx]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

This is all right on topic  -  keep it up ladies and gentlemen!

It's a good example of the highly polarised thinking which exists in UK politics nowadays.  Whatever facts are presented they will be twisted to win an argument rather than to produce any concensus.  The UK has one of the worst electoral systems imaginable, but it is largely a product of the education system -- people are not taught to be inclusive, everything is combatative and confrontational.  Westminster houses battle-lines, not constructive debate.  They are more interested in "scoring points" OFF each other, than they are in winning points FOR themselves.  It makes them foolish and ineffectual, as has been proven many times when dealing with Brexit. 

[Scott]

A post containing a slur has been removed.  

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

There is something called due diligence. You should look it up.

You are perfectly free to believe that the financial audit of 2004 came to the wrong conclusion and that it made no contribution to the financial problems encountered by Greece.

 

As a result of the financial audit, Greece fell in the list of the loan creditability and paid more interest on its loans compared with other EU countries. EU Commission warned Greece about future problems if Greece, now with the new data, does not comply with the Eurozone requirements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Financial_Audit,_2004

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

OK kemosabe, by We I meant we the people not the Royal We. OK?

 

Now, you maybe prepared to give up on the obvious  crapness of the UK just now, I'm not.

 

The Germans seem to have done jolly well with regards sorting out their past. The USA is beyond the "Pale" of course.

 

I agree that our electoral system is no longer fit for purpose. I WANT coalition governments; right now I feel disenfranchised.

 

I am genuinely embarrassed at the mess we have got ourselves into. I was chatting with a Parisian  family tonight and they are also flabbergasted at the way the UK is going

 

WE can do better than this!

Last week I watched Question time and there was a consensus from the whole panel, although a bit reluctantly from the conservative, that many issues needed cross part participation.

Yesterday I watched PM's questions and it was fairly obvious the she is just not interested in anything anyone else has to say, its my way or the highway.  It really is time she was put on the highway or there is no chance of bridging that divide.

[sandyf]

With the EU budget coming under pressure it is a foregone conclusion that everything will be negotiated in the best interests of the EU, after all they have effectively lost the UK payments from March 2019.

A fairly obvious tactic would be to put negotiating pressure on the UK to remain in the single market, they would get some money out of it. That could also ease several issues faced by the UK government, all depends on how deep that line in the sand.

 

The UK's departure from the EU will leave a budget shortfall of at least €10bn (£8.8bn; $11.4bn), the budget commissioner has warned.

Günther Oettinger said the bloc must either spend less or find new money to fill the gap, equivalent to an estimated 16% of the entire budget.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40433450

[sandyf]

Another skirmish in the brexit battle.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/28/paid-leave-vote-funding-brexit-public-inquiry

[billd766]

14 hours ago, nauseus said:

Probably your greatest ever contribution!

 

I got some good spinoff commercials from that post.

 

Much more fun and laughter, and less boring than this topic has become.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Another skirmish in the brexit battle.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/28/paid-leave-vote-funding-brexit-public-inquiry

Dynamite.

 

Astonishing that this sort of thing goes on.