May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[aright]

19 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

When the electorate went to the polls to decide a new government, they voted on the basis of which one would be best to lead the country, all factors considered, they didn't elect a new government solely on the basis that the party would lead us out of the EU, but I think you already knew that!

 

17.4 million people voted for Brexit out of an total electorate of circa 46.5 million, you can call that a majority if you wish, I do not.

Its true they most probably did vote on that basis. What you omitted to say was they voted on the best one to lead the country out of the EU. What was a more important issue than that.

If 17 million had voted to remain and 16 million voted to leave would you be calling for another referendum? Traditionally majority and minority votes are declared as a % of the votes cast not the total electorate you allude to, so yes there was over a million more leave votes than stay which is a majority.

But if you want to use the electorate argument according to your figures 13million people didn't bother voting . I interpret that as 13 million people didn't care if we remained or left the EU. A majority of over a million in the referendum and 13 million people who didn't care if we were in our out is mandate enough for me.

[simoh1490]

Just now, aright said:

Its true they most probably did vote on that basis. What you omitted to say was they voted on the best one to lead the country out of the EU. What was a more important issue than that.

If 17 million had voted to remain and 16 million voted to leave would you be calling for another referendum? Traditionally majority and minority votes are declared as a % of the votes cast not the total electorate you allude to, so yes there was over a million more leave votes than stay which is a majority.

But if you want to use the electorate argument according to your figures 13million people didn't bother voting . I interpret that as 13 million people didn't care if we remained or left the EU. A majority of over a million in the referendum and 13 million people who didn't care if we were in our out is mandate enough for me.

I omitted nothing, the electorate voted for the best party to lead the country, end of, there's no "probably" involved, that was how they voted .

 

What was a more important issue than that: the economy, unemployment, education, health, and everything else that makes up the framework of UK life. You attempt to paint a picture that the electorate went into a general election with only a single thought on their minds, the EU.....they didn't, the EU issue at the time was just one of many issues.

 

The rest of it is "if" and "I interpret", hardly any fact or substance there.

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, aright said:

Its true they most probably did vote on that basis. What you omitted to say was they voted on the best one to lead the country out of the EU. What was a more important issue than that.

If 17 million had voted to remain and 16 million voted to leave would you be calling for another referendum? Traditionally majority and minority votes are declared as a % of the votes cast not the total electorate you allude to, so yes there was over a million more leave votes than stay which is a majority.

But if you want to use the electorate argument according to your figures 13million people didn't bother voting . I interpret that as 13 million people didn't care if we remained or left the EU. A majority of over a million in the referendum and 13 million people who didn't care if we were in our out is mandate enough for me.

If ever Brexit happens we will see how the 13 million think after a year or so, back in maybe minus the pound.

[simoh1490]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

If ever Brexit happens we will see how the 13 million think after a year or so, back in maybe minus the pound.

Not to sidetrack but there's a chance a deal can be reached, in which case the Pound will soar, for a while, it's certainly a punt worth hedging.

[aright]

6 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

 

What was a more important issue than that: the economy, unemployment, education, health, and everything else that makes up the framework of UK life. 

What are you talking about? Get real, all those issues are at the heart of Brexit .

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, simoh1490 said:

Not to sidetrack but there's a chance a deal can be reached, in which case the Pound will soar, for a while, it's certainly a punt worth hedging.

we shall see, the pound didn't soar before EU membership. The British civil service has many highly qualified people, unfortunately this quality isn't reflected in a majority of the politicians.

[simoh1490]

38 minutes ago, aright said:

The real delusion is to think the issues you quoted like worry about the effects of Brexit on the  economy, unemployment, and financing the NHS etc  did not have high agenda with the electorate. This thread has run for 773 pages of nothing but bleating on the part of Remainers  because of their worries, about all those issues you mentioned, post Brexit.

Stop being in denial and enjoy your Weeties 

Once again, Brexit and all it entailed was not a significant voting feature of the last general election which was won and lost on the basis of which government could best lead the country. Faced with a choice between Ed Milliband and Ed Balls or, David Cameron and George Osbourne, the country made a sensible choice at the time and in fact the number of Con. seats increased. In fact, the Labour manifesto of that time included tow EU items which were:

 

• "- Reform the EU so it "works for Britain"
• - Allow no further transfer of powers to Brussels without a referendum"

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32284159

 

In light of the above, it follows that voting patterns in the last General election had almost nothing to do with EU membership since both parties were offering very similar agendas.

Edited December 8, 2017 by simoh1490

[cmsally]

Some posts deleted as they are veering towards personal argument rather than the subject, please stay on topic.

[simoh1490]

Context is everything!

[Orac]

59 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Once again, Brexit and all it entailed was not a significant voting feature of the last general election which was won and lost on the basis of which government could best lead the country. Faced with a choice between Ed Milliband and Ed Balls or, David Cameron and George Osbourne, the country made a sensible choice at the time and in fact the number of Con. seats increased. In fact, the Labour manifesto of that time included tow EU items which were:

 

• "- Reform the EU so it "works for Britain"
• - Allow no further transfer of powers to Brussels without a referendum"

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32284159

 

In light of the above, it follows that voting patterns in the last General election had almost nothing to do with EU membership since both parties were offering very similar agendas.

 

To clarify, I assume you mean GE prior to Brexit vote and not last GE?

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Well I also served with the RAF for 25 years and I was one that voted in favour of the EEC.

 

I also voted and acted with my brain and voted for Brexit and if another referendum comes along I will do the same.

 

Was it a foolhardy notion to join the EEC which eventually turned into the EU?

 

In retrospect some 40 years later IMHO I think it was.

 

Do I think that Brexit is a foolish notion now?

 

No I don't but ask me in another 40 years and I might, or might not agree with you.

You are quite right Bill, not many on here are going see the end result but I think the history books will record it as a major error of judgement.

UK governments have a dismal track record on judgement, I am not going to repeat references to destroyed industries and lost investment opportunities. Current government performance is a fairly good indication that they have learnt little from the past.

It cannot be denied that the EU is not a perfect mechanism but overall I think the future of the UK population would be more secure under the EU than a UK government.

 

If you plan to buy your dream home and the survey shows the foundations are unstable, do you buy it anyway?

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You are quite right Bill, not many on here are going see the end result but I think the history books will record it as a major error of judgement.

UK governments have a dismal track record on judgement, I am not going to repeat references to destroyed industries and lost investment opportunities. Current government performance is a fairly good indication that they have learnt little from the past.

It cannot be denied that the EU is not a perfect mechanism but overall I think the future of the UK population would be more secure under the EU than a UK government.

 

If you plan to buy your dream home and the survey shows the foundations are unstable, do you buy it anyway?

Talking of unstable foundations, take a look at this nutter! He's talking about another constitution already:

 

https://www.ft.com/content/ec2a8982-db4a-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

 

Together with some of the content of Juncker's state of the union speech, even a blind bat can see which way the EU is heading.

 

If you want to exist in a province full of other sheep, with all your democracy and national identity finally lost, just follow these fanatics.  

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Here's another piece of the puzzle, this is what Brexit has just cost us:

 

"Theresa May has failed to get the EU to agree that Britain will retain a voice at the European court of justice in return for her concession that the Luxembourg court will retain a role in protecting citizens’ rights in the UK after Brexit.

 

Smaller member states wait years for their nationals to take senior positions in the court, and EU diplomats had been appalled at the idea of a non-member state being given special dispensation. Even the suggestion was regarded as an indication of the British government’s belief in its “exceptionalism”. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/07/brexit-uk-fails-to-retain-voice-in-european-court-of-justice

 

 

 

has it been clarified what kind of role the Lux. court will have in this?

(or is that to be worked out/specified at a later stage?)

 

weird concession to offer me thinks, thought one of the main issues re Brexit was full legal control of all UK issues, maybe she is getting desperate

[aright]

7 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Once again, Brexit and all it entailed was not a significant voting feature of the last general election which was won and lost on the basis of which government could best lead the country. Faced with a choice between Ed Milliband and Ed Balls or, David Cameron and George Osbourne, the country made a sensible choice at the time and in fact the number of Con. seats increased. In fact, the Labour manifesto of that time included tow EU items which were:

 

• "- Reform the EU so it "works for Britain"
• - Allow no further transfer of powers to Brussels without a referendum"

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32284159

 

In light of the above, it follows that voting patterns in the last General election had almost nothing to do with EU membership since both parties were offering very similar agendas.

Is this the best you can do. Publish the manifestos of political party's for the 2015 election which was before the Brexit referendum had been voted on. Brexit changed everything.( as evidenced by 773 pages of Brexit post) 

I despair  and will leave you to your own arguments.

[beautifulthailand99]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/PortalPictures/Dec2017/MayJunckerEU-xlarge.jpgA small cheer , disaster averted  , Brexit means a fudgey 'remaining after a fashion'. God cheer the pound and with grace may she sail to 50 to the Baht once more...I hope the mad Brexiteers at least could raise a Chang or too to the final point.

 

All this pain , uncertainty and self imposed pain was for naught in the end. But then it will always going to end like this - whatever the Esatblishment  were/is/are on the whole they are not collectively mad. 

 

Over on Guido Fawkes the mouth foaming Brexiteers are calling sell out ,  traitor ,  an epic betrayal. I take comfort in that....

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by beautifulthailand99

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Is this the best you can do. Publish the manifestos of political party's for the 2015 election which was before the Brexit referendum had been voted on. Brexit changed everything.( as evidenced by 773 pages of Brexit post) 

I despair  and will leave you to your own arguments.

The point of that is, Labour and Conservatives were broadly similar in their positions in respect of the EU in 2015, both parties had changes to the relationship with the EU in their manifesto's.

 

In the 2017 GE, the Conservatives had a more clear-cut picture of Brexit, Labour was only prepared to make some tweaks to the partnership.

 

BUT, you say that people voted for the Conservatives because the people were attracted to that party because of it's position on Brexit, yet, the Conservatives lost huge numbers of seats and ended up having to do a deal with the DUP to stay in power, how can that be if everyone wanted to Brexit!!!

 

Ergo, the electorate voted in 2017 for the party that would best lead the country, Brexit was by far a secondary issue, the primary issues being the economy, education, social care and above all, the impact of austerity.

 

2017 - GE: The" UK's withdrawal from the European Union was expected to be a key issue in the campaign,^[113] but featured less than expected".

 

It's all here, chapter and verse, try reading it to refresh your memory:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2017

 

[simoh1490]

10 hours ago, soalbundy said:

we shall see, the pound didn't soar before EU membership. The British civil service has many highly qualified people, unfortunately this quality isn't reflected in a majority of the politicians.

Well, a deal has now been reached and the Pound is allegedly soaring, although you wouldn't know it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/08/pound-rallies-six-month-high-against-euro/

[simoh1490]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/nigel-farage-blasts-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-as-pathetic-in-a-series-of-scathing-comments-a3713866.html

 

"While opposition politicians questioned whether the deal would satisfy hardline Brexiteers on Conservative benches, UK business leaders said they were "breathing a huge sigh of relief".

[mommysboy]

Scotland now has a fair claim for wanting the same as NI.

 

What sort of muddle has now been created?

 

Nonsensical.  There are only two solutions: all in or out.

[simoh1490]

A third solution might just be a series of stages over time, it seems almost impossible to achieve everything at once, without some lasting damage somewhere.

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Scotland now has a fair claim for wanting the same as NI.

 

What sort of muddle has now been created?

 

Nonsensical.  There are only two solutions: all in or out.

no foreplay ?

[soalbundy]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Well, a deal has now been reached and the Pound is allegedly soaring, although you wouldn't know it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/08/pound-rallies-six-month-high-against-euro/

according to Bloomberg the pound just dropped again, mind you the Euro isn't doing too well either.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Scotland now has a fair claim for wanting the same as NI.

 

What sort of muddle has now been created?

 

Nonsensical.  There are only two solutions: all in or out.

Looks like all in. TM has pledged that the entire UK will remain aligned with the Internal market and Customs Union, that is of course her pledges mean anything.

 

But the joint text she signed up to just minutes earlier pledged that the entire UK would “maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union” where they were applicable to avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland.

The communication from the Commission to the Council, issued later on Friday after the PM had returned to the UK, says EU negotiators believe it will be difficult to follow through on this commitment without keeping the UK in the single market and customs union.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-border-eu-single-market-customs-union-hard-to-reconcile-theresa-may-a8099351.html

Edited December 8, 2017 by sandyf

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-42282116

 

I'll catch up on today's news later. Just back from the office (well, a quick snifter on the way back; and a drink)

[Grouse]

16 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Here's another piece of the puzzle, this is what Brexit has just cost us:

 

"Theresa May has failed to get the EU to agree that Britain will retain a voice at the European court of justice in return for her concession that the Luxembourg court will retain a role in protecting citizens’ rights in the UK after Brexit.

 

Smaller member states wait years for their nationals to take senior positions in the court, and EU diplomats had been appalled at the idea of a non-member state being given special dispensation. Even the suggestion was regarded as an indication of the British government’s belief in its “exceptionalism”. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/07/brexit-uk-fails-to-retain-voice-in-european-court-of-justice

 

 

Over the heads of the, er, well, the fools

[Grouse]

Well, I must say it all sounds remarkably sensible. Very British! Piece of fudge anyone? It's jolly good; Thornton's.

[beautifulthailand99]

Time to get the Christmas single out ....

 

"I'm remaining of a soft Brexit  ...just like the (free trade area) one we had before " 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by beautifulthailand99

[SheungWan]

13 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Scotland now has a fair claim for wanting the same as NI.

 

What sort of muddle has now been created?

 

Nonsensical.  There are only two solutions: all in or out.

 

11 hours ago, soalbundy said:

no foreplay ?

You know how it is with some of these Hard Brexit guys. No finesse.

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

You know how it is with some of these Hard Brexit guys. No finesse.

We haven't a clue what you mean, but just to show there are no hard feelings, here is an early Christmas greeting to you and all the remoaners. Merry Christmas.

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

You know how it is with some of these Hard Brexit guys. No finesse.

Totally lacking savoir faire. Or panache ?