kennw Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 By definition a refugee is someone fleeing from a life hazardous environment. They cease to be a refugee when they reach the closest safe haven. Those trying to reach Australia usually transit via Indonesia, a "safe haven". Their on-passage was then part of the money package via the smugglers. The "protectors" of the Indonesian shores are suspect and one of the reasons of tension between Australia and Indonesia, From more than 3000 people drowning per year pre the bans, to now when no lives have been lost because the traffickers have given up should appease those concerned for the welfare of the travellers . About the conditions in the holding camps? any true refugee trueley escaping from real danger should be happy to be in a safe environment. Unless of course they expected more from their "investment" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overherebc Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 12 minutes ago, kennw said: By definition a refugee is someone fleeing from a life hazardous environment. They cease to be a refugee when they reach the closest safe haven. Those trying to reach Australia usually transit via Indonesia, a "safe haven". Their on-passage was then part of the money package via the smugglers. The "protectors" of the Indonesian shores are suspect and one of the reasons of tension between Australia and Indonesia, From more than 3000 people drowning per year pre the bans, to now when no lives have been lost because the traffickers have given up should appease those concerned for the welfare of the travellers . About the conditions in the holding camps? any true refugee trueley escaping from real danger should be happy to be in a safe environment. Unless of course they expected more from their "investment" . I reckon that sums it up 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xircal Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 11 hours ago, simple1 said: The Oz government is trying to enact legislation that will permanently ban, even a visitor visa, including those assessed as genuine refugees who are now the majority held on Naura and Manus Islands. Whilst some have accepted resettlement on the islands, the majority have not due to hostility of the local population (even white expats have to live in secure compounds in PNG) the genuine refugees are forced to live in limbo whilst they wait years, possible decades, to be resettled in a third party country at the cost of AUD500k per person per year. Yes, I was wondering about that too. Do the Aussies make a distinction between a ship and a boat I wonder. If they don't then passengers on a visiting cruise ship would be barred from ever settling in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrens54 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 15 hours ago, jaidam said: Good news, but I totally fail to understand how Australia ever could be in a position to get "asylum seekers" and "refugees" in the first place. They would have to pass through so many "safe countries" including Malaysia and Indonesia and Bangladesh and Pakistan that also share the same ideology with the "refugees". I have never heard any explanation for this. Navigating the Arafura sea on leaky boats is not as safe as living in Malay or Indo - can it all be about the free money on offer once they reach Oz? They were POURING IN until our Government got tough. Point is, Migrants are welcome but not these scum who, like thieves in the night, try to sneak in and jump the queue ahead of people who follow the law and make proper applications. Not very smart to Break the Laws of a Country where you want to live by trying to slip in through the back door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halloween Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 4 hours ago, kennw said: By definition a refugee is someone fleeing from a life hazardous environment. They cease to be a refugee when they reach the closest safe haven. Those trying to reach Australia usually transit via Indonesia, a "safe haven". Their on-passage was then part of the money package via the smugglers. The "protectors" of the Indonesian shores are suspect and one of the reasons of tension between Australia and Indonesia, From more than 3000 people drowning per year pre the bans, to now when no lives have been lost because the traffickers have given up should appease those concerned for the welfare of the travellers . About the conditions in the holding camps? any true refugee trueley escaping from real danger should be happy to be in a safe environment. Unless of course they expected more from their "investment" . Yesterday on the ABC, Julie Bishop claimed the TOTAL lost at sea was around 1200. Either she or you have a wrong figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 3 hours ago, jaidam said: True citizens, and the only people that deserve to vote are taxpayers. Non taxpayers, or spongers, contribute nothing so deserve no rights. A simple solution to the upside down world of modern times. Giving lazy rural communities free handouts such as housing, iphones, the latest 4 wheel drive and more cash and benefits the more kids they have was always going to be a recipe for disaster. That they offer no thanks to the long suffering taxpayer is no surprise. I'm quite sure back when they hunted with a boomerang they felt more self worth and pride. No wonder NAfricans are so keen to get to Oz(and so reluctant to stay in safe countries along the route). An as Australian it's interesting to observe claims of Indigenous welfare that I have previously been unaware, would you be so kind to provide links to Oz government web sites demonstrating that a component of their welfare package individuals get free mobile phones, no cost 4 wheel drive vehicles and so on. Perhaps you can document the number of North Africans arriving by boat to claim asylum. For the meantime official government statistics may assist in your & others comprehension e.g.... Australia's refugee population: A statistical snapshot of 2013-14 http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/FlagPost/2014/November/Refugee_population_2013-14 As a reminder an additional link which appears not to have been read. https://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/immigration-detention-statistics-31-aug-2016.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodney earl Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 GREAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4MyEgo Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 20 hours ago, F4UCorsair said: Your last para Is right on the money, and those ftom middle eastern countries have made an art form of It. Australia has enough problems without Introducing more. The Conservatives have balls, the left, labor and greens are as weak as pi$$. I totally agree with one reporter on channel 9 come to think of her, stop all Muslim's entering Australia for now, until the ISIS cells can be stopped, this idiotic Sharia law which is apparently part of Islam, but apparently not hardcore as most Muslim's stay right away from it and stick their main religion "Islam", as for the boat people, I think they are a less of a threat, but then again, no one should ever have access to Australian shores unless they join the que, humanitarian or not, what about those other poor bastards who have been waiting in ques for years, fair suck of the sav, oy ! Australia must be the only country in the world that throws money at refugees and the like, but fails to look after its own, not talking about CentreLink either, talking about X-pats who have decided the grass is greener over here as others do and after 183 days out of the country they wipe your right to Medicare, the old age pension unless you return 2 years prior to the old age pension age and prove you are there to live, not just to get the pension, but if your a refugee or someone from a humanitarian background accessing Australia, they will throw money at you, and they haven't worked 40 years paying taxes. Do I sound like I have a chip on my shoulder, shit yeh I do, lucky country my ass, well for some 555, and knowing me, I don't need the OAP, but when the time comes in 8-10 years and if legislation hasn't changed, I might just go back for two years to get the FKR !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4MyEgo Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 4 hours ago, simple1 said: An as Australian it's interesting to observe claims of Indigenous welfare that I have previously been unaware, would you be so kind to provide links to Oz government web sites demonstrating that a component of their welfare package individuals get free mobile phones, no cost 4 wheel drive vehicles and so on. Perhaps you can document the number of North Africans arriving by boat to claim asylum. For the meantime official government statistics may assist in your & others comprehension e.g.... Australia's refugee population: A statistical snapshot of 2013-14 http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/FlagPost/2014/November/Refugee_population_2013-14 As a reminder an additional link which appears not to have been read. https://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/immigration-detention-statistics-31-aug-2016.pdf It would be good for the Australian government to have some bigger balls, and come up with an idea that provides temporary visas for all of these people, e.g. temporary visas meaning, you cannot apply for residency or citizenship, and as soon as your countries problems are sorted, you can go straight back, sorted, Australia cannot accommodate anymore people, it has to look after its own, most of who haven't worked a bloody day in their lives 555 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Bull Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I wish Canada could borrow Turnbull for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRRR Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 In most cases if we didnt participate in the wars that displaced them in the first place i would agree with keeping them out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrens54 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 22 hours ago, halloween said: Yesterday on the ABC, Julie Bishop claimed the TOTAL lost at sea was around 1200. Either she or you have a wrong figure. Dear "halloween" Regardless of WHICH Figure is correct, the point is.. NO ONE has drowned for a long time because they understand the deal about being denied entry to Australia if they attempt to BREAK our Laws and sneak in through the back door. Obey the LAW of the Country, you'll likely be welcomed. Break the Law and you'll be tossed out.. pretty simple really, even YOU should be able to grasp the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrens54 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 14 hours ago, The Old Bull said: I wish Canada could borrow Turnbull for a while. Sadly, your Leftie Bleeding Heart PM is going to put Canada into the same situation Germany is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halloween Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Torrens54 said: Dear "halloween" Regardless of WHICH Figure is correct, the point is.. NO ONE has drowned for a long time because they understand the deal about being denied entry to Australia if they attempt to BREAK our Laws and sneak in through the back door. Obey the LAW of the Country, you'll likely be welcomed. Break the Law and you'll be tossed out.. pretty simple really, even YOU should be able to grasp the concept. You make a very wrong assumption regarding my attitude to illegal immigration. I am 100% supportive of the proposed ban, both for those alleged refugees already arrived and the reported 14,000 waiting in Indonesia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 16 hours ago, 4MyEgo said: ... as soon as your countries problems are sorted, you can go straight back Can you provide us with a case study of a country from which refugees have fled that has sorted out its problems sufficiently so that its refugees can safely return? Just one will do, but half-a-dozen would be useful so that we have some sort of benchmark for comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Many, if not most, of the refugees who fled to other countries in Europe during the war in the former Yugoslavia have been able to return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Credo said: Many, if not most, of the refugees who fled to other countries in Europe during the war in the former Yugoslavia have been able to return. Case study? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4MyEgo Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 8 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said: Can you provide us with a case study of a country from which refugees have fled that has sorted out its problems sufficiently so that its refugees can safely return? Just one will do, but half-a-dozen would be useful so that we have some sort of benchmark for comparison Now that would be up to America and the rest who always invade their countries to put in their democratically selected puppets, after all, how else would they and the big bankers make money ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Just now, 4MyEgo said: Now that would be up to America and the rest who always invade their countries to put in their democratically selected puppets, after all, how else would they and the big bankers make money ? Any chance of translating that into English so it answers the case-study question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4MyEgo Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 8 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said: Any chance of translating that into English so it answers the case-study question? Are you serious, how about you go to this site and have a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 1 hour ago, SaintLouisBlues said: Case study? Do a Google search "case study returned refugees" there are a few examples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 1 minute ago, simple1 said: Do a Google search "case study returned refugees" there are a few examples Yes, the list starts with Afghanistan. Hardly worth continuing after that triumph of refugee resettlement is it? The sort of place we all want to go to on our summer vacation. But then, oh look, Chad and Burundi. Not exactly exemplars of refugees fleeing to Western countries and then being satisfactorily re-settled back in the country from which they fled, which was the original assertion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halloween Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 47 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said: Yes, the list starts with Afghanistan. Hardly worth continuing after that triumph of refugee resettlement is it? The sort of place we all want to go to on our summer vacation. But then, oh look, Chad and Burundi. Not exactly exemplars of refugees fleeing to Western countries and then being satisfactorily re-settled back in the country from which they fled, which was the original assertion So just how good does a country NEED to be before we send unwelcome visitors home? Do we hae to keep giving them handouts until their country is as good as ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, halloween said: So just how good does a country NEED to be before we send unwelcome visitors home? Do we hae to keep giving them handouts until their country is as good as ours? I was merely questioning the assertion that it's OK to let people stay until their country has resolved the issues that first made them refugees and then they can go back. I don't believe there are any robust examples of such a thing. The question you're asking now is an entirely different one. I think you may find the answers you seek here - http://www.unhcr.org/en-au/1951-refugee-convention.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 17 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said: Case study? There are a lot of sources of information, but as of 2011 3/4 of the refugees had returned. There remain a lot of displaced people, but many remain displaced within the former Yugoslavia. The point is, you asked for a country and one has been given. I don't know that an on-going discussion of it is really relevant to this thread, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 1 minute ago, Credo said: The point is, you asked for a country and one has been given. I don't know that an on-going discussion of it is really relevant to this thread, though. The original post to which I responded stated that as an Australian he'd be happy to see refugees stay in his country until they could return home. Apart from Yugoslavia are there any other successful refugee-return programmes that Australia has participated in? Or is this the one-off that's "the exception that proves the rule"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 26 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said: The original post to which I responded stated that as an Australian he'd be happy to see refugees stay in his country until they could return home. Apart from Yugoslavia are there any other successful refugee-return programmes that Australia has participated in? Or is this the one-off that's "the exception that proves the rule"? I think what you are getting at is allowing people into the country on a temporary basis until the situation in the home country makes return possible. Most Western Countries that accept refugees do with the understanding that they will stay. In the case of Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, there is no way to predict when those countries will be 'safe', and even less of a way of knowing for whom they will be safe. Most Western Countries don't have the type of visas that would allow for indefinite stays followed by return to their country of origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpoint Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 18 hours ago, halloween said: So just how good does a country NEED to be before we send unwelcome visitors home? Do we hae to keep giving them handouts until their country is as good as ours? Sadly, in a number of cases, we would need to keep doing so until they've dragged our countries down to the level of theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLouisBlues Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, ballpoint said: Sadly, in a number of cases, we would need to keep doing so until they've dragged our countries down to the level of theirs. All you have to do is vote in a government that will cease being a signatory to the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees. It's not that hard. Devote your energies towards a political party that has that as its main aim. I thought that's what Australia's One Nation Party was for. After all, my country, the USA, left another UN body, the International Court of Justice, in 1986 because it kept making decisions with which the USA did not agree. There's a precedent there. Just get off your backsides and stop whining - or making up fantasy scenarios like "refugee return" which have never been proven to work in almost all cases. Edited November 2, 2016 by SaintLouisBlues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple1 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 For those who are motivated to invest the time the URL below provides a link to an Oz government discussion paper of current UN Convention of Refugees, applicability in today's world & whether Australia should legally withdraw from the Convention A component of the conclusion talks to a question which is constantly raised regarding "safe countries" for asylum seekers trying to reach Australia which hopefully will put an end to posts based upon ignorance of law. "the problem with the Convention can also be summarised in simpler terms, of what it doesn't include. It doesn't confer any right of assistance on refugees unless and until they reach a signatory country" http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp0001/01RP05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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